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Comment #4917551 by Dublin Living

Dublin Living Mar 26th 2016, 9:11 AM #

This is very misleading. You’re ignoring the 5 years of training so junior doctors start out at zero salary and continue on zero for 5 years. Then they reach internship. Luas drivers are earning a salary from week 8.

What’s worse is that many doctors now enter as graduates which means they PAY 16,000 euro in fees per year just to STUDY to get a degree. They graduate 60,000 EUR in debt which takes 10 years to pay off. And it means they were studying and not earning for 8 years before they became a doctor!

Now, you have made a mistake on the SHO salaries so you’re greatly overstating their pay. SHO’s earn 38K not 44K.

Finally, you can’t believe the HSE’s stats about the hours doctors work. Doctors work more hours than the HSE will officially acknowledge or pay for. Junior doctors have to pay high fees every year for further training and exams. And since doctors work much longer hours than drivers, you should really compare the HOURLY pay of each.

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FactCheck: Are Luas drivers really paid more than junior doctors?

FactCheck: Are Luas drivers really paid more than junior doctors?

TheJournal.ie’s FactCheck is back. And we’re stepping into the country’s biggest argument at the moment.

REPLIES

    Favourite Jack Falltrades
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    Mar 26th 2016, 9:30 AM

    Excellent point. People who criticise people in public sector jobs which require 3rd level education conveniently forget the debt levels that these workers have at the start of their career. How are they meant to pay rent never mind save for a house?
    This country will soon regret the day they underpaid the newly qualified public sector so much.

    1045
    Favourite gregory
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:05 AM

    Thats it im giving up engineering

    273
    Favourite Stephen Duffy
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:06 AM

    Regardless of how much junior Doctors or new starts in the Gardai get there should be little sympathy for the Luas Drivers. They are well paid and their wage demands are outrageous. Let them stay out on strike. Give in to them and there will be a queue of other workers lining up for big pay increases. We all point the finger for the crash at bankers, estate agents, etc etc but as far as I am concerned the Unions are right up there with them..

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    Favourite gregory
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:16 AM

    Giving up eng to be a tram driver. Tram drivers get paid more than engineers. And no benefits for engineers. List of secondary demands is beyond belief. So much a job that requires 8 weeks training and has job security. What do tram drivers earn in brussels/ amsterdam?

    478
    Favourite Jack Falltrades
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:43 AM

    We should flood the transdev head office with CV’s from the public as a protest against the ridiculous situation we have found ourselves in.

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    Favourite Joe Harbison
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:45 AM

    It also forgets the fact that a lot of junior docs go into GP training this don’t enter SpR and the Senior Registrar Grade has more or less been abolished.

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    Favourite Deborah Behan
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:59 AM

    Greg we would prefer if you were our Luas driver rather than this greedy swines.

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:14 AM

    I have a four year honours degree, I did a masters and I’ve now gone and done a two year h dip post grad to train as a teacher, I will take a huge pay cut and start out on less than 25,000, but that’s not the reason I’m doing it, it’s to do a challenging and worthwhile job intellectually and socially, there is no way in hell I could just sit in a tram seat and drive a tram all day every day, I would go off my head and prob slit my wrists. If people think it’s so great to drive a tram off ye go. It sounds mind numbing and you can’t just switch off either as you have hundreds of people in your care every day. Also the most you’re ever going to get paid is around 44000, doesn’t sound like an awful lot to bring up a family in one of the most expensive cities in Europe.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:16 AM

    If ever there was a moment this country needed a union breaker in control, this is it. Any chance of Michael O’Leary throwing his hat in the ring for the likely upcoming election?

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:43 AM

    For the guy above who says he might quit engineering, well do it then, I mean it’s commonly known that train drivers earn way more money than these guys, why don’t you become a train driver if your starting salary is all that motivates you?

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    Favourite cholly appleseed
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:44 AM

    An beal… and as a teacher you won’t earn more than 44.000 either so you are kind of contradicting yourself because how will you survive. Also I really hope you aren’t a teacher if u trivialise mental health and suicide with such ease in your comment. Personally I suspect you are a tram driver

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    Favourite Paul Dunne
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:50 AM

    so are you going to be a team driver in Dublin Brussels or Amsterdam?

