TNR I do the same as you. But read my below comment and try andsee it for what it is. Both sides are to blame here.

Fair play. It’s about time ALL workers started pulling together.

People have been making that point since the crisis started but it seems that it all depends on how you define “pulling together”. We’re trying to tax/borrow our way out of a 20 billion euro per year deficit. Basic economics tells you that won’t work.

Oh yeah. wanted to add that maybe teachers are not the best focal point – but your very vocal unions keep putting you in the public eye as a target. Not to mention the number of teachers in the Dail.

Well said! As a teacher myself I find it very confusing to be told by those in the private sector that its the Croke Park agreement that is at the root of the problem. Could I respectfully remind those in the private sector to remind us again who started the problem…the private sector.

You mean the banking system and government regulation, or lack thereof. Right Dave?

Or that the government spent every penny of what the private sector generated on itself ie: the public sector, pay in the public sector rose 100% in 10 years, in Germany 15%. the party is over the public sector keeps partying

@ Dave janey Mack it’s been going on since 2008 and you still think it was the private sector lol.

It was clearly down to a government agenda and pure lack of regulation that caused the mess we are in.

It was not down to any frontline staff but down to the mid and top level.

Cop on.

Well said, Dave!

It wasn’t the private sector that caused the recession, it was the government. If you’re blaming the private sector for the economic crisis, you’re blaming capitalism. And I’d love you to suggest an alternative.

@Dave.

Read your own post, you claim salaries dropped 20 -25%. I referred to this below.

You are on a hair trigger accusing others of lying, I was challenging your own claims. It seems you are confused.

Does this clarify matters.

That issue was fully addressed further down the page.

Goodbye troll.

@Dave This is a quote from you.

“I specifically mentioned NET pay. I neither confused nor lied about anything. I’d appreciate you at least reading what I write before trolling.”

Is there any limit to your intellectual dishonesty and mud slinging?

Good god! What’s the problem? My net salary is down 24%. This is a fact. Get over it and stop lying to make out you’re more aware of what is written on my pay packet than me.

With this amount of constant reform they must be approaching perfection by now eh? What a pity the graduates of our schools seem to be such astounding idiots. It must be the materials that ye have to work with.

How are they misleading? They are the current pay scales

Well for the disaffected there us always a career in the parliament advising the private sector about ‘jobs’ and such like. Odd isn’t it that so few senior techies can find the time for politics.

Salary makes up such a big percentage because we have been chronically underspending on education as a percentage of GDP for years. Salarys arent the issue. It’s the fact that the FF govts never invested properly in resources or buildings to keep their spend down, so they could invest in tax breaks for building.it completely skews the numbers.

Now you’re giving me a laugh. All the spending increases went into salaries and pensions. Documented fact.

Between 2001 – 2009 there was a 56% increase in salaries.

Please give a source for this. Simply not true once again.

http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3746,en_2649_39263238_48634114_1_1_1_1,00.html

Pretty sure it’s in the OECD report. It’s a sad tale for Ireland of increasing investment with declining results.

Haven’t seen that anywhere in the report at all. Can you give an exact place.

There was a bump in special needs teachers and SNAs over those years as schools became obliged to take SEN children into mainstream classes. It might amount for a bump in overall spend on wages across the sector but it’s hardly individual teachers wages going up by that percentage. That’s just nonsense.

@Dave

The figure is correct, as usual you are ignorant of the facts.

I suggest you ask your union, they will have all the figures. In the meantime if wish to claim it is incorrect, please back that up.
Inform yourself before taking a position.

As regards your use of GDP, this again shows your willingnes to misuse statistics. GNP would be a better comparison…..otherwise our low corporation tax rate will skew all the figures.

As someone who worked in education throughout those wears I am not ignorant of my own salary.

And you still haven’t backed up your imaginary numbers. Pathetic.

@Dave

The spend on staff compensation in 2001 was 2496 million (primary & secondary)
The spend on staff compensation in 2008 was 5214 million (primary & secondary)

This is an 108.89% increase in the amount spent on compensation. This includes increments, allowances, pensions, additional bonuses, unvouched expenses, additional supervision payments, etc etc etc…..

Dave these are the facts, direct from the OECD Stat extracts, this is public information available to all.

Your petty attempts at insults cannot disguise the reality…….

Now that you know the figures, what was your objection? Which part was untrue?

Link to these numbers please.

