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Comment #4860383 by IrishGravyTrain

IrishGravyTrain Mar 8th 2016, 9:06 AM #

Sack them all.

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"What employer could meet a 30% pay increase?" - all-out Luas strike now on the cards

"What employer could meet a 30% pay increase?" - all-out Luas strike now on the cards

Regarding the looming strikes on St Patrick’s Day, Easter Sunday, and Easter Monday, Luas operator Transdev says “from a commercial point of view those days make absolutely no difference to us”.

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    Favourite Colm Moran
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:07 AM

    It’s P45 time enough is enough.

    920
    Favourite The Girl
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:13 AM

    I’ll take the job. Please start a recruitment process. Sack the whole lot.

    832
    Favourite Daffy the Bear
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:16 AM

    I agree. Why do these guys think they should be entitled to almost double the starting salary of a Garda or nurse? Why should they expect more tha newly qualified doctors, engineers and other highly educated and skilled workers for unskilled work? Like the taxi drivers, their sense of entitlement is surreal.

    848
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:21 AM

    You could try that of course Mr. Gravytrain but then it’s likely the entire public transport network would grind to a halt as the train, Dart and bus drivers all came out in defense of their sacked colleagues.

    53
    Favourite Jason
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:27 AM

    Why would public sector workers have solidarity with private sector workers?

    515
    Favourite Not_Rod_Ten©
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:34 AM

    A day off would be handy

    101
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:35 AM

    Jason,

    Because both public and private sector workers ultimately share the same interests which is totally opposed to the interests of capital. Public and private sector are all members of the working class which consists of those who have been, currently are or will be required to sell their labour (manual or mental) in order to support themselves and their families. So this includes most workers, their children, pensioners, students, the unemployed etc. So the working class are the overwhelming majority in society and create the vast majority of wealth that humanity depends on.

    (There are other workers e.g. police, senior civil servants, senior media, legal and financial professionals etc who technically sell their labour but their interests are so entwined with the interests of capital that they cannot be considered part of the working class.)

    The capitalist class are not required to sell their labour in order to support themselves. Instead they employ the working class in order to accumulate profit by confiscating the excess wealth which the workers create over and above their wages. In addition they rent out their accumulated assets money, property etc in order to extract more profit from the working class. The capitalist class represent a tiny minority in society but hold an extraordinary amount of power and yield it to sustain the system which serves them so well.

    The capitalist system is preserved in large part by keeping the working class divided and fighting over the scraps so that we never look up and see who the real enemy is dining royally at our expense. They set us at each others throats under a variety of guises including religion, nationality, gender, race, working vs unemployed and of course public vs private sector, etc etc etc as they understand perfectly that a united working class means the end of their domination.

    43
    Favourite Jason Culligan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:36 AM

    They’re looking for a pay increase to bring them up to €55,000 a year for an ‘extra workload’ which Transdev have proven won’t materialise. They’re just trying to profit off the expansion of the Luas lines even though they know that new Luas drivers will be hired to handle the extra demand.

    It’s interesting to see Wally come out in defence of pure unjustified greed on the part of the drivers. A job which requires 6 weeks of training and they want €55,000 for it when Gardaí and nurses are receiving a fraction of that for much more specialised and critical work.

    498
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:40 AM

    Jason C,

    As explained many times now. Our graduate doctors and nurses salaries and working conditions are an insult. They’ve been savaged to pay for other’s debts along with the rest of our public services after the supposedly “efficient” private sector banking sector collapsed into an insolvent heap in its entirety in 2008.The problem is not that the Luas drivers are paid too much but that the professionals holding our social supports together are paid far far too little. So instead of trying to drag workers wages and working conditions down to the lowest common denominator we should be trying to lift people up.

    43
    Favourite Jason Culligan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:45 AM

    So you support blatant unfounded greed then Wally? As Transdev have stated, they’re willing to discuss a 30% pay rise if the drivers can offer any statistical reasoning as to why they should receive such a pay increase. The drivers refuse to do so as they know they have no reason to demand a ridiculous pay increase which will bring them up to €55,000 for an unskilled job.