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    Favourite Oh Sheeple Stand Up
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:03 PM

    @Liam And you will probably be a stereotypical Irish hypocrite this weekend and go celebrate a left wing rebellion, the anniversary of which is not for another month, without getting the hypocrisy of your comments or attitude. You should look up men called Jim Larkin and James Connolly and what this country was like before they brought unions to this country

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    Favourite John Moylan
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:06 PM

    Reread it: it’s the non-salary demands that are eye catching, eye watering even. Free GP care ? Really ? What fupping planet are these guys on ? …I had two GP visits lately at €50 a go. Why on earth should they not pay for them ??

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    Favourite Michael J
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:09 PM

    The idiots on this site still can’t get over the fact doctors earn more. They haven’t got the guts to apologise for all the shite they have been giving out. They also ignore the fact that most people don’t have the financial capabilities to train as doctors. Their mammy and daddy haven’t got the cash to bankroll them. Banks won’t lend them the money because they haven’t got a millionaire guarantor behind them. Just read the facts snobs and shut up. You’ve been found out.

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:10 PM

    Cholly, I can assure you I am not a tram driver, I don’t even live next nor near rip-off Dublin. Why would I denigrate my job if I was a tram driver. Is it that hard to believe that a person might be motivated by more than just their starting salary, is that the kind of country we live in now. I love teaching, it is so unbelievably challenging and fulfilling, you are actually making a real difference to regular childrens lives. People are constantly making spurious and specious arguments here. For instance the caretaker of a school makes a lot more than a graduate teacher but am I going to throw a tantrum and deny that person a fair wage and an ability to support his family?? Nonsense

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    Favourite Gary
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:12 PM

    Cholly, my brother’s a teacher and he’s on 65k pa. He’s 42 years old.
    If you’re talking about newly qualified teachers and all their cuts then holy fu€k.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:14 PM

    Yeah, I couldn’t afford to study medicine, and probably wouldn’t have had the intellectual capacity to do so even if I had the cash. But why should the fact I’m not a doctor mean I shouldn’t earn as much, if not more than, a doctor, right? The stupidity of lefties would be hilarious if they weren’t inexplicably taken seriously on occasion.

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:17 PM

    By the way principals of large urban schools make a lot more than 44,000, but I’d only do it if I wanted to do it. You could also do specialist roles that pay more such as a community liaison officer or you could do a PhD and do lecturing hours in a teacher training college as indeed many do to supplement their income or go on sabbatical.

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    Favourite J
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:19 PM

    It’s surprising to read some of the comments here regarding the Luas dispute, these workers have a right to withdraw their labour in protest to try to improve their conditions of employment, their wages aren’t exorbitant by any means in this day and age (cost of living isn’t dropping). It’s an insult to compare the earnings of Luas drivers with Medical Doctors, the earning potential of a Doctor over their lifetime vastly outstrips that of the driver, and are two completely disciplines. It has been shown that anyone with a 3rd level professional qualification has a greater earning potential over their lifetime when compared with those without a Primary Degree (Debt or no debt).
    We still have Jobsbridge and Internship ‘employment’ schemes, zero hour contracts, relatively few full time job opportunities anymore…what type of society do we want in this Country?…remember, what these drivers are doing now may just help improve the employment landscape for everyone…fairness and equality of Opportunity should be a cornerstone of our Economy and Society in general.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:26 PM

    J, I want to live in a society where the highly qualified earn more than unskilled workers. This model encourages people to upskill and benefits society as a whole. My girlfriend has a PhD and will not earn what Luas drivers are demanding till she’s in her 40s if she’s lucky, yet it will be via her increased fares that these Luas drivers will extract their inexplicably high wage rates. Why? What do they contribute to Ireland that’s so much more valuable than a PhD researcher, that the PhD should be penalised to fund the opulence of those who simply ferry her to work?
    Why would any young person today pursue higher qualifications when they see from nonsense like this how little education is valued in this country? This will not benefit workers as a whole as you say, this will lead to the gradual erosion of the knowledge economy we have spent decades trying to establish.

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:29 PM

    Apologies if the slit my wrists comment offended you but it was a throw away comment and I do genuinely think my mental health would suffer long term if my career was going to be driving trams every day for a living. No disrespect to tram drivers but I do strive for a personally more fulfilling living and we only get one life, there’s no replay. Some people might love engines and machines and might actually enjoy driving a train, I wouldn’t.

