USI have changed their direction. They are holding public meetings all across the country, targeting TDs and holding smaller, local protests so that it isn’t just the annual trip to Dublin. The USI are mandated to fight for free fees, and this was reaffirmed by their fees referendum they held in the last semester. That means that the students of Ireland wanted them to continue this fight.

You’re right. The state can’t afford to fund the sector at the current levels, but the problem is they are spending a massive chunk of the allocation to third level on salaries. Then, fees are increased and grants cut. Some students on the grant have already taken a cut of 60%, forcing people out of their education. It’s been cut 11% in general over the past couple of years, and it comes into effect immediately which means if they cut it again, students will feel the hit as quick as January. The grant rates aren’t particularly high in the first place which means even students getting them are struggling, not to mention the fact that the awarding authorities including the new SUSI system are incredibly slow at getting students processed in the first place, leaving them struggling for the first couple of months.

I for one welcome this change in direction. These meetings call on the local TD to come up and answer to the students, the parents, the local business people etc. about what exactly they are doing to protect education, to prevent fee increases and stop cuts to the grants. The local protests get the issue on the agenda for the local towns who in a lot of cases depend on the student population to keep the local businesses booming during term time.

I look forward to attending the public meetings, particularly to question Eamon Gilmore on his stance on it as lets not forget Ruairi Quinn signed a pledge on behalf of Labour not to increase student fees and not to cut the student grants.

The students who study in college go on to become our doctors, nurses, teachers, lawyers, business people, our social workers, the people we depend on in society. They will also pay more tax. I can’t understand how people don’t see that we need to protect our 3rd level education, to protect the future of the country.

Hold on… ” USI are mandated to fight for free fees, and this was reaffirmed by their fees referendum….the students of Ireland wanted them to continue this fight”
First of all it is not the students of Ireland, it is some of the students of Ireland. UL, DCU and CIT do not adhere to handing over thousands of euro of students money to the USI. Secondly that poll was a sham. It was taken at a time when students would be preoccupied with exams and not in college. NUIG SU made a vocal protest on the poll and and how it was conducted: http://www.thejournal.ie/dispute-erupts-over-usis-student-fees-poll-461287-May2012/ Also, a close second to the ’100% exchequer funded’ option was ‘student contribution’ so the views of the voters in that poll was not clear cut and a decisive victory for the free fee’s brigade.

And I agree with you, we need to protect our education but also primary and secondary. Not having the realisation though that we are in a deep recession is shambolic. Arguing for fully exchequer funded will lead to nothing but meaningless protests. It is time for a solution and real alternatives. The government have no other option but to increase the student reg fee to make up the shortfall. There are many other options that could be looked at but USI seem happy to serve their own interests and rehash the same debate year on year.

Graduate tax model isn’t working for the UK. Their graduates are emigrating or unemployed and can’t pay back their fees as expected. They had similar difficulties in Australia too. The exchequer funded model works in France, why not here? The max they pay is about €300 and it includes all the benefits you get as a student here like free health care (which only some colleges provide), subsidised restaurants and subsidised accommodation, which you definitely do not get here. Even if it did work the graduate tax scheme is short sighted and won’t benefit colleges now but in a few years when we probably don’t need the money as badly. As it is people who graduate from third level education end up paying way more tax anyway because they’re higher earners. They also (usually when the employment rate isn’t so bad) avail of fewer state benefits, using private health insurance etc. and so cost less while paying in more. It makes sense to give your population the best possible level of education.

And unrealistic.

I just don’t get why it has to be a black and white yes fees or no fees choice. Surely target wealthy families, keep middle income families subsidised and keep the grant/access going for the people who need them.

Having 9 siblings, of which 7 of us went to 3rd level here in Ireland, I can say it was no easy task – not one of us received a single grant, and when there are 10 of you, education no longer appears “free”.

50% of TCD students didn’t pay the student contribution in 2011, so I’d love to know where these mythical low income families who don’t get a grant are!