    There is no justification for such a ludicrous pay demand.

    349
    Favourite justanothertaxpayer
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:46 AM

    How would Wally deal with the relative increases demanded by the next set of workers? I am pretty sure the street sweepers, bus drivers and other groups would require pre-rated increases to match.
    You can’t print the money for this one…

    159
    Favourite Duncan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:46 AM

    Wally in your wisdom please explain why you think they should get that much of an increase when clearly the company from a financial point can not afford it. It’s basic maths. The company isn’t making huge profits and hiding it. They don’t have enough revenue to cover the increase. How can you just justify the increase. Who’s going to pay for it.
    I’m all for fair wages but a business not covering it’s overhead is trading insolvent and can not last. That’s just stupid.

    178
    Favourite Alan Byrne
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:51 AM

    “Why would public sector workers have solidarity with private sector workers?”

    One word Jason – SIPTU

    67
    Favourite Miguel O'Reilly
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:58 AM

    @Wally I’m in favour of striking to a certain extent when it is justified. However this is clearly not justified in any way and is simply greed. The vast majority of the public are against this strike and have no sympathy for the drivers. I’d go as far as estimating that 95%+ are opposed to it.

    There are some AAA policies and ideas that I agree with and some I don’t. I get the impression that if these drivers were demanding 100,000 you would fully suppoort them. Would I be right? You would support them simply because it’s the done thing within your party. That makes you no different in my eyes to FG and FF etc who simply toe the party line and have to support whatever the party supports.

    Despite the fact that i agree with you on a number of things you have posted on the journal, this pareticular argument makes me view you in a completely different light.

    Defending greed is the same as being greedy.

    163
    Favourite Martin Critten
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    Mar 8th 2016, 9:59 AM

    Think Wally is simplistically following an ideological pattern which as always looks great in book form, but always found wanting when it comes to making things work in the here and now. Defending the indefensible most sertainly certainly. Heard all this working class guff back in the UK ‘Ad nauseam’ in the 70′s, and it’s old hat, because it closed more industries than started one. Think I’ve been in and out of working class through out different points in life as I get on with stuff. Never worked harder than when working for myself. Handing out labels like working class is self defeating and offensive to the potential we all have to excel in our own way. In fact it has its own inbuilt elements of ‘controlling’ the masses.

    95
    Favourite Paul Dunne
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:01 AM

    they are hiring 29 new drivers get your application in .

    97
    Favourite Cormac Mulhall
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:06 AM

    “So instead of trying to drag workers wages and working conditions down to the lowest common denominator we should be trying to lift people up.”

    But what you are proposing is essentially that. Any pay increase for the Transdev drivers will be paid out of increase in ticket prices, paid for by the “working class” you claim to care so deeply about, the people who rely on public transport to get to work each morning and who really would rather not have to be paying even more just to get to work.

    So every regular Luas commuter will have in effect a decrease in salary in terms of real money in their pockets, so that these drivers can have an increase in salary.

    The AAA seem to think money magically appears out of thin air. It doesn’t. Money shifts from one group to another. If you raise salaries for supermarket workers you increase the price of food in that supermarket which ends up being paid for by the customers of the supermarket. Their salaries in effect decrease to pay for the salaries of the supermarket worker.

    So it is always a balance. You cannot raise the salaries of these drivers without hurting the take home pay of other workers, so you better be damn sure that you are doing it fairly.

    Talking about just raising everyone’s salary is economic nonsense. And the usual “tax the rich” retoric won’t work either becuase this is a private company and BTW a salary of 55k puts these Luas drivers squarely into the well above the average working wage and well into the category of people who should be helping pay for poor people who are actually struggling.

