That’s a pretty average day in the Dáil chamber, unfortunately. It had been packed earlier this morning for Leaders’ Questions but it emptied out afterwards when the regular business started up.

They were all in bed.

in the dail bar

They were all in bed, God love them thats all they good for.

How do you know they’re good in the sack Deirdre? Only joking

there gone to count the 3.6billion

As someone who used to work in the Dáil I can tell you that the majority of government TD’s tend to sit in their offices where Dáil proceedings are shown on a monitor. Then when there is a vote on something they all run into the chamber when the bell rings to vote against the opposition.

Sinn Féin have no fiscal power in the Northern Executive and cuts are laid down by London.

Funny how when sinn fein say they have no power over fiscal cuts in the north everyone agrees with them but when the gov here say the same thing(let’s face it we owe so much money that we don’t have a say) there is up roar. Don’t see sinn fein walking out of the assembly

E32,000,00,000 ???????? I think you’re figures are off slightly.

Eh Cormac fiscal power was given away in the south. SF in the south are working to get fiscal power, its not comparable in anyway other than it shows up FG who are doing nothing to get back powers!

Here here!!! So true Eire..

Empty promises,but seriously do you expect your Tds to do their Christmas shopping while they are on holiday.

Spot on

Yeah, it’s €700million. It just goes to show that “millions” and “billions” are thrown around so much now that no one (except you and a select few others) actually noticed.

Fixed. Sorry about that.

On another note, welcome Christine, and best of luck to you!

Be gentle with us, we’re a nice bunch really :)

Cheers, Sean. It’s hard facts we need.

Cheers Sean,
Have emailed Enda, should get a response….any moment now.
Everyone should email

Makes sense now. We are being forced to pay back German interests.

pretty much main stream institutions, probably some irish pensioners in there

This is the same list that has been around for a while, right?

Would be particularly interested in finding about the hedge funds that fairly recently bought government guaranteed debt at knock down prices, looking at 70% profits, according to one report.

Just emailed him the list myself, can’t wait to hear his reply, and wait and wait and wait.

I see Goldman Sachs Asset Management are on the supposed list of bondholders. If that is so should not a certain prominent person have declared their interests when telling us we must follow the troika’s directions and when advocating a no vote in last weeks referenda?

Got it in one sentence. Numbers on a page.

Because that would take brains and leadership … our current government have neither vision or strategy. They are leading us down a very bad path. Sarkozy, horrible little git that he is, stood up for French tax-payers and said he would not impose the French exposure to Greece on the people of France. He has gotten away with it. our Enda, only wants to get gold stars from the European leaders, so that he can have more photo ops with Sarkozy and Merkel. Its pretty sad really. We need strong leadership, and i dont think anyone in this country voted for the type of leadership every TD in FG/Labour are showing right now. We must get legislation into our Dail procedures that allow individual TDs to vote without the threat of Party Leader Whips expelling them etc. Otherwise, they are all as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike. Fair play to SF for highlighting that not every TD in the Dail is willing to kow-tow to Merkel and Sarkozy. If this country is still in existence in 3.5 years, then the people will have their chance to tell FF/FG/Labour what they think of their European policy. The Greeks rejected the 220billion debt policy of Europe and after playing chicken with Germany and France, they got a reduction of 100billion in the space of 3 weeks. We need to do the same here. But zero chance of it, as long as FG/Laour are at the helm.

Good Question David and I have a theory on that…..
The same guys that work in ECB/IMF/Financial circles work in or invest in investment funds and/or hedge funds. As Ireland was struggling to borrow again to pay back these bonds in 2010 the bonds that were maturing later were selling at 30-60% of original value. Ireland couldn’t buy them back because of the expensive interest rate we had so these guys snapped them up, gave Ireland the bailout and the liquid funds to pay the bonds when they matured, this is the reason why these bailout payments are given in tranches and not all at once. In the meantime they insist that Ireland pay these bonds at 100% so they can, in some cases, triple their money while threatening to cut off the very money that is used to pay them back!!
Is this a bit far fetched?