Not saying you’re wrong but where exactly are you getting that figure?

Why do you assume TCD students are wealthy? They have the largest ACCESS/HEAR programme in the country. The grant is set at around 50k household income. That’s two parents on 25 thousand. National industrial wage is 35. And that figure of 50% is in line with the national average for students getting a grant.

You get the grant if education places financial pressure on your family. And that’s the way it should be.

And when I said low income families who don’t get a grant. There are people on medium incomes with equally high expenses. And others who get it and have more disposable income despite having a lower household income. Using he term ‘low income families’ was incorrect but what I really meant was people who don’t have the disposable income to afford fees but miss out on a grant.

Tiarnan, it was information released by the college itself and publicised within the college in the run up to student elections. I think it was actually 49.2% vs 50.8%.

Vinnie, a household’s income must be above €56,000 to not qualify for some sort of financial support. Average household income in 2010 was €43,333. So yeah, I still think our system is fairly generous and working alright.

Kevin your 56,000 figure that’s for families of 8+ children and its a 25% grant. The lowest limit is 40 thousand for 1-2 kids I was just using the median in my examples. Don’t distort the truth to try and make yourself look right. So I make 57k and have 8 children and its fair that I don’t get a grant. Get real. Now I doubt there’s any Apu’s with 8 kids. But this is what I’m talking about when I say people on middle incomes who are broke yet dont get a grant. And that if uni’s are made fee paying this needs to be avoided by keeping the subsidy in place for families on say <70 a year (just an example). Here's a link from 09…. When the threshholds were even fairer than they are now. It's the sourcee I was using while dismantling your useless points. http://www.dublincity.ie/Community/HigherEducationGrants/Documents/2009%20HEG%20SCHEME%20Final.doc

€56,000 is to qualify for 50% student contribution (i.e. you only pay 1125 instead of 2250). Please do get your own figures right before accusing others of distorting the truth.

Yes, it is fair that if you have 8 children and fall outside the bracket to qualify for a partial grant that you don’t get one. There’s a reason the income levels are graduated by amount of dependents (1-3. 4-7 and 8+) in order to make the system that bit fairer.

Really, if you want a family to be earning 70k or more before removing the grant – you’re living in cuckoo land.

I don’t know why you linked me to a document from 2009, and I don’t know what “useless points you dismantled” as your only rebuttal was to do with the 56k figure, and you were wrong there.

Do continue ranting and foaming at the mouth while arguing that a household income almost double the national average should qualify for a grant, by all means.

The reason I linked that is to point out that it takes a high number of dependants to get anywhere near the 56 figure which you were painting as the normal. The median is 50, the figure I was using and which you disputed. My overall point is this. Currently as it stands.

Low income: Grant
Medium & High Earners: €2300

How I think It should be.

Low income: Grant
Medium Earners: €2300
High earners: Full fees.

My issue was that Apu could be paying full fees. And that currently some medium earners genuinely need the grant due to high expenses/personal circumstance. But since the limit is in this sort of grey area some people struggle.

Right. But the current leaders/members would have been 8 years old lol.

Suppose but try convincing a guy with a phd in physics that he should work for less than what he’d get in the private sector. (Alot)

So much waffle. Honestly.

Intelligent reply Vinnie. Spoken like a true believer in the value of education.

As opposed to your long winded comment based on stereotyping and conjecture. At least mine was short.

Indeed. Short on intelligence for sure.

Ok no you’re right. The 50% of students who have part time jobs make enough money on minimum wage to cover the full costs of a university education un-subsidised by the government. But instead we spend it on booze and smokes (and don’t forget drugs).

I am indeed the one who makes un-thought out narrow minded comments about education. Sorry for calling you a waffler. Friends?

