Why not? They only recently got the county’s first set of traffic lights ever. Think of the tourism €€€. Throw in a Casino or 5. Carrick could be the new Vegas

They know there’s a conservative government in power and will try their upmost to enact new oppressive laws that ban everything.

Ruhama stems from those of religious backgrounds.

Aiden, it bans soliciting, not sex work…it is just that, at the time, almost all sex work in Ireland was street work so that the act had the effect of forcing formerly independent sex workers into the hands of organised crime just to retain their livelihood, for several years before more independent options became available without the risk of constant prosecutions:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

We already have laws that outlaw sex with minors *and* trafficking with a broad remit and draconian penalties.

But the biggest weapon we have against trafficking and the abuse of minors is our tiny size…and the resulting absence of anonymity. As a result nobody, including an Garda Siochana and *me*, can actually find any trafficking or abused minors.

Would your one need to show you her papers beforehand? It’d kind of spoil the experience.. and being handed a receipt wouldn’t be great either.

Exactly – the voices of the actual women who this is about and who it affects surprisingly get little say it seems…

Do we listen to the opinions of drug dealers?

Excuse me I love lamp? Are you equating sex workers with drug dealers? Selling sex is legal and it harms no one (except perhaps the woman selling it if she’s being exploited or feels she has no other option to make money). You have no right to make such a horrible judgement on somebody’s life choices.

What – did you think they were doing their trade illegally here? Read up on the law.

Filthy trade, filthy people. I can easily pass judgement on them because I don’t sell my body for a few euro. Get a job in a chippy or something. Filthy people!

You also say it does no harm? Tell that to the clients partners (when the have them) but I suspect you think that’s fine as long as they don’t find out.

judgmental much?

How? Because I actually care more about the people that are financially and emotionally effected by it than if a protitute is out a few euro. That aparent fact that you dont and actually side with them says a lot about you. Would you like to see your hometown turn into pataya? Hypothetical question I know but would you honestly?

I love lamp – extreme trolling you’re doing right now. And a lack of any understanding :P

Yea I’m trolling, that’s why my comment was removed? I been all over the world and seen all sorts of things so I think I have plenty of understanding but that and acceptance of things I don’t think are right are two different things, something you probably have no understanding of.

If your partner is screwing around with a hooker then your relationship has serious problems already. No use blaming the hooker.

You can see as many things as you want in this life and travel all over the world a million times over but that and still have no understanding whatsoever, or compassion.

picking pataya shows your views are nothing but extreme ranting though, I wouldn’t mind living in Sydney, or Auckland or Sri racha (about 30 mins from Pataya) or Munich, Berlin, prauge, need I go on? the extremist Swedish social model creates more problems than it solves, imho.

I really feel worried for the future of this country with the mentality of people nowadays. None of you would want anyone in your family to work in the sex industry but it’s completely fine when it someone else so I find your hypocrisy pretty sad on your part.

i wouldn’t want my child in the sex industry, be it prostitution or porn. But at the end of the day it’s their choice.

Yea right

ah come off it will ya and take those blinkers off, first of all you tell people what they wouldn’t want, (having no evidence) , then when someone gives you their honest opinion, you reply with “yeh right”. there’s only one hypocrite here…. its you by the way…

I love lamp…I do not think there is any significant risk or anyone offering you “a few euro” for your body any time soon…honestly I don’t…

I thought I’m a very proportional little egg.

I agree. Prostitutes are always going to be there. Some are exploited but a lot do it of their own free will. Legalisation would make them much safer. I personally don’t see any problem with it so long as its consensual.

That might be a more desirable option, but it is not going to happen any time soon. It would be too politically sensitive and would probably be put to a referendum.
In the meantime, it’s much better to criminalise the kerb crawlers who fund the trade than the exploited women who are readily replaced anyway.

Hang on – prostitution is already legal in Ireland. Check the facts. What isn’t legal is pimping and running a brothel, soliciting in public places and stuff like that. The actual selling and buying of sex is legal.

Criminalising the “kerb crawlers” would do no good. Trafficking and exploitation of people in the sex industry is already illegal – what they should do is pour more resources into that. There would not have to be any referendum at all.

Eleen – is it? Must be one of the VERY few countries in the world?! would you have anything to support this?

Here you go Daniel:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

But it desperately needs revision in terms of exemption zones for streetworkers and provison for indoor sex workers to share premises without penalty for safety and companionship.

