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Dublin: 15 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Leaked Brussels report seeks Dole cuts to long-term unemployed

The European Commission says it’s disappointed that a draft document – raising the heat on Dublin – has been leaked.

Updated, 14:21

THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION has said it “regrets” the fact that a draft edition of its next report on Ireland’s bailout progress – which reportedly calls for a clampdown on the issue of medical cards, and on dole payments for the long-term unemployed – has been leaked.

A draft version of the Commission’s seventh formal quarterly update on Ireland’s progress under its EU-IMF bailout was circulated to TDs yesterday, with details appearing in many of today’s newspapers.

A final version of the report was not likely to be officially published for about two weeks.

The document – which has now been published by TheStory.ie – references the fact that social welfare payments for the unemployed do not reflect the length of time for which that person has been out of work.

More needs to be done to alleviate or eliminate work disincentives andunemployment traps caused by some features of Ireland’s benefits system (e.g., the broadly flatand open-ended unemployment benefits that do not diminish with the duration of theunemployment spell) and the recent move to de-couple housing support from unemployment statusshould be further advanced.

Ireland’s unemployment is a regular theme in the report, which says “more remains to be done” to lower the unemployment rate, and that the “scale of the challenge of matching existing jobseekers to employment is considerable”.

Medical card clampdown?

It also claims that Irish authorities are to consider reforming the rules around eligibility for medical cards – having noted that all unemployed people are currently entitled to one.

This may indicate that preparations are already underway for a possible Budget move to split the automatic link between unemployment and access to free GP care.

The health sector is identified as being a particularly problematic one in terms of reining in government spending – with the report noting that while Budget 2012 set a target of €543 million in spending cuts, only 22 per cent of those savings had been delivered.

The report also says the inability of banks to get back to profitability is “a source of concern” – identifying tracker mortgages, which are not very profitable to banks, as being “a major drag” on the banks’ ability to turn a profit.

Ahead of the document being published online, the European Commission said it had seen the reports – and insisted the final version of the report, which followed the latest Troika inspection in July, “has not yet been approved”.

“We will therefore make no comment on the contents as reported by the press,” a spokesman for economics commissioner Olli Rehn said. ”The Commission regrets such leaks from whatever source.”

The spokesman said, however, that the Commission had “commended the good progress” that Ireland had made in meeting its bailout targets so far, and that this had been reflected in the falling interest rates demanded by markets for Irish government borrowing.

Read: Jobseekers have benefits cut for not accepting work or training offers

More: Government called on to clarify Budget plans for income tax, social welfare

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Comments (177 Comments)

  • Dave 29/08/12 #

    Time to “leak” the ECB threat letter then!

    • They are saving that for the re-run of the, Giving Oireachtas more powers to investigate referendum. They lost last year, they’ll tell us we can see it if we pass it this time!

  • Someone might suggest to the troika that if they want the “problem” of unemployment to be addressed there needs to some stimulus directed at Ireland’s domestic economy and that needs money. All that money that the ECB insisted be paid over to unsecured bond holders could have been used for that. But I guess that would have been to radical for the un-elected functionaries in grey suits.

    • Spot on Kerry. Theres 1.6 Billion more being paid out between now and October 1st. You could take 35,000 long term unemployed people off of the dole for the lifetime of this government instead of handing it to rich folk. Unelected bureaucrats should have NO input in our welfare structure considering we’re in this mess as a result of being forced to clear up other peoples mistakes who are on the golf course as we speak.

    • Well said Tootrue. And its the bankers and developers are on the golf course laughing at how they got away scott free while the lowest paid and the poor in society are punished daily by getting their basic welfare cut and services. This is morally wrong and criminally wrong.

    • What and they have no problem with inept, self serving, politicians and senior civil servants get paid kings ransoms to sign extortionate, slavery inducing Troica loan offers????

    • rise up, revolt, rebel,protest, strike – anything but moreonline moaning.

    • I’ve a pain in me hole with Ollie Rein. Feck him.

    • Eamonn some us also protest etc and moan online. I just distributed 200 leaflets about the household charge and for people to ignore the threats to pay so it is possible to do both.

    • so whens the next big protest

    • There will AWAYS be a dole payment system, so it needs to be improved.

      There were individuals on the dole throughout the celtic tiger where there was no excuse to be on the dole.

      So a stimulus package wont solve that problem.

    • I think us normal, everyday, run of the mill folk need a leader who will be the voice of the “People” Too long have the “Ruling Class” taken advantage of us. We are worth a lot more to them than they are to us! They have to be put in their place! They are suppose to work in our best interests but it seems like they are screwing us from behind and our opinion means diddely squat. We need change and independence from Europe. We have to secure our childrens future because at the moment their future has been sold to the banks! So who is going to step up? Will it be you? Eamonn

    • Chris, I came across a banker who does not play golf ! Whatever about the moral aspect, there is nothing criminal in the way you suggest it. I suspect the SF influence here. Golf if not the ream of the “wealthy” anymore. Read the sports pages. Take a toke. Ask your GP if you need anti panic tablets. Get a life.

    • Rory ~ “I came across a banker who does not play golf!”

      I hope you wiped it off and apologized!

      ….I’ll get my coat….

    • @Rory I’d say if i said they just found a new planet with life on it you’d say it was a SF influence. You are diverting from the issue or do you view everything you disagree with a an SF issue.

