Agreed

Aine, teachers like you absolutely do have respect, but as you said yourself there are others less deserving of their wage and conditions. You must realise, that being part of any union, protects the lazy as well as teachers lie yourself and ultimately effort and hard work are not rewarded as they should be. Welcome for your commitment, I hope you are rewarded appropriately relative to your abilities and achievements.

Aine at last a bit if a reality from a teacher, your an example of what a good teacher should be, best of luck in your career!

I agree, we want good teachers.

But the system needs to be changed, empowering principals to be able remove bad teachers from the system would be a great step forward. The croke park agreement should have focused on increasing the time students spend in the classroom, not cutting salaries. Ireland has one of the shortest school years of the OCED countries, the kids should be in the classroom for an extra 4 weeks a year.

The starting salary of a doctor is about the same as the new starting gross salary of a primary teacher, so I really don’t think they are underpaid.

I am an environmental scientist… BSc and an MSc … work 40 hours a week… take home pay… ?1860 a month. Private sector… working 4 years.

A few points Conor, one thing you forget is that many teacher positions are protected I.e they will never know what its like to compete to keep their job. You never actually state what you earn, and I dont think anyone expects you to, but you should not expect others to either. I’m an engineer, and earn a very good wage, I did however have to leave the country I love and my friends and family for that job, after being 3.5yrs professionally unemployed. however I think what I do is irrelevant, the reality is $32k a year is a damn good wage for most professionals starting out in their career, and if new teachers feel hard done by then that anger should be directed at the unions who are protecting the over inflated wages of many in public and civil service.

I’m an engineer not in the construction sector but the agricultural sector so don’t brand me with ur celtic tiger b******t i’ve had to leave Ireland to get a job, my wages are the same as a starting teacher, but i do over 500 hrs over time a year and i worked over 30 weekend days, neither of which i get paid for! I don’t get the time back either,

I’ve seen teachers who are in a full time position take a year out and travel the world after a year just walk back into their full time position! It doesn’t work like that in the private sector! Teachers in the uk only get paid when they teach they get nothing for summer holidays and they teach more days during the year than Ireland, the thing is teachers at the top get paid way too much teachers at the bottom should start on low wages, i’ve done an internship at a company for 13,000 for the year! Thats standard in the uk and gradually ur wages go up!

I didn’t want to be a teacher, because I wanted to be an engineer, but like many others, we can still have an opinion on teacher wages. These opinions cannot be invalidated, because we didn’t become teachers ourselves. To think otherwise is silly.

# Emerald Phoenix, of course you are entitled to your opinion on this issue as am I. I never suggested that because you’re not a teacher you can’t comment. I’m not a teacher and I have an opinion. That’s the great thing about leaving a comment-we get an idea of others think and agree to disagree :)

I am then wondering what is the relevance is of asking persons why they don’t just become teachers? I was trying to answer that one can have an opinion about the worth of our teachers, without it meaning that they are in some way jealous of them and wanting their jobs and conditions, or indeed it meaning that they aren’t teachers because they wouldn’t do the job for their pay and conditions.

Bridghid, think you hit the nail on the head, our Government has done a fantastic job on turning the public on the public, creating a big smoke screen for the real wasters, the overly paid government advisors, consultants, politicians and so on!

A new sentence starts with a capital letter, also a space after the full stop or comma. A full stop is also required at the end of a sentence. A teacher by any chance? ;-)

Where’s that red pen, D- for effort

That ‘also’ looks a bit out of place there, Reg ;)

Peter’s comment looks like a phone job. It’s hard to hit those tiny keys!

And you, my friend, are what us educated and intelligent people refer to as an ignoramus. Please continue to do the title proud for the world needs people like you to balance the scales.

So many words yet so little said other than attempt to be superior.
Value for money is what is needed not a squandered educational system on teaching salaries.

Welcome to the real world. You leave work at 6 and and have your dinner eaten by 6:30. I must be nice to live so close to work, maybe you should broaden your employment prospects.

I nearly fell off my seat laughing when you said you’re in until 10pm Fridays.
As the man says “you are in yer arse”

Have you been following the news for the past few weeks/months? Allowances have been scrapped for new entrants.

Point taken, the new new pay scale.

