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Comment #4979882 by Sinead Hanley

Sinead Hanley Apr 15th 2016, 8:49 AM #

You are right Deborah. My brothers were taken out of school at 16 to work in supermarkets cos we were poor. They had the opportunity to train as electricians a few years later and my father denied them this chance cos he thought we couldnt afford it. They were devastated. This is the cr@p you deal with when you come from a deprived background. It wasnt long before they became “known to gardai”… it was minor stuff but its very frustrating when you have ambition but no support

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Known to gardaí? Every time a man is shot dead, I wait for this little phrase to rear its ugly head

Known to gardaí? Every time a man is shot dead, I wait for this little phrase to rear its ugly head

Author and scholar Frankie Gaffney writes about “that vile euphemism: Known to Gardaí. ‘Deserved it’ in other words.”

REPLIES

    Favourite Michael O'Reilly
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    Apr 15th 2016, 7:44 AM

    Well said Captain Kirk. The euphemism mightn’t be a great one but it cuts to the chase pretty quickly as to what kind of individual we’re dealing with. It’s all too easy to defend these gangland thugs on the basis of where they’re from when many people from these areas carve out perfectly successful, law-abiding lives for themselves.

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    Favourite Deborah Behan
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    Apr 15th 2016, 8:40 AM

    When I hear that phrase I do not think “he deserved it” because no one should be judge, jury and executioner. I believe they made bad choices and too often in these poor areas it’s easier to make money doing illegal things rather than studying and maybe, maybe getting a good job where you have to pay taxes. It’s not hard to see why some young men go down this route but none deserve to die.

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    Favourite Old Gabby Johnson
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    Apr 15th 2016, 8:46 AM

    If someone is killed the public want to know if its because of a paramilitary attack, if its a criminal, if its an accident or some other tragedy – known to Gardai is ideal.. and i don’t see why the author has his knickers in a twist about it – it’s not convicting anyone it just gives Joe public an idea of what’s going on.

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    Favourite Sinead Hanley
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    Apr 15th 2016, 8:49 AM

    You are right Deborah. My brothers were taken out of school at 16 to work in supermarkets cos we were poor. They had the opportunity to train as electricians a few years later and my father denied them this chance cos he thought we couldnt afford it. They were devastated. This is the cr@p you deal with when you come from a deprived background. It wasnt long before they became “known to gardai”… it was minor stuff but its very frustrating when you have ambition but no support

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    Favourite Old Gabby Johnson
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:01 AM

    Are they electricians now Sinead?

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    Favourite KalEll
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:04 AM

    The point is the phrase is so vague that it could mean anything from gangland enforcer to cannabis dealer to someone who got picked up for drug use who is now clean. We have no idea.

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    Favourite John Clarke
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:06 AM

    No disrespect Sinead but it appears to me from what you’ve said that their grievance lies with the decisions taken by your father to deny them the opportunity of a trade. Plenty of others have emerged from disadvantaged backgrounds to establish successful professional lives in a range of areas. With regard to their subsequent involvement in crime causing them to become ‘known to Gardaí’ that was a result of their own personal choices. I’m from a disadvantaged Northside community, which in the 1980′s had a serious heroin problem, like many others. I’ve never been known to Gardaí and have carved a successful working life.

    My point is, sometimes it’s easy for people to blame being disadvantaged, or being from a disadvantaged area, for poor personal and life choices. The responsibility for which lies with themselves.

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    Favourite joe o hare
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:10 AM

    Well done captain, this article was clearly above your limited comprehension. Stick with reading the Sunday world.

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    Favourite UndieGrundy
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:27 AM

    Sometimes, yes John. But Sinead’s point is still absolutely valid and I think your response is a little too simplistic. You take someone out of school to work in a supermarket then you have kneecapped them. You have also made them bitter and angry. It’s a well established fact that those that leave school early (mainly boys) rarely get back on the education ladder and rarely become professionals as they haven’t mastered the basics most of the rest of us take for granted.