This is my third time asking.

@Dave

The website is http://stats.oecd.org. This is the OECD Database.

It is easy to mine data, give it a go before making unsupportable claims.
Here is the link to my exact query: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/8001089/img/8001089.png

As I said this is all public information, easily found, this removes any doubt as to my facts. I doubt you were unaware of this.

Now, how about you? Can you link to anything at all??? for any of your claims at all??

Claims of 24% salary decrease = rubbish. Provide link.
Claims of 24% take home reduction = rubbish. Provide figures and links.
Claims of pension contributions being more than return = rubbish. Provide links.

By your own measures you fall well short, and you teach our kids maths?

Last post. I’m finished listening to your moronic crap. you obviously have an axe to grind and have no interest in the truth.

Salaries did not increase by that amount. Fact.

My take home pay has dropped by 24%. Fact.

These are borne out my my payslips and the payslips of every other teacher in the country, except for those who are new entrants, who are paid even less.

In terms of spending increasing, I explained earlier that there was an increase in the amounts of SEN teachers, SNAs and EAL teachers during this time due to changes in legislation. Add the NEPS service, additional DoED staff needed, and the legal costs incurred during this time surrounding claims for SEN children and you can see more clearly where the money went. There was also an huge increase in the numbers of children in schools, due to a baby boom here and a huge influx of migrant workers.

Simple maths: More staff needed, more people needing to be paid.

By your Maths teachers were being paid 13K in 2001. That says it all.

Goodbye Troll!

Finally your last post.

Characterized by your typical unsupported claims, once again failing to provide figures to support 24%. (perhaps you are including cancelled increases? that would match your pattern of lies).

The figures I provided are from the OECD and only cover compensation for educational staff, and increased by 108% or 2718 Million.
Legel costs are not included….it is specific to staff payments….understand?

As regards your 13k figure…….that is obviously the result of your own maths……once again incompetent !!!

Here is the correct calculation:
Current average 2009 = €57,000
(57000 / 156) * 100 = €36538 = average in 2001 before 56% increase !!!

Goodbye ignorant offensive Dave !!!

@Dave Tobin: take off the blindfold and look at the report.

nope…. regrettably you are an agressive unionist. And the sooner your higherarchy start talking the better for us all.

Did you ever hear the fable of the scorpion and the frog? I’ll spare you the details, but if you look it up you might realise why the public sector is implicated in the crisis.

And you’ve got this the wrong way around. It’s not a matter of “taking money of public servants”.

The hard task we’ve set ourselves is to somehow come up with the 20 billion needed to keep paying them.

Not to mention the other tricky little fact: the public sector deficit was created because the public sector decided to fund salaries and day to day expenses out of windfall property taxes (see under “benchmarking”)

The vast majority of newly qualified teachers have no hope of work. A huge percentage have emigrated. Emigration has hit everyone.

Doctors, nurses and lab staff have emigrated. They re public sector.

I think he meant from the public sector, newly qualified H.Dip holders are not public sector until they are employed.

Also same for nurses, that said there has always been an attraction from the states and middle eastern countries for irish medical staff to earn more. Has the numbers moving from within the public sector medical sector increased?

How many private company’s would BORROW money to pay over the average wages for staff they don’t need! How long do you think they would last!

@hellogoogletracking: HDip is secondary teaching. It seems basic facts elude you once again.

@Dave.

I am fully aware of that, Niall’s post asked about public vs private emigration.

Seems you missed the point again.

I didn’t. I specifically mentioned that it’s a blight on all workers as have others in this thread. Please read others comments.

No Dave it’s not a “blight on all workers”. You’re talking about prospective new entrants to the profession emigrating because of a job freeze. The comparison is with people who’ve lost an existing job and who will never work in Ireland again. How many from the public sector have lost their existing jobs?

A lot of Public sector medical workers are moving to the private sector as it pays more.

A huge amount. In our school we’ve lost about 2-3 per year and we didn’t have it bad compared to most. These were people with existing jobs. The myth that everyone in the public service is permanent is simply not true. Practically all sub and temp jobs are gone. These are real jobs lost by real people who have no other jobs to go to in Ireland.

@censored we had 2 emigrated to Canada last year, from a staff of 15 and there’s another going this year. Just going by the evidence in front of me I’d say you were wrong.

The public sector has a terrible record with regard to how it treats temporary workers, including teachers. That’s an abuse which should be stopped. I’d like to see teacher’s unions standing up for that.

