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Comment #4851083 by Eamonn Boylan

Eamonn Boylan Mar 5th 2016, 8:09 AM #

Water tax will be abolished..I’ll be delighted if Right2Water get what we all want, a referendum to enshrine ownership of our water supply in public hands, preventing another Irish Water fiasco in future.

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Abolishing water charges is a return to the policies that collapsed our economy

Abolishing water charges is a return to the policies that collapsed our economy

Troika observers reading our newspapers must be banging their heads against their desks and screaming at their monitors: “You’re. Screwing. It. Up. Again.”

REPLIES

    Favourite P. ENNIS
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:23 AM

    I hope they do get abolished because if i have to cough up all the ones i haven’t paid so far the kids and misses can forget about canary islands this june.

    249
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:29 AM

    Wrong Mr. McKenna. Your headine should read:

    “The water charges are a symptom of the policies that collapsed our economy”. That is loading a colossal private banking debt onto the public finances.

    You also failed to explain that our budget deficit only matters because we use a a currency which we don’t control. The “fiscal foundations of our state” were undermined when we joined the Euro , led into the monetary trap by our establishment political and capitalist class.

    581
    Favourite MK76
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:37 AM

    @ Eammon: Who’s “we all”. Those of us who disagree with mé feinism and are interested in the future of our water infrastructure support water charges.

    @Waddler: When are the LLA going to start talking about forming a gov’t or like you, are they only good at socialist musings and have zero interest in making a positive contribution to Irish society?

    187
    Favourite Ron Koeman
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:52 AM

    I’d pay my water charges if I didn’t think FG planned to flog it to DOB for a song so he could charge people €1000 a year for water.

    531
    Favourite D H
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:58 AM

    Ron its not going to stop at €1000 a year. Once the cap is lifted and IW wants to become a profitable entity you can expect charges up to €2000 per yr

    394
    Favourite MK76
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:01 AM

    D H. What is the basis of your OPINION?

    98
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:04 AM

    Ah yes MK, those “looney lefties” who loaded €100+ billion of private, odious and illegitimate banking debt on to the backs of the people and broke the economy. Oh no wait………………That was the entire right wing establishment of FF, FG and Labour

    The inability for to form a “stable” government is primarily a problem for the capitalist class which you represent, not for the working class which the AAA represents. We’ve had a very stable government for the past 5 years which has deliberately crushed the welfare of the majority of their people resulting in mass unemployment, mass emigration, a homeless crisis, crumbling social services etc etc etc.

    There be no deals with our class enemies. Best you get talking to Mr. Lowry.

    351
    Favourite Enda Ireland
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:07 AM

    The only people that cant except Irish Water is finished are the media and Pat Kenny on news talk water.

    338
    Favourite MK76
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:09 AM

    Like I said Waddler, only good at socialist musings. Nothing of substance to offer, much like your Comrades in the Dail.

    79
    Favourite D H
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:29 AM

    The basis for my opinion is a for profit company is exactly that , for profit. We are already told that IW needs to invest upwards of 6b in our water infra structure to upgrade the system. The taxpayer is subsidising IW for the next 3 yrs to the tune of 1.3 b . IW will soon be paying their bonus scheme to its employees. MK where do you think all this money is going to come from??? We are told that IW will be self sustaining yet they try to tell us not to worry , our charges are only €3 per week….wake up. IW will be free to jack up the prices soon and when they are we will be lucky if we are only paying 2000 per yr. There are not enough customers in the country to keep IW both profitable and affordable

    251
    Favourite Frank Cauldhame
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:31 AM

    The troika don’t like it, awww, the people don’t like it that no Irish bankers/developers have been jailed for the colossal fraud they committed which led to our crash, jeesh.

    291
    Favourite Darbey
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:44 AM

    I’m working class so I know what it’s like to at times look at more going out than coming in…..

    Sometimes you have to borrow to get through a bad patch….. To do that you want lenders willing to give you what you need at a reasonable cost…… To get that you better not have welched on paying them back a month before.