“A person who knowingly lives in whole or in part on the earnings of the prostitution of another person and aids and abets that prostitution shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.”

What I meant by “legalised” is to legally allow for prostitution to be just like any other job (with its own medical checks etc of course). Not everyone is forced to do this, there are people who do want to provide service, and there is more than enough of demand for it. So why not?! why pretend it doesn’t exist or goes away?

Technically it is still in a very grey area Daniel…there is no clear regulation on taxation or social welfare – for instance, I was told by a social welfare officer, after the ’93 act, that earnings from sex work do not count as means and I should never have signed off (as I had, automatically because I was making a good living).

I have always struggled with the idea of taxing sex work. Because, if it is a crime for an individual or company to live off sex work then it cannot be legal for the state to do so through taxation. (Also if sex work were fully legalised without taxation I can forsee legions of men with white van and tractors queuing patiently too fill out an “Provider of Sexual Services” tax exemption form! )

Couldn’t agree more

Ireland seems to think that making everything illegal is a good idea and a deterrent. In actual fact,making this illegal is making it more dangerous for people involved and filling our jails up with more petty crime than we have room for. This should be regulated so the workers can be protected properly. Same goes for weed,tax and regulate that,free up jail space and pump money into the system. Our government has a scary lack of common sense.

I think it is time Ruhama and Turn Off the Red Light were subject to a full value for money audit to make sure that they are not using hundreds of thousands in state funding just to lobby against the wishes and and best interests of what they claim is their user group.

I cannot see why they receive any state funding at all considering most of their user group want nothing to do with them and essential services to sick and disabled children are being pared back to fund them.

@ Eileen. Your instincts are correct. Dig a little deeper and you will find that the people that you suspect of having their own interests at heart, instead of the people that they proclaim to care for, is correct. It’s almost unbelievable, but wherever there are vulnerable people, not far behind them will you find parasites willing to predate upon their situation. This is sad but all too true. Their are many within our societies and other societies, that think nothing of using the vulnerability of victims, combined with the sympathy of people willing to help those victims, as nothing more than an opportunity to exploit both. Almost unbelievably, some of the Government organisations set up to help these people in distress, are currently playing with the emotional consciousness of everybody involved, to achieve nothing other than feather their own nests. The only shortcut to understand this behaviour is to look up psychopathology. It’s easier than you might think. Good luck.

We should provide space in our jails for the likes of Mick Wallace who defrauded revenue of 1.4 million euro in VAT rather than some smuck who purchases sex on the side of the street.

“they are targeting the buyers who happen to be mostly men – and why is that, do you think? ”

You’d think this would be a period of reflection and introspection for you and your philosophically bitter and resentfully envious sistren. But conservative female sensibilities would preclude such rational thinking.

Here is an example of the level of deceit they use in their campaign:

http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/learn-more/faq/#1
—
Isn’t prostitution a choice between two consenting adults?

Most women enter prostitution because of lack of choice and many are coerced by pimps or traffickers. 75% of women in prostitution became involved when they were children (Women’s Resource Centre, 2008)”
—-
(All of these FAQ seem to use foreign, mostly UK statistics, despite the fact that the demographics of sex work are very different even in the UK, not least because the UK has a much larger population and affords far greater opportunities for the anonymity essential to a sex worker. The UK also has a very different care system.)

In fact the 75% figure was taken from 2007 Womens Resources Centre uk statistics making a case for decriminalising sex workers, at least under 18. If only because of the greater anonymity, underage sex work has always have a far greater prevalence in the UK than in Ireland, indeed, in terms of teen runaways (the bulk of underage sex workers) it is likely that is another problem we “export to the UK” The figure itself originated in a 1995 study (Benson, C. and Matthews, R. (1995), Street prostitution: Ten facts in search of a policy in International Journal of Sociology of the Law, Vol. 23, pp395-415) that is hard to pin down (even as to country of origin) but may have been taken among prison populations. In 2010 the Women’s Resource centre updated their statistics significantly:
http://www.wrc.org.uk/includes/documents/cm_docs/2010/s/statistics_about_women_in_the_uk_2009_25_5_10_latest_nn_sr1.pdf
“Research compiled by the Home Office (Home Office, 2004b) shows that across the UK a significant percentage of women first become involved in prostitution before their 18th birthday. In Lambeth, at least 25% of the women interviewed as part of research in 2008 stated that they began working in prostitution aged 17 or under (Hough and Becky Rice, 2008). ”

@Dahkinta’s Sword…I have lived and breathed every word you are saying for the past 25 years, and in my heart of hearts hope that the increasingly blatant dishonesty of this particular lobby will become another thread that can be pulled to bring the who disgusting travesty don and replace it with something better…for the sake of all.

before the spelling police arrive… meant pimps and traffickers in point 1 and illegal/criminilised in point 2 :)

That would, indeed, be non-viable, except the suggestion is that the sex worker should give evidence against her client and in return have an option on suing him for distress and ptsd for enough money to “exit” sex work.

