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Comment #2101174 by Marcus power

Marcus power Feb 8th 2014, 5:27 PM #

Religion is like a virus. …. and should be treated as such. … It had no place in a secular democracy except in places of worship and in the minds and hearts of believers. ….. Those who seek to impose their religious beliefs on others either directly or indirectly to deny rights and freedoms need to be reminded of the above points. ….. viral agents like the IONA Institute need to have the full weight of the law thrown against their underhanded and sneaky activities

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Pics: Pro-choice activists protest Spanish abortion plans at embassy in Dublin

Pics: Pro-choice activists protest Spanish abortion plans at embassy in Dublin

Draft legislation published by the Spanish government would make access to abortion more restricted in the country, with groups saying it will force women to go abroad for terminations.

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    Favourite James Roberts
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:04 PM

    Get a grip Marcus.

    So it’s wrong of people to seek to impose their religious beliefs but it’s fine and dandy for you to impose your beliefs on people you disagree with (Iona in this case, against whom you want the “law thrown” at them — whatever that means)?

    You don’t have to support Iona to support their right to exist.

    63
    Favourite Marcus power
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:23 PM

    James…I have a full grip. …I will not accept religious nut jobs putting me down due to fantasy stories about some bloke in Israel 2000 years ago. … If you want to believe in santa clause .. The tooth fairy or the easter bunny go ahead but don’t expect me to believe it too and have my rights denied or impinged upon….. Keep your religious nonsense in the privacy of your home or place or worship. … How dare you. .. sounds like you need to get a grip on reality

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    Favourite Charles Alexander
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:37 PM

    @Marcus power – let me guess, a Labour supporter!

    29
    Favourite James Roberts
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:40 PM

    What? So it’s not okay for “religious nut jobs to put you down” but it’s fine and dandy for you to put them down? And what? Have them arrested because you don’t like what they’re saying.

    Where are they expecting you (or me) to believe anything?

    But if they want to believe it, it’s their right.
    If they want to campaign on something because the Tooth Fairy told them to, that’s their right too.

    You don’t get to ban an organization (or have “the full wright of the law thrown against them) because you don’t like that they’re basing their campaign on what the Tooth Fairy said…

    51
    Favourite Nicole McCormack
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:44 PM

    Dead right Marcus

    32
    Favourite Marcus power
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:50 PM

    Charles. … No an independent here

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    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:54 PM

    So there is no good non religious argument against abortion??

    29
    Favourite Marcus power
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:56 PM

    James. … You’re not reading what I’ve written……. Read again. … I’m saying that religion is a private matter. … As is what I do with my body or in bed for that matter. … Keep your religion to yourself. … Don’t try to impose your views or superstitions on me …. That’s what I’m saying. … Don’t try to twist things around our look for a an argument with me … As I’m not interested

    46
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 6:57 PM

    Marcus a fetus is not your body nor the woman carrying its body

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    Favourite Marcus power
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:00 PM

    Htsfck…. exactly do is that woman’s choice what she does with her body. .. nobody else’s

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    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:03 PM

    exactly do is that woman’s choice what she does with her body. ..

    emm yeah sure whatever you say literate person

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    Favourite Marcus power
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:19 PM

    Hdsflkt…. Or whatever your name is. …. I’m very literate. …. Just can’t be bothered correcting my replies to silly postings. … Now. … have a good nite. … I’m off to my dictionary interpretation club

    42
    Favourite James Roberts
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:26 PM

    No one is trying to impose their religious beliefs on you.
    No one is talking about religion here.

    The arguments against abortion are biological, not religious.

    The pro-abortion Peter Singer put it best. Abortion is wrong because:
    It is wrong to kill an innocent human being.
    A human fetus is an innocent human being.
    Therefore it is wrong to kill a human fetus.

    Singer comments that defenders of abortion attack the second premise, suggesting that the fetus becomes a “human” or “alive” at some point after conception; however, Singer finds this argument flawed in that human development is a gradual process, and it is nearly impossible to mark a particular moment in time as the moment at which human life begins.

    (Peter Singers grounds for abortion is to attack the first premise).

    31
    Favourite Irish Revolution
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:28 PM

    The Iona Institute should be disbanded or else come under the same regulations that apply to political party’s. i.e. they must disclose where they get their funding from.