    • Well Rory if you are one of the stuck up wannabees trotting after bankers on golf courses then I strongly suggest that you get a life. gowl

    • Kim 29/08/12 #

      …..and what do they mean by ” long term unemployed” 2 years, 5 years, 10 years…. never worked at all… Makes my blood boil…. Mark my words it’ll be all the wrong people being cut off and left to fight for everything….. makes me sick.

    • His disappointed it leaked that says it all ..they want to keep us in the dark

  • First we get splashy, but misleading, articles about public servants all pocketing €900 a week, now it’s the turn of the unemployed and those in receipt of social welfare to come in for a bashing!

    Ever get the feeling that something important is being overlooked while these “divide and conquer” types of releases get the headlines?

  • O’ look – another leak from abroad about Irish affairs.
    This is getting as common as Christmas.

  • How did we get here. How did the banks being bailed out for billions that was caused by reckless lending and gambling bond holders problem become the problem of the “long term unemployed” It simply amazes me how they are diverting from the main source of the whole issues from day one. It wasn’t the unemployed who bankrupt the country. It was the IMF’s insistence as part of their bailout not to burn the holders so the money was to be taken from the irish economy by cutting services and taking it out of circulation. If they burned the bondholders and let them take the hit (as they gambled) then we wouldn’t be in this mess. All these so called leaks are clever diversions away from the real issue. Rich peoples excessive wealth in bank bonds protected by taking the food out of childrens mouths and the poor.

    • Chris. It was the ECB who insisted that no bond holders be burned not the IMF.

    • Chris the IMF wanted us to burn the bondholders but our “European partners”insisted we pay all bondholders,we still haven’t been told either by Europe or our own inept idiots as to why.

    • oh I stand corrected Kerry sorry you are dead right. I get so annoyed writing about this stuff all these stupid abbreviations get mixed up in my head. Thanks

    • I hear you Norman. Sad isn’t it. We are lead by an embarrassing bunch of BAD teachers.

    • @ Norman, the reason for this was to protect European financial institutions who recklessly lent money sad invested in unsecured bonds. right now such institutions are borrowing money on international markets at low rates, which is bring lent to Ireland through the bailout (ECB) (at a higher rate : immediate profit) in order for Ireland to pay the unsecured bonds . so certain European financial institutions sure making money from the situation we are in, why would the ECB encourage us to burn bondholders????

    • IMF, ECB. Two sides of the same coin. Good cop, bad cop is what they play.

    • @Janice thanks but knew this,what i meant was the silence from Officaldom on these matters and our so called leaders is deafening.

  • My god = it’s amazing this f***ing troika haven’t touched upon the subject of TD’s wages and expenses yet as a continuing drain on money preferring to direct their crap at the ones who played no part in this politically engineered recession…then again, FG are merely working for the ECB and excessive wages is the norm for this banking cartel.

    • Dermot you jus hit the nail on the head about goverment wages and the perks and allowances etc etc

    • They will never punish their own kind. TD’s wages are untouchable. NO. Its the usual targets the unemployed and middle earners and the poor who will take all the body blows. The td’s will sit in the privileged seats and watch as the rest of us go down.

    • The ruling classes are being well paid for their collaboration.

    • my local FG TD claimed the most in expenses last year, to the sum of 52k, along with his wages, his total anual income is equivalent to that of 15 one parent families with one child dependent on welfare, that is 30 mouths to feed, thats without his post master income he gets, the tax payer pays the same for one td as they do 15 families and it’s the lone parents on welfare who get all the stick, seriously? if the government think minimum wage is perfectly sufficient then that is exactly what they should be earning!!!!!!

  • What about reforming the Political system, with all the Career politicians sponging their teachers and civil servants pay/pensions along with the TD/Senator/Councillor pay and pensions! Lets start with the people, leading by example as usual!

    • I’d make it a maximum 4 year term at a time for any politician. Then they can use those 4 years to do good for the country rather than using 30 years to do good for themselves.

  • The only way to reduce the social welfare budget is to get people into PAID employment if there are no jobs then there will be a high social welfare budget.. simply reducing the amount paid simply punishes the unemployed for a situation which in many case they can not avoid and would do almost anything to get out of.

    But if the ecb etc. want to pull families apart and cause unnecessary harm and heartache to people etc. then please do go ahead with this idea.

    • Hard to get people into paid employment when employers are taking the piss out of (R)jobsbridge and pathways to slavery!! Mockery of it all

    • Our own government is doing precisely what you suggest the ECB is doing in your second paragraph.If i didn’t know better, i think they seem to be doing it with unbridled glee.

    • There might be very serious trouble if certain aspects of this goes ahead.
      Every FG and Labour TD will lose the vote in one swoop, of the entire population of unemployed in Ireland and their husbands/wives/partners to boot!

      That’s a HELL OF A LOT of votes to lose!

      Don’t say ye weren’t warned government!

    • Popcorn 29/08/12 #

      @Ryan’O. You are so right. Private sector employers are under severe pressure but when they are recruiting they are just taking the piss big time.

    • @popcorn nothing new there, I remember in the early 80′s Bus Stop newsagents looking minimum leaving and preferably a degree to work behind the counter ,how long before were back there?