My reaction to this is unpostable in polite company

Apparently, most people who are convicted of purchasing sex, admit their “crime” to the police so that the police don’t have to prove anything. But if they did, the police/prosecution would have to prove that “touching of the genitals” took place.

The 1999 Swedish Sex Purchase Act is truly a pathetic law. In fact, it’s an evil law.

I agree. Sadly, we have the likes of Sarah Benson whose conservative monolithic agenda goes somewhere like:
“A man’s place is being independent and fulfilling his potential, just as women demand”! —- I don’t think she meant it to be, but she’s mormonic!

That is part of the madness I cannot wrap my head around, you have people who want to work, and have built up a good business…and a pack of sanctimonious vipers want to throw them on the dole instead…

Sweden’s prostitution law a success: report

http://www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/

The law will equally apply to men and women.
I’m doubtful about the Irish constitution precluding unequal treatment. Isn’t the law on consent gender specific?

SaintRuth,

The source you provided isn’t credible. I researched its background and found it comprises lobby groups from Sweden’s feminists to name a few.

The law will NOT equally apply to men and women because it criminalizes the buyer while giving the seller immunity. Under Bunreacht na H’Eireann, there are several grounds to challenge this proposed new law which I will not divulge any further. I wasn’t referring to consent either.

There are male prostitutes you know…

I mentioned consent as that’s a law which is blatantly gender specific:
“In March last year, Judge Elizabeth Dunne in the High Court upheld the constitutionality of the appalling Sexual Offences Act (2006), which discriminates between underage boys and girls who have seexual intercourse. Boys can be imprisoned for this. Girls cannot. The 21,000-word ruling may be found at courts.ie (IEC101). ”

Seems Judge Elizabeth Dunne doesn’t have a problem with unequal treatment of different genders.

It’s not the mental capacity of folks like Cllr Sinead Guckian and Cllr Enda Stenson that causes them to miss (or dismiss) so much of the human condition. It’s their eternal smug hubris that convinces them that any answers beyond their own, are products of primitive (and thus disposible) human superstitions. They have the distinct capacity to, at times, make me question (by virtue of their dogmatic temperment) their indoctrinated conservative agenda.

Prostitution should be Legalized.

Second Link:

Evidence from different countries:
http://prostitutescollective.net/2012/04/10/evidence-from-different-countries-2-2/

I believe the next government will repeal this law. These organizations often put a spin on facts to bolster their influence. Sadly, it appears the minister will relent to them. Instead of being independent from feminist organizations, he has shown how Ireland is once again becoming entrenched in the religious past.

I agree. She has a talent. She should share her story.

Eileen, thanks for your openness and honesty – we desperately need it, and we need a lot more of it too. Your story is important. Dhankina’s right – you have an amazing way with words. <3

The next government will repeal this law if it’s adopted.

Who on earth do you think will win the next election?

Fourth Link:

Sex work should be decriminalised and regulated – Institute for Security Studies report
http://prostitutescollective.net/2012/04/18/sex-work-should-be-decriminalised-and-regulated-institute-for-security-studies-report-2/

How do prove someone bought sex? Receipts? VAT Returns?

The fact is and always will be, that you only go looking for it when you are not getting it at home, and that means with a prostitute , one night stand, bit on the side etc , so this legislation is pointless and nothing will change,another waste of time and resources, you will never stop the oldest profession in the world.

This Smacks of opportunism for the power hungry busybodies which populate local councils latching onto topical issues to ‘Make Names for themselves’ and move on up the ladder.

@ James

This law will be repealed by the next government.

Who is being exploited the seller or the buyer???

@Gavin: Imagine one of your own family was selling their body, for what ever reason, I doubt you’d be playing to the crowd with jokes about it then.

What CONSENTING adults do that doesn’t harm others is their own business.

