What is needed is more support for positive parenting education. Everyone does the classes teaching us how to push them out… But what do we do after that. If parents aren’t confident in their parenting ability then children will lack direction and discipline.

Fook off from our family?

Wheres the limit Mjhint? Sticks and hurleys? Closed fists?

Don’t be a fool, if you can’t push an adult without it being counted as assault then surely you shouldn’t slap a child without it being counted.

Violence and authoritarianism seem to be in the Irish psyche – how sad. See this report on how young children feel about being hit by people who are supposed to love them: http://www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk/pdfs/ItHurtsYouInside.pdf
It is ridiculous to try to say a slap doesn’t cause pain to a child – if it did not physically hurt, it would not have any effect.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1983895,00.html
The Long Term Effects of Spanking: Time Magazine article on a study published in Paediatrics magazine.

thats for sure. watched a woman in a shop recently asking her son to “would he like to put on his jacket”. he just screamed at her and kicked her in the legs. bold little bastard. everyone stood there watching her plead with him. it was pathetic. he need his arse walloped.

‘Watched a woman in a shop’ , ‘everyone stood there watching’ nosey bastards, mind your business and walk on, don’t stand around staring at people’s kids! My friend frequently has struggles like that with her kid, her kid isn’t spoiled, they’re autistic! and she has to put up with nosey judgemental fools everyday. So think the next time.

Try not to judge what you see. You only see a snippet of that persons life. The child might have issues or just be tired and cranky that day or hot and didn’t want to be there, but lacks the communicative skills to explain. The mother is only human too, she may be exhausted from work life balance and chronic lack of sleep, depression anxiety, bereavement, anything! We are always very quick to judge, I did it myself before I had children, but realise how naive and judgemental I was. Please try not to be so quick to judge

Totally agree with you. More discipline is needed but there are better ways to discipline a child without resorting to slapping.
I was never hit as a child but my partner was. When we had our first child we decided to parent without slapping and see how it would work out (my partner was totally unconvinced that it would work). Our daughter is now 8 and has never been slapped. She is respectful and very well behaved. A lot of work goes into it but it’s well worth it. Never giving in to a tantrum, removal of toys for a day or a week, positive praise when she behaves very well are just some examples.

Well said

When is this going to stop, when we have to visit our kids on jails or at the grave. Children get slapped for reasons same way we ad adults get punished by the law. We are parents and we want our kids to grow up with respect and have a good life. Can’t be done if we can’t control them.. Life is tough so as kids we need firm direction and restraints. As parents we and only us no what’s best for our kids, another ploy by the gov to remove parental rights. And yes there IIS exceptions as there is with everything

Study after study have shown that ‘spanking’ increases mis-behaviour in children. For exmaple:
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/FivePrecepts/spanking.html
Nobody is saying that children do not have to learn about the boundaries in human society and relationships – the point is that they are kids and we are adults and we need to understand that it takes time for them to learn and is an ongoing process. A toddler is literally incapable in terms of physical and emotional development of seeing another point of view. Tantrums, uncontrolled behaviour, kicking parents, etc. is normal behaviour of a young child – perhaps we need to teach child development and positive parenting in school.
I guess you can always control a child by fear or the threat of physical pain, but is it really going to have the outcome you want? All the evidence says that you can raise them with love and boundaries. That way they will develop intrinsic pro-social behaviour, rather than good behaviour only to avoid punishment and only when somebody is looking.
The idea that not slapping a child leads to them being disrespectful is ridiculous. What you model as a parent is what they are likely in the end to copy. So if you treat them disrespectfully, shout, hit, etc. then they will likely model that behaviour – if not with you then with others. I know hitting them is easier than changing yourself, but is it good parenting?

Mary, I remember excessive treatment from some teachers, it taught us nothing but disrespect for their authority

Agreed, verbal abuse can be as bad if not worse, and how can you legislate for that?

I agree totally Mary , all respect for authority slowly went out the window after 1982, I understand that children need to be protected but a change in the law is going to stop a violent person from being a violent person

Excessive is the word. Children shouldn’t be bruised. A smack on the hand by a parent does no harm to a child they love. The state intrusion into modern homes given their gross failure to protect children in their care in the past is indeed ironic. The UN have their own agenda for undermining the authority of parents in favour of the state. I often got a smack when I deserved it and I never doubted my parents loved me and wanted the best for me.

