Advertisement
This site uses cookies to improve your experience and to provide services and advertising. By continuing to browse, you agree to the use of cookies described in our Cookies Policy. You may change your settings at any time but this may impact on the functionality of the site. To learn more see our Cookies Policy.
OK
Dublin: 12 °C Tuesday 18 June, 2019

Comment #4969600 by Mr Grumble

Mr Grumble Apr 12th 2016, 9:28 AM #

SIPTU…… ENTITLEMENT WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY

| Share | Report this comment

Read the article where this comment appeared:

Update: All Luas staff placed on protective notice with immediate effect

Update: All Luas staff placed on protective notice with immediate effect

Siptu has said the letter has the potential to “create conditions for a shutdown” of the Luas service.

REPLIES

    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:21 AM

    I just want to point out an obvious hypocrisy on the part of a lot of people here. We are in the process of commemorating 1916 and one of it’s most influential leaders was a certain James Connolly. He was one of the very few with actual military experience and with his own private army he apparently controlled operations in the GPO. Connolly was a militant socialist who believed in the fundamental right of unionism and the right to withdraw labour. He supported UNSKILLED workers and the lockout of 1913 involved a lot of tram drivers. These workers would have had a relatively good jobs considering the cost of living at the time and apparently Wm Martin Murphy wasn’t a complete b*stard of an employer all the time. The 100 year symmetry is interesting. Now I don’t think Luas workers have it too bad and I think SIPTU have made a balls of the thing, but there should be no doubt that Connolly would support them regardless. You know it’s easy to say – oh sure weren’t they a great bunch of lads – from 100 years remove, but some things haven’t changed all that much and it’s interesting to see the reaction and viewpoint of some people here.

    100
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:31 AM

    @an beal
    They fought for fair treatment not the ability to make unreasonable demands and strangle hold the public.
    What people like you want to do is make it sound like the public are turning their backs on the foundation of our state. The reality is we are not prepared to be bullied for unreasonable demands.

    825
    Favourite Jason Culligan
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:32 AM

    The difference is that working conditions for unskilled labour 100 years ago were remarkably different to working conditions today.

    663
    Favourite Scarr
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:42 AM

    Beal – I would normally support workers in endeavours such as these, as I believe a fair wage such be enjoyed by all. The luas drivers already have a fair wage so can get stuffed.

    665
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:42 AM

    Who exactly decides what are reasonable demands though? I’m just pointing how people are saying oh its unskilled labour so they should be barely entitled to any form of industrial action or worse that it should be automated! It’s all relative. If you had a job in 1913 it was the difference between penury and relative comfort. They had jobs and yet those guys took huge risks to strike. Indeed it badly backfired on most of them and employers have had the upper-hand since in this state.

    39
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:48 AM

    Let me repeat SIPTU have not covered themselves in glory by any means and I don’t think they have served the workers well here, who are down on pay considerably as a result.

    74
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:51 AM

    Beal
    You are just making stuff up now. Unions are very powerful in this country.
    SIPTU are using the Luas drivers as pawns in order to get pay rises for other workers. Most people can see that.

    408
    Favourite David HIggins
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:55 AM

    no one is suggesting that they don’t have any entitlement to industrial action. People are disgusted that went on strike over the easter weekend, and, more importantly, they do not think that their pay claims have any basis in reality.
    There is no valid comparison between the tram workers in1913 and 2016 – in 2016 they have well paying jobs, paid holidays, bonuses for simply doing their job. They are going on strike over a pay claim that is about 8 times the rate of inflation.

    299
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 10:57 AM

    Kal, Unions have become largely powerless in one sense, certainly in terms of fighting for the workers, as they have jumped into bed with the government over the last 20 years. In another sense they are very powerful as organisations themselves in that they have become largely part of the establishment along with their overpaid “salaries”. The Government have now sub-contracted out so many services that they are happy for someone else to take the “hassle” of dealing with labour demands.