    This is the problem with the AAA-PBP platform, “rich” is always someone else. Everyone is apparently struggling and need to be helped but no one is in the group of those who actually should be helping. Well sorry, a Luas driver making 55k a year is very much in the category of “people who make enough that they should be helping others”

    140
    Favourite The Dude
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:09 AM

    @Wally – Can’t believe that you have bought into this Marxist rubbish, conjured up by a 19th century atheistic satanist. This is the first time I’ve seen you have a go at religion – as being a capitalist device aimed at the so called worker class. Wally – I am being completely genuine when I quote Acts 16:31 to you “Believe in The Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved”. I’m not a Roman Catholic by the way.

    34
    Favourite Paul Dunne
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:12 AM

    that claim by dart drivers was as a result of an agreement between cie as it was then and drivers of extra payment for longer trains was signed when the dart started in the 80s,so the drivers just asked the company to honour their side it wasn’t based on greed it was part of an agreement.

    8
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:17 AM

    Jason C,

    If you consider a wage of €55k to be “blatant unfounded greed” then how would describe the salaries of the senior bank executives for example who earn 10, 20 or 100 times that figure?
    We have clear proof that the banker’s don’t deserve their inflated salaries and were catastrophically unskilled as they managed to crash the entire financial system and the Irish economy a few short years ago.

    The bankers produce nothing of value and their financial institutions are parasitic on the real economy and the workers. The Luas drivers provide a valuable service bring tens of thousands into and out of the city every day.

    The bankers’ huge wealth is hoarded and the vast majority of it will never circulate in the domestic economy. In contrast, the drivers will spend most or all of their €55 (less tax) into the local economy which pays other worker’s wages and supports other families as the macro economy is circular.
    Solidarity with the drivers and all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which we create. The great and largely unspoken divide in society is the one between capital and labour and the vast majority of us are on the labour side though many don’t seem to understand this.

    10
    Favourite Cormac Mulhall
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:25 AM

    @wally

    You talk about this as if there is a magic man in the sky handing out salaries to people and we just need to convince him to give some of the money he was giving to bankers to the Luas drivers.

    First off the average salary in AIB is 38k, so when you say “the bankers” I assume you mean the top level of management, not the thousands of people who work in the banking sector (who might wonder why they didn’t become Luas drivers)

    Secondly, the CEO of AIB doesn’t get the Luas. So how are you going to get his “inflated salary” into the hands of the Luas drivers?

    Of course you aren’t. You are going to take it from the AIB bank officer making 22k a year who gets the Luas into work each morning. But thats ok because banks are evil!, right?

    166
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:26 AM

    Cormac,

    Transdev is a private company which has no business operating the state owned light rail network. This allows private capital to profit from the collectively owned infrastructure. The private sector maximizes profits by increasing prices, downgrading the service or diminishing wages and working conditions We’ve multiple examples of this. The service should be run by the state with the twin objectives of providing an efficient service to the public and decent jobs for the workers. If profits are generated then these can be returned to the exchequer or be reflected in reduced fares to collectively benefit everyone.

    And talking about just raising everyone’s salary is most certainly not economic nonsense. Increasing the average industrial wage to say €45k would be very beneficial for the economy and society as whole.

    We’ve been conditioned to think that higher wages inevitable means higher prices. But equally higher wages could instead mean reduced profits (while keeping prices static) which would return a greater share of the wealth produced to labour and away from capital.

    As the data clearly shows, the trend over the past few decades has been overwhelmingly in the opposite direction with greater and greater wealth accumulating to capital owners and less and less to the workers. This has disastrous consequences for society and it’s long past time we stopped the rot.

    Paying all workers a decent wage is in the interests of the economy and society as a whole. Business in general wants its customers to have as much money in their pockets as possible to purchase their products and services and generate revenue and profit. In contrast, each individual firm wants to pay their workers as little as possible to reduce costs in order to maximize profit. In the macro economy, the workers ARE the customers and this glaring contradiction is lost on the slavering neo liberals eternally demanding wage cuts and ‘flexibility’ such as zero hour contracts in the labour market.