    The poor choices were mede for her brothers, and not by her brothers.

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    Favourite Old Gabby Johnson
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    Apr 15th 2016, 9:59 AM

    When they’re say 21 why don’t they go back to education then – there are a multitude of ways to better yourself – at some point you have to take responsibility for your own self. Too many people say ‘oh i’ve had it tough’ and then spend years repeating the same mantra.

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    Favourite Sinead Hanley
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:02 AM

    John.. Its easier to become involved in crime because your choices in life are more limited. If there was organised crime in the area, they would have been easy targets. After some fights outside nightclubs, drink driving offences etc they copped theirselves on and left their jobs and set up a gardening business and did quite well for themselves. Its very possible to become successful coming from a poor background but you need support and inspiration John especially from family.

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    Favourite UndieGrundy
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:03 AM

    How can you live out of home with today’s rental market, hold down a job to pay for it, and pay for college fees on top of that? If you were living at home you could do it, if not, you’re pissing against the wind. Would you live at home with a father like that aged 21? I wouldn’t.

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    Favourite joey Reilly
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:06 AM

    Then they could say involved in gangland activity.

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    Favourite John
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:15 AM

    @John Clarke

    Well said and congratulations on taking personal responsibility, if only more people did the same…

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    Favourite Marg murphy
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:51 AM

    @john Clarke. In essence I agree with you, but Sinead’s point is also valid. Kids who are successful need mentoring. If they don’t get it at home and if there are street gangs outside it would have to take exceptional strength of character to go it alone. Sinead’s brothers were the victims of short sighted (at best) parents. Without focus and a goal and the prospect of a better life through work, anything can happen to young vulnerable men. It’s why I first and foremost blame the parents for kids gone bad. Parents who don’t put their children first are the problem. Then it becomes inter generational. It’s why we have bad areas. It’s not society’s fault. It’s the fault of the bad apples who get housed there and infect decent people. Dysfunction is a cancer.

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    Favourite Rusty Balls
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    Apr 15th 2016, 11:14 AM

    That one euphemism ‘known to gardai’ is uniquely Irish and I don’t think meant to convey any insult, rather, as the author said its message conveys a multitude. We know what it means. This person was a criminal, but it’s a somewhat polite way of saying it, usually about someone who is dead, and us Irish never speak ill of the dead. Even criminals.

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    Favourite Cathal P Forde
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    Apr 15th 2016, 11:19 AM

    But people do think “well he must have deserved it” or “live by the sword die by the sword” I know I do. It is easier sometimes to get involved in illegal things because sometimes no matter how hard you work, how honest you are, once they hear you are from Sheriff st or in my case Darndale you are labeled and the job or opportunity is gone.

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    Favourite cholly appleseed
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    Apr 15th 2016, 11:25 AM

    When the press use the term “known to gardai”. They are not talking about people arrested for minor things. For them to label someone as that, they are career criminals or heavily involved in crime. The author is a whinge bag and is everything that’s wrong with the bleeding heart do gooders.

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    Favourite Dan Smasheen
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    Apr 15th 2016, 11:58 AM

    This is pretty universal. You can expect ‘well known’ at times. 10 years ago the road tolls at the bad accidents said a ‘insert county here’ native who was a GAA local hero / legend died tragically in a collision with four ‘non-nationals’ (who were about to get married/return home/ celebrate a significant birthday). Why are journalists moaning about other journalists in particularly long articles?

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    Favourite Derek McCarthy
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    Apr 15th 2016, 12:00 PM

    Paid as apprentices, roughly same as dole, pay increases year on year. Father couldn’t afford it? Afford what?.

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    Favourite michael gallagher
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    Apr 15th 2016, 12:01 PM

    Quiet right Marg,I would say a large proportion of the time it’s down to bad parenting and or bad examples being shown to kids. Monkey see monkey do. If my parents spend their lives surviving on welfare then I am much more likely to spend my lifetime on welfare as well. We have a lot of people in this country having kids,who quiet frankly should not be allowed have a goldfish. Since we cant prevent them from having kids,the only thing we can do is hold them accountable when those kids go off the rails and incentivise them to keep their kids in education etc. We have to stop incentivising them to just have more kids. This all has to be linked into the welfare system as money is the only thing that will make them change their ways. Jail means nothing to them.