    To anyone with any form of pension….. You are a bondholder! Pension funds in the mid 2000s saw out banks as stable and highly profitable businesses. The idea of burning bondholders would have killed the income of existing pensioners and destroyed the value of most Irish funds.

    72
    Favourite the asian nightmare
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:47 AM

    I have no problem paying for water through general taxation but Irish Water is a bloated, bureaucratic nightmare beast of the HSE’s ilk. I refuse to pay for another badly thought out, administrator heavy concern. Do it properly and we’ll talk.

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    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:48 AM

    Here’s a little substance MK. Apple Corp owes us an estimated €17 billion in back taxes. If the Irish government stopped fighting through the European courts to relieve Apple of this tax obligation we could use this vast sum to repair the water infrastructure, resolve the housing crisis (with the construction of 80 to 100k houses) and still have several billions left over to reverse some of the savage cuts imposed on the working class to pay for the banker’s debts.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-may-face-censure-over-apple-tax-dealings-1.2340472

    This however would require an Irish government acting in the interest of the majority of its population instead of the interests of capital and we haven’t had one of those in the history of the state so far.

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    Favourite David Murphey
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:53 AM

    “Apple Corp owes us an estimated €17 billion in back taxes.”

    It does not.

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    Favourite Bren MC
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:59 AM

    Yes I did the maths at one stage and using their 10 year projection/time and it worked out around € 1750 p.a.

    72
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:59 AM

    Darbey,

    It’s only the Eurozone countries that are required to borrow their own currency in the market at an interest rate determined by the market. Fiat currency issuing nations like the U.S and U.K do not need to obtain dollars and sterling from the bond markets to finance a budget deficit or indeed to cover private banking debt in the domestic currency. When they do choose to issue government bonds the primary objective is to implement monetary policy (e.g. drive their chosen base interest rate to target) not as a necessity to raise revenue. In addition, when those countries do ‘borrow’ in the market, they effectively decide what the yield/interest will be unlike the Eurozone nations subject to the tender mercy of the speculators.

    Most states (except the ones in the monetary trap of the euro) spend their own currency into existence at will and then tax it back out of circulation in a continuous flow. It’s important to differentiate between money and real wealth/ resources. Money is how we measure wealth and also a claim on that wealth which society creates but it has no intrinsic value in itself. It primarily exists as digits on a computer screen. Our fiat currency money is created (and deleted) at will on the computer keyboards of the world’s commercial and central banks so at a macro level, there can always be as much (or as little) money circulating in the economy as there needs to be to create full employment and control inflation. Fundamentally money is just a tool to measure and allocate resources.

    The real wealth of goods and services that we all depend on is created by the labour and skill of the working class from the raw material of the planet. Money is a claim on that real wealth produced by the working class and this is where money derives it’s power. The capitalist system peddles the illusion that there is a shortage of money (balance the books, reduce the deficit, live within your means etc) in order to oppress and control the working class who are the real creators of wealth

    What the Austerity program has done is to shift a vast amount of resources away from the working class to the capital owning elite under the pretext of the global financial crisis which that capitalist elite caused in the first place. It’s the colossal confidence trick of capitalism.

    And indeed the global financial crisis was only a crisis for us because our capital serving governments made it so under austerity. Not one iota of real wealth was destroyed in the financial meltdown. Not a single grain of rice was lost. What was lost was capital’s claim on the resources of society as they saw the digits disappear in their inflated bank accounts. The 1% gambled and lost and our notional “democracy” ensured that the 99% picked up the tab.

    96
    Favourite MK76
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:59 AM

    D H, you’ve just described the ESB, which last time I checked was a semi-state. The same ESB that Brendan Ogle fought so vehemently to protect the very benefits you are now giving out about in IW.

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    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:02 AM
    78
    Favourite Mary Murphy
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:05 AM

    MK 76 it’s what we are used to. Starts off as one thing and rises to another. Most of us use our memories and common sense. Try that yourself and see how you do

    104
    Favourite For Connolly
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:06 AM

    @ Eamonn: the head of IBEC was on the radio last week repeatedly refusing to answer the following question…

    “Should water remain in public ownership?”

