Very true.

They don’t. Only a minority of the German administration. Hence the opposition’s push for a referendum.

I said the German elite, that includes more than the government.

But not even the elite unanimously support Merkel’s strategy. The majority of industry leaders have spoken out in favour nod not ratifying the ESM treaty. Germany is and has been very divided on the issue. This has been deliberately washed over by the English language media only because it doesn’t fit with the populist-friendly simplification of Geany as the villain of this fairy-tale.

Strawman #2:

“But not even the elite unanimously support Merkel’s strategy”

-
I made no claim regarding unanimity. I haven’t poled the business class there, have you?
-

“The majority of industry leaders have spoken out in favour nod not ratifying the ESM treaty”

-
Got a source for that?

I see “straw an” is fast replacing “blueshirt” as the generic dismissal of choice. As which “blueshirt”, please inform yourself of what “strawman” actually means before using it. Otherwise it’s just parroting.

I’m well aware of what it means. You set two of them up and knock ‘em down like a pro.

Got a source for the claim you made?

It’s got nothing to do with politics and good will. If Germany controls the Debt they control the EU. The same way the Banks enslaved the Irish nation by help pushing the house prices up, handing out loans left, right & centre. If you control the debt you have the power. Ireland was far better off before the boom years. We had nothing. Now we are well in the minus. We have the Brits who bailed us out, the IMF, Germany and who ever the Government could sell us down the river. So much for our ancestors fighting for our freedom. We just gave it away through fancy holidays, flashy cars, big houses and all at the highest price. It’s not that we shouldn’t have these things, but if you can’t afford it don’t sell your sole for it. Again controlling the debt is controlling the power!!

Nikolas:

” The majority of industry leaders have spoken out in favour nod not ratifying the ESM treaty”

-

What’s your source for this claim?

Deeply unpopular? Her party is about 10% ahead of the SDP in the last poll I saw a few weeks ago and she has a 66% approval rating, making her the most popular politician in Germany. Hannelore Kraft is seen as the only politician capable of beating Merkel, but even so Kraft has indicated she’s happy to stay at state level for the time being.

And re State elections, they tend to be more about State issues than national ones.

Conor,

In that case, maybe they will be happy to pay the €30 bn promissory note to their own banks in Germany? Maybe we should consider offering them this option they seem to want. Germans are weird people with a sense of superiority to all other European countries. They got all their infrastructure rebuilt & paid for by the U.S. After WW2, the U.S spent $2 trillion on rebuilding Germany.

At this stage I’m beginning to wonder if further integration really would be a bad move for Ireland. I mean, we’ve proved that no matter who we elect to govern us, none of them are even close to being competent! Maybe it’s time to acknowledge that we’re just not up to self determination! By handing over power to others, we just might get rid of the self serving corrupt bastards who have been bleeding this country dry for decades!

They may be self serving corrupt bastards but at least we get a chance to change them every few years. And in theory they will do some good in some areas every now and then. Giving more power to unelected bureaucrats in the failing European experiment is madness.
Irish first and European second, not in reverse.

rodrigo detriano,

Ireland didn’t have a fiscal problem until FF decided to bail out our banks. There are alternatives like Sinn Fein, the Socialists or Independents. Yet the people will still vote FF/FG like they are brain dead. Enough said.

No, it’s not. That would be disastrous for Ireland in the short-term, bringing levels of poverty multiple worse than the current austerity, and should only be the very last resort. The time to opt out of the Euro would have been before asking and accepting the bail-out agreement, that time is passed.

No it wouldn’t, Nikolas. We can default on the promissory note and start over like Iceland.

@ Nikolas you epitomise what I despise in your comment. “it would be disasterous for Ireland in the short term” Yes it would, but in the medium to long term it would be hugely beneficial for us. We need to lose this “we cant do this on our own” attitude that some people and successive Irish governments are intent on drilling into the Irish mindset.

Our ancestors died because people die. Empty rhetoric to say they died / died die for the EU/EZ/familial independence etc..

Ok let me rephrase. Did our ancestors who died trying to secure a free from serfdom nation die so we could hand it all over to our new landlords , the banks ???

PS … Dont try out smart me . Either answer the question or touch on .

The Irish people of past were heroes. The current generation are spineless cowards.