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    Favourite Nicole McCormack
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:33 PM

    A foetus is not a living being…..you prefer to kill the mothers that are alive?

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    Favourite Florence Nightingale
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:34 PM

    @James

    “So it’s wrong of people to seek to impose their religious beliefs but it’s fine and dandy for you to impose your beliefs on people you disagree with…”

    People who believe abortion is wrong are free to never have an abortion.

    People who are pro choice are, here in Ireland at least, bound by a law that favours the anti abortion position.

    People who are pro choice are not seeking to impose their beliefs on anyone. Someone who is anti abortion is perfectly free to remain in that position if abortion is ever made fully legal in this country. They will not be dragged against their will to the abortion clinic. They will not feel any more inclined to have an abortion just because it’s legal.

    A country that also caters for those that are pro choice is not stomping over the beliefs of the other side. Both sides remain free to live by their own set of beliefs or opinions.

    I find it hard to understand why people have such trouble comprehending such a basic concept.

    54
    Favourite Nicole McCormack
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    Feb 8th 2014, 7:50 PM

    Charles , let he guess….Lucinda supporter?

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    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:11 PM

    hey james I wrote a blog post on Singers personhood argument check it out http://seamyjamesy.wordpress.com/

    Florence – saying that ppl who are against abortion are free not to have one is like telling ppl against genocide they should shut up because they don’t have to commit genocide

    Grow and think for once

    Irish revolution more like populist media mouth piece

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    Favourite James Roberts
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:12 PM

    Nicole, a foetus is a living thing. If you think it’s not, then when does it become a living being?
    Or do you believe that life is somehow infused into the foetus at the instant of birth?
    There’s no biological difference between a foetus at 22 weeks inside the womb and one born premature at 22 weeks and now outside the womb.

    Florence: “People who believe abortion is wrong are free to never have an abortion.”
    That’s argument is fine if abortion only affected the woman, but it also affects her child.
    What you say is akin to saying: “People who believe drink driving is wrong are free to never to drink drive.”

    30
    Favourite John Everyman
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:17 PM

    Once again, you present your
    opinions as fact.

    It is not accepted as fact that a fetus is a baby; if it were why don’t we hear stories about the doctors being arrested for murder?

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    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:19 PM

    John I have provided a science based refute

    refute the science or the some part of the logic

    It is not accepted as fact that a fetus is a baby; if it were why don’t we hear stories about the doctors being arrested for murder?

    This shows how ignorant you are law and social norms do not trump science based reason

    15
    Favourite James Roberts
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:21 PM

    Good read, hdfsjkah.
    While I find Peter Singer’s beliefs appalling, he does at least follow his beliefs to their logical conclusion…

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    Favourite John Everyman
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:23 PM

    Might I remind you that you have yet to refute the RCOG study which demolished your assertions.

    And I ask again, if it is accepted as fact that a fetus is a baby, why are doctors not arrested.

    32
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:24 PM

    Yes to many people base moral right on how their own action make them feel
    for example an abortion is just like going to the dentist not pleasant but not the same as cutting the head off a 1 month old
    when in fact the consequences to the victim are the same
    just the perpetrator / benefactor doesn’t feel as bad as it is not a disgusting or impacting

    12
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:26 PM

    John I refuted it 5 seconds after you posted it
    They never said that a fetus was not human
    they said it can’t feel pain at that point of life

    16
    Favourite John Everyman
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:37 PM

    Eh no one has ever denied that the fetus is human; what is denied is whether or not a fetus is a baby. Try to keep up.

    And you have yet to refute the conclusion that, unlike babies, the contents of the womb is incapable of cognitive thought or reaction to external stimuli before 24 weeks.

    VITALLY important since the vast majority of terminations take place before week 10.

    32
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 8:42 PM

    baby is a colloquial word thats usually meant to mean immature or young human
    see I so far ahead Im about to lap you again

    And you have yet to refute the conclusion that, unlike babies, the contents of the womb is incapable of cognitive thought or reaction to external stimuli before 24 weeks.

    Thats a leap form their statement … maybe you should try the long jump
    also appeal to authority you’re outer there

    10
    Favourite executioner
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    Feb 8th 2014, 9:01 PM

    Not everyone shares your warped opinion,we aren’t living on planet krypton.