What the hell are you talking about?!

What goes on between two consenting adults is their own business and not the Govts or anyone elses.

I am totally against the exploitation of anyone or human trafficking but paying for sex between two consenting adults is a private matter.

Alan, imagine one of *your* own family could not get enough money to eat and keep a roof over their head and they was no way you coul help them. Would you rather they sell sex, or die destitute on the streets?

I see no one dears to express views on women that are close and speacial to them, as they could not be among these ‘consenting adults’. It is really that simple – if it is bad for them, it is bad for women who are strangers to you.

Look into it a little and you’ll see why. Persecuting people who sell sex is a bad idea when they have no other means to an income. It’s not like we’re swimming in great job opportunities here…

I hate the way people like you make out that they are all forced into this either physically or financially. While I feel sorry for the proportion that and hope they’re helped, the way you make out skimpily isn’t the case in Ireland and you know this.

It’s not illegal because that would force it further underground and those working in it would have even less rights than they do now. Also, why shouldn’t someone sell sex?

I love lamp: Okay…so the people who aren’t forced into it – do they weigh up all their life choices and say “hmm…yeah I’ll choose prostitution as a viable career”? In your eyes prostitution is a filthy business – why would anyone pick that over something more worthwhile?

You’re presuming a hell of a lot – do you even know why people go into prostitution in the first place and what they feel about it? I’d imagine you like to steer clear of them as if they’ve caught the plague, judging by how you talk.

I personally have no problem with people choosing prostitution and there are people who choose to do so without being forced, yes – more power to them.

Ill take it then that you would have no problem with a child of yours becoming a prostitute?

I would not have a problem with a child of mine choosing to be a sex worker, because if that is what they want it is none of my business.

I always feel that people should be allowed to make their own choices, because I do not know enough about their life to make the best decision for them.

It’s not really a matter of if I have a problem with it or not, though. It’s their life. Obviously I’ll want to support my children in anyway I can and if I can help them I will – but it IS their decision in the end. Life isn’t perfect, people have to make lots of tough decisions. I certainly wouldn’t look down on them or judge them like you do, I love lamp, if they chose to be a sex worker.

Seriously warped individuals. I feel sorry for you.

Suzanne,

Ruhama and the Immigrant Council proclaim that prostitution is “forced” – this is untrue. Most prostitutes offer business out of their own accord. This is a well-known fact across Ireland. I’m not denying that organized trafficking gangs exist but legalizing it would put crime gangs out of business. This was proven in other countries that legalized it. Legalizing it also leads to falling demand –

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brothels-cut-prices-to-beat-the-recession-1674400.html

It would be more appropriate to make trafficking a crime like in the Netherlands which carries a 5-8 year sentence. Having a legal prostitution industry in the Netherlands generates € 625 Million a year to the exchequer. Prostitution in Germany is a recognized job which women are happy to freely choose, thus avoiding any social welfare from the state.

The legalization of prostitution has led to better health conditions in countries which legalized it, such as Senegal:
“In Senegal, HIV prevalence among pregnant women has been below 1% for more than a decade. A strong multisectoral response, and early legalization of prostitution have been credited for this low level. Not only has there been a significant decline in STD rates among sex workers and pregnant women between 1991 and 1996, but genital ulcers are also no longer common and chancroid is reportedly rare.” – http://www.liberator.net…;

This shows that when the sex industry is legalized and regulated, the workers within it are less prone to STD’s than in the illegal sex industry. STD’s have declined significantly since prostitutions legalisation, even in a country with a low HDI of 0.464 and per Capita GDP of € 1,327. As for the feminist stance on prostitution, they are still split over the issue {[http://www.feministissues.com...]. The objectification of their argument fails on the ground that it presumes prostitution is an exclusively female trade. Male prostitutes do exist, and so prostitution leads to the objectification of men. Thus, prostitution objectifies both sexes, and is not an exclusively female issue. Regardless, every trade objectifies women, or men.

Ultimately you are threatening to jail someone (should he or she try to engage) because of a particular interpretation you have placed on their consensual sexual acts. This also nullifies the recent constitutional amendment on “consent”. Ireland has relatively low levels of prostitution by comparison to other mainland European countries. The recent hyperbole by the media about prostitution in Ireland should be interpreted with extreme caution and skepticism. Likewise the aforelisted organizations that may allow bias to creep into any decision making.

