I agree….our water tastes so bad that we buy all our drinking water….it works out expensive & awkward carting home water for a family of 5 !! I’ll really begrudge paying water rates

But sure isn’t Dublin sewage piped up to ye as drinking water?

Spot on Mr. Harney….no relation I hope..

hear hear colm well said

Exactly Colm
So true and well said . I gave you a green thumb , but wish I could x 10. We have been supporting 3rd world countries for clean drinking water and here we are being threatened by this shower of ”politicians”. They are starting the fear mongering early . That is the only way they can get people to pay , They are REELING from the shock of the success of the Don’t register ,Don’t pay campaign . Well we have only started . Mass civil disobedience in not paying for this meter lark or in an awful lot of areas dirty water will show them that we have not lost the run of ourselves ,but have found our self respect and our will to stand up and be counted . No way will I pay !

Cheers, I think we’re all willing the help our country outta this mess but not the endless billions being sent down a black hole every other wk bailing out banks etc. When will we see some investment in real job creation?!

And no, i’m no relation to the ex health minister.

You can drink all the rain & brine you want for free.

Desalination..

And p.s, you do drink rain…

Processing water costs money.

We spend €15,000,000,000 more than we make each year.

We need more money. Water charges seem a reasonable approach.

Your original post suggested that, as we’re a wet island, producing drinking water should not incur a cost. My previous post highlighted the difference between drinking water & the water common to wet islands.

Duh. ;)

Continent Simian
paying off the debts of crooked bankers and corrupt politicians costs money . Well not from my limited supply of it ….

Tax on having babies might not be a bad thing!

@begrudgy – I think what happened to the latest government fool on telly last night was that he was caught unprepared for that question (he shouldn’t have been though) and didn’t want to say if you don’t pay you’ll get cut off.

yeah… I wonder who will be determining the affordability?

I agree totally, this crowd have become drunk on power and are now no different than a dictatorship. Live it up Fergus, you will never get elected by the people of Drogheda again.

Good work John!

So the question isn’t so much ‘will my water be cut off’ the question is, are FG/Labour human rights abusers in the eyes of the world. Inda is certainly becoming Thatcher with a todger, isn’t he?

I think Thatcher has more balls than Inda, she wouldn’t let a toad like Sarkozy pat her on the head, the spiteful old witch

You’re saying thatcher didn’t have one ;)

@ Caroline. LOL! Too true. Thatcher would be whacking napoleon-boy with her handbag while indas admiring the new gold star on his report card. Incidentally guys, if a foreign government cut peoples water off here it would be a war crime, so we should not let our own do it acting on instructions from a foreign power.

Anne, you, me and the rest of the country ARE the government money tree.

No threats. Just telling you the facts. You were braying for the facts now you are getting them. You will have a free allowance according to the size if your family. What you use over that for washing car watering garden too much you will pay for. That will be your choice. If you stay within your allowance you only pay the standing charge same as you pay line rental for your phone even if you don’t make a single phone call. It’s all about choices and budgeting.

@McBab, were we not already paying for the line rentals already??? Why do we need to pay it twice?

@ mcbab. Facts? Like you claim we’ll be getting a free allowance. Here’s inda in the dail yesterday: “‘…while water is fundamental for life… The government is in no position to give a free allowance”

mcbab
they are threats . that is all this shower in government are good for ,threatening widows/ widowers,pensioners,disabled people , unemployed , single parents, people in distress,but they even fail there because no matter what the government say the campaign against the household and water tax is a huge success.. ha ha . And it is only the start of it, people have had enough of paying seanie fitz’s fraudulent debts, and lying berties exhorbitant pensions and the farcical allowances to politicians. So as far as I am concerned they can threaten me all they like ,but if they cut off my water they will know that they picked on and bullied the wrong person . :)

If it was worse than Thatcher the minimum wage would still be a euro less, the rich would have gotten a tax cut and Croke park would have been put in the shredder from day one.