So were these workers that you mention permanent workers or temporary?

And if not, did they choose to leave their jobs voluntarily?

I understand it feels like you’re losing colleagues and you’re facing hard times. That said, I can’t help but think there’s more to the story just based on my own observation. The medical sector is another one that’s full of abuse – you get treated terribly until you’re a consultant. Then you perpetuate the system.

So

It’s not a lie. You’re welcome to look at my payslip. I’m just over 24% down in my net pay, as is my wife.

Read my post Dave.

Gross pay is your salary, net pay is after deductions. You statement that your salary is down 20 – 25% is a lie.

Salary is total before tax and deductions. Has this decreased 20-25%…..answer NO

Idiot

It’s not a lie. Mine is down the same amount. And the pension levy is not public servants paying more into our own pensions. We will never get that money back.

Hi Sara,

Salary (Gross pay) is NOT down 20-25%…..end of debate. If you want to challenge that fact, I would be very interested in how you do it.

Deliberately confusing terms in an attempt to strengthen an argument is lying, disingenuous and disgraceful.
It is clear propaganda, most likely union generated, twisting figures and lying.

When you are paid your pension (which will be higher than any contributions you make) then you get your money back (surely you can understand that?)

Calling someone an idiot when you cannot understand their point and being completely wrong is ironic.

Personal attacks are unnecessary, play the ball not the man.

I didn’t use the word salary. Stop putting words in my mouth. Dave said he & his wife are down 24% of their NET pay. I said I am down the same. Fact.
It is not “end of debate”. Who do you think you are? The debate is far from over, regardless of whether you, in all your arrogance, want it to be over. You are accusing people who actually know what they are talking about of lying. I find that pretty ironic.

Sara,

I think you are confused, your posted “It is not a lie” what did you think you were referring too?

Let me explain…..my accusation of lying was directed at Dave who had claimed his Salary was down 20 – 20%….feel free to read his posts.

Quote “Reform that’s getting teachers doing an extra weeks work per year at a time when their salary is dropping by 20% to 25%”

He then denied he lied by confusing net and gross, I pointed that out.

You then backed him up………obviously you didn’t understand what you were backing up, and you claimed I was the idiot?
The debate over Salary being down 20 – 25% is over….it is not.

Consider the math:
If Salary was down 24%…….then add pension contrib 7%, then add pay cut 6%, then add levies, additional taxes etc…
Net would be down approx 40+%……

Now do you understand my point?

New entrants to teaching are now in the position of investing more in their pension than they will receive from it. No amount of bs from you will change facts.

The simple truth here is that the public service is carrying the like of you on our back at a time when private sector wages rise by 1.6% last year. Teachers are 22% underpaid compared to other professions of equal degree qualification and working year in this country. And they are doing this while Reforming and doing significantly more for less.

Th public service is making huge changes for the better for our country in one of the darkest times in our history. It’s about time pathetic Internet trolls like you stepped up to the plate and did the same.

I specifically mentioned NET pay. I neither confused nor lied about anything. I’d appreciate you at least reading what I write before trolling.

Don’t be so patronising. You clearly don’t have the knowledge to back it up. I have read all of the posts.
The cut to my pay was 13%, not 6%. In case you ever feel like checking your facts, the pay cuts announced in the 2009 budget depended on salary earned ie some people lost 5%, others lost 7%, others lost more. Do you understand? This is MY salary I am talking about. I don’t care what you say/think/refuse to debate. I know how much money I have lost. As does Dave. He is right. You’re nothing but a troll.

Dave,

We are all making huge changes, also I would be very skeptical that your maths are correct on the pensions.

Bear in mind that the public sector is funded entirely from taxes collected from the private sector. (Tax paid by public servants simply returns some tax that was paid to them) The tax take from the private sector has collapsed (and yes i am referring to income tax).
Once you understand that, then your point of view that you are carrying anyone on your back should change. The amount of taxation I am paying is staggering…..and the level of service returned is rubbish. 80% of educational spending goes on salaries and pensions !!!!! and then you complain that there is no money left for capital spending…..it is clear why.

Your hostile attitude to criticism is part of the problem, it is engrained in the culture of the Public service.

Teachers are absolutely critical to the country, and are required, but the system is in need of complete reform and rebuilding. The vested interests should not be running the show through Croke Park.