    • Ryan'O 29/08/12 #

      I’d say the next budget should do it jeff!

  • Daisy Chainsaw: just what I was thinking! The middle class and poorer people are being set against each other to fight over a diminishing portion of the economic cake while the super rich are untouched and are actually getting richer.

  • And not a pair of balls between any of our leaders to stand against this.

    The men that died for this country must be spinning in their graves.

    • The men that killed for this country – and what about the people they killed?

    • War of independence and civil war.Sadly people die in war.

    • Dave 29/08/12 #

      What about the people the British killed Patrick? Or was that glorious and proper and right like they always like to claim for their savagery? (Dont dare trt fight back tho- or your a bloody terrorist!)

    • What of them Patrick. War is rough business, especially when you aid forces that are attacking your community.

    • As the wit Brendan Behan said. A man with a big bomb is a politician, while the man with a small bomb is a terrorist.

    • The English have penalised this country for the last 700 years and now we are only getting out from their claws. The British establishment have cause wars wherever they set foot. American civil war, Israeli Palestinian war (when the brits pulled out and Indian Pakistan conflict to name a few not to mention Lloyd Georges treachery in promising ireland Independance if they fought for the british in ww1. They did sign up and died for england and then he reneged on his promise and caused the civil war in ireland so anyone English cannot talk about wars they caused.

    • What about them Patrick? They were invaders and traitors.

    • @patrick only somebody with a british flag as their profile picture would run down the freedom fighters and in turn support the mass murder commited by the Britich crown

    • Enough with the Nationalistic bull. Get off your pride horses and move on!
      700 years of rule my eye, cop on, get over yourselves and move on!

    • You are right there Michael you are right.

    • @Chris – Not gonna bother with the political / nationalist debate on this. But you are wrong on why so many Irish men joined to fight in the great war. It had nothing to do with nationalism or anything, it was simply the fact it was a well paying job with decent benefits. If you lived. If you died, your family got a pension as a result. No other job really offered that at that time.

    • Michael that to the thousands who dies and were terrorised over 700 years. Your total ignorance and lack of respect does them no honour. To remember the dead is our duty lest we repeat the mistakes of the past. You have a typical selfish modern day attitude to those who sacrificed their lives for freedom for THIS country.

    • KIng Olaf is it not a fact that the prime minister of the day in England at the time of ww1 did not promise to give the irish their freedom in return for fighting for the crown in the war????????????? Are you now going to make a liar of the dead.

    • @Chris try reading some history books before you comment ,Ireland got it’s freedom after the first world war the agreement was broken by a very,very small number of Irishmen trying to start a civil war in 1916 .Last time I checked England didn’t start WW1,and fought along side France,Russia,Italy,Australia,Canada,the USA and a load more. At the end of WW1 the Brits ended up with responsibility for the Ottoman empire and gave all those countries independence for the first time in 2000yrs ,apart from Palestine , which they were not allowed to because of the war debt owed to Zionist controlled banks.As for US independence that was a bunch of British guys fighting the British crown based on a British idea that all men are equal! and that same British idea was the basis of the Irish constitution .
      I guess you want to get rid of your laws.Political system,Police,Trains,newspapers and Universities as the were British once as well.We Australians and most modern Irish tend to grab the good and run with it ,you should try it mate.

    • @Patrick you mean the invaders such as the Black and Tans that were sent here or go to prison in their own country

    • The men who died for our country would also be spinning in their graves because so many of their decendants lack the courage to do what they did…..put up a fight for their country.

    • Jeff I think it’s you who needs to crack open the history books pal

      That’s the biggest load of revisionist twaddle I’ve read in awhile! the Brits had nothing to do with starting WWI?! LOL

      and how did “Ireland get its freedom” after the 1st World War? If you’re referring to the Home Rule Bill being put on hold, then you must admit that it was put on hold in 1914, so how exactly was it “got” in 1918? can you predict the future? would you have been able to predict what would happen in 1914 as the war dragged on year after year?

      your post is ahistorical nonsense and full of assumptions

    • WW1 1914-1918 and the British got into it because of a stupid pact to protect France or do you blame them for shooting Archduke Ferdinand ?

    • It was a war between Great Powers/Empires and fundamentally over power/resources.

      Nothing to do with us. And this is a lie:

      “Ireland got it’s freedom after the first world war the agreement was broken by a very,very small number of Irishmen trying to start a civil war in 1916 ”

      You should consult the history books yourself. There is too much revisionism around these days.

    • @Jeff I have no problem with England Buddy I even welcomed the queen and you should get your facts right. As for not commenting until I have every word researched, why should i when I know a clear fact. Its your kind who would like us all to shut up and listen to wise people like you is that is. I have no intention of not commenting here and spending every second researching general knowledge to suit you.

    • 2 things, the Irish MP’s agreed to postpone any bill until after the war as it was advantageous and thousands of Irishmen were fighting in France ,who had volunteered and would not return until wars end. Second the 1916 uprising was used by Unionists ,who rightly said elements within the IRA could not be trusted to hold to any agreement .There by giving them an excuse to stay away from any future negotiations .

    • @Chris there was no civil war in India ,It was partitioned at the request of the Indian’s and the violence was religious Muslim v Hindu ,so how were the British (and Irish) to blame for that? They may have done some bad things in India but they took it from a bunch of despotic princes and left it the largest democracy in the world , I would say that was the greater good.

