Thank you very much for the clarification, I was hoping to get a professional opinion on it. With all you’ve said in mind, what would you change in the system? I’m writing a book about politics and would like to hear a teachers opinion in terms of education and about the 4PM, I know I’ve ran into teachers leaving my school at 9 or 10PM on a Friday night.

Teachers and their unions were the first to jump on the benchmarking bandwagon! How you can benchmark teaching against a proper job in the private sector is beyond me. In my experience, most of the teachers I’ve had dealings with are reality dodgers.

Hi Niamh, when you state quality of education is affected by a 20% increase in class size, can you confirm whether that is an opinion or evidence based?

@ Neil.

Ah yes the old public v private debate. Still keeping that old bandwagon rolling I see. How can you roll out that kind of rabble when workers across both sectors are getting walloped while the top earners and those who caused the crisis get away scot free? Here are some interesting facts for you. Pay cuts in the public sector have been more severe than in the private. Job cuts in the private sector have been more severe than in the public. Neither are desireable and neither affect those who caused the problem. Ergo, workers are being hammered while the ruling and financial “elite” who caused this problem are not. But why let that help you see things more clearly? There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!

I wouldn’t mind if they had a bench with one big desk if it was cheaper than individual chairs and desks so long as we can keep a fair ratio and employ enough teachers then that’s fine by me.

@ Sean. I would like to point out that a teacher DOES NOT earn €65k on point 15 of the scale. It’s €50k and even at point 25 it’s €60k. It can be looked up online. I criticise the general public for slating us and then teachers misinform them!

Mark! You’re talking nonsense! Firstly if you took time to read what I wrote, you’ll see that it’s Teachers I’m slating! Not the complete public service, as you imply. Secondly you state that public servants are suffering as much as private sector workers! That has to be the most stupid statement that’s ever been voiced on these pages! How many public servants do you know that have faced compulsory redundancy? How many public servants do you know that have been paid the basic statutory payment when they’ve taken voluntary redundancy? How many public servants do you know that have lost their whole defined benefit pension? For you to say that we’ve all suffered equally is complete nonsense! If you must make statement on this, I suggest you do a bit of homework first!!

Neil,

If it’s education alone you want to talk about, then fine, let’s do so. In teaching alone, there have been 2,500 job losses since 2008. That’s not including the anticipated 800 job losses in September due to the including of guidance counsellors in the school teacher quota. On top of that, there have been 150 SNA posts lost and there will be another 100 teachers lost in rural and DEIS schools. So by September 2012, there will have been 3,550 job losses in front line education. ALL of these are compulsory redundancies in effect but not called such due to the fact that these teachers are not on permanent contracts. However it takes, on average, 8 years for a secondary school teacher to gain a permanent contract. As they are not permanent, they have not been paid any redundancy pay. As regards pensions, I don’t know of any retiring teachers having their pensions cut. However, I can tell you that teachers entering the system (those lucky to get in seeing as there is a recruitment and promotions embargo) will pay more into their pensions than they are ever likely to get in return. This is contained in the Trident Report, should you care to read up on it.
In relation to the wider issues, public servants now have 14% on average, taken by statute in order to pay into their pensions. This is far more than the average of 5% that is taken in the private sector. Also, as I have mentioned, the average pay cut in the public sector was 17%. This is compared to 6% in the private sector. However, as I have mentioned already and you have alluded to, there have been more job losses in the private sector. This is wrong too. My point is merely this, that workers across the country in both the public and private sector are experiencing huge reductions in their pay packets and diminishing work conditions. I am sick to death of the public v private agenda as it merely serves the government/employer agenda to drive down pay and conditions in ALL sectors. I never said that we are suffering equally; I said that we are all suffering. We are suffering in different ways while those who caused the problems in our financial institutions and our political establishment are not suffering. To say my statement is stupid and to say that I’m talking nonsense is to ignore the pay cuts, diminished working conditions and staff reductions in education, which no doubt suits your simplistic teacher bashing agenda. I have done my homework, I respectfully suggest you do yours.

partly, most kids will do well with whatever is thrown at them, we underestimate them. bad teachers instill their dislike of a subject to the children their meant to teach! goverment are not meant to punish those who cannot fend for themselves. but teachers need to realise that had it far to good for far to long.

Can I infer from your comment that you approve prioritising health over education when funds are limited?

Unfortunately that is likely, we did vote in a conservative party.

That figure is according to 2008 statistics. With the cuts in pay of approximately 17% on average coupled with 2,500 job losses since then, it is estimated that 65% of the DES budget is currently spent on salaries. However, investment in education places us 2nd last in OECD. We also have the 2nd largest class sizes with our classes being 20% larger than the EU average.

Yes, hit the red thumb. Heaven forbid that we should confuse the issue with facts.

I stand corrected. yet if you held an A post and included degree and dip allowance, you might find a figure closer to 65k. I should have been a bit clearer in my estimation.

what you don’t seem to realise with two teachers and fifty children is that each teacher could have four classes, I.e. junior infants to 2nd and 3rd to 6th! i would like to see you teacher bashers manage four classes full of children together in one room while teaching a child centered curriculum of 11 subjects and still have the time to give each child the precious individual attention and support that they need and deserve!

@ Mark. Just to clarify. A teacher’s salary does not automatically increase on the increment scale every year. At certain points on the scale it remains stationary for a number of years.

it’s not the teachers who will suffer

Spot on Paddy! A teacher wouldn’t know what a days work is!

Excellent soundbytes Neil and Paddy. Well thought out, purposeful and enlightening. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to the debate or are you happy to trot out one liners without any purpose?

Do something in the interests of the econony? Like take a 17% pay cut, have 2,500 compulsory redundancies, work longer hours, teach bigger classes, agree to have teachers redeployed and have reduced pension entitlements? Crikey, when you put it like that, it seems that those parasitic teachers really ought to start playing their part!

???

If you cut lunch in secondary schools the savings in teachers and staff pay allow you to employ an additional 750 jobs(500 part time and 250 part time), I honestly don’t know why so many people have a problem with employing people. I never said take any classes of or anything, there would be no effect on the education what so ever if this where done as it is only non-educational time being cut.

*correction 500 full time.

I think people misunderstood as I worded it slightly in the wrong way.

teachers don’t get paid for lunch-only the hours they teach.presume your talking about supervision and substitution rates? and a lot of teachers aren’t in that scheme…don’t think how a 15minute break through 7 hours dealing with teenagers would be good for teachers heads or health ;-) granted there might be a free class on some days but not always

I’m pretty sure they get paid for lunch maybe I’m wrong but if I’m not then we need to change that, there is no point in having junk in the system. I know some people(and i am going to ask for a teachers opinion on this) want junk subjects removed from the system also(such as SPHE and CSPE), we moan about people and parties but we all seem to forget to talk about the failing systems.