It’s hard to give you any credence when you claim only private sector workers pay income tax and use public services. I work, earn my wage and pay my taxes. To claim otherwise is untrue and offensive to every public service worker in the country.

Your taxes didn’t pay for everything in the boom. It’s not income taxes that have seen the biggest loss but construction and property related taxes. That’s what paid for a huge amount then. Our tax system was built on sand and we’re all suffering for it now.

@Dave.

It is a simple economic fact.

Taxes are collected from the private sector, as only the private sector can generate money from profits and productivity. The total is the tax pot.

When this is then spent on public wage bills, a portion is recovered (i.e. tax paid by public servants) but this is just a slight of hand. In fact it is far more costly than just paying net, it does not contribute to collected taxes. It just reduces the spending of the collected taxes. So yes, paying taxes is a illusion for public sector workers, you simply take less tax.

I specified income taxes, because it is now those taxes pretty much paying for everything (excluding huge borrowings). I can show you my tax bill to confirm, I am contributing a huge amount yearly. How many people like me do you think it takes to pay one teachers pension? it would shock you….

That is what infuriates me………..everyone is suffering, but we have to take this opportunity to reform the public service. It became bloated, and greedy, and us middle income taxpayers cannot pay for it all anymore. And are not prepared to.

Proper reform shouldn’t mean those at the entry levels suffering more as it is now, or those young teachers getting disillusioned. It would mean redistribution, and sensible pay scales and increments etc…..

I love it when the public sector workers fail to understand where the money to pay their (taxable) salaries comes from … but I worry when it appears to be teachers failing to comprehend it. Wow.

“If our tax-raising capacity has been permanently and significantly reduced, isn’t it time that state spending was permanently and significantly reduced too? Government receipts (including social insurance) are expected to be around €50 billion this year, down 17% from their level in 2007. Gross government spending is expected to be €70 billion, up 12% from its 2007 level (with only half of that increase due to increased social spending following increased unemployment). Our national solvency is being held hostage by a public sector which has yet to adjust to Ireland’s permanently reduced circumstances.”
Cormac Lucey

If she’s earning that money she isn’t a primary school teacher.

Then get off your arse, form a union and fight for your pension rights just like our unions did for us!!!

Name says it all

Care to elaborate begrudgy, or is it just more ill-thought-out populist soundbites?

Yes. The cuts did not go far enough. The average public sector worker earns around 900 euro per week compared to around 600 for private sector. Ireland is in the sh.. . Unions need to get real and look at state of economy. Deals made a few years ago should not hold the same weight as now as everything has changed for the worse.

Well said Mr B. Times change and we ALL need to change with them. Stop protecting the elite and btw “hey leave those teachers alone!!”

it’s those involved in teaching who are not in classes that are the issue – their bosses.

Begrudgy, fair enough, statistically the average public sector worker earns more than the average private sector worker, however:
1) The average public sector worker is also more highly qualified than the average private sector worker.
2) Average public sector pay calculations also include the very high salaries of top managers which skews the figure upwards for most frontline workers. In contrast, top director’s pay is usually omitted from average private sector pay calculations.

The Croke Park Agreement is working well – exactly as it was intended in fact – and has actually delivered significant cost savings for the exchequer, however you can hardly be blamed for not realising this as it has received almost zero coverage in the (largely private sector) media.

@mattoid: I’ve heard the educational disparity mentioned a good few times, but I always wondered why people seemed to think it was a good thing.

No insult intended here ok, so don’t fly off the handle: the public sector, education etc creates the conditions for wealth generation, which hopefully benefits all of us. However, it’s the private sector that directly brings in the money we need. Right?

So if the public sector is better educated, and qualified (for the jobs they’re actually doing I assume?) then is that not a HUGE problem?

@censored, I can’t really understand the point you’re making here? The fact is that most public sector roles require a higher level of education and training in order to carry out the job well (or at all) eg. doctors, teachers, planners etc..
The nature of the public sector means that there is very little requirement for manual labour or minimum wage jobs – if required at all these can (and generally should) be contracted out to private companies (no offence intended to this group of workers).

@Begrudgery – So after we tear up Croke Park & lash the Public Sector workers with yet more pay cuts what will we do when frontline staff strike & the whole Country goes to sh1te!?? As Matoid says, the deal is making the required savings!! Why tear it up!??