    • @chris you blame the British for The Irish civil war how? they prevented one,If they had forced Ulster under Dublin rule as De Valera wanted ,the heavily armed combat battalions in Ulster would have wiped out any forces Dublin could have mustered .The Irish civil war was down to Éamon de Valera.

    • an apologist for Imperialist massacre in India too!

      Jeff please stop spouting nonsense. Your warped view of history is disturbing.

    • Micheal 29/08/12 #

      Can we return to the original topic please? Either that or hush up!

    • JTHM 29/08/12 #

      The troubling thing about the men who died for our country is that they’re dead, and so don’t and can’t give a flying f**k about the current state of the country. Stop wasting you breath on the dead and concentrate on the living. They may not be such mythic heroes, but mythic heroes are not real, living people, they’re propaganda devices. Stop posturing and do something for the people who and here and need help now ffs.

  • The class war is on. Neofuedalism is the agenda. Same in the US where the middle class is being destroyed. It will be time soon for the people to get organized and push the pendulum back towards the middle.

    • You are right Paul. And before people knee jerk an anti class, conspiratorially derogative comment, just look at the facts. Meddle income earners are being attacked. The unemployed are being attacked. The poor and vulnerable are being attacked. Neofeudalism Indeed. I don’t doubt it for a second. Anyone who has eyes and ears can see and hear what is going in. I honestly believe this will create an unexpected backlash. The government like to set us against each others throats. Like throwing a steak to a bunch of hungry dogs. They tear each other apart to get it but in actual fact it is the person throwing the meat who should be attacked for an unfair system. I have often come on here and got all hot a bothered if someone criticised the unemployed or the poor and I then would counter by attacking teachers or civil servants or whoever I wanted to Blame. But blaming ourselves is just crazy. The workers should unite and the unemployed should support them and likewise because You can a worker one day Like me and on the dole the next. Go from self righteous attitude Like I work I’m doing things right and deserve a living to judging harshly those with no job. Now the shoe is on the other foot and I am begging welfare for my rights after paying stamps Prsi for the last 30 years. In fact i was just informed my claim was disallowed and it was for a benefit. So all my years paying PRSI were for nothing. I will get nothing for it. So now i know that playing by the rules is a mugs game. You think ticking all the boxes will get you fair play, it won’t. The minute you approach a welfare office its the same as if you NEVER worked or contributed. In fact I am worse off bacause I am not entitled to any allowances at all as i paid stamps PRSI its all benefits and one by one i am being refused them. So it looks like I will be on the streets soon and the only thing increasing in my life is my medication for increasing psychosis for the situation I am gradually sinking into daily.

  • The Troika couldn’t care less about the ‘leaked’ document. They are the boss, Enda and his merry bunch of men are only the caretakers who are told when to take the rubbish out, turn off the electricity for essential maintenance and cut the grass. Take Enda’s strings away and he will slump to the floor! Roll on next general election!

  • Governments (including the European Parliament), the IMF and the ECB are a rich man’s club intent on keeping the wealthy wealthy (themselves included). The rest of us can go to hell in a handbasket as far as they’re concerned, and the devil take the hindmost!

  • The time for nailing down long term unemployed was when there was pretty much a job for everyone. It should have been dealt with then, no point doing it now and hitting everyone who has been struggling the last 4 or 5 years.

  • Getting sick to death of ‘leaks’ coming from Brussels et al. Tactics no doubt designed to whip up fear ahead of the next budget. As if the vast majority of the unemployed weren’t worried enough.

  • Ireland today, is akin to france in the 17th Century…The elites are living it up while the working classes are paying a heavy price for their greed. We all know how the story ended.

  • Problem is sometimes governments avoid the hard decisions needed to keep an economy on track. When FF should have been putting the brakes on the housing bubble for the good of the future, Charlie was cutting tax and espousing his “when I have it I spend it” mantra, and the people loved it and reelected them.

  • Its easy for people who are working in good jobs to condem the unemployed who get 188 a week. Wait till it happens to you when you loose your job.

  • I agree with the troika. Some people get too much money on the dole. Some people do not get enough. It should be based on how much tax you contributed in your previous job and gradually diminish over time.

    • And for those struggling to survive – will the bills, taxes and charges diminish over time too?

    • Stephen its not that simple. I know you are trying to be fair but you just cannot slowly take away assistance from people who have no job. The streets will go back to penal times with starving children if that happens.

    • and whoever red thumbed my comment about fairness has to be a depraved person because would you rather see people starve on the street. By your red thumb I take it you would.

    • mcbab 29/08/12 #

      There speaks the voice of reason. Well done stephen.

    • I presume you would still advocate a basic rate though for both the long term unemployed and the young unemployed who wouldn’t have had a chance to build up their pot through paying tax?

    • Can’t anyone else see that it doesn’t matter anymore! The country is completely banjaxed. Anarchy is imminent! Unless you’re in the top 20% of wage earners, then you’re barely surviving. The mortgage tax and cutting dole payments will most definitely be the final straw for the other 80%. This cutting dole is a ploy designed to make working people feel even more grateful for being employed. Just wait until the mortgage tax starts being deducted from people’s wages. That’s when the country will completely fall apart!