    Its about privatisation, nothing more, and our taxes are being used to hone Irish Water for sale.

    @thejournal: Can you PLEASE identify Aaron as a founding member of the Hibernia forum. A ‘think tank’ set up to push the big businesses and the current governments agenda of the week in the media.

    http://www.hiberniaforum.ie/about/

    164
    Favourite Kathryn Marsh
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:08 AM

    Try explaining to people in the Canary Islands that you got there on the money you saved not paying for water – they’ll look at you as if you had two heads.

    36
    Favourite Old Gabby Johnson
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:09 AM

    Wally – i mean do you even know how money is created?

    20
    Favourite For Connolly
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:09 AM

    Just to add, in the case of Irish water, it will leave citizens paying for 3/4 of the cost of water supply, 85% of which is used by businesses.

    So, of course Aaron from the Hibernia institute thinks water charges are a swell idea.

    140
    Favourite paul gurney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:09 AM

    Your crowd hardly inspired confidence Mk..

    80
    Favourite Alien8
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:11 AM

    Aaron should know full well the history of commoditising national water as a zero cost alternative funding model for investors in the IMF , and recently ECB, projects. if not then he is being naive or blinkered by an attempt to be seen as capitalist without understanding the constraints of proper capitalism. Every country that has ever received an IMF programme has almost immediately implemented a water privatisation framework, and ours is no different. the advisement put forward to politicians to sell this (conservation and quality) which worked in third world countries and Chile in the 90s were nonsensical here where we had an adequate (not ideal, but in the main 95% of water was drinkable) system that was receiving investment from both central revenue and motor tax. when this revenue was diverted away to pay the interest on the FF/FG acquired debt (again, an abhorrence to capitalism how this was done), then alternative – essentially triple taxation – measures were forced through by gleefully sadistic politicians (hogan/kelly). instead of taken the government line, you should look entirely to what is needed. one of these is to keep IW, meters and all but reconstitute it as a government agency and not a quasi state body. there is no need for corporate structure or extensive management, PR, HR or security divisions. we have sink costs into a single agency, so we should do a benefit analysis on what is there and syrup the waste before taken it back into public ownership. write an article on that, and so trying to make IW “too big to fail”, for the sake of some barren argument.

    101
    Favourite Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:16 AM

    Anyone who sincerely thinks that if IW water survives and that it will not be privatised is remarkably gullible. These are the sort of gullible people who would actually provide their PPS numbers to a utility company for commercial exploitation and to their own disadvantage.

    The real commercial play on Irish Water is a invaluable commercial database of every family and person in the country all with PPS numbers. I can see a certain Irish “entrepreneur” slobbering at the mouth in expectation of the commercial advantage.

    117
    Favourite D H
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:21 AM

    MK so you will be happy to pay up to 2000 pa for water because its like the ESB?? If irish politicians didn’t waste taxpayer money year on year irish people may have been more open to the need of paying a water charge. But in its present guise and with the people involved now and those who are hovering, IW is a disaster zone. It needs to be torn down and reformed with a provision in writing that it will never be privatised. It cannot be accepted as is. The money wasted so far plus the money earmarked to prop it up for the next few yrs should have been invested first and firmost in the infrastructure. IW at the moment is an overstaffed mess that fg and their point man tierney, has f¥¢ked up from the get go.

    83
    Favourite None
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:26 AM

    Anti water charge people are pyjama wearing, jobless (by choice) bell ends who don’t pay a cent in tax in the first place.

    51
    Favourite Chris Kirk
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:26 AM

    Everyone here talks about water charges but forgets that half of the charge goes towards treating our sewage, a greater priority in my view. People would soon complain if their toilets didn’t flush properly.

    40
    Favourite MK76
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:31 AM

    Fear mongering on the rise in water charges only serves as something to hide behind, rather admit the whole thing was blown way out of proportion for political gain, by the likes of Ogle etc.