“If our tax-raising capacity has been permanently and significantly reduced, isn’t it time that state spending was permanently and significantly reduced too? Government receipts (including social insurance) are expected to be around €50 billion this year, down 17% from their level in 2007. Gross government spending is expected to be €70 billion, up 12% from its 2007 level (with only half of that increase due to increased social spending following increased unemployment). Our national solvency is being held hostage by a public sector which has yet to adjust to Ireland’s permanently reduced circumstances. ”
Cormac Lucey

@mattoid: it’s like a having a world class soccer coach, but a bunch of players who can’t kick the ball.

Does that help? It’s the private sector that generates the income. Yes, we need a good public sector to provide support, education, health and all the other important services. That said, if the private sector is poorly educated and poorly qualified then how will it compete with the rest of the world to bring in the income that we all depend on?

That is a barefaced lie. They are accountable. They are accountable to the principall, board of management (which has at least one parent on it) and to the Dept of Education inspectors.

Perhaps we should look at making parents accountable for their children rather than incompetents blaming teachers for their woes.

The current system is not working, as shown by the lack of dismissals. It is not realistic to expect that there are and have been no bad teachers.

There needs to be a new system to inspect and keep teachers focused, it is far too comfortable and we need independent enforcement of standands from our public servants.

I know in my daughter’s secondary school of at least three teachers who are completely incompetent and should have been sacked years ago. One didn’t turn up for a single lesson all year even though she was never sick at those time she just couldn’t be bothered to! Yet the school registration fees (free education my ar*e) have go up to €180 per year so they can have plasma tv’s in the halls but no books at all in the library. As far as I am aware it is still almost impossible to fire a teacher no matter how bad they are. Some teachers are brilliant but sadly they are a minority in my experience at secondary level.

@jay – what was the reaction when you complained to the school or management board about these incompetent teachers?

Teachers are accountable. To say other is total nonsense. The first port of call is the teacher. Then the Principal and failing that the Board of Management. If after all that , its still not acceptable then the Department of Education inspectorate is there. It would be very interesting to find out what criteria you judge teachers by. By making a comment like “the good were in the minority” is very insulting. I have taught for 34 years and have seen at first hand the dedication of vast majority of teachers I have had the pleasure to work with. Sadly its a very small number of parents take the time to even write a thank you note when the Leaving results come in. If the students do badly, its always the teachers fault. If the students do well its only the student that gets the credit!

I’m not misinformed, please don’t be so patronising. I personally know members of the public sector that are better off now than they ever have been when you take the cost of living into consideration.

Truth is, the Croke Park agreement is unsustainable. That’s all that really matters now.

Abby 100% agree on all you points. Its a shame the union’s cant see that and the goverment only know how to go about things in 1 way.

You clearly are misinformed, Abby.

Abby, when you’re in a hole, stop digging….

The INTO is the national teachers as in primary teachers , and primary school kids should not have ”free” classes !

Is one teacher really a representative sample? Cos I’m pretty sure you get people who are shit at their job no matter what it is…

I wouldn’t say highly educated. A college degree is the new Leaving Cert in terms of worth to employers, most people do Masters Degrees these days.

I’m a nurse in the public sector. I have a diploma, degree, HDip, Grad Dip, MSc and am working on PhD. Funded by myself, before anyone comments. A lot of public sector workers are very highly educated, Abby. You really need to check your facts and stop making uneducated, unsupported generalisations.

Are politicians not supposed to be highly educated public sector workers, need anybody say more.

Well Ben I’ve to work tomorrow too but you don’t hear me complaining….. Good luck to teachers they have holidays but we had the choice to go into the profession and didn’t. Now people whinge and moan. We made our beds……………

This already happens in primary schools! All staff meeting take place after school.

Not where our kids go to primary school. Only a few weeks ago they closed our school 10 mins early for a meeting. 10 mins, really? It’s nonsense.

If that’s true speak to the principal or BOM. It’s not supposed to happen. You’re right to be annoyed if that’s the case. The only time teaching time can be cut short is for PT meetings days to accommodate parents who need to meet early.

We spoke to the principal and he was able to explain the use of ‘in’ hours and ‘out’ hours.

Thankfully, both of us work, but school gives short notice for these meetings. Drives us cracked.

Don’t blame the teachers, I blame the system

Foolish. No meetings take place during school hours. Ignorant.

Trust me. They happen in our primary school.