    • Why the hell don’t they turn all the NAMA properties into social housing ? gets vast amounts off housing benefit and gets rental income back simples! It would also get thousands of construction jobs back and cut dole numbers .This is a great country full of people who want to work you just have to have politicians who are brave enough to stand up for them ,sadly we don’t .

    • @Jeff It does seem like a common sense idea but one of the problems with a lot of the NAMA housing is that there’s absolutely nothing in the way of physical or social infrastructure around it i.e. nowhere to work, no public transport, no shops, no schools, no healthcare, no policing, etc. If you start pushing people into those kind of environments then you’re just going to create ghettos and social problems.

    • @James your right but those services aren’t there because their not needed because nobody living there? The job of the useless political class is to put together a total package that would include those services ,and create more jobs!

  • Love this logic, people don’t have enough money to spend in the economy, which is leading to weak banks and slow flow of capital. How about we take money out of the economy (lower dole) and raise the cost of living, lowering spending power of the consumer (no guaranteed medical card) for a large swathe of the country.

    Really, what planet do these people live on? There’s not enough capital flow or spending in the economy so lets take more money out of the economy and raise the cost of living?!

    • “lets take more money out of the economy”

      Nonsense phrase.

    • If you take money from those on welfare, less is spent so the economy slows down further.

    • Yea less is spent in bookies and pubs…

      Vintners Federation must be quaking in their boots.

    • We all know plenty of people who never turned their hand at anything, left school at 16, signed on and laughed at the rest of us heading off to work each morning…they couldn’t understand why I didn’t go out drinking every weekend because I had to work the next day or had rent and bills to pay or failed to grasp the irony of me going to work everyday so these people can lie in bed all day Monday complaining of a hangover.
      Now the irony is these public servants and TD’s are deciding to cut my entitlements after I spent nearly 2 decades paying into their massive salaries, working hard each and everyday so they could sit behind a desk safe and secure that they have a job for life with a massive pension to follow.

      Gavin – if you can know of some system where the likes of those mentioned above are separated from those who through no fault of their own find themselves on the dole….. people who made a serious contribution to the running of this state then by all means contact the troika..otherwise they will make the sweeping generalisation like yourself that dole recipients are drunken, gambling ne’er do wells who don’t deserve any help.

    • @Gavin are you saying everybody on the dole is in the bookies or the pub?? cop-on ya fool im sick of these comments by people who claim everybody on the dole is better off and aren`t looking for work and are sponging

    • @ Tus Nua….yea well i’m sick of paying for spongers and there are up to 100,000 of them out there and they are costing €18,.8 MILLION a week with money that we have to borrow.

      I’m also sick of the bleeding heart brigade sticking up for them.

    • Must say Gavin you compassion for the unemployed is commendable. Why don’t you live in Germany and complete the assault with like minded people.

    • gavin one day you will be glad of a “Bleeding Heart” to stick up for you when you are down and out facing welfare degradation. You seem to be a typical example of the self righteous attitude I mentioned above in a comment. Like you are paying for me. Get that out of your head. You never paid anything for me but yourself. The STATE is taking all our money and giving it to the rich in the banks called bond holders. Is that basic enough for you.

    • Ever think Gavin that the billions upon billions that the ECB forced us to give to bondholders and zombie banks might be better spent here creating job opportunities and actual jobs or indeed giving those on the dole… (those who earned assistance)……their proper entitlements…don’t start suggesting the ECB are the good guys here to rectify all our ills, they’re not…… they are sworn enemies of this state and everyone who lives in it.

    • Where do you guys think the dole money comes from?
      It comes directly from the pockets of taxpayers = “money taken out of the economy”.

      Keeping dole payments high increases the cost of living for everybody.

      And you mentioned logic. Oh dear.

    • @censored. Do you know the difference between the Dole ie assistance and Benefits ie payed through PRSI. That is what I was talking about having worked for the last 30 years. Paid contributions. You the tax payer as you put it didn’t pay that I did out of my own wages. Big difference between the two.

  • Brilliant plan. Because people who have lost their jobs obviously haven’t been punished enough, we should punish them some more if they can’t find another job. Just don’t ask where there supposed to get another job, that would be inconvenient.

  • I pay €132 every month for my medication for a life long illness. When I was less well off, I sometimes had to skip it.. I would love a medical card, but I know there are others who need it more than me. It kills me to see the usual cute hoor famers and the likes with their trickery accounting getting free drugs as well as everything else! Such an unequal society!

    • Yes and I see where farmers are fighting now not to have land included in a means test for college grants???????? I just cannot believe it. Farmers children getting college grants. They can well afford college fees. See that was ireland all along giving these people grants who could well afford to pay. Then the same people told us how they are so worth it after struggling through college to educate themselves and now they are entitled to this 50 to 60 grand a year in civil service. They had it all sewn up.

    • @Chris, I don’t whereabouts you’re living but my parents live in county Roscommon and when I visit I get to see how some farmers there are living. Sure, there are some with relatively new SUVs and machinery but there are an awful lot who are at subsistence level; surviving from one sale of animals to the next. You can see it with the lack of feed for animals, the broken machinery, etc. There’s not much income from land rental available anymore so it’s hard to see what liquid value there is in a lot of the land. Maybe there needs to be a cut-off point where < x acres is considered to have zero value for the purpose of college grants? Maybe also ask if you don't provide an education for their kids what you do with them – are they likely to continue farming? If they don't want to then what are the alternative opportunities for them with no education.

