Fair play for that link..really pisses me off that people stick up for Cameron for protecting his countries interests when in reality he’s protecting is a select few extremely wealthy individuals who get special treatment because they are located in the city of London?!!

If Enda or any Irish politician made and move to do something similar in Ireland there would be uproar!!? People really need to actually analyze what’s going on rather than just giving out about the irish gov and blindly praising what other governments do

Short memory Chris, weren’t FF just as bad. I seem to remember that developers were their primary donors and were protected in return. NAMA set up just before they were booted out, and, now, developers who cooperate get €200,000. Irish politics tends to be Dublin centred too, receiving most of the investment during the boom. The people of Roscommon were in “uproar” over losing their general hospital but it was still shut down. They can only hope they survive the journey to Galway. All to save a few bob to pay Fingleton/Cowen/Ahern etc. their huge pensions.

Knew from beginning Tories only protect their interests not those of their country. But do understand why Irish people might be fooled by his stance. My Irish fingers would never type support for Tories in any circumstance.

I still think the euro is over. Too many powerful nations and Ireland just too small to have a real say. Real lack of trust in Ireland atm and wonder why? If this new move puts it up to the Markets great but don’t hold out much hope.

@Chris and what do you think the EU is up to? I see that part of this new agreement is to totally rule out at debt sharing / write downs. Who do you think that protects?

Dont get me wrong, im not saying that FF werent just as bad or even that FG are any better…all im saying is that peolpe blindly look at other countries and say “thats how things should be done, why cant our guys do something like that”. When in reality other countries are as corrupt/messed up as we are

By uproar i mean that people on this site, and the average man in the street would be giving out!! not neccesarily that anything would ever get done about it

I agree with your last comment Chris. There are other countries that are more corrupt than this one, the difference is that people there do not just accept it.

“shure dere all the same” is just the cowards or the lazy response. It is that attitude that allows corruption here. No one is held accountable, no one is rejected by the electorate.

Once the local voter gets a medical card at 65, he’ll happily drive his kids to the airport and praise his local FG/FF TD on the way.

If he had a brain and wasn’t lazy every time FF or FG did something wrong he would send a letter or an email to his local TD, phone them up, to complain. Any time it was criminal or against the interest of the country, he would have marched outside the Dáil. Basically he would have acted like a normal human being in most countries, but then what would the Bishop say, or he might not get the slop of tar on the road.

There are a lot of bone lazy and cowardly people in this country, the majority in fact, who always have some excuse to stay at home, some excuse not to contact their TD or take action.

Drive your children to the Airport, vote FG/FF but don;t dare sicken the rest of us bu saying you miss your children in Australia. You made your choice.

You’re spot on Chris and Tim. Corruption is rife throughout politics worldwide, mostly as it seems to attract people who just want the power and the perks, rather than people who genuinely want to better their country. Tim is dead right in saying that voters are really only concerned with local politics, rather than the big picture. I know people who have voted FF/FG all their life just because that’s who their families always voted for, and would do so again tomorrow if an election were to be called, regardless of what emerged in the interim. As for protests, I do agree that we are too quiet as a nation, willing to lie down and take whatever is dishes out, but the flip side is that people died in Greece during their protests, which were fairly vociferous, to say the least. But their families have to live with the loss of a loved one, while Greece continued with the bailouts and austerity packages. Faceless bankers really rule the world.

Rich bankers can today be exposed as a ­huge drain on society… ­costing the rest of us £8.40 for every £1 they produce.

Advertisement >>

A study by think-tank the New Economics Foundation found the average banker destroys ­£42million a year in value while creating just £5million.

Meanwhile hospital cleaners on £6.26 an hour are worth £10 for every £1 they cost because they prevent superbugs, saving the economy a fortune.

The shock figures fly in the face of claims that bankers like Barclays boss Bob Diamond – paid £4.4million in 2010/11 – are worth vast ­bonuses because of their ­contribution to the economy.

Their drain on the country is caused by the cost of bailing out banks brought to their knees by the credit crunch and the ­devastating impact of the ­crisis their recklessness caused.

NEF found that tax ­accountants who help the rich cut their bill were even worse value, ­costing us £47 for every £1 they create.

Meanwhile low-paid public sector workers like nursery ­workers and bin men were found to more than earn their wages.

Helen Kersley from the NEF said: “We get a huge tax ­contribution from the City but it pales into insignificance next to the damage from the financial crisis in terms of unemployment, bailing out banks and leaving us with a massive public debt.”

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/12/11/bankers-cost-each-one-of-us-8-40-for-every-1-they-produce-study-shows-115875-23626708/#ixzz1gQiGS3HF

@Tim Greece and Italy are more corrupt than us yes ,but they just accepted two scumbag corrupt bankers as their leaders with just a whimper of protest so I don’t get you’re point .The hero of the liberal talking heads on here Obama spent $700mil getting elected $550 of that came from Wall St .The Labour party in The UK spent millions in union money to stay in power and in return created a million (mostly unnecessary ) union public sector jobs that are now a massive drag on the UK economy .Most politicians are full of sh*t only difference is the smell

I would rather stick with Britain our biggest enemy and greatest friend than follow those wa**kers in Europe, we’re more like our British friends than our Euro counterparts whether we want to admit it our not.