They’ve rolled it in together, as the new scale no longer starts at point one, instead now jumps to the fourth point in your first year. So the starting gross salary of a primary school teacher is €30,702. Still a bloody good starting salary for a graduate with only a 4 year degree.

Well said

Gotta love teachers, a heavier cross than poor Jesus ever had to carry, to be honest Eileen, considering no other job has such a high proportion of moaners (apart from maybe taxi drivers) I don’t think anyone would really fancy sitting in a staff room listening to all the bleeding heart stories and whinging all day.

Gaius, i dont claim to carry a heavy cross. Not at all. I get on with my job, enjoy it some days, some days not so much, exactly the same as other professions. But it enrages me to see people comment on a professional body that they are not part of, and feel they know all about just because they went to school and feel they know how to be a teacher from observing people at work. Come back to me when you have spent a week as a teacher and we will discuss the many pros, and cons.

Gaius, i dont claim to carry a heavy cross. Not at all. I get on with my job, enjoy it some days, some days not so much, exactly the same as other professions. But it enrages me to see people comment on a professional body that they are not part of, and feel they know all about just because they went to school and feel they know how to be a teacher from observing people at work. Come back to me when you have spent a week as a teacher and we will discuss the many pros and cons

One does not have to be a teacher to have a valid opinion on what a teacher is worth to the state and society as a whole, for those teachers who took up a job at those rates, that was the offer and that is what they accepted. If they don’t like it, they can go work else where, like most other people do when they are not happy about pay an conditions. It could also be argued that your opinion is biased, because you are a teacher and loose your objectivity. . . .

For what it’s worth I taught primary school kids for 2 summers in a row, about 3 hours of classes each day and then the rest spent supervising sport, not saying it’s the same, but I do have an idea to an extent

Hey why all the red thumbs, they all went on to be astro-physicists

I think that’s a bit of a sweeping statement, I wouldn’t say there are many people who don’t have friends, relatives or partners in teaching. I would counter argue that teachers don’t realise how lucky they are to have a job, there are thousands of people who are not happy with their working conditions for the last few years, but it’s about knowing when to just keep your head down, get on with your job, and be thankful you have one. We currently have an unemployment rate of almost 15%, the 5th highest in the EU, nearly half a million people.

This was in response to the first comment, apologies for duplicating

snobbery …. typical teacher ;)

Ha Sean typical trolling comment, I’m not a teacher but care about a few

measly penny you earn… after 28 years… let me see… in excess of 50k for a 7 month ‘year’…. laughable

If you have no intention of ever trying to teach your own class Sean, I suggest you stop trolling on an issue you obviously know nothing about. Having a sister in secondary school doesn’t count.

said by his mother

I don’t want to stand up for lazy people. I would like to see good teachers paid well, and sheet or lazy teachers sacked. Simple.

No point complaining here Eimear, along the way us teachers clearly became the enemy of the state! Not sure why, but it is clear those above us have decided we are lazy and not worthy of the same pay conditions as others with degrees, a really sickening take on this from (some) members of the general public

Eileen, unfortunately it is the case that most people are not capable of independent, critical thought, and will therefore subscribe to whatever populist fad the day presents: be that voting against FF, hating the English, wanting David Norris for president, or any other movement-du-jour. Today it is begrudgery against any public servant who has the nerve to want a fair salary for their efforts which no one would begrudge if they were in the private sector. Tomorrow it will be that public servants should be paid in Lidl vouchers – and be grateful for them.

Well, I suppose compared to the vast majority of working people in both the private and public sector, teacher’s really don’t have such a bad lot do they? You also forget that almost every single Irish person in the workforce had teachers and spent most of their childhood / teens in the classroom, therefore, while hardly equating to seeing all of the work teachers do, at least having more insight into the life of a teacher than teachers have into the lives of those working in other areas. Nobody is saying it’s not okay to want better working conditions, it’s just that teachers are CONSTANTLY moaning about how unfair it is on them and how everyone is out to get them, ‘you don’t know what it’s like to be me’, blah blah blah. The reason you get less sympathy than say, nurses or gardaí, is because (a) you’re always giving out and (b) it’s the manner in which your arguments are put forward, quite galling for most members of the public. By the way, both my parents were teachers, in the north inner city where kids were constantly caught up in crime and in Tallaght, where things were just as bad, and I never heard them complain once, maybe it’s a generational thing.

its more than reasonble

I earn that per year and work a 60hr week

*wages

Well said that man.