    It’s always aggregate demand and spending through the whole economy that ultimately creates and maintains jobs. Someone’s spending is always someone else’s job and income as the macro economy is circular. It is the aggregate spending of everyone in the economy, public, private, individuals and businesses that maintains and creates employment. We have seen the result of slashed government and private sector spending over the past 8 years of Austerity reflected in our massive dole queues, planes full of emigrants and mounting social problems such as the homelessness crisis.

    10
    Favourite Jason Culligan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:26 AM

    Wally,

    You again show very little insight into how the market works. Senior banking executives were paid serious wages because they delivered exactly what they were supposed to. Shareholders in private banking institutions invested their money to get a positive return on investment. This is generally attained through revenue growth. The major senior executives crashed the banking system simply by providing what shareholders, many of them working class individuals, wanted and those who opted for more sustainable growth were generally replaced. Now you’ll find that it’s the more cautious directors who tended to be given the back seat during the boom times are now coming to the fore as shareholders have realised that sustainable growth trumps wild investments which only look good on a spreadsheet.

    Your claim that banks hoard money is also laughable at best. The entire reason why banks exist is to facilitate the redistribution of capital from individuals or institutions who do not wish to spend money to other individuals or institutions which do. All banks would go out of business if they suddenly started to hoard capital.

    109
    Favourite Al
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:27 AM

    Always comparing everything back to bankers is ridiculous. Come up with a real argument.

    117
    Favourite Paul Dunne
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:31 AM

    don’t put any money on that one wally.

    37
    Favourite damien chaney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:44 AM

    Bus dart and rail are not public sector workers they are semi state workers

    33
    Favourite tommy macdonagh
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:46 AM

    just fire them all, it really is that easy. its not like it is skilled work

    59
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:46 AM

    Jason,

    Sorry, that’s just nonsensel. The shareholders in the Irish banks did not get a “positive return on investment”. They lost almost everything. And apparently you believe this was “providing what the shareholders wanted”. You also seem to believe that the banks executives and boards are appointed by ordinary “working class individuals”. Can you send on some evidence to support this please?

    As stated, bankers produce nothing of real value. What they do produce in vast quantities is new money by the simple act of pressing a computer keyboard each and every time they issue a loan:
    “By far the largest role in creating broad money is played by the banking sector…when banks make loans they create additional deposits for those that have borrowed.”

    http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/where-does-money-come-from

    They use this enormous privilege to fuel the periodic property bubbles that wreak economic havoc across the globe including the recent U.S and Irish ones.

    The finance sector is just one part of the wider capitalist support infrastructure including academia and the media which peddles the illusion that money is a scare resource. That is utter nonsense. Our fiat floating currency and money is created (and deleted) at will on the computer keyboards of the world’s commercial and central banks.

    It’s important to differentiate between money and real wealth/ resources. Money is how we measure wealth and also a claim on that wealth which society creates but it has no intrinsic value in itself. Money primarily exists as digits on a computer screens in the finance sector which at its core is just the vast sand rigged scoreboard of capitalism.

    At a macro/government level, there can always be as much (or as little) money circulating in the economy as there needs to be to create full employment and control inflation. Governments (except the ones in the monetary trap of the euro) spend their own currency into existence at will and then tax it back out of circulation in a continuous flow. Fundamentally, money is just a tool to measure and allocate resources.

    In contrast, the real wealth of goods and services that we all depend on is created by the labour and skill of the working class from the raw material of the planet. . Everything from the food in our bellies to the clothes on our backs right up to the most sophisticated technology is made by the workers.

    Money is a claim on that real wealth produced by the working class and this is where money derives it’s power. The capitalist system peddles the illusion that there is a shortage of money (balance the books, reduce the deficit, live within your means etc) in order to oppress and control the working class who are the real creators of wealth

    8
    Favourite tommy macdonagh
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:52 AM

    does anyone read wallys looney left rants :D

    124
    Favourite P.J. Nolan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:56 AM

    It shall be interesting the numbers that apply

    30
    Favourite Al
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:57 AM

    Tommy, I think people read the first line and then think maniac!
    Wally OUT!!

