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Comment #6609289 by DarkHorse

DarkHorse Oct 22nd 2017, 7:53 PM #

The whole #metoo thing reduces a serious issue to a social media trend

There are a lot of people using it to condemn or call out morally dubious/desperate behaviour as opposed to actual abuse

This just undermines actual victims of abuse

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Read the article where this comment appeared:

#MeToo: 'I have been drugged twice by men I knew'

#MeToo: 'I have been drugged twice by men I knew'

#MeToo was spawned by the Harvey Weinstein revelations and is where women are detailing incidences of sexual assault and harassment online.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 8:27 PM

    @DarkHorse: Does it? How is that? The point of the trend – which was thought up by another woman about ten years ago – was to highlight the prevalence of sexual violence across the globe. Survivors are not obligated to tell their stories. And not all people have been the victims of serious sexually based crimes. But a lot have been subjected to inappropriate comments and behaviour in professional and personal settings. This behaviour, while once considered okay, is not. And while some people may not be bothered by it, that is the slippery slope, and some people do not, or refuse to recognise, the line.

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    Favourite DarkHorse
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:04 PM

    @Felicity Hensen:

    You say the point of the trend was to highlight the prevalence of sexual violence. You then go on to say that not all of the stories involved are about sexual crimes but often relate to inappropriate comments.

    By your own admission the trend has blurred the line between it’s original objective and that of morally dubious behaviour.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:16 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: You cannot legislate for good manners nor have ultimate control over people’s behaviour. Social attitudes change over time organically. To legislate and put into law, let’s say making inappropriate comments illegal or fining people for cat calling… is not the right solution. It is too difficult to enforce and prove something like that and it is wide open to misinterpretation and abuse. The best course of action, if say a colleague makes an inappropriate comment, is to tell him or her to fucķ off. Stand up for yourself. If you are in real danger, call for help or run. There will always be dangerous people and asshoĺes in society and unfortunately no law can prevent that, unless you live in 1984 or Minority Report, which we don’t.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:16 PM

    @DarkHorse: There are degrees of violence, therefore there are degrees to sexual violence. I specified crimes because not all forms of what would be considered sexual violence are classified under legislation as criminal behaviour, such as cat-calling. You, and others, may consider cat-calling as moralling dubious, I don’t. The line seems to only be blurring for people who do not consider this to be as an encompassing problem as it is. The disparaging comments relating to the writer’s brother being sexually assaulted show this.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:28 PM

    @Rob Poonmeister: And what you’re witness to now is an attempt to change social attitudes. What you’re also witness to, and a participant in given your attitude of feminists, is the resistence to this change. While you think such legislation is not the right solution, I disagree. I would happily welcome legislation that would mean there was a consequence for someone in a car shouting slut at a pedestrian, as has happened to me on a few occasions. I agree it would be challenging to police, but it’s a start. I do stand up for myself. But what you don’t understand is the nuance that accompanies doing this, because gauging possible response is always necessary.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:53 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: Are you serious? You want to use up police resources to come save you when some dicķhead shouts something at you? Come on, they have better things to do. I’m afraid you just have to get over it. They could be saving some young girl from being raped instead of doing that. They do not have the resources to deal with hurt feelings and they never will.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 10:04 PM

    @Rob Poonmeister: “I’m afraid you just have to get over it.” – Thank you so much for that, because hurt feelings was my point. You are deliberately ignoring that if you accept this behaviour you allow the lines of what else should be accepted to keep being pushed. I, nor anyone else, should have to be subjected to some d#ckhead shouting whatever they want at another person with impunity. We have traffic and litter wardens. We could very easily have wardens to enforce legislation concerning street harassment.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 10:16 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: Morality police basically. Sounds great. And who do you think you are that you can force these policies on society? Your logic does not make any sense. Man shouts at woman and there are no repercussions, then what? He’ll progress to more egregious behaviour? Is shouting a gateway drug or something?