A newly qualified teacher in a secondary school in Switzerland earns circa e75k per year. Switzerland is Europe’s most competitive economy. Quality education costs. We have to make a decision about whether we invest in providing our children with the best education possible or get caught up in a game of begrudery where we believe that everyone is doing better than ourselves and deserves to be taken down a few notches.

I agree that teachers need to be well paid Stephen but you can’t compare Ireland with one of Europe’s richest countries. This country is broke, borrowing vast amounts of money to pay for services and salaries. I’m not begrudger, just a realist.

Switzerland didn’t just become rich overnight. It’s the high quality of their educators that laid the ground stone. We need radical reform of our system and well paid (and respected) teachers have to be part of it. It’s a really important job. Today’s march was about giving new teachers the same pay as teachers who were first employed in 2010. It’s hard to disagree with that. Cuts should be even across the board if and when they have to be made. Sadly the Unions sold out their future members bog time in this regard.

(By the way I didn’t mean to post my comment as a reply to you)

Switzerland didn’t become rich because of education. It became rich because of banking and keeping out of wars. Some very dodgy banking btw.

Oh ffs, first of all it’s * our job, not * are job. There was no learning support when I was in school, so be grateful there’s any at all, and to say teachers are the most valuable resource in this country is arrogant to say the least, most can’t even spell.

Yes a typo, happens to to the best of us. You try teach in a class with over 35 students and how dare you diss learning support. They are one of the most valued members of staff. You try to teach a diverse class with various learning difficulties from dyspraxia to autism. You try to give students the attention the deserve in an overflowing classroom.

Hahahah Agreed Brighid! Only an educated lot know how much work and attention to detail goes into a teacher’s weekly or even daily plans.

If by being physically abused by a teacher and having to leave primary school at the age of 9, then yes, Brighid, you’d imagine I would have a grudge as a result, but like I’ve said elsewhere, both of my parents were teachers, it’s the whining about pay and conditions that I find unacceptable, teachers seem to live in a bubble and never look outside at how other workers circumstances are ten times worse, it’s insular, which is unhealthy.

Both of my parents were teachers, no rant, just tired of hearing teachers whining about having a job, too many kids in the classroom? Guess what, your job is to teach kids. Teachers live in an insular bubble, thinking that nobody else faces the problems they face and the sense of entitlement shown here, in Ireland, in 2012, is reprehensible, maybe the two of you should pop over to a struggling family with kids who have lost their jobs and have the bank hounding them for mortgage repayments and tell them your sob story.

It may have escaped your notice that the protest was outside school hours. Also it was only organised for Dublin based teachers. If it was held next week crowds would have bigger.

*Would have been bigger.*

Yes and a lot of teachers went marching after their Croke park hours on Wednesday. And fyi most of the people marching were students.

though they did “work to rule” during parent teacher meetings for the last few year, meaning they forced parents to take their holidays during their working day.

Why would we protest then? That’s the time I have for luxury two month holidays abroad with my massive salary!

Wish they had…would have loved to participate but was busy conducting a free, voluntarily run after school club!

The majority of those represented are from the teaching colleges.

The majority of secondary teachers do not start on full hours and therefore only receive a fraction of this wage. Most teachers work many years before receiving full time contracts.I am aware of teachers working 12 hour contracts who work in McDonalds at night make up a living wage. If this is how we want to treat the people who educate our children we live in a very sad country.

Do you really think you will attract the brightest and best with these sort of wages?

I know lots of people in private sector who never got a pay cut – my husband included.

I do feel bad for them, but I just finished my degree in engineering and some of my classmates (of the few who got work in Ireland) are on slightly over €20k, some are doing free internships or are getting paid minimum wage during an internship. Before the recession engineering graduates could earn double that.
€28k would be sweet!!

Niamh, just to be clear the pay is €32k for starting. The €21k is after Tax and the pension contribution. We have PhD and MBA graduates working with us for more like the figure you are talking about to get experience in the real world.