“The UN have their own agenda for undermining the authority of parents in favour of the state.”

You wonder where they find the time in between hiding all the UFOs and adding mind-control gas to commercial aircraft.

“… all respect for authority slowly went out the window after 1982″.

No it didn’t.

If France is anything to go by we may give up now… Went to Paris when pregnant with my first child and came home dreading the thoughts of being a parent!! the behaviour of some of the kids was unreal!! One family was asked to leave after the child started stabbing the mother with a fork and hitting her….. I couldn’t believe she didn’t do anything and was trying to talk him down calmly brat!

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/pdfs/hittingwrong.pdf
I know that countries that have outlawed it have had as a knock on effect a significant fall in child abuse at the more severe end of the scale as well (which is interesting) because of the change in thinking of what is OK to do to a child and increased respect in society for the physical safety of the child. There was a lot of resistance from parents at the time the laws came in but they are now generally supported – the sky did not fall in, parents are not being sent to prison, and the incidence of extreme violence against children has dropped.

Quite right – it’s a bit rich to cite Armenia and Georgia as comparable countries when the position in the UK, just over the road, is pretty much the same as in Ireland. The UK is criticised by the same UN committee, and for the same reasons, in relation to corporal punishment.

Certainly we should end the practice – it’s often noted that you can’t offer physical violence to adults in the same circumstances, so why should it be legal to attack children? But recycling a press release from Barnardo’s doesn’t really do the issue justice.

@Conor: a significant number of the countries which have not yet banned it are in eastern Europe. Armenia and Georgia were simply mentioned as two examples of countries which are in the same situation as Ireland (and which are in the minority in Europe for not yet prohibiting it).

On your second point: not sure where you got the idea that this came from a press release. I found the parliamentary question on the Oireachtas website and spoke to Barnardos to get their take on it. There was no need for the casual attack on my professionalism.

@Christine,

Looking back over this I have to apologise. Whatever about minor quibbles with how the story was presented, calling it a press release was not on. Quite apart from anything else, it’s great that the issue is being covered at all.

the naughty step is not nearly as effective as a slap. no one enjoys getting slapped so its the most effective deterent in my books.

And I’ll echo some of the other points, I think kids are far less respectful to their parents and others these days. Many are spoiled and lack boundaries. Parents will almost bend over backwards to placate a child, it’s sickening to watch. If you can communicate the idea of boundaries and consequences to a 3 year old with resorting to the odd slap, fair play. Also, check out an Australian series called ‘The Slap’ which deals with the emotive issue of someone else disciplining a persons child. It was based on a book of the same name which I also heard was good.

@David I hear ya. I can see the point that some parents maybe abusive and excessively heavy handed, but I can’t see the overall benefit of a blanket ban on this.

We’re you slapped as a child by a y chance?

@Aideen, if you are directing the question at myself, if you read the comment the answer is there.

@ who’s yer man- wasn’t responding to your comment

And here, some do that if they don’t get their way. But… There is a difference between corporal punishment and a spanking, which you got when I was a kid, and we turned out ok..a lot of kids nowadays are spoiled rotten and get away with anything.

a slap on the arse never done a child any harm. outlawed in 1982 me arse. myself and others got thumped by our headmaster and hit with rulers in the mid to late nineties.

Nothing wrong with an oul spanking. Didnt harm myself or any of my mates.

I don’t see a wave of malicious complaints by teenagers in the rest of the civilised world

Do you work in a position that would enable you to see these complaints giovanni?

It’s important everyone has respect for authority. You have to obey your headmaster. And the Gardai. And the Government. And your parents. And all your elders. And the clergy. And anyone with a reflective jacket with letters on the back.

Because if someone has authority its because they earned it and they shouldn’t be questioned. People with authority are never wrong. It’s important you learn not to assert yourself, develop your own opinions or learn to question authority. After all, they can hit you but you’re not allowed to hit them because they have authority and that makes it right.

You got a smack as a kid and now you’ve got a “healthy respect for authority”? That’s not something to be proud of.

The garda beat people with batons at protest marches i wonder why ?