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    Favourite Oh Sheeple Stand Up
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:29 PM

    @JohnMoylan How about instead of bemoaning people looking for basic demands the whole country should be behind them as free healthcare should be universal but will never be because then doctors cannot amass their tax free fortunes in private practice after their taxable wages and expenses are paid by the state

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:32 PM

    Liam, that doesn’t mean the “unskilled” aren’t entitled to a fair wage or that they’re not entitled to collective bargaining or to withdraw their labour. My wife is a post-doctoral researcher and she loves it, she’s highly motivated and has her own freedom and I can assure you an extra 10 grand wouldn’t have her driving trams.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:38 PM

    Dear lord sheeple, you’re gone too far left to ever make a sensible statement again! So we should all get behind a cosseted few for the right to subsidise their health care through either increased taxes or increased medical bills, because that might lead to free medical care for all (you skipped a few steps on how one would lead to the other, but that’s fine, I’m sure you’ve thought this through.) You then, in your little workers rights rant, proceed to absolutely hammer another group of workers working conditions because, I don’t know, you perceive them to be rich is it?
    Doctors train for around 10-12 years, with 5 of those years entirely unpaid. Yet you will simultaneously demand the decimation of their working conditions while blindly supporting the demands of Luas drivers. You’re not a socialist, you’re a reverse snob with a massive chip on your shoulder about those whom you perceive to be better than you.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:40 PM

    Beal, so the entire economy should be based on people’s underlying desires to perform essential, highly skilled duties rather than incentivising people to perform these duties? We tried that, it was called communism, it failed spectacularly anywhere it was attempted.

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    Favourite Shane Manton
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:48 PM

    Seriously,let them strike! The city won’t come to a screeching halt. Luas trams have only been around for a few years. Few extra buses for a week or two and refuse to negotiate. The drivers have to eat so will be back at work soon enough.

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    Favourite Archangel72
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:50 PM

    I can tell you that because there are some great Dutch sights who calculate the average without benefits and overtime though.

    The average salary of a tram/bus driver in Amsterdam, with a much higher penetration of trams, lines and customers, same working hours a week/schedule and with 5 years of previous work experience starts at around 25k gross.

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    Favourite Archangel72
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:52 PM

    *sites*

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    Favourite An_Beal_Bocht
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    Mar 26th 2016, 12:58 PM

    Communism is a theory that tries to right the inherent injustices of capitalism but it is not remotely practical to implement as you have pointed out. Please don’t use a non-practical theory as a fear mongering tool when people are trying to create a socially just society.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 1:00 PM

    The socially just society you’re trying to create is communism. Changing the name doesn’t change the underlying ideology. Please don’t try and use semantics to distract from the true horrors of what you are tacitly supporting.

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    Favourite J
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    Mar 26th 2016, 1:11 PM

    Liam, I don’t disagree with your comments and they’re well made. However, I’m not sure you can say with certainty that your Girlfriend with a PhD qualification won’t be earning as much as the Luas drivers in 10yrs time? Isn’t it sad that this potentially could be the case? – what has gone wrong in this Country when Education and Knowledge aren’t currently valued as once was the case?
    I value education highly, I’m an Engineer by profession…but I know that an Academic path doesn’t suit everyone. We all chose what to do in life, but it’s important to be given an opportunity – I see so many bright young people who are struggling to find their feet and don’t have much opportunity to get ahead in life at the moment.

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    Favourite Catherine Buckley
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    Mar 26th 2016, 1:27 PM

    Unbelievable!!!!! Doctors constantly study, constantly work and save lives everyday!!!! You cannot even compare their jobs to a luas driver. No sympathy here from a nurse dual qualified after 5 years study and 10years and is earning less than a luas driver who did little or no training! And I spend 12 hrs on my feet they sit for 9hr!! How quickly we forget the recession when there were very few jobs around. Makes my blood boil

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    Favourite bingo
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    Mar 26th 2016, 1:51 PM

    J, “remember, what these drivers are doing now may just help improve the employment landscape for everyone…fairness and equality” – how? Who’s going to pay for it? How is the price of a ticket going up (more than probably) going to help all of the workers who have to use the luas to travel to work?

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    Favourite Maria Egan
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    Mar 26th 2016, 1:53 PM

    And don’t forget the nearly €2500 annual performance and attendance bonus…€2500 bonus for turning up on time to do the job you’re paid to do!!!!