They complain now about starting wage of €32k, and will complaining about living on Cornflakes if they were on €75k.

Amy what planet are you on, teachers are not the only qualified graduates who can’t get jobs, my son is a mechanical engineer graduated from a very prestigious uni and has had to leave the country to work in UK as no jobs here with, my husband also well qualified and shed load of experience had to work in Middle East for year for same reason…teachers piss me off with their sense of entitlement, they are just some of many many people who have had wage cuts, tax increases etc, they are nothing special (and I’ve worked in a primary school so I know what I’m talking about)!

Niamh , a lot of the teacher union crowd would have you think us malcontents in the private sector don’t have degrees and all made 50 million each with our property portfolio in the boom. They won’t mention that 80% of entire education budget goes on wages , it why kids will go to school in glorified wooden boxes and even with 80% of the entire pot they won’t even share with the new teachers , have to hand it to THem they have neck liked jockies bollo@ to be pretending they give a shit about young teachers

Aren’t on the politicians on holidays at that time too? There’s no use in shouting at an empty building.

Utterly ridiculous comment teachers pay is based on shorter working year just equalised over the year. A teacher starting wage after deductions is only 1.5 times the dole. For teachers on the old rate it is twice the dole. Hardly racking it i also I can tell you as the mother of a teacher she spends at least 2-3 hours a night on planning etc she she is currently doing a masters in special education on her own time nights weekends etc and she will receive no additional allowance for it So there is no incentive for teachers to ups kill actually the gov does not care about the quality of education so long as they can keep cutting costs next they will be asking people to volunteer for nothing oh wait they do it’s called jobs bridge

So, your telling me that the old rate is €376 per week for a teacher, and the new rate is €282????…. Somebody is telling their Mammy porkies!!!

The old starting rate was €807.69 per week and the new rate is €615.38 per week before deductions. Unless they are paying €431.69 and €333.38 in deductions respectively, I think your figures are incorrect, I even dare suggest they are utterly ridiculous. I also said in my original posting that I don’t fully agree with the proposal I put forward but was merely suggesting that change must be forthcoming and lateral thinking in this regard is required.

@michael

You should apologise to the lady, I currently have 43.4% of my salary taken away on deductions so using the figures you gave she may be correct.

There is also a very strong chance that her daughter is not working to full hours therefore she is only getting a percentage of what the starting full time salary is. The vast majority of new teachers now take a good few years to even get close to full hours. In my particular school, teachers who’ve been there for 6 and 7 years are still only on 3/4 hours. I would reckon that 25% of the teaching staff are not on full hours.

@eric Apologise for what? The figures above are based on fulltime hours. One cannot compare part time teaching work to full dole payments either, it doesnt give a true picture. Also, a person earning ?32K before all deductions, included pension levy, does not have 43.7% deducted from their pay. Ask your Accounting Teacher colleugue to do the sums tomorrow.

We don’t. We get paid for the hours we work spread out over the 12 months.

We don’t what?

I hope the people who red thumbed me understand there are going to be alot of disappointed kids who’s friends are going but they can’t…. my sister can go as I can pay for it but my parents don’t want her going as her two friends can’t. She is a nice girl and fully understands. pity some teachers are to insensitive and cocooned within their own bubble…

So is she going to EuroDisney or what??…the first sentence of your comment is a ridiculous generalisation by the way…hard working honest people standing up for what they deserve, if more of the country did it, we’d be better off…

@Geoff… the tone and manner in which you asked whether my sister is going or not tells me you are a rather disinterested me me me merchant who hates when realities of life in Ireland are brought up.. realities like the fact that many of the kids the teachers are so ‘ dedicated ‘ to teaching come from homes where money ostensibly seriously tight or non existant … I hope you are not a teacher…..

They don’t have to go on the school trip to Euro Disney…Jesus, lighten up. The other half can go to Tayto Park..
I’m not a teacher but I am a ‘money hungry, perk having, pension paid by the rest of the country, loadsa time off’ public servant…

Your sister’s teachers most likely have no say in the trip. That stuff would be organised by the Principal or Board of Management, as they would have to oversee that kind of thing. Organising a trip to Eurodisney for a whole class group would probably be a teachers idea of hell anyway :)

it’s also very common to have teachers travel expense build into the students trip cost. I was surprised when I discovered this.