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    Favourite Sinead Hanley
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    Apr 15th 2016, 12:38 PM

    Old Gabby.. Yes they could have done that. But my point really is they got bad advice from my father, they didnt have the belief they could do anything better than operate a till. Even when i left school at 17, he wanted to find a shop job for me but i refused. I did a fas course that gave me a grant of 30 a month which he thought was a total waste. I got a great job out of it and i am still doing the same work and love it. I just feel that a lot of parents have no plans for their kids re hobbies and education and its no wonder they get caught up in crime. As a parent, its so important to encourage your children and keep them busy and give them confidence. Some need more help than others

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    Favourite gar
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    Apr 15th 2016, 1:33 PM

    Well said. Where you start out in life does not have to be where you end up, but it takes good parenting, effort and strong will power to get there, even for people from affluent areas.

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    Favourite Steve Tracey
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    Apr 15th 2016, 2:00 PM

    Rusty
    Wrong
    UK known to tge police
    Germany Polizei bekannt
    Pretty sure other countries use same expression

    14
    Favourite Cormac Lally
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    Apr 15th 2016, 4:58 PM

    If Ray Burke or Seanie Fitz were shot on the street, would the media refer to them as “known to the Gardaí” as both men are? Highly unlikely.

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    Favourite Mags Mooney
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    Apr 15th 2016, 6:04 PM

    Your missing the whole point of the Author’s article, what it boils down to is respect for the dead whatever background that is and the reasons why these young men take these paths in life. Like Frankie says its because of social conditions, prohibition, poverty and because inner city Dublin has been and always will be at the bottom of the list whoever is in Government. Gardai assume as do most people that all inner-city people are “inherently bad”, all labelled and stereotyped because of your postcode

    I grew up in the inner city and I am now rearing a teenage boy in the inner city and its not easy, it’s hard, it was hard being a child growing up here and keeping out of trouble and its even harder being a mother trying to rear a decent human being because of other people’s ignorance. The inner city folk don’t have the same chances as the rest of Dublin, I even remember applying for jobs in the 80′s with a Dublin 1 postcode got you a no thank you letter and thats if they had the decency to even reply

    Have some compassion because all these young men “known to Gardai” got into trouble for a reason but no one ever asks why. Frankie said that reporters should just say “known criminal”, “convicted drug-dealer”, “gangster” instead of the “Known to Gardai!” phrase because it”s an insult to the family they leave behind, whoever they are somebody loves them.

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    Favourite Tomás Ó Briain
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    Apr 15th 2016, 8:06 PM

    In Britain they use their version ‘known to the Police’ or ‘known to the authorities’. It’s a cowardly way to libel someone.

    4
    Favourite bingo
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:06 PM

    It’s not “libel” – it’s the truth!

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    Favourite Mike Igoe
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    Apr 15th 2016, 10:49 PM

    You’re right Kirk. When we hear about deplorable violence like this in broad daylight, we deploy a coping mechanism – we need assurance that it can’t happen to us or the people we care about. But as more details have emerged about this, we’ve seen a staggering change of tone in the comments on this site. Headlines move from “gangland, known to Gardai” to “Innocent father of 3 murdered” and people are falling over themselves to adopt positions opposite to those they were trumpeting yesterday. As far as this article goes though – my first reaction was incredulity that anybody would start an article with a lengthy quote from his new buke, a picture of a mural of the aforementioned quote, and then to say of his own quote: “I think that’s pretty spot on”. My eyes rolled back in my head on reading that. But this article is pretty brilliant from that point onwards, he sees both sides of this argument, and he sizes them up wonderfully. Do I agree with everything he said? Nope. But I enjoyed reading his thoughts on the matter. I’d read more.

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