That’s just not true. Even with the best efforts of the PDs to steer us in the direction of the Anglo-Saxon neoliberal model, we’re still a much more communitarian society than the UK, thankfully – we have more in common with other lapsed Catholic countries on the continent, if you can get over the language barrier.

You’re right that Britain are our biggest enemy … wouldn’t be so sure about the “greatest friend” bit, though.

@Niall – could you elaborate on your comment that Britain is our biggest enemy. It’s a big claim

800 years of oppression, Paul ;)

But, nah, that comment was typed in haste, should’ve left off the last line – was on my way off to lunch.

I do genuinely find this “Britain is our biggest friend” line hard to swallow, even if we’re to take the willful destruction of our language, the attempt to destroy our cultural traditions and the obvious injustice of their colonial administration as water under the bridge, I don’t find the British establishment to be very friendly to the periphery of their own country, never mind us – the north of England, Scotland and Wales have gotten a pretty raw deal over the past 30 years. Don’t think that we could expect much better.

There are a lot of people spinning this Britain is our greatest friend twaddle, for their own purposes, More to do with desiring that we go back in time, than anything to do with economics,

We have people we work with for mutual benefit if possible, that is all there is. There are no friends in international relations. London or Brussels are not concerned about our well being. They have their own objectives.

It is like normal life, help others if you can, but 90% of the help is going to have to come from yourself,

I was telling an English friend, that their are a small but vocal minority here harping on about joining up with Britain. He just laughed, it was like Normandy asking to join, as far as he was concerned.

The English economic model is quiet different to ours, the fact that London is one of the leading financial capitals of the world, that they have 60mn people, very large multi nationals seems to have been missed by people like Jeasus.

It is a different economy, different needs and it is 2011. Not 1801.

@Niall what are you on the French /Germans / Italian and the rest don’t give a rats ass about Ireland and apart from the EU we don’t have very much in common .Now lets see biggest trading partner = UK ,largest investor in Irl =UK, most tourists = UK ,only independent contributor to Irish bailout =UK 8billion ect ect. Cultural links = Common law (jury trial, presumption of innocence ect) political system a cross between uk/usa (both systems invented by old British guys).Not to mention police systems ,university system and the side of the road you drive on.Football and Rugby? and lastly this language you hate is the major reason Ireland get billions in investment from other English speaking countries !

Who says I hate it? I’m just pointing out that we have history, although plenty of other peoples speak their mother tongue in day to day life, as well as a lingua franca, but ours has been willfully driven to near extinction.

And you think the British give a “rats ass” about Ireland?

Investment does not equate to friendship, it’s about extracting profit. Think they do it because they like us? And do you think that the independent bailout contribution might have something to do with the degree of their exposure in this country? Very nice of them, giving us money that’s going straight back to them, only with the Irish taxpayer footing the bill.

I don’t regard the political and legal system as a particular cultural link, I still regard them as something of an anomaly in a democratic republic – I would hope to see both radically retooled to fit the purpose within my lifetime. Actually, pretty much none of the stuff you cite seems to me to be a major “cultural link”, sounds more like a bunch of colonial heirlooms.

Most fundamentally, they’re still running a hierarchical medieval system in this day and age – we’re supposed to be aiming towards a broadly egalitarian republic … if our constitution is to be believed. We have much more in common with France than Britain, from that point of view.

As I said, I think that we have more again in common with other lapsed Catholic countries on the continent than with the UK, am I going to have to start citing Max Weber here?

Poor Niall having to face correction for the simple omission of the word “government” from his first post. Easy error when reacting to “greatest friend” nonsense.

Yup, really should pay more attention. I mean, some of my best friends are British, but …….

Go on then Niall, finish the rest of your sentence, ‘ some of my best friends are British but….’ but what, you absolutely cannot stand them for being British?….xenophobic much?????

Um … that was kinda a joke, Shirley.

Oh I do apologise, after reading some of your other posts I couldn’t make that connection of humour over the vitriol.

“Xenophobic” Favourite word on the Journal these days. Nobody is allowed mention historical facts anymore!

Let the record state that I’m obviously talking about the British government/establishment when I say “the British” above.

Would’ve thought it went without saying, but there you go.

Shirley come on. There was no “vitriol” in any of Niall’s comments. Truth hurts but won’t hide. Nothing he wrote could be denied. It’s the omissions he could be called up for!

Mention it as often as you like Reada, was referring to the sentence ‘ Britain ARE our biggest enemy’ by Niall, not were or was, (past tense) but are……it’s a sad state of affairs when that is STILL the view of the people of Ireland, doesnt make for a very welcoming place for the British, but then I’m not really surprised.
(oh and I couldn’t give a flying fuck how many red thumbs I get. Na night)

Wouldn’t have have thought there was much by way of vitriol there, mind, just some history and vaguely Weberian social/cultural/political interpretation.

Well I took offence to it Reada.