And when do your work meetings take place?? Is it in the normal working hours or do you get overtime fir your meetings???

Alan: There was a provision for a half-in/half-out for meetings but that’s gone at leastt 18 months now. If you’re not getting anywhere with he principal you should contact the local Ðept of Ed inspector and query them on it. The circulars issued have been poor and contradictory so I could see how there might be confusion but it really shouldn’t be happening at this stage.

If you’re not sure what the Croke Park hours are being used for you should query the principal, the BOM, or your parents association. Most schools communicate what they use them for. Te general uses are inservice provided by post holders in the school, planning and reporting, staff meeting and other ups killing such as first aid, etc. Schools should be informing parents about this (generally through the school newsletter) so you should feel free to ask. There is a huge amount of in-school ups killing going on in Primary Schools as a result of the Croke Park agreement so progress is being made even if you’re not hearing about it.

I get no overtime and most days I work over my hours to get the work done. But I’m ok with it. Has to be done.

@Bernadette:Tthe half-in/half-out model was used up until about 18 months ago. Prefiously it was all in
-school time (which ended at least a decade ago). All meetings with the exception of PT meetings take place solely outside of school hours now.PT meetings are done like this to accommodate parents schedules as much as possible. Teachers do not receive overtime for anything. It simply isn’t part of our pay. Teachers have taken this extra work outside of school as part of two paycuts so it’s pretty hard to argue its value for money.

@Alan: just like 99% of teachers.

@Dave that’s cool. I’m all for equality, I know teachers work damn hard, many don’t get the recognition, many are poorly paid, many put in the hours.

I just don’t want my kid’s education cut for any length to accommodate meetings that you say should no longer be in classroom hours.

I’m sure we will follow up, but of course fear retribution for being the one who shakes the tree

@ Lar using the words foolish and ignorant in this instance shows you are exactly both! How can you be 100% sure “no meetings take place during working hours”? You can you confirm this in all schools? You’ve checked everyone I presume? If you have you’ll find your wrong.

@Alan: I hope you do follow up and feet the issue sorted. Hopefully it’s just a mix up. Nice debating this with you. You’re making a lot more sense than most here!

@Lar Hayden: looks like you failed to educate us all “correctly” if you’re labelling people foolish and ignorant for believing the evidence in front of them.

I forgot about this one. Our primary school finished an hour early recently so the local priest could take out ALL the teachers for dinner to celebrate the confirmation class making their confirmation. So not just the confirmation class teachers but the whole school. It’s tradition apparently, but with 3 days notice given to make alternate arrangements for us it left a bad taste.
This can’t be in Croke Park. Some schools could be lumping anything in to “Croke Park”

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha a man who doesn’t even understand where his pay comes from. Please do put your talent to productive work, you never know, it could save the country.

Our public service is not the highest paid in the EU. An absolute lie.

The Croke Park deal is the envy of the other countries in Europe. Our Public Service has had two savage pay cuts, completely revamped how they work, increased productivity,mincreased working hours, and had no industrial action.

How ISN’T it working?

I work in a lab and since we implemented change, we have saved the HSE €7 million while working longer hours for less money. we have no back log of work either so tell me how thats not beneficial to the country?

It’s the envy of Europe’s public sector!

@ Dave and Ciara. So you’ve had cuts and have undergone changes to improve your productivity – well done that is fantastic I tip my hat to you both.

is that it? No more belt tightening or efforts to increase efficiency to cut costs within your sectors while our country is in the pan? Believe me it is never a one off effort in the private sector it is part of everyday work to work harder for less, to think of innovative ways to increase productivity to retain ones job. With the hope to avoid any further base pay cuts or god forbid a miracle increase (the latter hasn’t happened for most since 2005).

Don’t get me wrong I commend your work and your service to the public. You both work in vital areas that society need to survive and develop. I do believe people like you deserve to be protected in bad times and to be paid handsomely in good. However we are in the preverbal sh*ts I can’t help but think you are wresting on your laurels think we’ve already done our part no more! When really that should only be the start for us all if we are ever going to return to better times.

No point getting mental about the CPA. It’s only being funded by massive levels of borrowing. At some point the borrowing will be slashed, so unless theres a massive export boom there just won’t be money to pay for the CPA.

So what do you want us to do Ciaran? Should we let people go? If we did there’d be a back log of work, patients would suffer. I earn €40k a year and my net pay is less than €2k a month, not the crazy salary everyone assumes we earn. Id also earn more in the private sector, infact I could negotiate a salary in the private sector and do fewer hours!