25% of our debt is bank debt. Dictators? I’d say people in Syria or Bahrain would die to be in your shoes…

Guys the argument that any new tax or spending cut is there to pay off unsecured debt is starting to become farcical …. The reality is that if god almighty excused us from out banking debt that would reduce out debt to GDP ratio massively and would be of huge assistance … It would be around 70 billion (excl interest) off our debt levels

But the looney left alliance and SF never seem to address the fact that we run a 15 billion euro overdraft per annum that needs to be controlled and while recognising that FF narrowed our tax base down to income, vat and stamp duty when they talk about broadening tax supplies they don’t come up with any despite a wealth tax

This wealth tax does have merits but reports show that the most effective wealth tax is one focusing on property rather than paper as the latter can be shipped out of the country while the former cannot but instead of the Ula and Sf trying to portray that only those with property valued at X amount should pay they just put down the notion altogether … It’s not credible

Then when they talk about stimulus as if it’s the answer to all our solutions is not true as there needs to be stimulus with deficit control as if u had stimulus alone with a 15 billion deficit per annum this country would need Chinese economic growth trends to insure value for money return

As for the rest of our sovereign debt that was obtained from a whole host of people, pension funds, etc and we can’t default on those or else we have to have a budget deficit of 0.00% as we won’t be able to get money from markets or the ESM

Ok Jay, explain to me where the money to pay the €70 billion is coming from?
True we are running a yearly €15 Billion deficit and serious adjustments have to be made but the debt pile we have at present is not sustainable no matter how many cuts we make or new taxes we impose. I have no problem paying a flat 50% tax rate for services on a par with Scandinavian countries, It is immoral for taxpayers to cover bank gambling debts

if u bypass meter your meter will read zero u will be caught straight away presume penalties will be as harsh as doing it to gas r esb.pity people wont stick together and just not pay.they will alao reverse your bypass while your in jail.

I’ve been making such plans for the last few days. I know exactly where it is as well having had dig it up before.

You idiot. You show your true colours now. A thief

Not really Richard. If you adjust the flow resistance you could make it half and half (or any ratio) just as your house radiators are balanced.

“Stealing” something that falls from the sky that has now had an imaginary charge associated with it, is not stealing.

Stealing hundreds of Billions from our economy to pay off unguaranteed bondholders, is stealing.

mcbab
Who is a thief ? Think hard about it mcbab , because there are thieves but look else where . People trying to survive are not thieves.

You will still have to pay if u are now on the public water system as the aim is to have all houses on a standardised system using same metres across the country

Ha Kerry …
I think you wont be thanked for asking awkward questions , I reckon you should not have to pay , but i believe the answer you got from Jay above sounds just enough like spin to be the only answer you will ever get and of course they will not pass up the chance of your €800 neither

Why, what happens in 2014? And please remember to base your response on recent opinion poll trends.

How are recent opinion polls relevant to 2014? If we keep getting squeezed it’ll be more than the left that will eventually snap

There may be a “free” allowance of water. A certain amount you can use without paying.

I would hope you get that, even if you owe for previous excess.

Yes ifyou gp down to the river and collect it yourself.

No micheal there is an enshrined human right to clean drinking water, if they cut you off they are violating this and could end up being in some pile with the court of human rights, their recourse if you don’t pay is up look to the legal system for the money and sanctions but I don’t think they can cut you off.

‘…while water is fundamental for life… The government is in no position to give a free allowance…’ – enda kenny, yesterday, responding to questions from Mary loud McDonald, SF

While I can’t stand him, bono is quite entitled to be doing what he’s doing. His company is registered in another country. Nothing wrong with that. I might not agree with it but it’s legal. He’s only doing what so many others on her want to do : AVOID PAYING BILLS

*here

@ Tom…absolutely correct. Bono and everyone else for that matter is quite entitled to minimise their tax liabilities. As for the typical assinine comments made by Dave Ball and others on these matters…if you feel aggrieved then hire a tax accountant!!

No body wants to avoid paying their bills . They will not pay made up, money making scams to pay off the debts of others . There is a huge difference .