    63
    Favourite Jason Culligan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:57 AM

    “The finance sector is just one part of the wider capitalist support infrastructure including academia and the media which peddles the illusion that money is a scare resource.”

    I was going to post supporting evidence for my view that shareholder motivations were one of the main causes of the banking collapse until I re-read your post and saw that. Then I realised there’s no point as you’re so heavily invested in this ‘corporate conspiracy’ mindset that nothing will change your mind.

    I’ll just continue to laugh at your lack of economic insights and post this link below for anyone else who’s actually interested in understanding the root causes of the banking collapse:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Documents/ccbs/handbooks/pdf/ccbshb12.pdf

    60
    Favourite neuromancer
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:58 AM

    I don’t see taxi drivers going on strike or demanding fare increases. Last increase in fares was in 2008, which was 4%. Thats less than 1% a year.

    33
    Favourite Cormac Mulhall
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:58 AM

    “Transdev is a private company which has no business operating the state owned light rail network.”

    Great. So oppose this salary increase since these workers shouldn’t be getting comfortable off an immoral business practice that takes advantage of a state owned transport system. Or are the workers not “Transdev”? At what point does the employee of Transdev become “Transdev”

    “And talking about just raising everyone’s salary is most certainly not economic nonsense. Increasing the average industrial wage to say €45k would be very beneficial for the economy and society as whole.”

    Do you accept that it would raise the costs of goods that would have a knock on effect to families struggling to buy these goods? That if a supermarket has to pay every checkout person 45k a year that this will dramatically increase the cost of bread and milk in the supermarket, thus decreasing the real world wages of everyone who shops in that supermarket

    Or are we back to just pulling money out of the air to pay for all this?

    “We’ve been conditioned to think that higher wages inevitable means higher prices. But equally higher wages could instead mean reduced profits (while keeping prices static) which would return a greater share of the wealth produced to labour and away from capital.”

    No one has been “conditioned”. Some of us have bothered to learn a bit about economics, and others haven’t

    Increases in min-wage have been shown to help the economy, but that benefit drops off very quickly at a particular point because you can’t just take profits off businesses forever (some of which aren’t making profits). It is no more scientific to say that we can raise wages to anything we like than it is to say any increase in wages always hurts the economy. Both are arguing from ideology rather than reality.

    The Luas drivers are WAY passed the min-wage. An increase in driver salary to what they are asking stretches far beyond any possible profit Transdev make each year. The only way to pay for this increase would be to increase ticket prices, dramatically. That is not “conditioning”, it is basic maths.

    You seem to live in a world were every private corporation is falling over themselves in profit while paying employees nothing and all workers are struggling. The reality is that a lot of workers are not struggling, they are doing perfectly fine. I’m a worker, I’m doing perfectly fine, and I voted for a government that would tax me more. I’m not demanding a 30% pay increase on top of may salary that is already far above the national average. Despite that I know people who were on the same salary as me taken in by the AAA populist arguments out marching against property tax and water charges, not on behalf of those who make 28k a year, but for themselves say they didn’t want to pay. And AAA say you are a “worker” you shouldn’t have to pay anything.

    Most private companies do not make a profit for most of the time they are in existence. Most companies fail to ever make a profit and fail. The ones that do don’t make a profit for most of their existence, either not making a profit during the startup phase, and then not making profit during the expansion phases they need to do to stay in the markets.

    “As the data clearly shows, the trend over the past few decades has been overwhelmingly in the opposite direction with greater and greater wealth accumulating to capital owners and less and less to the workers. This has disastrous consequences for society and it’s long past time we stopped the rot.”

    Did you read Das Kapital for 20 minutes on the toilet once and now think you are an expert in this stuff. The vast majority of money is not transferring from the “workers” to the “capital owners”. Most money transfers from “workers” to “workers”. The money a worker spends on her Luas ticket pays for the salary of the Luas driver. A tiny amount of that ticket goes to the “captial owners” but most of it goes to the staff who work for Transdev.