That’s a lot of thumbs down your getting…..but don’t be disheartened, it’s probably from one teacher using the schools computer room to thumbs down you from each PC.

Why? The diff between the new teacher graduates and other university graduates is that teachers are tied to a very slow moving increment scale while other graduates can get decent increases when they move jobs or deserve a pay rise.

Remember most of these teachers got over 450 points in the leaving did a 4 year degree and a Hdip on top of that. They for the most part are diligent and hard working and eager to succeed in life. Yet you almost laugh in their inequalities and 30% pay cut.

Can you only feel better when other people have suffered cuts? Do you not know any student teachers? I find it hard to understand why so many people only feel happy when other people suffer :(

Doubt it. There home at 3:30pm.
Bloody teachers aren’t living in the real world.
The phrase a fair days pay for a fair days work, works both ways!!
Less than 20 hours teaching.
No weekends.
No bank holidays.
No midterm.
No Christmas.
Every summer off.
9 months year.
No accountability, whether you’re good, bad or indifferent.

“What about all the preparatory work?”
Give me a break.

Good for you. I’m sure the other posters admire the contempt you hold for people who squeak out a piss poor wage and still spend countless hours prepping, grading, dealing with parents, educating your children, nannying them, trying not to let kids who don’t keep up with the pack fall through the cracks… How dare them expect the rest of us and our government to treat them with any dignity?

Highest paid teachers on the planet and four months PAID hollidays!!!!!!. Unbelievably well paid compared to other countries. They are also protesting about ‘class sizes’, yet all their placards and signs are about money…greed, greed, greed, when will this country ever wake up ffs!

@jump

You’re the person not living in the real world. Schools are full of kids and teenagers suffering from all sorts of real world problems.

Do you know what, volunteer to help in your local school as a sports coach or whatever skill you possess that will be of assistance and then and only then come back and preach about how easy teachers have it.

Like every job teaching has its perks and challenges, you my close minded person can only see one side, take off the blinkers before you cast aspersions over the profession.

John, if you think 21.1K is such a stellar salary at all, nevermind in the middle of crippling austerity, you musn’t be living in Ireland. To suggest that the teachers fighting for a wage on the level with those who entered the profession the year before are motivated by greed is lunacy. That contempt for the people who spend more time with your kids during the week than you do for no thanks needs to be rubbished by anyone who has a decent bone in their body.

You don’t understand, it’s full of teenagers with problems, etc… that’s the bloody job! The job is to train and educate kids, that is all! You might think that they are worse than any other job because most every bloody parent has them and get a lot of empathy based on that, but the job is this – you teach kids.

For this, the government will start you at €21k and the pay will increase over time to between €50k and €75k over your career depending on the roles you take. You have a shedload of holidays, smallest working week and opportunities to perform additional paid work during your holiday times. You don’t have to do this if you don’t want these conditions for this pay; there is a lot of work elsewhere for english speaking qualified teachers (though the Irish and Religion will be of no use), but get off the streets making petty protests because a Union gimp has told you protest for more to keep your elder colleagues’ salaries high.

my apologies… from RTE news site, apparently the 21k bandied around may not be everyone’s starting figure:

In 2009, new entrants to the profession earned almost €41,000 annually.
Since then, the starting salary for new teachers has been reduced to just over €32,000.

@michael hegarty we used to be friends!!!!!!

@Ciaran Cronin…. Don’t read down any further and we still may be!!! :-)

Of course we should have a degree of sympathy , young teachers are paid being less than their colleagues , if of course they can get a job . Of course they will still be paid more than many graduate stater rates but thats beside the point .But why are they protesting outside the Dail? Their own unions just like all the other all the other Public unions are the ones that sold them down the river , they are talking s&it now but they will always choose take a lot from little than a little from a lot. Sheile nunan an ex teacher is on 159 K as a union cheif , and make no mistake folks their remit is the all of their current members out the door with any further cuts and their lump sum and to hell with new teachers , they are the facts so go look a little closer to home , what kind of union would let teachers be part time for years while allowing some guy holds their job hopn for maybe 20 years while they fatten themselves on the TD gravy train .BTW equal pay for equal work ? so they will now spend 40 hour in school , we all hear they do 50 hours so do it in school, accept that extra pay for correcting examns while they are on full pay on holidays is a joke, its being paid twice .