No it didn’t. Hear we go again SaintRuth! Yep the feminine conservative system of which you lament and lament and lament in these threads allows us all (even you) to be silly and avaricious; wise and charitable; stupid and crude; smart and good – yup – the societal latitudes of individual conservatism that simply allow us the most generous range of behaviors to be who we, as humans, can be.

We all understand those realms of freedom and choice don’t fit your controlled (the most good for the most people) model – an epical failure,by the way.

Prostitution is among your “generous range of behaviours”?

The internet seems to be full of Libertarians. Thankfully, they don’t exist much outside of the journal.ie…

SaintRuth,

Ask yourself why this law is being proposed when the next government will simply repeal it. Don’t ask the “liberals” – ask the realists.

As I said, who on earth do you think is going to win the next election?

You’re right Suzanne! There’s probably a million things they’d rather do – but then again you could say the same thing if you took a job in a fast food restaurant where you get shouted at, harassed by customers and spend most of your time mopping up sick. We’re all surviving in this world as best we can and some people have more options than others, it’s not fair to judge one person’s way of surviving than any other.

But punishing people who buy sex – while it sounds good in theory – is actually a really bad and dangerous idea. Prostitutes still need to earn a living and they will go to greater extremes to attract customers. In Sweden, where this is law already, what’s happened is that prostitutes have to rely a lot more on pimps to get the customers – customers which are harder to screen because everything is done so secretively. It’s meant a rise in prostitutes being exploited by pimps, and strangely a rise in trafficking too.

It just doesn’t work at all.

It’s also meant a spike in violence against prostitutes. Here’s a decent article about it all if you want to get stuck in! http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/there-was-no-lack-of-buyers-swedish-sex-trafficking-trial-concludes/

SORRY: this is the article I meant to post (though the other one is interesting too) http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/unaids-advisory-group-condemns-swedish-sex-purchase-ban/

I admit, Eleen, I have quite mixed feelings on whether it should be an offence, but I’d like to believe everyone can agree that the priority should be things like access to sexual health, prosecuting exploitative pimps and those who rape sex workers (accepting sexual violence should not be part of their job description.)

Just realised my post was unclear – obviously I didn’t mean sex work itself!

@ Suzanne why punish those that buy sex?

Suzane,

Most girls should be allowed decide for themselves – not by neo-conservatives like you. You wrongly support the neo-catholic criminalization of just the buyer: no, that would create unequal criminalization but in a woman’s world, it’s apparently ok to criminalize the man.

The whole ethos and media lies about prostitutes is that they are beaten, drugged-up slaves. I know many have drug problems, but so have some of my “normal” friends! They sell an essential service and always will.

Tim – I don’t know how much of a “woman’s world” we live in (I don’t agree that they’re trying to target men with this legislation – they are targeting the buyers who happen to be mostly men – and why is that, do you think?), but you’re right about the media propaganda which sensationalises and de-humanises sex workers or turns them all into helpless victims.

And Nick: I understand the feeling behind making it an offense to buy sex, it just doesn’t make any logical sense when you look at it is all. Why take away a person’s income if you’re trying to help them? And why is there a stigma about buying sex? I’m still ambivalent about it – I don’t like the idea of people (men) assuming they have a right to sex – there’s something very wrong about that line of thinking. But then again, the reasons people go to prostitutes varies a huge amount and who are we to judge? I’d care more that the clients were respectful and honoured their agreements with whoever they’re doing business with. The more power sex workers have over their work – the more rights they have – the better able they are to dictate their terms and deny any disrespectful or violent customers their service. (well, that’s the dream anyway).

Also Nick, I agree with you about what we should be doing.

Andrew: you’re being silly. Not even in the jurisdiction with the most liberal prostitution law in the planet, New Zealand, is their national employment agency required to advertise positions in prostitution. In fact, they’re banned from doing so.

Time for you to start having a little think yourself Andrew because that is one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever read.

Why is it ridiculous gentlemen? You can’t have it both ways. Either prostitution is a perfectly acceptable form of employment, equivalent with working in a fast food joint, as you maintain, or it isn’t. And if it is a perfectly acceptable job, that we are all capable of doing obviously, then it is ye that has a distinctly discordant line of thinking on the issue.

Btw, Paul, if NZ thinks it’s a great job, why do they ban the advertising of vacancies? Can you name me any other occupation where a potential employer is banned from advertising vacancies? Go on, I can wait.