    30
    Favourite Sean O'Carroll
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:02 AM

    in My view the Luas drivers are doing a low skilled job, they work in a monopoly were there is no competition, they took NO PAY cut while lots of people lost there jobs, there contract give them a pay increase as the economy/cost of living increase, but as there is no inflation this has resulted in no increase, same with everyone. if they looked for a 2% maybe even 5%, grand but to ask for a double digit increase is pure greed. They already get ABOVE average wages. if you increase their pay, the ticket price & as a result all those on average & below average wages will be worse off, remember half the people get below average wages, do you think that a Luas Driver should get above average wages in a fair economy & if so WHO should get less than average,…

    324
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:09 AM

    I say again it’s all relative. In 1913 if you didn’t have a job then you there was no social safety net and you were in complete penury. Therefore you had even more reason to be grateful to your employer and less reason to strike on them. If a Luas driver was unemployed now he would be entitled to a hell of a lot in terms of social welfare and health and education etc. Their initial demands were ridiculous but everyone knows it was a starting point that SIPTU thought foolishly they could lever power with. Once again it is workers, both those driving trams and those trying to get to work that lose out.

    12
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:09 AM

    Beal
    Basically you are saying you are the only one who can see what is really happening. You are blind to actual reality the unions remain immensely powerful. They are well paid and are looking for unreasonable pay increases. That is the point and that is how the vast majority see it rather than blindly supporting workers.

    172
    Favourite Chris Kirk
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:14 AM

    The Luas workers are only down on pay because of their own greed. All Jack O’Connor is doing is taking advantage of the current lack of government and causing problems for everyone.

    225
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:20 AM

    God, “blindly supporting workers” – given the recent Panama “revelations”, the manner in which white collar crime has been treated in this country and the bailouts of banks, developers etc etc then a country that might blindly support workers doesn’t actually sound all that bad.

    25
    Favourite Jason Culligan
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:35 AM

    The actions of corrupt individuals does not excuse blatant extortion.

    222
    Favourite George Knight
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 11:59 AM

    @An_Beal_Bocht , Do you think that it is fair that others that use the transport system to get to their jobs that get paid less is fair? Do you think that James Connolly was thinking yes this shall give the LÚAS drivers the ability to hold a the company to ransom? if they do get what they want. that will mean a huge increase in fair will it not? This has been a pain for too long. 18% is a dam good increase in any wage. Plus it James Larkin that set up the Irish Transport Workers Union and the strikes

    120
    Favourite jane
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:01 PM

    Um sick of hearing this rubbish that Connolly would have supported Luas drivers. Connolly stood firmly against greed. This is greed, plain and simple.
    Also the public sector unions have immense power.

    223
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:04 PM

    I just can’t bring myself to support a multinational company that can easily hide their profits over and above workers from here as easily as others seem to be able to. I mean I was recently affected by this when I couldn’t get from Heuston station to where I was going and yet I still wouldn’t lay all the blame at the drivers feet. All I see is a booming capital city and less and less of the work seems to be benefitting the actual employees.

    17
    Favourite tommy macdonagh
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:04 PM

    have they been named and shamed yet?

    57
    Favourite George Knight
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:16 PM

    Yes but if you show up late is your job on the line? I would have to get 3 buses in order to get to my job. are you sure you are not a Luas driver trolling the comments? it is about time they start letting them go. in any other europan city the tram drivers do not get as much as here. So I am sure a few of the lads be happy to come over here if all drivers were suspended for a few weeks un paid.

    140
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:21 PM

    Jane, please don’t get me started on public sector unions. Their “power” is a total mirage. They have become just another arm of government through the social partnership scheme dreamt up by Bertie and others. They are just a puppet go between the government and workers. They have sold out time and again. They sold out the graduate teachers, nurses and gardai. Their main interest is in pay as this is also an increase for them, class sizes, gardai numbers, worker conditions are pale second after-thoughts.

    20
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:25 PM

    Compare the working rights of a teacher or nurse in the 70′s or 80′s to the mess now – unstable contracts, unnecessary paper work, increased hours purely for the sake of it to keep certain salaries inflated, the level of sub-contracting in the public sector is through the roof which is privatisation by the back door and fills the likes of the Healy-Rae’s pockets. Procurement is the biggest department in most governmental agencies now.