@ Ciara: I dont want to tell you what to do in fairness. Times are very hard and are getting harder. Like I said it just seems like your position is you can’t do anything more and that’s it?

While I know and understand the plight of heavy taxation on your salary it is a pain we all share. But in the work place (not just yours) I am of the opinion we should always be looking for new and better ways to do things. To either improve the service we are hired to provide or to cut costs where possible. To say that neither of these things are possible in any workplace can’t be true. If an individual or team or department can do these thing well then they should be rewarded financially or through other perks like free training etc.

If we leave it up to the powers that be unfortunately the first thing they look at is head count and as you rightfully say that will impact negatively on backlogs and people’s health. For me that would be stimulus enough to try to work smarter. However this mentality usually applies to the private sector where people have no job security or protection by unions.

So I dunno you’re very defensive when all I’m trying to suggest is everyone needs to work smarter. To say you can’t do that can’t be true. Resting on laurels and saying no to positive change keeps the stigma attached that portrays public sector workers as lazy over paid under worked staff who are stubborn at that behest of Joe public. Now I know this isn’t true at all for the majority of highly trained and skilled people like yourself. Change like this needs to come from the top and they need to lead by example.

Anyways I’m starting to ramble and rant lol I didn’t mean offense.

You didnt offend me at all! I love a good argument!!

I dont see where or how we could do anymore to be honest. We have cut costs, increased cover in work, longer work day. I dont know where we could improve further.
Like everyone else, I have had to cancel my health insurance, some have had to get rid of cars, my own car is 15, some of my collegues are in negative equity, I couldnt pay my bin charge till the 28th of March, trying to save on energy bills by not heating the house. Im taking my first holiday since 2005 this year! We do our bit just like everyone else.

I wonder where the money to pay public sector salaries comes from. Grows on trees, does it?

As much as you appear to hate and patronise “the private sector” that is the only part of the economy which actually generates any wealth. Without the private sector where would you be?

(and don’t start with the “public sector pay taxes too” rant. Yes they do, on earnings that come from taxes)

If I did my current job in a private hospital would you be happier? Afterall that would be generating wealth but then everyone would need to get private health insurance so that would cost even more in the long run.

Yes Ciara, I would. I also believe that you’d probably be happier too.

We already have private health insurance (VHI). It costs a bomb, and that’s on top of the income tax we pay as well. The Irish health system is a joke. We have great front line workers who are keeping it going, but the system itself it is hopeless. I have zero confidence that the Irish government will ever sort it out.

I think you work in a lab from earlier comments, so you’re probably highly qualified. In the US you would be paid properly and respected for your hard work. Your health insurance covers your costs and outcomes are better than in Ireland.

Yes, the US system is also a mess and they’re trying to reform it. It’s not as bad as Ireland though – and it costs less.

Judging by your profile name I’d imagine your a bundle of laughs. Teachers are moaners… What a generalisation by you

It is. Teachers and principals have been instructed not to co-operate with this behaviour. Speak with the union rep in the school and make a complaint. Those jobs are supposed to be for new entrants.

Go on Joan. What have ya got to say for yourself?

I didn’t say all of my colleagues have those qualifications. They most certainly don’t. But for you to make a generalisation that public sector workers have degrees and nothing else comes across as immature. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. I mean no disrespect to you when I say that, as you are obviously still in school and not yet living in the real world, you should withhold your opinion until you check your sources. You have made several statements that are plainly incorrect but you continue to argue your point. For example “public sector workers have had no pay cuts”. Do yourself a favour and check your information before you post.

Abby, teachers work damn hard. You and every other person who thinks teachers should just suck it up because it’s some mythologized “vocation” need to step back and see that THAT is part of the problem. It’s not some mythologized vocation- seeing it as such is detrimental as it implies we as a society are quick to make justifications for the deplorable conditions and work overload they face- it’s hard ass work that deserves the same rights and regulations as any other profession. My sister is a teacher who puts in 55-65 hrs a week, a lot of overtime that’s not paid. And yes – a paycut as Dave mentioned. Furthermore, I’m in the private sector, and it blows the mind that so many on here have given in to flagging others off be they public or private sector workers. The last thing this country needs is for it’s people to be divided. We must stand together for everyones rights.