    • lads we need to pull together remember its us v them they are trying to divide the people this was no leak so as to avoid riots in the streets

    • Point taken James. I agree not all farmers are well off but I do believe there are more well off then subsisting though.

    • Dermot you hit the nail on the head. This is just a massive diversion tactic but i truly believe people are seeing through it all finally.

  • Let them keep cutting!!!! Eventually people will do whatever it is they have to do to survive. The basic fabric of our society is being sacrificed in the name of money. The human aspect has long since gone. There will come a time when this goes over the edge and those who have better look out cos those who have nothing will be coming to GET SOME!!! Does anyone in their right mind actually think that human beings when hungry and without shelter are going to just disappear into the night. I think not!!!! I would just like to add that the majority of citizens on the dole have spent years of their lives paying taxes and pay related SOCIAL INSURANCE.

    • Thank you Karl so much. That is the point I was trying to make to a hater of all people unemployed above. I was just refused a claim for a benefit based on PRSI. Not because I hadn’t the contributions but because I robot so called Deciding officer who just completely ignored reports from my GP and a Consultant and another Medical Professional. Turned it down flat afet 30 years plus paying PRSI. Meanwhile those living on my block on dole for years have bigger houses newer cars holidays and every modern convenience while this fool here was out working. So in effect the system is telling me I shot myself in the foot by working and now I will get nothing. This system is rotten to the core.

  • Ah shur for jaysus sake! Them EU lads are a feckin heedless shower, leaving refill pads of notes lying around and dropping sticky notes with budget details on them! Shur no wonder there’s leakages all over the place!

  • Meanwhile, we continue to offer low taxes on the rich and wealthy corporations.

  • Take a drive around some of those drab, dangerous estates in Ireland and try to understand why someone born into this might feel like giving up trying before you judge people as spongers. Their address and accent alone can rule them out of a good job not to mention the quality of education in the poorer areas, while well connected college boys walk into the good jobs and take over the reigns of power because of who they know or the fact that they had private schooling and grinds, just trying to see things from another perspective.

  • Where’s the leaked report from the ECB suggesting that top administrative officials and elected representatives take further pay cuts, or are subjected to performance reviews every 6 months to see if they are deserving of their massive wage packets or are on target with their election and promotion promises?

    Oh yeah, I forgot, it steps on less powerful toes to hit yer man struggling to make ends meet on 188 euro a week.

  • Long-term unemployed is those out of work for over a year – not just those commented on here who are on the dole for 40 years (seriously?).

    I have to say that a lot of the comments here just make my blood boil, especially those claiming that families living on social welfare are living a high-life. As someone who was brought up in a family on social welfare (Disability Allowance but it’s the same rates as Unemployment) I know that what we considered luxuries were things like new shoes or a coat as they didn’t get bought very often. Only a few years ago my youngest brother was still in college and my parents were getting a measly €18 per week for a dependent child – how can anyone think that’s enough to keep a teenager, let alone live a life of luxury? I’ve a suspicion that those who make all these claims of social welfare being an easy, luxurious lifestyle have no experience of living that life.

  • Its been said before,I will say it again,the vast amount of monies paid by the dept of social welfare goes back into the economy. Reducing payment will save money ,fair enough.It will also reduce by an almost equal margin the amount that goes into the economy, which will be saved by these cuts.The low hanging fruit is picked and we are now starting to play this ‘Rob Peter to pay Paul’ economics.Welfare cuts will cost jobs in the long run.As commenters before here have stated,some form of limited default is going to have to be performed to provide capital to kickstart the job creation.I feel that the case for withholding payments to unsecured bondholders is stronger than ever.Our problem is that Enda and Co. simply have not got the guts to stand up to the likes of Merkel and her cronies.

    • you say we have tackled low hanging fruit but in same statement you seem to suggest we should not look at something that has to date been untouched by cuts affecting all else, government had green too spineless to tackle several areas of reform needed due to there unpopular nature and instead keep attacking same easy targets, middle class Ireland who are being hammered consistently

  • My advice is – if you can afford to emigrate, do it now. Go to a non EU country and get away from the this hole althogether.

  • There are plenty of social welfare breaks for those of wealth in this country. Every tax break and loop hole made available is a debit entry to the ledger of government. I like to call these the rich mans welfare!!!!! I would like to know how these state sponsored welfare breaks for the rich stack up against dole payments in real money calculation over a year. Just food for thought.

  • To many people sucking the life out of this country the long term unemployed being one. Its a sorry state when you are trying to get started in life & you look across the road at a family that hasn’t worked in 40 years to see they have everything they need from the government.

    • Daniel just as a matter of interest what percentage of the circa 14% of the unemployed in this country do you consider are spongers?

    • Daniel I would have agreed a month ago until I got this story from my brother in law. He is a great maintenance man and he has been unemployed long term not. He spends his day going to the local employment services and he has done so many Fas Community schemes to try keep occupied that he can’t get another one. Recently a friend of his who was starting a new scheme for unemployed in the area told him to go down to the social welfare office and put his name down and he would job him. He went down and was snet to another hatch and the person told him straight out that he could not take up a position on the scheme as it was RANDOM SELECTION ONLY. He was gobsmacked and so was I. Here is a man willing to work and he has worked and she basically tole him he could not put his name down. After that rational they what the hell can people do. He is doing everything to get work and still can’t.