@susie but you don’t mind half the population paying the household tax while you don’t. Why should the half that did pay subsidise the half that didn’t? because that is what’s going to happen. Also, the “don’t want to pay, won’t pay” campaign fell right into Hogan’s trap. You’ll all pay more in the long run.

4 thumbs down for correcting a typo?

Love this site!

Half the population ? but have they? How many of those that registered have actually paid , How many were bullied into paying through gritted teeth because they were put in fear , by the hog ? I do not mind Standing up and putting myself in the line of fire from people like yourself who are brainwashed and are being used to perpetreate the lies and fears put out by this administration …. SO when this charge is abolished you can thank me then :)

@ Susie

Brainwashed!

It’s the bloody law. Regardless of whether anyone agrees with it.

And yes. Over half have (as of a week ago)

It’s people like you who are trying to brainwash others into breaking the law. Our democratically elected people made this law. We must abide by it.

These laws are made at the behest of the Troika, who I didn’t elect, who I couldn’t elect because they weren’t here…..remember

@ Tom Traubert
Yes.You are Brainwashed! It is our DUTY as thinking decent people to oppose this unjust law ,now if I think it is unjust like 1.000,000 other householders in this country do, then I will not pay it . If you were not brainwashed you would be able to think for yourself and see the injustices foisted on us by this government in the name of the troika …. Our democratically elected people lied and lied and lied ,deal breakers the lot of them ,We must oppose it in the name of democracy and sovereignty .

@ Susie

We don’t get to choose what laws we think are unfair or unjust. Do you think it’s fair that half the country is subsidising the other half that so far hasn’t paid?

You can’t pick and choose what suits your argument. Yes, fair enough the economy is in a state and we all know where the blame lies. But there is a 15bn defecit between what we bring in and what we pay out. And that’s not including the bailout debt. Money has to be raised somehow. Most countries pay for their water. Most countries have a property tax. We had it too good for way too long in this country. Our previously democratically elected governments put their faith in a taxation bubble. The currently elected government have to clear up this mess. What would you have them do.

They are democratically elected to do this. This is what the people of ireland bought into when they went to vote. They put their trust in them. Unless there’s an election soon there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Object/oppose etc did work for the septic tank issue (an EU directive) but it didn’t and won’t work for the household charge or water rates. You don’t pay, you get penalised and eventually fined (at will still have to pay the charge)

I therefore respectfully disagree with your assertion that I have been brainwashed. The facts are facts. Laws are laws. No brainwashing has taken place.

Tom Traubert
Excuse me ! ” Object/oppose etc did work for the septic tank issue (an EU directive) but it didn’t and won’t work for the household charge or water rates” And you know this How ? The figures are not conclusive .It is not fair that people were bullied and threatened and refused help from coucils unless they registered,that was wrong and indecent. Oh and I will never pay that €100 charge or fines … And when the time comes and it is abolished , you can thank me then. tom:)

@susie

I won’t be holding my breath. The fact that half the country has paid and the other half are now subject to penalties shows that the government won this battle. Why would they abolish it now? if it was a referendum >50% would have carried the motion. They’ve got this one in the bag. They’ll get slightly more than they estimated.

All the money was going into a pot to be distributed among Local Authorities in most need based on population. Dublin/Major population centres was always going to get the bulk of it anyway. The ‘threat’ of penalising local authorities that didn’t raise enough was a diversionary tactic, probably put out initially by the opposing campaign. The Local Authorities were not responsible for collection. This point was missed repeatedly on many radio stations and the frontline that night. The local authorities could and can not be penalised. When the money is broken up those that are in most need will get the most. Anyone that comes out and says for eg. that Donegal got very little because they was a low take up of the charge will be telling lies. The money they get will reflect the level of public services provided by that Local Authority. Donegal for eg has a very large proportion in rural areas where there are very little public services provided.

If you can’t see this then I’m afraid it is you that seems to have been brainwashed.