    5
    Favourite Nicole McCormack
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    Feb 8th 2014, 11:03 PM

    I smell youth defence.

    19
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 8th 2014, 11:04 PM

    I smell bs

    8
    Favourite Bridget
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    Feb 9th 2014, 12:06 AM

    Yes because Youth Defence are the only people against abortion

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    Favourite Bridget
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    Feb 9th 2014, 12:10 AM

    Well if its Human and Alive, do you not think that to End a Human Life, (just because it is at the start of its growing and developing) is just Wrong!

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    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 12:21 AM

    hdfsjkah,
    “Also Known as: Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam

    Description of Appeal to Authority

    An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

    Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
    Person A makes claim C about subject S.
    Therefore, C is true.
    This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

    This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.”
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

    Appealing to the RCOG is not a logical fallacy when discussing foetal development.
    And as 90% of abortions (in the UK) take place at a time that the foetus could not survive birth, your argument about it being a living being is more than a tad off, it has no chance of becoming a living being until it’s born, and it can’t survive that until at least week 21 thus far. Pre week 16 it will not be able to survive as it will be legally brain dead.

    12
    Favourite Nicole McCormack
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    Feb 9th 2014, 11:03 AM

    I knew I got that horrible smell.

    3
    Favourite Florence Nightingale
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    Feb 9th 2014, 11:17 AM

    @hdfs

    “…saying that ppl who are against abortion are free not to have one is like telling ppl against genocide they should shut up because they don’t have to commit genocide…”

    You have your opinion. You are allowed to have your opinion. I am okay with you having the opinion you do.

    On the other hand, you appear unable to accept that other people have opinions that differ to yours because you live in a very black and white world. And anyone who doesn’t share your opinion (an opinion you believe to be fundamentally correct) must therefore be absolutely wrong.

    And not only do you absolutely believe that they are wrong (after all, how can anyone be right except you), you must also prove to yourself and others on forums such as these that they are wrong.

    Finally, you appear to believe that a scientific approach is the ONLY approach to take in relation to abortion. Unfortunately, people are not just biology. And people do not live in a perfect bubble. Health, finances, societal prejudice, violent relationships, imminent death, fatal foetal syndrome, rape, failed contraception etc all play a part in the reasons why some women have abortions.

    You often use extreme analogies such as genocide and eugenics when it comes to the topic of abortion. But forced births are just as extreme because you dehumanise the woman and turn her into a baby-machine.

    6
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 12:35 PM

    @shanti you are wrong
    appeal to authority is just using the fact that someone has a title to mean they must be right

    I have suggested that John was attempting to use this approach and also the approach which you have used which is completely wrong and that is claiming that because a fetus lack the ability to fell pain they are not human. This is wrong plainly wrong and appeals to authority do not make up for this poor deduction on your behalf.

    @Florence sayingb that we do not live in a perfect world is a reason to kill is one of the most foolish arguments you have ever used

    The thing is woman have a choice use it responsibly insteadof killing

    2
    Favourite Florence Nightingale
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    Feb 9th 2014, 1:10 PM

    @klsgf9werupg;iwyrfg;piwy

    “…Saying that we do not live in a perfect world is a reason to kill is one of the most foolish arguments you have ever used…”

    Oh, I’ve got plenty more where that came from ;)

    Like I said, you live in a black and white world where grey is simply not an option. I prefer to live in the real world where grey is the mostly likely scenario.

    I’m comfortable with my position. You seem unable to simply have your own opinion and leave others to have theirs. The words you use in your comments appear to show that you are someone who must not only be absolutely right, but to be seen to be right.

    And at the bottom of it all, it appears to gall you that your opinions will make absolutely no difference to the decision a woman wants to make. If a woman does not wish to be pregnant, she will find a way, whether legal or illegal. That appears to be the thing that bothers you most of all (of course I could be wrong. No doubt you’ll vehemently tell me that this is the case).

    And I notice that you did not discuss any of the points I raised about the arguments you make. This is the most telling bit of all.