    I’d be in favour of blocking privatisation though. Makes perfect sense and will whittle down the arguments against charging to water to the two main tenants:

    1. The rise in mé feinism and the gross sense of entitlement in Ireland
    2. The abuse of the anti water campaign by those with significant political ambition

    30
    Favourite For Connolly
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:37 AM

    If Ogle was using it for political gain, why did he not run in the election, as some of the trolls were claiming was going to happen?

    86
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:40 AM

    Mr. None,

    I doubt Fianna Fail would appreciate being called “jobless bell ends” (Their un-elected candidates maybe?) as they are now taking an anti water stance having been forced into an embarrassing U-turn under massive political pressure from the magnificent boycott of the hated water charges. This is a movement of mass working class solidarity which now looks likely to decisively defeat the state in its attempts to impose another hated banker tax on the people.

    Hopefully the water charges campaign has set a precedent for the many battles to come which will be necessary to build a country which protects the welfare of its people and not just those of a privileged elite. Nothing will be given to us willingly by capital or the governments which serve capital. The working class must fight for every scrap but if we stand together in solidarity, we are a mighty force.

    99
    Favourite Diarmuid Lenihan
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:47 AM

    €5.5 billion to be invested in our water infrastructure over the next 6 years. Who do you think will get most of this through his various companies ? That’s the real issue, I don’t think the unmentionable has any intention of owning IW but just getting the majority of these contracts.

    58
    Favourite ciaran
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:49 AM

    MK just remember to speak for yourself and your narrow misguided views
    the scare mongering was carried out by Hogan and Kelly as if you forgot.!

    74
    Favourite Dan Lawlor
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:53 AM

    And isn’t that the hidden message behind the water protest. That it’s not about water charges per se but our debt and relationship with Europe. I wonder how popular the movement would be if the slogan was “no to water charges,no to the euro”

    48
    Favourite Mary Murphy
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    Mar 5th 2016, 10:54 AM

    Are you trying to be funny? If so well your failing

    5
    Favourite Chris Mcdonnell
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:00 AM

    Wally you do more harm to AAA with your constant tripe on here. Someone in the party should take out an injunction on you using their logo

    12
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:11 AM

    Chris,

    Your concern for the AAA-PBP is truly touching. If you can point to anything incorrect in what I’ve written, please do so.

    65
    Favourite Robert Cousins
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:21 AM

    There is no right wing party in Ireland Wally. Never has been. Any government who runs budget deficits to fund huge public spending on public services, which gives benefits like we do, who tows the line of the public sector is not right wing. We have left of centre and left wing parties in Ireland.

    21
    Favourite Get Lost Eircodes
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:39 AM

    Ogle was using it for union gain, his Unite union were pissed off SIPTU got the Irish Water staff. Ask Ogle are the pay & perks for Irish Water better or worse than ESB. He should know he helped ESB unions hold the country to ransom a few years ago.

    18
    Favourite Strong silent type
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:42 AM

    It was never broke so no need to fix it, a quango is a quango is a quango, they’ll never get their greedy hands on my hard earned money.

    48
    Favourite Strong silent type
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:43 AM

    Prove it.

    19
    Favourite For Connolly
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:47 AM

    That’s ridiculous Robert. I’ve heard you make that claim before. Fine Gael are the Irish equivalent of the tory party. They are center right. We then have a party which swings between left and right of center depending on whether or not its their turn to fool the voter. Their name is Fianna Fail. We had a labour party which lost its political compass when it amalgamated with Democratic Left in 1999. There are then the various elements of the left wing, ranging from the centrist-left of center Social democrats, the center left Sinn Fein, and then further to the left People before profit-AAA.

    54
    Favourite Ian Walsh
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:48 AM

    P.Ennis if €260 is what would prevent you from going to the Canaries in June then you couldn’t really afford to go in the first place.