I work while studying, however the University frequently require me to be on campus until 6pm, which drastically limits the number of hours I can work. Jobs are not easy to come by, I’m lucky to have one, and jobs that will accommodate one’s University Timetable are nearly non-existent.
I can essentially manage to work about 20 hours a week, 12 hours on a Saturday and 8 on a Sunday; if I’m lucky. That’s about 180 euros, gross. Not even close to covering the costs of fees, accommodation, travel, and my body’s tiresome requirement for sustenance.

Haven’t had a pint in about a month (went out for my girlfriend’s 21st) and I gave up smoking before coming to University; couldn’t afford it anymore.

Even those of us who aren’t partying are struggling. It’s very easy to say “ah sure fund it with your job”, but even for students who can manage to find work, the kind of work we can do is limited by the 20+ hours a week we need to be in University. Universities do not care, they will not accommodate.

I’d love to be able to drop out and continue the lifestyle I had while I was just working, it was far easier. However it was also unsustainable. If we want people to upskill, and to have a “knowledge economy” or whatever bullshit buzzword they’re using for it this week, then we need to facilitate people to do so. Currently we do not.

Only the costs of their own kids education. Irish universities are non profit. You’re talking 10-12 grand a year. Harvard is more like 30. And they’d need the grades for that anyway?

Would damage their credibility to a certain extent. You’d be at a disadvantage to the people on campus with all those resources at their disposal. Also most courses have practical aspects.

Yes Vinnie. I’ve heard English Literature has a *huge* practical element alright, and couldn’t possibly be done remotely. You should have a word with the Open University and show them the error of their educational ways.

My Uni doesn’t do English literature, however I’d imagine actually being there would make the lectures more engaging. I can only speak for DCU when I say most of its full time courses (80+) require you to be at the campus at least once a day. Go to their website and look up a few timetables and find me one that doesn’t say practical or tutorial anywhere. Although ill admit It offers distance education instead of night courses. But like I said, academic resources and the advantage of actually being there which is a better way to learn/communicate is always an advantage. Distance learning is a flexible alternative not a replacement.

All joking aside Vinnie, distance learning is a valid and valuable model of education. There is much research to support its fulfilment of educational objectives, and much economic justification for its expansion. Libraries and other resources are replicable online and essential books are bought anyway, or at least should be. The main drawback is actually the lack of face-to-face time and peer interaction, but these can be overcome by clever design including synchronous sessions etc.

I agree but I prefer the idea of it being used hand in hand with on-campus learning. For example I did a project management module online, but there were 3 mandatory seminars and the exam was done in a computer lab.
So long as the old traditional uni’s reject the idea any college that breaks the mould will probably damage it’s reputation. As a student you want the tangibility to your lectures.

I agree. I guess the challenge is to give that tangibility while maximising flexibility. The concept of Blended Learning has gotten good traction lately and is, as the name suggests, about mixing between different modes of delivery. Clearly, there are some subjects which are better suited to less physical contact than others – arts/humanities tend to have less practical elements than say science and engineering. Having said that, much of it comes down to a student’s attitude to learning. Students who have high self-motivation, have a stronger academic foundation and are clear on what they wish to get from the education system do tend to fit well with a blended-type system. This would not suit the group of students who may have drifted into a programme they perhaps shouldn’t have taken in the first place. Further, I’m still not sure that distance learning/blended is ever suitable for undergraduate programmes. The ability to teach critical thinking (which in my view is the SOLE purpose of undergraduate education – education v training is another discussion altogether!) cannot easily be replicated other than in close tutorials – Oxbridge-style preferably.

Another thing to consider is team work/leadership skills from group projects. And the contacts you make in college.

And let your shower of tossers in?? Give me a break….

My shower of tossers, who are they?

Some left wing freak show I assume…Probally SF…But i am sure it will be denied..

So If I say I don’t like SF or any leftwing looney party, It’s a denial and I’m lying? I can’t win can I, But I will tell you this and I don’t care what you believe. As soon as Irish people put FF/FG/Labour/SF and the socialists in the history books, then that’ll be progress and Ireland can finally move into the 21st Century!

To be fair that rating system is pretty flawed!!