Thats a gamble, pension fund managers take. They spread the risks around the world in different funds, not just Anglo. So that is a pretty weak argument. Yes, some pensions may be impacted slightly. And yes, some individuals in this country may be impacted. But paying out in full, the way the Government are doing it, means EVERY tax payer in this country is going to feel the impact of the Governments strategy. This is just plain nuts.

I hope mine is in there for bit of that, it wasn’t such a gamble really given the overtures coming from brussels last year, doubt if they will reinvest in similar though. Buying Irish bank shares a few years ago would have been considered very prudent.

Thats what I thought too but they aren’t…mostly banks, read above post from sean where bondholders are named, makes depressing reading, we are robbing the poor to give to the rich.

Sean o’keefe post…

You could always put it in a fund here and have the state pilfer your nest egg.
Ask the Tara miners.

Whatever about primary investors, sourly there’s no way that anyone could justify rewarding these vultures?

Are you suggesting we shouldn’t have an opposition? Are you suggesting that SF should not represent the views of those that voted for them?

Face. Palm.

Opposition Party Opposes government!

Good grief.

What next? A bears sh1ts in a wooded area?

they are in power in the north, but also in the lucky position of being not responsible for fiscal matters, they can blame london when there’s no money

Of course we should have an opposition, I just think Sinn Fein only ever says they’re against everything. They say they’re against cutbacks, taxes, the bailout etc. I think we need more genuine solutions from opposition not sound bites like “bailout the people, not the banks”.

When did Sinn Féin say they were opposed to cutbacks and taxes? Perhaps you should to do some research before making such silly statements.

Such a lazy and facile comment which just goes to highlight the level of ignorance that passes for political discourse in this sad little country of ours. No wonder another generation of Gombeen men and women have been elected as our government here in the 26 counties – carrying out the exact same policies that were roundly rejected by the people last February. Please at least read up on the policies of all political parties – including Sinn Féin – before posting comments that make absolutely no sense whatsoever! For the record Sinn Féin is the only party in Leinster House to have produced substantive arguments and fully costed alternatives to the ‘austerity’ measures being implemented by Fine Gael and Labour and before them by Fianna Fáil since the beginning of the financial crisis. The party isn’t ‘opposed’ to everything. It is opposed to reckless economic policies that will punish the most vulnerable in society and further depress the economy while rewarding those who caused the economic crisis in the first place – domestic and international speculators and gamblers.

In fairness we might have found out what alternatives SF have if the government had agreed to hold a debate on the payment of the the bond. I doubt very much the ECB would have stopped lending even if we had defaulted. They will be paying over something like €8 billion to the Greeks later this month and that’s even after the new plan for the Greeks to have a referendum on the bailout.

The reality is that the EU can not afford any country to go wallop as the threat to such countries as Italy or Spain is too great. Bottom line is the ECB would have continued paying. Of course the bright sparks in our government haven’t copped that.

Daniel, its not just SF that have advocated reneging on unsecured debt. SF has acknowledged that it must pay off secured debt (that was rightly or wrongly secured by the last Government). Unsecured debt is not a pre-requisite to any loan agreements we have with the Troika. Its is not written into any legal agreemtn full stop. FF/FG/Labour are being told verbally by their EU masters, that the must pay unsecured debt, all the while France is getting EU funds to bail out French banks that have exposure to Greek Bank fallout. So, its a case that the French are telling us to do what they say, but not what they do.
All the senior international econmonists are rubbing their eyes in disbelief at the actions of our Government. They are saying it doesnt make any sense whatsoever. Even independent Irish economists are saying that the Governments plan is crazy. The alternative is to tell the EU that we will honor all Government secured debt, but that is it. On top of that, we must ask the EU to reduce this secured det burden, in the same manner they have reduced the Greek debt burden. France would have been in exactly the same boat as us in the last 2 months, if the French banks had not received a massive bailout by the EU Central bank. The French banks were at hig-risk of collapse if this had not happened. The only difference is that the French situation and ours, is that sarkozy emphatically told the EU that the French people would not pay for the bailout.
If you listen to the Government, we hve no choice. But we do … We are still complying to our loan agreement from the Troika, even if we dont pay the unsecured debt. So our banks dont run out of money, the way the Irish Government parties (FF/FG/Labour) are telling us they will.