Our ancestors chose their battles and fought the battles they chose. What happens today is nothing to do with our ancestors, it is only to do with us. It’s disingenuous to compare the real serfdom of the 18th and 19th centuries in Ireland with the metaphorical serfdom you imply now. It’s not the same thing. Being a nation does NOT automatically imply wealth for all members of that nation. Entitlement has been a very misused concept in the last 10 years of Ireland. It’s something we need to disabuse ourselves of.

Nikolas , your claim that our ancestors and whats happening today not being linked is by far and away the best fiction I’ve read in years. Our current banking crisis is the direct result of practises brought into legality at the exact time our and I mean that …. OUR ancestors were fighting to free this country from Monarch Rule. Four international bodies were set up after WWII , 2 of which are raping this country right now. This is supposed to be a free country. A sovereign state. People like you with your RTE standard arguments are why this country keeps voting yes to these treasonous treaties. If your not Irish mate , learn our history before you waffle. If you are Irish , cop the hell on.

Still “truthful” that is some load nonsensical rhetoric, in fact its jingoistic BS based on romantic idea of “old Ireland” . just because you up put pictures of shamrock or harps and doesn’t make you more Irish than the rest of us, I really do question your version of freedom and independence , what will it mean in the context the unstoppable train that is Globalisation , now im no fan of a globalised economy but im a realist not a romantic , we live in a very different socio-economic reality than we did a 100 years ago .How will our small open , “free” economy compete against the might of China , US , Russia , India , US outside of strong Europe , now i agree Europe has to change , it has to become more democratic but you have to be in it to change it , what we need is the leader of the small counties to work together and force Europe to look at the values that brought it in to being , reinvigorate the institution that are being side-lined by individuals .. but please leave the old bluster out of it , its exactly the type of nationalist fervour used by extremes across Europe to breed mistrust and create hatred .history repeating istself

Most of my ancestors died because they were ill.

Put it this way; is it not ridiculous to say that Michael Collins ( as an arbitrary example ) would be in favour of a nuclear-power free Ireland, or would be in favour of same-sex marriage, unrestricted Internet access, or a unified European currency? It is ridiculous of course, because these were not relevant issues or priorities in the time that he lived. You’re involving yourself in propaganda, not reasoned debate, when argue current issues by putting words in the mouths of people long dead. We don’t know what our ancestors would think of these issue, it’s pure speculation.

Don’t you see what they are trying to achieve in the EU today?? The same ideals modelled off the USA!! One Federal Government! In Ireland’s case it’s not so bad, because it’ll control every useless Government Ireland has ever had. Forget about the past. Be very concerned about the future

SW will be slashed no matter. EU said so. Further integration into a federalised EZ will mean much worse!

Eh…are we not in a worse state now that we have the euro. We are borrowing every day to keep the state running. Could going back to the punt really be much worse. The world economy is in a terrible mess. At least we cld control our own fate without interference from europe such as devaluing our currency and setting interest rates?

I for one am not anti-German, I just think democracy should be as local as possible and as accountable as possible.

Nikolas I would have though a referendum would be required in Germany if further integration of Euro zone countries is on the cards. Regardless as to who is pushing it be they euro skeptics or eurofans. Would not the German constitution not require a referendum before further integration could happen or not depending on the referendum result….

@ Kerry – as far as I know, and I’m no expert, the German constitution has not needed to be amended as as was in order to sign up to EU treaties. The Irish constitution is the European exception rather than the rule, most countries don’t need constitutional changes and so a referendum. Even in this case, it’s debatable that Germany “needs” a referendum. It may be more a matter that some people “want” referendum and they’ll get it as a sweetener to keep Merkel and her allies in power.

@Petr – I take it then that you are fundamentally opposed to any type of European federalisation? It’s a valid opinion. I’d worry however that the refusal to play a part in a federalised Europe would leave us in a worst position than if we were to take part. There’s no shiny positive solution here, anyone who claims so is lying or is misinformed. It’s a choice of the lesser of the two evils presented, and both sides have advantages and disadvantages.

@Nikolas – Fair points. Yes, I guess I am entirely opposed to the kind of federalism now on the table, although not the idea of federalism itself. The Europhiles want to create a technocracy in which the plebs just get on with their lives and don’t interfere with ‘technical’ decisions. I want no part in it. I agree there’s no magic alternative and the idea of isolationism doesn’t sit well with me, though it’s preferable to the post-democratic EU.

Thanks Brenda!

In fairness Kevin I doubt SF and the left will be devoting weeks of energy on the results of a possible German referendum. Ditto for the right.