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 10:18 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: I’m sure you are a lovely person but you are coming across as such an authoritarian with your solutions.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:00 PM

    @Rob Poonmeister: This is not an issue of morality. This is an issue of behaviour, specifically in public – but would obviously cross over into a personal sphere. I am not alone in thinking that people should be able to go about their day without being subjected to (verbal) harassment, sexual or otherwise. And given that I a citizen of Ireland I have every right to expect to live in such a society. Who are you to say to me that I should accept otherwise? Because in saying that to me you are also saying to the significant females in your life that they should also accept this behaviour as a normal part of their day. And then if the gloves come off entirely, all males will also have to accept be subject to such behaviour from females; females to females; males to males. Wom’t that be great.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:11 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: You are reaching for an unobtainable goal. Nothing will ever be good enough. I agree, you should not have to put up with harassment occasionally but guess what, EVERYBODY DOES. That’s just life. Why are you collectivising women like this? Do you think every woman gets sexually harassed every day?

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:21 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: Just to pick up on something you said earlier, you said I am now witnessing an attempt to change social attitudes. That is not the whole story. It is an attempt to FORCEFULLY change social attitudes. Therein lies the problem. We both want the same results, we just have different methods of trying to get there. I actually defended the author of this piece unlike some, so for you to say that I’m part of La Resistance is true in some ways but quite unfair in others. I think maybe you’re annoyed that I criticised your ideology. From my perspective, this intersectional feminism malarkey is like a religion.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:25 PM

    @Rob Poonmeister: Am I? I find it very interesting that across the board of conversations regarding combatting sexual violence, those calling for significant action keep being told it’s unobtainable- because some people are and will always be rapists, etc. Which is saying that people will just have to accept that they may be the victim of a sexually based crime – but if you make certain changes you can help ensure it happens to someone else. No, I don’t think everyone woman gets sexually harassed every day. But I do think all females have at some point experienced at least one instance of sexual harassment. That is not acceptable.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:39 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: Felicity, some people are rapists and there will always be rapists. It is disgusting. I absolutely wish it was not the case. But that is reality. It is impossible to completely stamp out any awful behaviour. There will always be murderers also. Your argument is that allowing harassment is a slippery slope, therefore it should be illegal. You have provided zero evidence for this claim and I don’t even know how you could prove that. You want police or “wardens” to police your policy, someone has to enforce it in the real world. How many hundreds of thousands of these wardens would you need to stamp out lewd comment or cat calling. It is not practical nor possible.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 12:11 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: If you were alive approximately one hundred plus years ago you would have been witness to the suffragette movement. A movement, which after getting no where asking nicely, was forcefully attempting to have voting rights granted, by men, to women. The propaganda backlash to the movement was that female voting rights was a precursor to the downfall of society. Suffragettes were imprisoned, force-fed, killed, lost their jobs, & had their children taken from them. For wanting to vote. It’s very easy for you to take the position that all females have to do is ask nicely. As one, let me strenuously clarify; It. Doesn’t. Work. You can see that yourself with some of the comments on this article alone.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 12:19 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: Please stop saying there’ll always be rapists like there’ll always be murderers. Because we aren’t talking about outliers. You can be safely assured you have at least one rapist in you close sphere. You can be safely assured you have at least one rape survivor in you close sphere. The number is too high. It’s too f*cking high. The number of sexual assault and abuse survivors is too high. This is an all encompassing societal problem. I am under no illusions that legislation to tackle street harassment is a panacea. But we need to keep working on ending the epidemic of sexual violence. And if the possibility of a legislative consequence at being caught harassing someone on the street is one way, then why not try it.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 12:28 AM

    @Felicity Hensen: Incredible and brave women no doubt. They were campaigning to be judged as equals yes? How do you think they would feel about having special laws just for women or policies to give woman a privilege when applying for jobs i.e gender quotas. I don’t know but I suspect they might think it’s rather patronising. And I can’t find stats for Ireland but only 9% of British woman consider themselves feminists. What gives you the right the implement an aristocracy over all of society, when 91% of the people you’re advocating for do not even identify with your movement. And please don’t do the women of the UK the disservice of claiming that they’re just not educated or enlightened enough about feminism and what it really means to be a feminist.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 12:35 AM

    @Felicity Hensen: Im all for reducing rape and sexual assault just as much as you. I have two young daughters so I am in no way indifferent to this issue okay? Do me one favour. Look at Sweden with it self described feminist government. Look at their rape and sexual assault stats. Is it getting worse or better?