    When the Luas drivers are asking for a pay increase it is the customers of the Luas who will pay for that. The customers who are probably making significantly less money than the Luas driver.

    So you explain why it is fair to ask a worker making 28k a year to pay for a Luas driver to get a 30%-50% pay increase? And why that Luas worker now making 55k shoudl be taxed to hell in order support the worker making 28k.

    There is not nearly enough “capital owners” in this country to compensate all the workers that need government support. And in case this hasn’t occurred to you if as you want we decrease the capital owners even more there will be even less. So which WORKERS are you prepared to lean on to provide the money for proper public services. Because to you it seems to not matter how much money you make, if you work for a living you are untouchable.

    69
    Favourite Assel Dannourah
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    Mar 8th 2016, 10:59 AM

    If they are like this now imagine what they be like once Luas is wide spread across the cityscape

    28
    Favourite Cormac Mulhall
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:02 AM

    Meant to say

    ” And why that Luas worker now making 55k should not be taxed to hell in order support the worker making 28k”

    Explain why the 55k a year Luas worker doesn’t fall into the “tax the rich” category that AAA seem to think is going to generate all our money”

    41
    Favourite Paul Heffernan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:05 AM

    What a truckload of tripe you spew!

    17
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:08 AM

    Jason,

    And those that exploit you will continue to laugh at your myopic ignorance.

    If you don’t believe me then perhaps you’ll believe the Bank of England who were forced to explain a few years ago that commercial banks do in fact create most of the money in circulation when they issue loans.

    “By far the largest role in creating broad money is played by the banking sector…when banks make loans they create additional deposits for those that have borrowed.”

    http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/where-does-money-come-from

    2
    Favourite P.J. Nolan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:11 AM

    Good man Wally keep digging

    40
    Favourite Paul Lanigan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:11 AM

    Then sack them too. We’d cope.

    36
    Favourite Paul Lanigan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:14 AM

    Wally, who do u work for? Just curious…

    36
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:18 AM

    Cormac,

    You asked if I accept that increasing the average industrial wage to €45k would increase the cost of goods. The answer is no.

    Increasing the amount of money in circulation through increasing worker’s pay does not cause inflation unless there is a shortage of goods & services to purchase with the additional money. And there is no shortage of virtually any real goods and services in the modern economy with the exception of property. (another catastrophic failure of the free market for the majority)

    This is so because private firms are quantity adjusters if they have spare output capacity. In order to maintain market share, they will increase output (and employment) to meet the increased demand which occurs when workers have more money in their pockets. Only if demand increases beyond the output capacity of the economy will firms increase prices. We are nowhere close to this point with the economy operating well below peak capacity with mass unemployment and underemployment.

    In other words there is no inflation risk in the creation of new money once there is sufficient real wealth of goods and services to absorb that additional money as clearly borne out in the data. Since the 1980s the global money supply has increased almost exponentially as the deregulated commercial banks massively increased their loan books and expanded the money supply (The money is uncreated as the loans are repaid but at a much slower pace). And yet there has been no hyperinflation that the monetarists continually hyperventilate about.

    http://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/how-much-money-have-banks-created/

    The elite have no issue with vast levels of money creation once it’s purpose is to enrich the financial sector through commercial bank lending to fuel property bubbles or via QE for example. But money creation to serve the interests of the majority is considered to be economic heresy. Interesting.

    1
    Favourite Jason Culligan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:19 AM

    Wally is partially correct when he states that money is generally created for loans but it’s not entirely correct. Mostly banks have the authority to create money in order to lend this out for a mortgage. When a bank loans you say €300,000 to buy a new home and slaps a 2% interest rate on this, that €300,000 is created in order for the bank to loan that money out.