    15
    Favourite gregory
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:08 PM

    This is a class divide. All those proferring the virtue of water charges have good incomes. Those on lower incomes cannot afford it. The figures cited above are misleading. Legislation was passed to enact 3.70/m3 per end dec2018, so higher rate applies per 01jan2019. Each person uses avg 45m3/yr. The Irish 3.70 rate is well over double the Dutch rate 1.59/m3. Holland has 4 provincial water companies to service the whole country. State owned/operates efficiently. The most IW operating costs are off the scale compared to other water companies.

    49
    Favourite Darbey
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:12 PM

    But who will end up paying in the long run regardless?

    Would you rather it was USC that sticks around forever to pay for it? Thus keeping the cost amongst those in society who work.

    It’s a utility like any other a pay for what you use model makes the most sense.

    23
    Favourite Kevin Smyth
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:15 PM

    “I’d pay my water charges if I didn’t think FG planned to flog it to DOB for a song so he could charge people €1000 a year for water.”

    Denis has a moral code and would never think of such a thing. What’s wrong with one man owning all of our water and selling it back to us? Free markets baby. Trickle down economics.

    35
    Favourite John Mallon
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:21 PM

    The capitalist mantra of “maximizing profit,” that’s what

    26
    Favourite Darbey
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:27 PM

    Your understanding of economics is questionable at best….

    The bottom line. Our costs exceeded income. Irish Water is a good idea, horrifically executed and a PR nightmare.

    USC went down by more than water is set to cost

    14
    Favourite Killian O'Hara
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:41 PM

    anyone leaving red thumbs on these comments clearly paid their water tax.

    25
    Favourite Strong silent type
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    Mar 5th 2016, 12:56 PM

    Chris, you’re a triple A a$shole. You need help.

    16
    Favourite Caitriona Conlan
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    Mar 5th 2016, 1:22 PM

    @None – are you a 50 something man typing that sitting in your y-front pants in your Mother’s box room? See….. it’s easy to write a pseudo-profile on anyone….. Facts though, they’re different. I’m a professional person, tax-payer, and generally law abiding citizen (not paying water charges being the exception). I do however have a sense of social justice and an abhorrence for the corporatisation and commodification of natural resources. I would rather go to jail for actions in defence of the Irish people’s right to retain such a valuable resource in public ownership, than buy your or anyone else neo-liberal waffling.

    45
    Favourite watersedge
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    Mar 5th 2016, 1:23 PM

    For Connolly
    Thank you for that info on Aaron. This site is another mouthpiece for the government. More comments I posted yesterday have been taken down yet again. Without the likes of F.C. Wally and many more in the comment section and all of those that kept organising the water protests and mobilizing people, keeping us all informed and up to date on I.W. we would all be frightened out of our skins. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay a penny to fund the greed of D.O.B. that snake Alan Kelly and Phil Hogan. Immoral gangsters preying on ordinary people just trying to get by.

    46
    Favourite Wally Mooney
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    Mar 5th 2016, 1:30 PM

    No Darbey. Costs exceeding income is a micro economic principle which does not apply to sovereign floating currency issuing nations such as Sweden, New Zealand, U.K etc etc. When you create your own money at will, the budget deficit is irrelevant. The deficit or surplus should be allowed to float to whatever level is required to maximise the use of society’s resources. That is to create full employment while maintaining price stability.

    29
    Favourite Bobby Phelan
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    Mar 5th 2016, 2:11 PM

    Its quite obvious the banksters are after our water now it must be enshrined in our constitution with out delay

    33
    Favourite Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 5th 2016, 2:43 PM

    Only to the extreme right, can FG and FF be perceived as on the left.

    25
    Favourite J.Hanley
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    Mar 5th 2016, 3:00 PM

    @ For Connolly. Thanks for that info about the Hibernia Thinktank. All becomes clear when you see that thinktank’s aims. As you say all for pushing the burden of taxation on to those who can least afford it and away from those who could afford to take a bit more of the load. And of course nothing at all to say about the elephant in the room of the private bank debt unjustly foisted on our backs which is the real reason why these new charges for public services are being introduced with no regard taken of ability to pay while our taxes are diverted to pay odious bank debt.