    • Your class warfare tactic has failed throughout the past 40 years. People who lost their jobs through no fault of their own.

    • I Myself have lost my job & it’s the worse feeling in the world. My point is we have a small percentage of people who will happily stay unemployed for as long as possible, my argument isn’t with people who want to work they are the people that should be looked after first. To many people got comfortable on welfare system that didn’t just support them but gave them everything they wanted without ever having to work hard for it, As i said i feel sorry for every family that a mother or father has lost there jobs & are struggling to pay bills , Mortgages etc

    • Fair enough Daniel. I’d agree there are a small percentage that even in the good times made no effort to find employment the important thing though is not to lump everybody who is unemployed under the same heading.

    • yes i would agree that some long term are enjoying it but most are there through no fault of their own and would rather be workin, to make that statement and tarnish them all with the same brush is a typical biast comment and ignorant to the reality of todays society …..typical blueshirt statement

    • The thick of this country love to tar all with the same brush.
      He/she is unemployed – they are spongers and lazy…

      What utter stupidity!

    • “Everything they wanted”? such as? Im sure you have evidence to back this claim yes

    • Daniel Remember by The departments own figures the amount of Scoial Welfare fraud (This includes those not “Seeking Fulltime Employment”) is 0.6%. In anyother area that would be deemed statisicly insignificent but the myth of the sponger is being held up to provide a target other than the eleite who continue to grow ritcher while more of us become Unemployed, Homeless spongers. To be blamed for whatever new Taxs, Levies or Cuts our masters decide they want to impose.

    • why cant these long termers be put to work in community schemes,at least there would be some return to society/govt.this is done in other european countries.before every1 shouts its already here with jobsbridge i dont suggest that route of pure exploitation but merely on a semi/part time basis even until the person can find gainful employment

  • I’m never voting for Oli Rehn again.

  • Kill off the unemployed by starving them while politicians and bankers are getting paid thousands a week. There are very few jobs out there for over 400,000 people. Count yourself lucky if you have a job. There will be more job losses in 2013. This Government and its program of austerity on the poor and low paid is killing the economy, pushing Ireland towards a Depression. Why are the Irish so compliant?

  • The unemployed and user wealthy in this country are far too well looked after. Drop the dole, stick in a new tax rate for those earning €150k+ and give the middle earners a break, for once.

    Jesus, you do everything right in this country and you’re the one who is punished. Study hard, go to college, work hard there, leave and get a good job that pays well and for what? Paying for Deco down the road who messed around in school, left at 16 to work on a site laying bricks for €1.50 a block and now won’t work for anything less?

    Borrow within your means while everyone else splurges on easy credit, then they can’t repay it and you’re paying for their mistakes, again?!

    Success in this country is worthless, all you become is a target for the government to charge for everyone else’s mistakes. Then those people begrudge you for it. Sickening.

    • with rising fuel costs and high energy bill people are struggling on the dole so how can you justify cutting it

    • Ned in fairness i get where you are coming from and i am in the process of being degraded and abused daily as I am now trying to get a benefit after losing a job but most unemployed is not their fault and just because you went to college doesn’t mean the world owes you a living. I have done countless course and i binned the certificates gathering dust because they are obsolete now. You are not the sum of your certs and if you think you are then you are in more trouble than you think. Nobody can say a labourer is less than a pen pusher. This is the kind of division that the government wants to see. They divide and conquer. Don’t be a patsy for them. The real enemy is this government protecting the interests of the very few wealthy and making us you and me, pay for their privilege.

    • the problem is this goverment do not care make the poor pay for the banks and the corruption

    • censored 29/08/12 #

      There is no easy solution here. That said, if we keep cutting incentives to work and penalising those who’ve managed through hard work and good luck to get some small degree of comfort then things are going to get even worse.

      I’m sympathetic to the plight of those who are relying on the dole, but this is a death spiral.

  • This ism aprt of a press release from European Anti Poverty Network Ireland today:

    “We support the Commission call for welfare reform. An efficient and modern social security system requires effective supports for people seeking work and accessible services such as health, childcare and transport, along the lines of the principles agreed at EU level for ‘active inclusion’. We also need to ensure that welfare levels are maintained so as to ensure that poverty does not continue to deepen.

    “In times of recession we especially need to invest in welfare, services and supports to protect the most vulnerable, build a more equal and cohesive society, and support economic recovery.

    “We also need to ensure that people ac cessing work do not lose out. At present, the fact that so many benefits and supports are lost ‘in one go’ as income increases makes it harder for the unemployed to take up work and deepens poverty. Recent decisions, such as the rule changes in Budget 2012 restricting the benefits retained by lone parents, are making this worse.

    “We agree with the Commission on the need for a broader tax base, particularly property taxes. Experience across Europe shows that there is a direct relationship between low overall tax levels and poverty. In particular, loading tax onto VAT and PAYE, as opposed to property tax, creates inequities and poverty traps.

    “These are the challenges for Budget 2013. If we get them wrong, we will see increased poverty and social divisions. If we get them right, we can begin to build a more cohesive and prosperous society”.