    What he doesn’t mention is that this money is also removed from the economy as the loan is repaid over time. The only money in this equation that remains within the economy upon the conclusion of the repayments is the interest rate which the bank applies. Therefore banks can’t just ‘print’ money with a keystroke as he implies as this money will always be removed from circulation eventually to prevent a runaway devaluation of the currency.

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    Favourite David Saunders
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:26 AM

    Sack them to

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    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:27 AM

    Cormac,

    You asked:
    “So which WORKERS are you prepared to lean on to provide the money for proper public services.”

    You haven’t grasped the point that a lack of money is never a constraint at a macro government/central bank level. Governments create money at will via their central banks and can spend money into existence within the limits of the economy to produce goods and services to buy with the money.

    Therefore a sovereign floating currency issuing state e.g. Britain never needs to obtain its own currency from private sources through taxation. In this context, taxation should be seen as a way to reduce the spending power of corporations and the ultra wealthy rather than a government needing to obtain money to spend on infrastructure, utilities and its social program etc. The government will never face a shortage of its own money to implement its policies though it could of course have a lack of real resources e.g. skilled labor. Taxation should if it was operating democratically significantly reduce the wealth of the wealthiest corporations and individuals and so reduce their claim on the real resources which society has produced collectively.

    In practical terms, taxation still needs to happen as it serves 2 critical functions. Taxation is in reality is what actually ‘backs’ a fiat currency. Everybody needs to obtain the currency in order to pay their taxes which are payable only in the named currency and so everybody accepts the currency in payment for labour, goods etc. The government imposed tax liability creates a demand for the currency, ensures it is widely accepted and so gives the currency legitimacy.

    Secondly taxation is the mechanism by which money is removed from the economy. Government spending creates new money from nothing and puts it into circulation while taxation removes money from circulation and extinguishes it. Therefore the money supply does not expand beyond the ability of the economy to produce goods & services to purchase with the money in circulation and so prevents damaging levels of inflation.

    There can always be as much as there needs to be to pay for public services. Governments (except the ones in the monetary trap of the euro) spend their own currency into existence at will and then tax it back out of circulation in a continuous flow. Fundamentally, money is just a tool to measure and allocate resources.

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    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:40 AM

    On the contrary Jason. I’ve clearly explained that the money is extinguished as the loan is repaid in my post above:

    “The money is uncreated as the loans are repaid but at a much slower pace”

    But that bank lending has still vastly increased the global money supply but has not caused any “runaway devaluation of the currency.”

    Commercial banks don’t print money but they do create new money in the form of bank deposits via keystrokes each time they issue a loan which they then collect interest on having done nothing other than casually move a finger. We should be asking ourselves why private commercial institutions have been granted such power and privilege by our notional democracies.

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    Favourite Cormac Mulhall
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:41 AM

    “You asked if I accept that increasing the average industrial wage to €45k would increase the cost of goods. The answer is no.”

    Well then Jason is on the money, so to speak, your understanding of basic economics is laughable.

    “Increasing the amount of money in circulation through increasing worker’s pay does not cause inflation unless there is a shortage of goods & services to purchase with the additional money. And there is no shortage of virtually any real goods and services in the modern economy with the exception of property. (another catastrophic failure of the free market for the majority)”

    There is no shortage of any goods or services? What are you talking about? I must have imagined the milk I bough this morning costing a euro, it should have cost next to nothing consider there is unlimited milk. You might want to tell the farms there is unlimited milk.

    You seem to be arguing for leftist doctrine under the “perfect market” fallacy. Which is, odd, shall we say. The last time I had to explain the perfect market fallacy was to a ultra-capitalist libertarian who though doing away with government completely would create the fairest market imaginable and drive down cost of goods through unlimited competition.

    And inflation happens all the time. You jump at the end of your ramble from inflation to hyper-inflation which are different things. Are you saying inflation (not hyper-inflation) never happens?