    22
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:27 PM

    Beal
    There you go we have the root of your problem self identified. You don’t care what is reasonable pay request you just hate multinationals. You are prepared to blindly support a workers.
    You aren’t using reason.

    114
    Favourite jane
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:37 PM

    Beal Bocht benchmarking increased wages in the public sector on a massive scale right across the board and brought their wage up to one of the highest in Europe. I know teachers and nurses and guards deserve what they get and more but there are swathes of the public sector doing sweet FA for years and getting very well paid for it.

    103
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:41 PM

    Evidence please of swathes of the public sector doing sweet FA and getting well paid for it. Or have you been the sold by the print media and their vicious attempt to divide the public and private sectors who both have poorly paid employees. I worked in the public sector from 03 to 08 and people actually laughed in my face when I told them my salary.

    22
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:44 PM

    Not only that but I worked longer hours than teachers, had more qualifications and dealt with way more abuse than them.

    12
    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:48 PM

    Kal, I don’t hate them at all, I just have a healthy mistrust of them and their accountants, if you worked for them you would understand. Tell me exactly how I’m not using reason.

    10
    Favourite jane
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:51 PM

    I worked in it too. I worked in private sector and took a huge pay cut to go into public service within about 2 years I was back up to what I’d been earning in private sector for way less hours and a 9 to 5 Mon to Fri job. I have seen it first hand and although I’m no longer in public sector I see it constantly in the area I’m in now with the dealings I have with LAs.

    91
    Favourite mac.kerel
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 12:56 PM

    I suspect Beal is a new incarnation of Wally…

    94
    Favourite TheBull
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:02 PM

    Who decides what’s unreasonable? Society. And society has decided a tram driver shouldn’t be earning more than the national industrial wage. It’s literally a job a trained monkey could do.

    94
    Favourite The Destroyer
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:10 PM

    @Mackeral.. thats what we need.. two fecking eejits on here spouting sh*te.. These “workers” are grossly overpaid as they are for doing a simple job that yes could be automated.. They are making it hard for thousands of people that depend on this service to get to work(me included). Absolute joke.. And no Connolly would not support them. He would be ashamed at what greed these people are showing and what the unions have turned into.

    75
    Favourite Donal Hogan
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:16 PM

    These workers were offered an 18% increase over 2.5 years. You can’t compare this with the 1913 lockout or 1916.

    84
    Favourite Micheál De Bhaldraithe
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:19 PM

    But it is benefiting the employees and every one of us. Transdev are paid a set fee for providing the service and the increase in profits resulting from the increase in passenger numbers goes to the exchequer, repaying the initial investment in the luas and providing for future investment in infrastructure. take that money out and only a minority benefit, i.e. the drivers. solidarity my ass. Sack em.

    77
    Favourite ginger tomcat
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:38 PM

    Connolly supported mistreated workers in need of help, not greedy employees with sense of entitlement. I would argue unions have betrayed Connolly ideals. fat cat salaries enjoyed by union leaders and putting needs of a few ahead of societies needs are contradictory to the grateful man’s views

    65
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:41 PM

    Beal
    You aren’t using logic or reason by starting with an assumption. I have worked in private and public service again you assumed I and others here haven’t furthering your bad judgment.
    You have specified you believe that multinationals are hiding profit. At least inferring that this is the case with the Luas. All of which shows obvious bias. If you think that is all reasonable then you don’t understand reason or logic

    40
    Favourite dowthebow
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 1:58 PM

    Because of unions and struggles similar to this, or do you think it was because of the generosity of multinationals??

    3
    Favourite Patlyndo
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 2:22 PM

    You should start at the hypocrisy of Jack O’Connor on a eye watering salary in excess of 100k (Plus expenses plus pension contributions) before you start preaching your rubbish here/

    64
    Favourite tommy macdonagh
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 3:51 PM

    it high time these disgraceful drivers were make an example of :)

    49
    Favourite Sean Griffin
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 4:05 PM

    I don’t support the Luas drivers because I think they are well paid already for the job they do, which is not overly difficult and can be done with 7 weeks training. However, I’d draw the line at a Luas driven by a monkey, trained or not…

    58
    Favourite Chris Kirk
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 4:22 PM

    The only thing that is relative is that if the few Luas workers get more pay then transport fares will have rise for everyone else…..applied logic.