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    Favourite Andrew English
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    Mar 26th 2016, 2:12 PM

    Liam the idea that just because you are educated means you should earn more than those who are less educated is a flawed oversimplification and does not represent how the working world conducts itself. It’s almost a romantic vision of how the world should be. For example, there are politicians within Dáil Éireann that are creaming close to 100k a year without a third level education. Some of the most wealthy people on this planet dropped out of third level education and others didn’t even finish school. A quick google check will show these particular individuals.

    I think you need to reassess the entitlement mentality that you currently possess in relation to eduction = more dollar bills. Although admirable that your partner has a PhD, she is one of many who also possess that accolade.

    On principle, I agree with the Luas workers. Before the election we were told how great the country was and how much money we have etc. Why shouldn’t workers look for increased benefits in this stage of ‘recovery?’ I also believe that those within the civil service should strike on mass. Comparing Luas drivers to junior doctors is also f*cking ridiculous and plays right into the divide and conquer tactic. Why don’t junior docs compare their salary to elected officials?

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    Favourite Oliver P. Dunne
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    Mar 26th 2016, 2:13 PM

    What about bringing your cv to news talk, just look at pat kenny’s pay.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 2:38 PM

    Andrew, I’m not saying the educated should earn more than the unskilled as an absolute, but the trend should at least be evident. For example, you mention that the earning potential of my girlfriend’s PhD is diminished by the volume of PhDs in the labour market in general, and this should be accepted as a reality of the labour market. I don’t disagree. However, how many people in the labour market could drive a tram after 7 weeks training? I contend that there is not an able bodied adult in this country who couldn’t do so. Therefore, why should Luas drivers earn anything above minimum wage by the standards you are setting for myself and my girlfriend? Why do you presume that we should suffer all the indignities of the realities of labour market dynamics, but that unskilled people should be protected from such dynamics? You’re setting contradictory terms and not explaining why.
    And that you would support a civil service strike indicates just how wide of public opinion you really are. We have the most grossly overpaid and underperforming civil service on the continent, and you want to pay them more? Let me guess, like the vast majority of socialists, you are not a net contributed to the exchequer, and in reality you just want more of my money.

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    Favourite Chris Kirk
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    Mar 26th 2016, 3:14 PM

    Or Larry Goodman, would soon show the trade unions where to get off….having a secure job would satisfy most people, but greed satisfies nobody……

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    Favourite Dermot
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    Mar 26th 2016, 3:57 PM

    Stephen, can we just get a grip of ourselves here please? Fact: Nurses, Guards, Paramedics and vasts amount of workers across Society are poorly paid. Blaming other workers, regardless of the merits or otherwise of a particular dispute does not address this fundamental issue, we as a society have become quite expert at knocking those who stand up for themselves. Perhaps if all workers were represented with the same zealous that some are in various sectors, public transport being a case in point, then we might fare a whole lot better. I will of course accept that the Luas dispute is not exactly the best role model, but heh, workers are entitled to agitate and protest for improved terms and conditions. Putting unions in the same category as those who pillaged this country is manifestly wrong and does a dis-service to genuine trade unionists. Such aquisance to those bankers, developers etc is exactly the reason why none of them are banged up..!

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    Favourite Robert Behan
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    Mar 26th 2016, 4:19 PM

    @Laim, I’ll quote an American friend of mine who once posted on FB some thing along the lines of: ” After 9 years of education, including a PhD in Genetics and a 3 year post doc I’m on 44k dollars a year….. no wonder there is no cure for cancer!!… ” Unfortunately despite Ireland often badging itself as a knowledge economy this ertainly isn’t reflected in what our most educated and skilled workers earn….. Having pursued a scientiific career myself can attest that science doesn’t pay and this is most definitely true in Ireland!

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 4:23 PM

    Dermot, most of the bailout money was used to fund the public service wage bill. Find it as uncomfortable as you like, but the trade union movement in Ireland was largely responsible for the collapse of the economy. Seanie Fitz probably should be in prison, but he should be sharing a cell with Jack O’Connor. Trade unionists, just like communists of any hue, are inherently traitorous.