Its the nature of children to test the boundaries of the world around them when they are developing, a slap from a parent tells a child that they have surpassed an acceptable level. This is crucial to their developement. We are the first generation of humans in history where this is seen as an unacceptable act by a parent and look where our society is going already.

well said.

My issue with this style comment is that your obviously looking at other peoples kids and going “they’re spoiled, they just need a lashing”, in fairness I’ve said something similar at times.

But the fact is that most don’t need a lashing to cure spoiling, they just need to not be spoiled in the first place.

Finally! Someone gets to the point!
Nobody should ever be hit or spanked or slapped or clipped or bait up or whatever. That includes children.
You wouldn’t do it to a dog, why would you do it to a child?

The flip side to this argument is where would you rather see ‘harm’. I have no issues if you want to see that I am ‘harmed’ because I believe it is okay for a parent (not any adult) to give their child (not any child) a smack on the bottom when they are bold.

For me an odd slap with a wooden spoon when younger in our family caused no issues – we are all well rounded, successful adults now, we enjoy a great relationship with our parents that is more a friendship at this stage in addition to having good manners. If my own family are as close knit and well brought up as myself and my siblings are then I will be delighted with that and am sure that even though you continue to ‘see harm’ that my children will have the same opinion as me – that it genuinely didn’t do any harm but taught valuable lessons about discipline, not always getting what you want and in general avoiding spoilt bratty children who will throw tantrums in a shopping centre because they know mammy and daddy can’t do anything about it except give into them.

Personally I see alot more harm and ramifications for a child as an adult in situations where parents try fruitlessly to discipline their children and end up giving into them – resulting in spoilt children who believe a tantrum will get them whatever they want, who have no respect for their parents or adults and no knowledge of boundaries or of behaving a particular way in different situations. I also see alot of harm in parents who do not slap their children but instead result to verbal abuse – I believe this also has a far worse impact on that child when grown up.

I see this as harming children much more than a gentle slap to remind them they can’t do whatever they want (and this is a valuable lesson for life in general).

Additionally, James, it is common practice in dog training so tap a dog firmly on the nose when it has been bold so it learns discipline – it doesn’t do them any harm either as attested by my two dogs who come running over to my car to be petted every time I come home like they haven’t seen me in about ten years.

Yeah. I remember getting clipped around the ear or whatever, and that was fine. I didn’t turn out too badly (I don’t think!).
The problem is if you allow it in certain cases, why shouldn’t you allow it in others? What’s to stop a parent giving a smack around the temple of the forehead, ultimately killing the child, when another can bash a child up and down the house with nothing more than a few cuts and bruises resulting?

I agree with your point as to how it can spiral. I agree that this loophole should be closed. The only point I was making was in relation to how Damocles said that it harms people to get an odd smack on the bottom when young, which I strongly disagree with. I believe alot more harm is done to an adult who learn as a child that throwing a tantrum and not stopping is how to get what they want.

It takes more effort and energy to develop strategies to discipline children without using force. Hitting, slapping, swatting and spanking are the most unimaginative and reactionary ways to teach children ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. I have two toddlers and can attest to the challenge of gentle discipline but I can”t see the rationale in hitting=teaching.

Both of my parents did not believe in hitting us (my 9 siblings and I) as children. Love and understanding went much further in teaching us how to respect ourselves and others. It saddens me to read others justifying being hit. It is not necessary in the pursuit of raising healthy, happy, responsible and respectful children.

I agree with you – all too often children think that a tantrum holds the key to success, and that’s most certainly not the case.
(I do have to say now that I’m not a parent!)
I think parents nowadays are far more aware of how they may be perceived if they say no and stick to it. I have a brother whose children I mind regularly – I would be far stricter than either their parents (parents acknowledge this), and their children know that if I say no, I mean no, and you can throw all the tantrums you like, but I mean no, and that’s final.
I do agree, it didn’t do me or most of my generation a bit of harm to get the odd tap, but I think there are far more profound ways of getting your point across as a parent that would stand to the child’s making far better than a smack ever will. I guess though it’s different strokes for different folks!