    23
    Favourite Peter Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2016, 3:25 PM

    Would I be right in thinking that the majority of Irish people are against Irish Water now ?

    And If so, how can it possibly continue in it’s current form ? It’s dead…

    23
    Favourite Peter Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2016, 3:42 PM

    This Hibernian Forum is the equivalent of the British Tory 22 Club. A natural home for PDs and Fine Gaelers. A group of nostalgic Tories hankering for the good old Dickensian days when they ruled the roost and it was OK to send ten year olds down coalmines until those damn trade unions stuck their noses in…

    23
    Favourite Timmay Timeo
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    Mar 5th 2016, 4:54 PM

    I own a cloud computing consultancy that works main in Europe but also in California, I don’t have any pyjamas. I am vehemently opposed to Irish Water, for the way it was created and the way it is being operated.

    26
    Favourite joe doyle
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    Mar 5th 2016, 5:21 PM

    When they go on holiday they use the money they get from their natural resource sun but we want to sell ours rain to dob

    18
    Favourite Crom Cruach
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    Mar 5th 2016, 6:04 PM

    And yet you, MK, have offered nothing of substance yourself, just citing the usual blueshirt bullsh!t. Move along now, your right-wing sycophancy helps no one, yourself included.

    16
    Favourite Daffy the Bear
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    Mar 5th 2016, 8:21 PM

    @MK76…

    “Mé féinism” has nothing to do with reluctance to pay Irish Water, no more than water charges themselves have anything to do with “the future of our water infrastructure”. If water infrastructure was really the concern here, wouldn’t it have made way more sense for the government to impose a water conservation tax, collected at source from wages or welfare benefits by Revenue? No billion euros wasted in the setup of Irish Water, no (significant) protests; just like the property tax, people would have had no choice and would have reluctantly paid.

    Irish Water is a utility set up for privatisation, at massive expense to the taxpayer, and run with almost unbelievable inefficiency; even if every household in the country subscribed to this utility, the monies collected would barely cover the running costs. More than a billion quid of taxpayer’s money has been pissed away in this fiasco already. So far, no repairs, upgrades or improvements whatsoever have been made to our water infrastructure.

    Once the company is sold, as it inevitably will be if pursuit of the privatisation agenda is allowed to persist, what will be the cost of water provision for the consumer? Even in state hands, do you really see the charges being “reasonable” 5 years, 10 years from now? Anecdotal evidence from other countries that have taken this route suggests we can expect a sharp increase in charges accompanied by a steep decline in the standard of the service provided.
    Aside from the cost implications, there’s a principle at stake: is it right that a precious natural resource, a basic human need, become a commodity to generate profits for corporate interests?

    This is certainly not the first time you have ridiculed and berated those who have the cop on to recognise the underlying issues with Irish Water and are “making a positive contribution to Irish society” through boycott payment; these are the people you’ll have to thank when Irish Water is scrapped and water as a natural resource is constitutionally consigned to public ownership.

    Your willful refusal to acknowledge these very valid concerns, your blind, mindless toeing of the party line and, most of all, your persistent ridicule and berating of those who have the cop on to recognise the underlying issues with Irish Water expose you as a prostrate, servile vassal.

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    Favourite Una Fairley Hanlon
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    Mar 5th 2016, 9:59 PM

    Idiot

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    Favourite Pol O Misteal
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    Mar 5th 2016, 11:51 PM

    Getting rid of water tax is idiotic. Getting rid of USC is sensible. Seems to matter who is taxed rather than the income from tax.

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    Favourite Buster VL
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    Mar 6th 2016, 12:33 AM

    Wally, do you make your posts to the journal on an iPhone? Without multinationals (yes, companies that make PROFITS) you would not have your Smartphone Your laptop. Your eco-car Cheap food in your belly. Medicine to ensure your health. Your pension.

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    Favourite ciaran
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    Mar 6th 2016, 9:54 AM

    @FC thank you for pointing out that our “friend” arron the businessman and contributor is in fact a vested interest
    hugh caught again!!!

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