It must be very tough starting on such a low salary and not getting increments as quick as you’d like, all the while other people are losing their jobs and taking pay cuts (if they’re lucky). When teachers do a 40-hour week and get 21 days annual leave they can come back to me with their whinging, ‘but we do prep work at home for the next day!’ guess what, most people do work at home and at weekends and all summer long. I’m also a bit worried about some of the standards in grammar in these posts.

@Westmeath

How can you say that, how can you not care for these young people. They haven’t even entered teaching and you are already blaming them for everything. These young people are somebody’s children. They have been educated to the best of the parents ability. They just want justice, what’s fair for all. Why should a teacher that has retired, on a very nice pension (yes, that they paid for) be brought back to the ‘local’ school because it saves people paperwork and interviewing? Schools and our children need young, vibrant, enthusiastic, interested young teachers.

Classes cannot be allowed get any larger than they are at the moment. It’s not fair on the child that has a difficulty, that needs the extra time and help, but can’t because he/she is not in the high percentile to get into the ‘special needs’ eg. maths, dyslexia etc. etc. That child gives up very quickly when he/she sees that it seems the teacher doesn’t care, (in fact, the teacher just cannot give the extra time needed) so why should the pupil care. These poor unfortunate kids are the ones that leave at 14/15 years old, uneducated, and end up on the dole or minimum wage. Not fair.

Neither do I, I worked with some, and dealt with loads along the way, some were good but majority were useless and beyond any correction. Don’t want to hear about corrections after class etc, like a doctor complaining about being on call! Part of the job, if you don’t like it, don’t do it!!!!!

Education in Ireland, was much better was teacher/student ratios were higher. . . FACT!

*when

I’ve no sympathy for the fools who left school early, didn’t study or work hard and have a chip on their shoulder over people who made the right choices in life, don’t know any teachers who earned €1500+ a week in the boom times

#ignorance

That’s because you don’t understand discrimination… dont worry about it, petal…

Yes I do understand discrimination clearly We deserve equal pay for equal work!

Yes and many newly qualified teachers are on a permanent unpaid holiday because they can’t get jobs. This situation will get worse if class sizes are increases – one of the reasons for this protest.

amy – If the situation gets worse, you can thank the Fianna Fail / Fine Gael voters for electing those governments who’ve created this.

Jealous much????

Amy how can teachers protest over class when it has been proven that it is one the lesser factors in educational outcomes ,more pressing could you tell me for example if anyone has every failed the Hdip , I don’t believe so ! What does that say about standards ? Btw if you are a new teacher I do wish you well , it is an important job and one I respect but the teacher unions are a disgrace .

Bigger class sizes = less jobs = more people on social welfare, instead of earning money and paying tax. Also, I personally know people who have failed the primary teaching h.dip/probationary period.

Please tell me you wont be teaching ecomomic Amy. We are operating is a situation where 80% of the entire education budget goes on wages , crazy, that cannot be touched at the behest of the grossly overpaid militant union officials that you support, They alone allow this situation exist , they alone will allow for the pension of retired teacher be higher than new wages young teacher working full time . we all know becasue of demographics that alot more teachers are required but the union remit is to ensure the imcumbants get out the door with their massive lump sum and gravy pension , dont be fooled young teacher are mearly pawns in their PR coverup

Load of nonsense. Secondary school is free in Italy (as is uni) and in every European country that I know of (I teach on the continent btw). Only exception is private schools which in places like Switzerland are regarded as inferior to public schools.

Stephen – Google is your friend. I’m not sure you properly researched that. I’m not defending FG apartheid but this state cannot finance schools without some contribution. Most European countries require a flat fee for schooling their kids. I think that kids are well-spoiled too.

Go on so Una, tell me how much it costs in Italy then to send a child to a public secondary school? I suspect you are taking about something you know little about. I link would be great. Also the other countries that supposedly charge for secondary school would be great. And Una… Google is your friend.