I agree with the lack of discipline is on the rise in society. Though I feel there are other ways of saying ‘no’ without slapping. I think the subject is very grey area, I also think parents feel guilty for both working and not seeing their kids all day because both have to work and don’t want to spend the only few hours of the day disciplining their children , they might also have had a stressful day at work or sleepless night and it may seem just easier for them to say yes all the time than energy to fight a tantrum . I don’t think parents want to deliberately spoil their children. Alot if parents are also quiet isolated from friends and family, without going tooth off the point I think the law is to protect those who are severely beaten

Lol Liam and Kenneth for lightening up the debate!!:)

Wise comment! Civilised debate! :).

the child was a lot hairier than 3. naughty step was tried and tested. it failed to have desired effect. i dont need a parenting course so dont condiscend me. you go ahead and continue ignoring your childs behave theres a good lad.

But that is the problem unfortunately, parents are not in control, or at least in that example she wasn’t, neither verbally nor physically. Trust me, when my father raised his voice we froze. Some parents lack assertiveness, and kids are quite clever in figuring this out quite quickly. You obviously can assert your control over your kid(s) verbally, which is great. You don’t resort to physical slapping, nor do you condone it. It doesn’t mean it should be banned either. If you don’t agree with it, don’t do it. Plain and simple.

More throw away remarks. Your watching too much tv. I guess your way above a parenting coarse. I have nothing to ignore my children for. They are well behaved bright & intelligent according to their peers. I will stick with the scientific view & maybe you will be successful with hitting your children. Their confidence may not though.

So who is the child’s best parent?

I would say his mother.

Ok, so how about lifting the child away from the stove, going down to their eye level, explaining that the stove is very hot, and that they shouldn’t go near it because they could get burnt.
Children are versatile human beings, you can reason with them.
Besides, if you smack a child’s hand as they reach out to a hot stove you run the risk of actually burning it.

that’s all well and good but i’ve yet to see a one and a half yr old that will understand reason, but a little slap on the and a few cross words works a treat, thats the way nature intended it.

In that event, Eoin, a firm “NO!” followed by removing the child from danger is enough.

In that case, I’d have to ask why on earth a 1.5yr old toddler was in such a position of danger. They’re toddlers, they know no better, if you let them roam… Well guess what…?

Wow.

James’ view; tell the child not to touch the stove because it will hurt you.
Eoin’s view: tell the child not to touch the stove because I will hurt you.

They both seem to require that this one and a half year old has the same understanding of cause and effect to be affective, though James’s view doesn’t require you to be willing to hurt your child to, paradoxically, prevent him hurting himself.

Lol!

Yes there was a time when a man could do as he wished to his wife , now seen as barbaric by many,
It’s time children were respected too,

Yes there was a time when a man could do as he wished to his wife , now seen as barbaric by many,
It’s time children were respected too,

“The very idea of smacking a child to discipline is all about instilling fear and hatred into the heart if a child”

Eh what? I was slapped the odd time when bold as a child as were my siblings. As I said in a post above I enjoy an excellent relationship with my parents and talk to them on the phone once or twice a day in addition to spending two out of the four weekends back home (with all of my other siblings there too), as well as going on holidays with them even though we are all in our late twenties.

Also see alot of other comments from people in this article who were the same and have great relationships with their family. You seem to have somewhat distorted views on life if you believe that a parent who smacks their child on the bottom because they have been very bold to alert them to how this is not how they should behave doesn’t ‘love’ their child.

Stockholm Syndrome.

Common sense, perspective and not being prone to melodrama actually.

Indeed Aideen, and of course you have the full weight of every evidence-based parenting programme and study behind you… as well as the experience of so many parents who are positive with their children, model self-discipline and co-operative behaviour, understand that kids are learning, and end up having truly pro-social, kind and thoughtful young people like my teenage son. I think the issue is that we are not aware just how strong conservatism and authoritarianism is rooted in the Irish psyche – our history says it all…

Because of course there was no bullying in schools in those days.
The fact is that corporal punishment was used so often and for such trivial offense and even genuine mistakes that it was imposible for even good students to avoid of it and it became an unfortunate fact of life like rainy days.
Bring back corporal punishment won’t help improve schools, all it will do is add another reason for children who hate school to hate it more and children who are afraid to go to school to be more afraid.
Ask any victim of bullying and they’ll tell you that schools more often punish the victims for standing up to bullies they they punish bullies for bullying, a situation that would be made all the worst if that child is going to get a caning instead of detention.

Who said anything about bullies? You only need to look at how Irish kids behave in restaurants to see that there is a real problem in good old Ireland