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    Favourite Tensing Norgay
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    Mar 8th 2016, 11:55 AM

    Mooney , have people not tried to explain the err of your communist ways ? Yes Luas Driver do an important job , but is not an incredibly skill job . No university degree or apprenticeship required . The fact is, it is in the low end of the skill spectrum therefore should only attract a fair pay rate for that skill set . If we used your pay Logic then cardiologists , oncologists etc should be paid maybe a mill a year for their work ? Id love to see how long your health service could survive then ? or maybe you think they should be paid the same ?? get with the real word commy , it dosent work , folks are just not designed that way .

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    Favourite Steve Tracey
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    Mar 8th 2016, 12:12 PM

    Wally
    Working class is it not the working class IE general public who are suffering the most especially those who don’t have cars whether because they can’t afford one or can’t drive.

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    Favourite justanothertaxpayer
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    Mar 8th 2016, 12:39 PM

    Wally’s ‘economic’ model would be more correctly described as a pyramid scheme

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    Favourite Lucy Legacy
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    Mar 8th 2016, 12:46 PM

    Looks like it’s a one man show Wally

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    Favourite Chris O'Shea
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    Mar 8th 2016, 12:49 PM

    30 euros per hour to press a button ?

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    Favourite Shane Diffley
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    Mar 8th 2016, 1:28 PM

    If the avg industrial salary was that much you’d have no jobs wally. Supply and demand. Have you heard of it? Some traders can’t afford to pay that!

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    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 8th 2016, 1:43 PM

    Cormac,
    Stop squirming please.

    The global money supply has increased vastly since the 1980s due to expanded commercial bank lending as explained. This has not caused damaging levels of inflation, never mind hyperinflation in any of the world’s developed economies.

    The reason for this is simple. There are more than enough real goods and services produced to absorb the additional money. (This has precisely nothing to do with the perfect market fallacy)

    So your contentions that increasing worker’s wages and so the money in circulation would inevitably:

    “raise the costs of goods that would have a knock on effect to families struggling to buy these goods”

    Is demonstrably false as the data shows.

    If we gave everyone in Ireland €1000 tomorrow to be used only to purchase bread or milk, the price of those commodities would not rise appreciably for the simple reason that there is more than enough supply to meet demand. (Would you suddenly begin to drink 20 pints of milk a day simply because you had the money to do so? and (I never claimed that there was an unlimited supply of milk so you can drop that strawman argument)

    Significant price inflation only occurs when there is chronic excess demand relative to the capacity of the economy to produce output to meet that demand. And increasing the average industrial wage to 45k will not create chronic excess demand relative to productive output as explained.

    It would however increase aggregate demand and so drive increased employment and improve the living standards for the majority.

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    Favourite Duncan
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    Mar 8th 2016, 1:51 PM

    Wally you really are not connected to this world !!
    The company employing the Luas drivers is not profitable. So again I point out the simple complication in your crazy approach to business. How can you increase the salaries by up to 53% in a company that is not making money. Are you saying that the state should step in and take the hit. You talk about fairness fir all !! If a company makes no profit it’s not a viable company and by law is not allowed to trade !!
    On what basis other than your ideological Harry Potter approach can the increase in salaries be possible. I could understand an increase based on improvements or profits but a blind unjustifiable increase based on you thinking its their right is completely idiotic.

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    Favourite John Joseph McDermott
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    Mar 8th 2016, 3:32 PM

    They (and their union) are “social partners” of the politicians
    Only people in the real private sector get sacked.!
    60,000 p/a, plus pension paid plus bonus plus golden handshake, is the minimum “norm” in the quango riddled nation called Ireland.
    The poor are paying for it..

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    Favourite Billy@Rangers
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    Mar 8th 2016, 8:14 PM

    I agree that the nurses are underpaid,but the Gardai?what exactly do they do?they are so unprofessional it’s absolutely unreal,in fairness the Luas drivers do a great job.

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    Favourite IrishBlue
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    Mar 9th 2016, 7:02 AM

    Sir

    May I inquire as to where in the class system you would place senior trade unionists are they still part of the working class or are they as I now fear also tied up with the interests of Capital.

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