Well I’ll finish the sentence for him Shirley. Loads of my friends are British too and I love them, but it’s their governmental policies, in the past and some present I have objection too. And obviously I don’t care about thumbs down either.

@Niall you’re institutionally racist but you don’t have the intelligence to see it .Now you’re points what the feck does the Irish system have to do with the French Napoleonic system ? second most of the bank bailout is going to pay Wall st banks and private bond holders not the diabolical British , but obviously you’re racist attitude is ha ha fuck off were not paying ye British bastards while in fact you’re taking it up the arse so Germany can keep the Euro value low and boost it’s export balance muppet

UK chancellor George Osborne was a lone voice of support during the bailout talks, just a short year ago-the IMF had (despite their rep as global bad guys-the truth being somewhat less black or white) brokered a deal which cut €30Bn from the holdings of unguaranteed bondholders, representing something like a 60% writedown, based on figures at the time.

Our supposed BFF’s in the form of Timothy Geithner, US Treasury secretary, insisted that the full brunt of the debt be borne by the Irish taxpayers, in a submission to the G7s, via conference call. As I said above-the only one to speak up for us, and the only one to dig deep without any concessions or conditions, was Britain.

The two nations are inextricably linked, but of course that doesn’t mean we tie ourselves to Sterling. I doubt their generosity would stretch that far anyway. We’re stuck with the Euro, for obvious reasons, but that doesn’t mean we can’t start showing our teeth and pushing for some decisiveness from Europe, before the whole thing comes crashing down about our ears/

Ryan Murphy the only person on this thread that has actually identified the puppet master! geitner is pulling the strings and staying in the back ground sufficiently enough not to be conspicuous!!

its big business people and we are the pawns, there are no friends or enemies, just profit margins and bottom lines,
nations histories or past conflicts are suitable and ready distractions that astute politicians can call on to whip up populous opinion for their own gain! sure look at us, we are still driven by civil war politics.

Not true Michael. Get your facts straight. I unfortunately think the EU/EMU will push for it eventually but a homogenised European corporation tax is not included in this agreement.

That’s not true, Michael. There are no proposals at all for a common corporation tax across the EU in this deal.

Might be worth seeing what is actually in the agreement when it is finally printed before saying that the idea of a common corporation tax is not included.

What Kenny should have said is if you want Ireland to agree to this write off the 31 billion used to prop up Anglo and Irish Nationwide. We will be paying 17 billion intrest on that sum. I don’t know if history will show if Cameron was right or wrong but at least he is willing to fight for his own countries intrests as he sees them. Mean while our craven lot are doing exactly what?

Simon and Des, I dont know what is in the treaty, just as much as either of you do. Im basing my opinion from RTEs Primetime and what their sources are saying is in the deal. As Kerry suggests, maybe in March, when we see a text, we can all “get our facts straight” (I always find that phrase very much handbag warfare)

This was a joke deal and it would have been quiet apt if Enda Kenny had vetoed it, giving the reasoning, that it did nothing to address the crisis at hand but in the best tradition of the EU it looked at rules for future situations, yet rules we know will not be implemented. He would have had worldwide acclaim from economists, investors and leaders outside of Europe.

The leader of France who is tipped to replace Sarkozy has also pledged to renegotiate it. However that will not happen as it is in effect already in the water.

Have no doubt that tax harmonization will come about. They are set on that and all they will have to tell their supporters that they are being bad Europeans if they don’t. Get them waving the blue flag.

Events over the next few weeks will completely overhaul this foolish counter productive treaty. March will will be a totally different economic world. If this plan is implemented it will ensure a massive European economic turndown, that could last for years, same as our turndown has. In most European countries the people at all levels do not just lie down and take the beating, they demand that it stop. Euroskeptic MEPS will make up a significant block of the voters come.

Your probably right Tim.

@ Kerry and Michael … Indeed, we need to wait until we see the actual legal document that describes the deal in detail before passing judgement on it. I think I’ve made that very same point elsewhere. However, that doesn’t mean that we can simply ascribe any auld ideas to the deal in advance of the formal document. Nowhere in the communiqué that followed the summit nor in any of the informed media comment that followed it was there any mention made of a common corporation tax for the EU. Not gonna happen I’m afraid.

The EU just put Goldman Sachs directors in charge of Greece and Italy and the Europe bank .So the new guy in charge of Greece is the same guy who as an ex European head of Goblin Sucks then head of the Greek national bank cooked the books to hide billions in Greek debt using dodgy currency swops ???? This is the future face of EU democracy .They have no interest in saving the euro, if they did why include a financial services tax they knew Cameron couldn’t swallow and does nothing to save the Euro would the French have been ok with a 35bil tax on agriculture :) .I believe Markosy have deliberately forced the 2nd largest economy out in fear of any interference in their future control .

@Simon @Des
You might want to rethink
http://www.thejournal.ie/martin-eu-deal-leaves-ireland-vulnerable-on-corporation-tax-303956-Dec2011/

Mickie Martin … FFS. If he’s who you’re relying on, then you’re in big trouble :-)

Irish democracy I remember that