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 1:00 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: I honestly have no idea. Maybe they wouldn’t be able to believe that over the span of a hundred plus years not all that much has changed. The only reason gender quotas are sometimes needed is because equality is not happening organically, or are females supposed to wait another couple of hundred years? And do you feel the same about minority quotas? I am curious as to what definition you have of feminism. Because, to me, feminism means wanting people of all genders to be seen and treated as equals, and to be given equal opportunity – based on their capabilites.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 1:07 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: Feminism is not a cure for sexually based crimes. Laying responsibility at the feet of a “self-described feminist government” is removing responsibility from the perpetrators. Maybe you might want to consider if the rise in sexual violence is a tactic to instill fear in females and put them back in their place. Or maybe the rise in numbers is because more people are reporting crimes. It’s quite difficult to know. But if you want a safer environment for your daughters, you may want to leave off the feminism bashing and focus on ensuring that perpetrators are held 100% accountable for their behaviour. That children are taught about bodily autonomy & consent, & the same for adults, and that you call out instances of sexual violence.

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 1:26 AM

    @Felicity Hensen: We’re getting our wires crossed. My definition of feminism and yours are not the same. The meaning of words changes over time and this is a good example. For instance, modern feminism does not advocate the same things that early feminist movements did, agreed? They won. Women can vote and work with zero institutional barriers in front of them, have sexual autonomy etc… Mission accomplished. So what is next on the list that is still to be accomplished? What are your ultimate goals now?

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    Favourite Rob Poonmeister
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 1:40 AM

    @Felicity Hensen: BTW you just totally contradicted yourself. You said you want people of all genders to be seen and treated as equals and given equal opportunity. Well if I apply for a job and they say oh sorry we want to hire a woman to increase parity, then how are we being treated equally and given the same opportunity? They are saying to me, sorry you were born with the wrong genitals so you cannot work here. Does that not sound sexist to you? I mean like, they would be discriminating against me based on my gender. If that’s not sexism then what would you call that?

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    Oct 23rd 2017, 8:07 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: I’d be grateful if you would provide credible citations for your assertions regarding the alterations in early and modern feminists agendas. Honestly, that you think feminism has won is making me smile, because that is utterly absurd and you clearly wrote it to garner a laugh. Well, I’ll have to convene a meeting which may take some time as it’s well ahead of the scheduled global annual meeting of feminists to be able to answer your last two questions. Unless you specifically meant my goals, which is obviously world domination through the subjugation of males.

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    Favourite Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 8:18 AM

    @Rob Poonmeister: How have I contradicted myself? Yes, all genders should be seen and treated as equals. In you example, you assume you will be advised that you were successful in your application but because of filling a gender quota, the job was given to a female applicant. I don’t see you being told this information. You also don’t appear to recognise that where you’ve applied to is under necessity of filling a gender quota by demand because they aren’t doing so voluntarily. Would you not question why they aren’t hiring female employees? Or do you wish to work in an all male environment? Yeah, reverse sexism isn’t a thing. Why is that? Well that’s because you’re not fighting for rights and the same opportunities, you’re arguing I don’t want to have to share.

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    Oct 23rd 2017, 10:40 AM

    @Felicity Hensen: You are defending the indefensible. That’s why I said modern feminism is like a religion. Just look at your cognitive dissonance. Reverse sexism isn’t a thing? What a load of absolute shit. Sexism is sexism simple as that, it’s not a one way only phenomenon. Gender quotas are discriminatory no matter what way you look at it. The fact that you think it isn’t, only demonstrates how utterly indoctrinated you are.

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    Oct 23rd 2017, 6:03 PM

    @Rob Poonmeister: Am I? Huh. I note you didn’t answer any of my questions regarding why the quota might be mecessary. Nor did you answer my earlier question regarding the necessity of minority quotas.

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