  • louise 29/08/12 #

    The bully boys if brussels strike again!!
    We won’t hear the end of this speculation till next Decembers budget, brace yerselfs

  • I agree with about comments our country is in a wreck because we have over seas people calling the shots but I also believe that the long term welfare needs to be addressed and I mean term not the fella/woman who just lost there job it’s total wrong that someone on long term welfare is better off than most working class.

  • let them on their mega bucks wages the one,s in the eu and the imf live on the social welfare and we,ll see just how they get on
    its not a joyride or a lifestyle its WHATS YOU PEOPLE PUT ON US

  • articles like this always divide but reality is that there is a percentage of those on dole who have learned how to manipulate system, they get more from not working than they could ever hope to get by working and as a result have zero interest in finding a job. majority who claim dole need it to get by, but for example those who did not work through Celtic tiger have questions to answer as to why they didn’t work, approx 1500 people had dole cut for not accepting training or work opportunities this year alone, ECB are not wrong to ask questions as to what we are doing to tackle issue of disincentives to finding a job

  • What about the lazy bastards who have never worked and don’t want to. At a time of full employment there were still 80,000 to 100,000 of these wasters.

    Too right chop their dole, how the Troika can continue to fund the best dole in the world is beyond belief.

    • I agree Gavin but how do you separate those that never exploited welfare from those who do.

    • I agree, which is why they should have done this (unemployment benefits should diminish with the duration of theunemployment spell) in 2006, not 2012.

      How do you seperate the lazy bastrads out when there’s no jobs?

    • we need to invest in jobs not penialise those who are there through no fault of their own then we can bring down the numbers and see who the real culprits are

    • anyone who was unemployed 6 years ago when we had full employment and is unemployed now = sponger

      simples

    • We do need to weed out the spongers as they are giving the rest of the unemployed a bad name…why not check who was claiming the last time we had full employment in this country…also people who have been claiming since they left school and are still claiming..its not that hard for the social welfare to check their records…

  • I have no problem with a system that has a safety net for people who work and may lose there job ,but the system is being abused by deadbeats and no hopers who lack the will or desire to actually aim for a better life and just leech off the state. They just swan around getting everything paid for and living the life of riley. Something has to change because its a ticking time bomb.

  • we need a revolution badly the foreign powers are as good as in control all we need now is the tri-colors around ireland to be replaced by the new united states of europe and we will then be truly screwed!

  • Finally the troika are making some sense!! I honestly think its time to stop penalising those who are working. They can’t take much more!

  • why are people getting so worked up over this? It’s only a draft document.

  • JTHM 29/08/12 #

    Meanwhile, back in the realm of the sane and the rational….

    • Usefull that….great comment. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    • JTHM 29/08/12 #

      That’s me told. My whole worldview’s blown. I’ll just get with the system and join the masses of non-left wing left wingers and factless posturing online revolutionaries. Face facts and accept that what you’re doing here is not in any way improving the economic situation one iota, it’s simply about making yourself feel virtuous and an important. It’s ego stroking, nothing more. Engaging in these debates is simply justifying the political of aspirations of those who really shouldn’t be indulged. On the other hand, maybe all of this is just a brave front and I’m dying inside…

  • Ok we know the story – more than €20BN will be spent this year on social welfare.

    Maybe the minister for social protection should introduce a welfare “credit card” as is the case in Australia whereby the idea is to ensure welfare is spent appropriately http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18951205

    We all know there are those who are genuine cases for welfare (elderly/disabled/carers etc) and then there are those who simply choose not to work – long term welfare recipients who turn down employment opportunities in order to keep their welfare benefits.

    I think it is it is time to get tough with those who choose to take advantage of the soft system that we have in place. In the US state of Michigan last year the Governor signed into law a four-year lifetime limit on cash welfare benefits, (with exemptions for those with a disability who can’t work, those who care for a disabled spouse or child and those who are 65 or older).

    Ideas like these are long overdue for Ireland, the Minister of Social Protection should focus just as much on those who are in gainful employment and to protect that sector of society rather than those who detract from it week in, week out because they choose to.

    • I agree to an extent stephen. But a card may not be practical in some areas. But I agree with the principal of it. I think everyone here making comments just wants to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I have always worked until I got an illness recently and I can’t even get the basics after years of paying PRSI. PRSI is supposed to be social Insurance but I need it now and it is denied me. I am now lumped in and classed the same as the person who never worked and will not work. We all know they out there, The amount of allowance they seem to qualify for is unreal. I have never got a fuel allowance in my life and I pay a mortgage. I am barely getting below dole money and they decided to change the rules for supplementary allowance to help with a mortgage so you have to run and beg the bank to help you now before you qualify as from june this year. They are pulling every single assistance that help people. There are people living around me who never worked a day in their lives who get all the allowances and have the best houses they chose from the council. I am not begrudging they need a roof over their heads or income but why is it I am being punished because i worked and no matter what i apply for it is turned down all because of the recession like i was one of those who spent my life sponging from the system. They take nothing you have done into account. Its the most degrading system ever conceived and they speak to you like an animal as if you are dumb.

  • Damocles 29/08/12 #

    Wasn’t there an article yesterday saying there will be dole cuts for job seekers who aren’t seeking jobs, isn’t this the same thing?