    31
    Favourite tommy macdonagh
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 4:31 PM

    automate the luas and just delete the drivers :)

    52
    Favourite Irish Spider-Man
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 4:38 PM

    I blame SIPTU

    1
    Favourite ironballs mcginty
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 5:49 PM

    Beal bocht No Connolly would be support real working class on low pay, zero hours contracts etc. The relative t&c’s between then and now are miles apart.

    37
    Favourite Buster VL
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 6:24 PM

    The commuter decides!

    21
    Favourite Buster VL
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 6:28 PM

    Here we go again… What about the bankers….blah… What about Panama blah ..

    33
    Favourite Buster VL
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 6:32 PM

    Jane yes, you are right. Benchmarking shifted the balance hugely in favour of the public sector, at the expense of the private sector workers.

    37
    Favourite Peadar O'Ruadhán
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 6:40 PM

    And for that 18% over 2.5 for a segment of the drivers, all of the drivers would be required to work longer hour, and as well new entrants would face a pay cut, with a longer salary scale.

    The WRC deal amounted to bringing in Yellow pack contracts for new staff.

    We hear Enda and co spouting all of the time about this ‘recovery’ but when some workers demand a better share of the pie, they are demonised in the press, and the crucified by the public.

    For those that object to the fact that the luas workers get paid more than starting nurses or themselves etc. I put this question to them. Will a defeat of the luas drivers put a single penny into a nurses pocket, and will it make it easier or more difficult for them to win better wages and conditions for these other jobs?

    10
    Favourite Patlyndo
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 7:29 PM

    “And for that 18% over 2.5 for a segment of the drivers, all of the drivers would be required to work longer hour, and as well new entrants would face a pay cut, with a longer salary scale.”

    New entrants are already on a lower pay – the LUAS staff and SIPTU agreed to this in 2010.

    The LUAS drivers want new staff to do unsocial hours – because they’re new/

    You can’t fight for “equality” when it suits and then treat newer staff differently at the same time.

    The “extra” hours, was still within their 39 hours per week that they are contracted to do

    Normal
    Weekly
    Hours of
    work
    Contracted for 39 hours
    Work average 35.45 hours
    Contracted for 39 hours
    Work average 37.20 hours
    Contracted for 39 hours
    Work average 37.26 hours
    Contracted 39 hours
    Work average 37.5 hours

    It’s called negotiating – they should have tried it.

    31
    Favourite Peadar O'Ruadhán
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 7:57 PM

    New Entrants would have been starting on a lower payscale, than the lowest paid on the existing payscale, under the WRC deal.

    1
    Favourite Patlyndo
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 8:43 PM

    New entrants are already on lower pay, as agreed by the union and the staff in 2010 – that sacred seal has already been broken.

    22
    Favourite ironballs mcginty
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 9:01 PM

    Patlyndo Very well put. Most public arent aware that luas union actually want to shaft new entrants to the job by getting them to do the unsocial hours. Most public arent aware that luas drivers previously voted for lower wages for new entrants. Mean and greedy… yet suported by AAA… You couldnt wmnake this stuff up.

    23
    Favourite Patlyndo
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 12th 2016, 9:38 PM

    I find that ironic mcginty – claiming to want equality for newer drivers, while demanding that they do the unsocial hours – crazy stuff altogether.

    15
    Favourite Martin Gallagher
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 13th 2016, 12:56 AM

    So what’s your argument for going back to dark those days Herr Culligan? Zero hour contracts for ordinary workers and ‘high end’ wealth ownership entitlement to tax heavens?
    Whoever taught you such divisive economics and social values should be shot with balls of their own shite, I’d say.

    1
    Favourite Peadar O'Ruadhán
    Hide Comment
    Report as Defamatory
    Report this Comment
    Apr 13th 2016, 2:57 PM

    I’m not sure about previous votes, but I do know that they refused to sell out new starts this time. So please tell me how the union wants to shaft new entrants

    1