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    Favourite Dermot
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    Mar 26th 2016, 4:35 PM

    Liam, so all of a sudden trade unionists are communists? My God, have we come this far as a country that we have actually forgotten the rights of people to be represented by whom they choose, I would not be a fan of trade unions being involved in Government policy (social partnership ), but just remember this, we live in a democracy, whether we like it or not, the vast majority of workers vote for FF or FG. Incidentally, I hold no truck with the Trots, who I’m assuming you are comparing genuine, socially drive trade unionists with.

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    Favourite liam
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    Mar 26th 2016, 4:40 PM

    The rights of people to be represented by whom they choose? Nonsense! Certain cosseted sectors, primarily in the public service, are allowed to unionise. The rest of us, the ones who actually have to fund the demands of these commie traitors, are not permitted to unionise, are not permitted to be represented by whomever we choose.
    So tell me, why should my earnings be garnished to fund the lifestyles of those who enjoy more benefits than I do to begin with? Why should these cosseted sectors be permitted to hold me to ransom? Trade unionists are traitors to their country, they value only what they can extract from the people of their country.

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    Favourite Malachi
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    Mar 26th 2016, 4:50 PM

    Andrew, you’re right that more educated should not mean higher pay. Special skills that take years to hone (almost a decade for GPs and the like) are FAR more valuable to society than a Luas worker, and that is what you’re missing.

    If we didn’t pay doctors (or people in other specialised high-skill professions) well enough, no one would become a doctor because it wouldn’t be worth the outrageous amount of work, not to mention student debt that builds up.

    Contrast this with Luas workers. If we don’t pay them what they’re demanding, there are PLENTY of people ready and waiting to take their job and do it for much less than they’re willing to. Since it only takes 7 weeks to qualify, there’ll be people lining up to replace those who refuse to work for fair wages.

    That’s the difference between the professions, not simply the gulf in education between them.

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    Favourite Bicho Malo
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    Mar 26th 2016, 5:22 PM

    That’s why you can afford living with a 25k salary…

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    Favourite Martin Gallagher
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    Mar 26th 2016, 6:41 PM

    Fair comment @Dublin Living but the question in my mind is which Government allowed for 60,000 euros. plus to study for a medicine degree which then takes 10 years to pay off, while having to work illegal hours under current EU labour regulations? It certainly wasn’t an Irish Trade Union initiative, I’d say?
    Comparing Luas tram drivers and Junior Doctors pay scales is a divisive argument typical of today’s Neoliberalism economic thinking. Think back to the time when Ahern (the so called socialist!) and IBEC once supported the 1 euro an hour work contracts ‘race to the bottom’ in favour of Irish Ferries!

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    Favourite Niamh Ní Dhonnchú
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    Mar 26th 2016, 7:27 PM

    New teachers after 2012 start on 31k a year. That’s basic pay. There are allowances on top of that for Hdip and Masters. I’m not sure where that person is getting those figures. And yes I am a teacher. http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scales/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-february-1-2012/

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    Favourite Joan walsh
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:00 PM

    What the hell are you saying? I have no idea what you are trying to say!

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    Favourite Joan walsh
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:01 PM

    ???

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    Favourite Joan walsh
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:09 PM

    Such absolute actual bull. Doctors are the brightest most highly trained professionals in this country and no I am not a doctor I am a teacher . They deserve every penny they get .. They take the responsibility when the chips are down! I want my doctors well paid because I want the best and the brightest treating me and mine ! I don’t believe all should get the same as we are not all the same and excellence should be rewarded !

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    Favourite Joan walsh
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    Mar 26th 2016, 10:09 PM

    Well said

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    Favourite Molly Walsh
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    Mar 26th 2016, 11:47 PM
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    Favourite Fjordie
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    Apr 7th 2016, 12:49 AM

    Having a hdip is a basic requirement of the job. You should include that in your post.

    Actually before the crash new teachers started on just shy of 40k ( I’ve included both the hdip and honours degree allowance as I’d like to think those without these would never be allowed teach my children)

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    Favourite Michael Kerlin
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    May 22nd 2016, 3:42 PM

    What are you talking about? Please give me some facts to back up this, (to me), bizarre opinion. I am obviously in the minority in picking you up on this. You seem to be supported by 90% of the, possibly ill-informed, readership of this article. I’m not sure if that represents the Irish public, the readership of ‘Journal.ie’, or just those who ‘clicked’ on an article about Luas drivers. Anyways, how do you reckon, “It was the Unions wot did it!”?.

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