Some people have made comments about the standard of teaching in Ireland. By international standards it’s definitely falling behind in spite of the large investments made in the last 10 years. It would be interesting to know why that is.

I’m quite happy to accept that teachers work hard. I certainly don’t envy their task of managing large groups of children.

That said, teachers are very well represented in the Dail and by their unions. They’re one of the more powerful groups in Irish society. I suspect quite strongly that there is substantial room for improvement in Irish education, but I’m not sure that teachers will ever agree.

Well most private sector workers on here seem to think they know more about working in the public sector than public sector workers themselves…
Maybe they should work a 12 hour shift on Christmas day and show us how it could be done better?

If I did my job in the private sector id get paid a lot more plus on a salary of 40k, on retirement with ps pension and state pension, id still be getting less than 400pw.

You just keep missing the point. We can’t afford the public sector at its current size. There is more pain to come.

Vote bribing?? Really? I dont think developers and bankers are public sector. We were looking after you lo t in hospitals and educating your children long before the private sector greed got out of hand. If we werent suffering financially then we’d be spending in the private sector so dont think its just private who are suffering. People still need healthcare and an education regardless if what you think. Our education system must be working, sure look at all the professionals and graduates being snapped up all over the world!

Bob that nice little walk around the yard -you can have it! You’ll need to be multitasking though, roles include:
Babysitter
Referee
Nurse
Garda
Ban Ki Moon

But there’s a silver lining, you get to skip lunch so you’ll be nice and trim

Secondary school teacher’s payscale as of Jan 2011

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/

This is about PRIMARY teachers. Read the bloody article!

Are they not in the public sector too on the same pay no????? I thought they were. Can you get a link to their payscale David?

No. It’s a different job. Completely different payscale.

Found the link anyway here David.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

and correct me if I’m wrong but they look the same………

I was wrong. They actually start in the 20k bracket now.

I presume you’ll be applying for a job then?

Why does nobody in the private sector know that public sector pay was cut in the 2009 budget? Combined with the pension levy I lost €1000 per month. My husband lost the same amount. So, as you can imagine, we are struggling.

“Most of the private sector has taken a pay cut and the public sector hasn’t”
Absolute rubbish – typical of the nonsense and misinformation constantly being recycled by begrudging private sector workers.
For the record, I work in the private sector myself.

ALL of the public sector has taken a paycut. SOME of the private sector had a much smaller paycut and wages in the private sector are increasing, an increase of 1.6% last year.

@matt. misinformed yes, incorrect no. careful there is a very fine line.

ho and for the record. I work in both.

Sean, are you seriously trying to tell us that its not incorrect to state that the public sector have not taken a pay cut??

What a ill informed comment. How dare you say alot of civil servants are not as educated as those that migrate? I am highly educated, overworked and taxed as much as any private worker. Me and my colleagues continue to educate and evolve out of our own pocket while giving 100% to ensure our sick or vulnerable patients are taken care of while taking a paycut and reduction of annual leave. I take many risks to ensure patients receive the best possible care even when we are short staffed and resource crippled. Staying on after work to ensure a days work is done without building hours or getting paid for that time. Spend a week in a hospital laboratory anywhere outside of dublin and you will understand our predicament. Frontline staff are underpaid and under appreciated. Taxed and worked to the bone. Get your facts straight and don’t paint everyone with the same brush.

I’m in the private sector and have taken no pay cut. However, my available money has disintegrated because of vat, fuel prices, service cost increases, general day to day spending. We are struggling as a result compared to a few years back.

So those who have taken pay cuts public or private are being hit harder.

We should also stop referring to the teachers debate in a personal manner. It’s the system that needs work. The teachers themselves do great work, but the debate draws teachers in to take it personally which can’t be balanced from any perspective. Separate the teacher from the system they work in.

Then don’t send your kids to a fee paying school… Wish I could afford fee paying school for any of my kids… Obviously you have a good job if you can afford those fees

Ah the truth comes out!…. ginger all i can say is with that tone and with that type of demeaner I really hope your not in the educational sector. very highly educated…. Ill say no more the uspoken point is proven.

No. Not true. There’s no way we’ll take you.

My parents did.

Enough said…

Yes Sara… your right. About a totally unrelated subject. You are very right.

Couldn’t tell you, some old banger anyway. And yourself?

@gingerman: one last time – where does the money that pays public sector salaries come from?