@ Kerry there is nothing stopping SF from going to the media or publishing alternatives on their website. During leader’s questions Gerry Adams could have (but didn’t) offer up an alternative. The fact that the debate was voted down means other TDs weren’t inclined to give them time to grand stand and, complain, insult, and offer no constructive alternatives. This has been the trend established by SF when they are indulged.

You doubt that the ECB would have stopped lending? You DOUBT? Is that a risk you’re willing to take, to gamble with the funding of our country? How about getting some evidence first. As far as the Greeks go, that default was negotiated WITH the ECB, not without them like you are suggesting. Enda and this government went to the ECB, they said “no”.

The E.U., can and will cut out member states it can not afford to bail out.

@ Cal mooney

Cal, with what money do we run the country with if we default. It is a very simple question.

@Daniel, we have a legally binding loan agreement with the Troika that says we must pay secured debt. its also says that we must reduce our spending deficit to sustainable levels by 2015. We are on course to do this, through the Austerity regime we have embardhed upon. We are expecting to be at approx 8.6% in 12 months.
The Troiks has agreed to continue lending to us, as long as we continue on this journey.
So, if the Government decides not to pay unsecured debt, what justification would the Troika have for pulling the plug on a legally binding agreement?
Are you saying the Troika would stop giving the money out of spite? How would they justify that to the world bankers? Seriouly, tray and explain to teh world, that while the Irish Government met every milestone on its bailout plan, the troika decides to pull the plug mid-way. How do you think the world markets will react to that? The French will never be able to borrow a penny on open markets for at least 10 years.
Please tell me where you see the flaw in my argument.

yeah, their solution is to not burden the taxpayer with this bull, and tell the unguaranteed bondholders to take a hike, this little gamble didnt pay off!

Daniel – to be clear from the outset, I’m a dismayed, wavering lifelong Labour supporter.

I do think that this warranted a debate, there’s an important point at issue – should we, the taxpayers, blindly fund the gambling debts of a global elite?

Under what circumstances should we renege or insist on a haircut?

What portion of the “national” debt is possibly negotiable, per Troika?

You may look at it as Sinn Féin grandstanding, but I would be very interested to see the government justify paying unsecured speculators out of the public coffers. I remain to be convinced that there are any cogent reasons as to why this should be done.

Its easy James… Stop reading articles with SF in the Title.

“grow up and act like adults”. You mean join with everyone else in the great bend-over ?

@James D, was Sinn Fein the only party to walk out of the Dail today? If not why did you not name the other party/people? If you can please answer.

Point of order Enda Kenny and Fine Gael reduced the interest rate by two percent and renegotiated the terms, as they campaigned they’d do. They never said they’d “tell Europe what to do”. They never even implied that! They are a pro-Europe party, as are Labour. If that’s news to you then you haven’t been paying attention the last odd 30 years. How about this slogan “Europe, lets be at the heart of it”.

The only anti-Europe party we have in Dail is SF, and they can’t offer up any alternative, let alone a realistic one!

Point of order?

Unsecured creditors don’t get on great in any bankruptcy/liquidation, I think you’ll find.

If we can get away without paying tranches of “national debt” such as this, then let’s not. Or if there are pressing reasons, let’s attempt to negotiate more favourable terms.

But, I think the onus is squarely on the Government to justify paying out this money, and it is very worrying that there was no debate or persuasive argument put forward … to quote Enda, “Paddy likes to know what the story is”.

Mark Rodgers@ ” the lowest levels of a society ” What an appalling comment !

Your not alone on that thought.