    5
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 1:20 PM

    So florence we should ignore all the social injustice because sure we live in an imperfect world
    where the strong can kill the weak

    I hope you are consistent in that belief

    I
    What points have you raised about my arguments all I see is personal attacks

    3
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 2:00 PM

    Actually, you have not only misused the appeal to authority fallacy (don’t like that link? Here’s some more..
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority)

    You then go on to use a straw man – NO ONE has argued against the humanity of the foetus, you insert that argument in order to build your straw man.
    Up until at the very least 16 weeks gestation the foetus is legally brain dead.
    Now, if a person in a coma is legally brain dead it is acceptable to terminate their life support. And the woman is acting as life support – so we argue that she should have the right to turn it off. At least until a point where the foetus could survive delivery. Because if that foetus is unwanted – it does not have the right to force another human being to act as life support.
    None of us has the right to force another person into anything.

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    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 2:04 PM

    Shanti demonstrate don’t quote definitions
    Discussion doesn’t work that way

    legally brain dead — LOL
    look up what that means before you use it
    See my kidney analogy below
    and STOP REPEATED ARGUMENTS I HAVE REFUTED MANY TIMES ALREADY

    1
    Favourite Florence Nightingale
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    Feb 9th 2014, 2:14 PM

    @Hdfs

    Demonstrate? You mean by writing a blog post?

    3
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 2:31 PM

    I’m sorry. Does backing up what I said with references bother you?
    Funny, it’s required in third level, just to show that you aren’t pulling it out of your ass..

    Just jumping up and down and throwing a tantrum because the evidence doesn’t say what you want it to does not a good argument make.

    5
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 2:40 PM

    quoting definition does not prove that I committed a fallacy

    As for your brain dead analogy
    see the difference between pathological ie being brain dead and physiological ie being a fetus
    as well as the philosophical difference between them

    1
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 3:01 PM

    You accused someone else of using the appeal to tradition fallacy because they referenced the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology on the subject of foetal development.
    They ARE the authority on that subject.

    It would only be an appeal to authority if he had made reference to an oncologists views on foetal development – because while they are a doctor, their field is cancer – not pregnancy.

    I have used references to demonstrate your error, John did not use an appeal to authority – he made reference to the relevant field of study – which is the caveat of the appeal to authority fallacy, it is ONLY a fallacy when the authority quoted is not an authority in that field.

    But you REFUSE to believe this, despite the fact that I can prove I am not making it up by referencing several sources..

    Ask yourself this. A woman gives birth to a foetus at 14 weeks gestation. Can that foetus be saved? Even with all of the medical interventions we have today, when you consider that the brain has not finished developing – what are the chances of survival?
    Now.. Try 10 weeks, the point where 80% of abortions have already taken place. Is that foetus capable of surviving birth?

    3
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 3:11 PM

    No Shanti I said that they used both an appeal to authority and poor deduction

    Shanti my issue is with the very flawed conclusions you reach from research

    If you read my blog you will notice I answered that question you asked in your last paragraph of your hysterical rant

    1
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 4:14 PM

    You said they used the appeal to authority, thereby proving that you do not understand the terms of said fallacy.
    You are also misrepresenting what was said, this is a straw man.

    You talk about the errors of mine and other people’s understanding of research, what about your blatant inability to understand logic despite having it explained by three different sources now, you still cannot see that you have used the term appeal to authority incorrectly.

    3
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 4:56 PM

    Poor deduction again Shanti
    I give up
    may god have mercy on your soul – lol

    2
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 5:00 PM

    Yes, perhaps you should give up, because while I can explain the error in your reasoning and provide examples and references, all you can do is toss out an accusation.

    3
    Favourite hdfsjkah
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    Feb 9th 2014, 5:03 PM

    LoL

    Shanti your ignorance of science and logic is painful

    I am more than welcome to have debate where you cannot shout like a spoilt little child

    2
    Favourite Shanti
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    Feb 9th 2014, 6:24 PM

    Be careful when pointing your finger, you always have three more pointing back at you.

    3
    Favourite Elaine Moriarty
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    Feb 10th 2014, 12:30 AM

    I agree with you a foetus is not as important as a woman who has a history and many years behind her and who could also possibly be an extremely distressed state and going through a terrible time and feels for herself a pregnancy and motherhood would bring more bad than good to her life, physical or mental health, this is what drives me mad, pushing the rights of the woman completely out of the way no matter what distress shes going through

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