You also have yet again failed to answer why you think it is fair that half the country should be paying for the half that can’t/won’t?

But again, I won’t be holding my breath on that either.

Tom T …
We will have to agree to disagree I suppose so .
I voted FG and Labour in the last Gen election . Then I saw that they were making lots of decisions that went against that which they had promised , and I defended them initially their actions, saying that hard times need difficult choices…. Until they closed down the A+E in Roscommon.That was when my eyes were opened and I began to truely see the damage I have done by voting these people into power BUT THEY ARE NOT IN CONTROL….. They take their orders from Europe or more to the point Sarkozy and Merkle. I have been educating my self in the intervening months and I am convinced that Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore are TRAITORS to the Irish people .
I can not imagine nor could I ever have imagined that the leaders of our country would tell us that they will cut our water if we do not pay for the service . Let them try, is all I will say .(I admired Garret Fitzgerald …. He would never have supported such a decision, Michael Collins would never have supported this decision ,nor would many of the other leaders of the FG party or they would be out saying it . They have in effect been told to be quiet )

As for the debacle of the Household charge and who won the battle , because the war is not over, we the people did . I believe that the Campaign against household and water taxes is only in its infancy AND to have achieved such a fantastic success over the governments bullying is more than any of us could have hoped for . Remember that this campaign has been led by the ordinary people in local communities . The tide is turning !
Have a nice day and try and read something other than the lies in your party’s manifesto .
ps ..It was the hog himself who announced that he was going to send council workers around to houses to collect the €100….What a stupid stupid man to make such a threat .
AND the €100 is not and never was going to go to local authorities

@susie

not being sarcastic here at all, but while this has been fun and given cause for thought/debate it does look like we will have to agree to disagree!

Have a nice day. Are you on twitter?

Tom T .
I have a twitter A/c . but don’t use it very much , I just don’t ”get it ”… Face book is my downfall !

…..but they pay for it in Europe ….. mantra is wearing thin !
It is a tactic to put us peasants in our place. Thats all.

That’s actually not true there is already a shortage of drinking water across the country when it comes to reserves and with population increases this is a long term consideration ….Dublin and commuter counties are also facing shortages that’s why they are talkin about flooding some wasteland in Laois for a new reservoir

It makes sense to me … It costs a fortune to provide and provided there’s a free allowance I think the polluter/waster pays it makes sense … For example when we had the bad winter the authorities had to issue warnings about running taps over night and some did and this (as well as burst pipes) put pressure on reserves after the bad frost passed water charges will stop this …

Also I think people need to look at this as a twin track approach … Charges with improvements to the pipe network … the benefit of merging into one authority is that it allows greater coordination and buying power to allow a much better improvements system …. Also will make it easier to find leaks in the system

Also people saying about human rights … Socio-economic rights are a little woolly and while it appears to say u have a right to water in reality that may mean the state shud provide the infrastructure but i can’t see that control according to law such as water charges and consequences would be contrary to human rights convention

Jay the fact that our supplies were/are badly managed should not lead to water charges,it should lead to a more efficient system.

Access to water is a human right. Access to water for free is not. Resolution 64/292 explicitly states that water costs should be no more than 3% of a household’s income.

If a household can afford to pay for water but chooses not to – remember, the actual topic we’re discussing – they can regain access to their water supply by choosing to pay for it.

@paul, quick question for you … Were we not alerady paying for the water up until now through taxes etc? And if the answer is yes, then the obvious follow on question has to be… why are we now being asked to pay an additional premium for water? Is this not double taxation for the same service? Or can we not be honest about it and say straight out, that the Government are using water taxation as another means of getting money to pay back gambling debts? I have no problem seeing all Public and Civil servant wages capped at a max of 100k per year, and publicly funded pensions capped at a max of 60k per year, to avoid paying this new water tax.

@Cal: yes, we’re paying for water through our taxes. The problem with that approach is that it contains no mechanism to encourage water conservation. I pay the same amount of income tax, VAT etc whether I’m frugal with my water supply or otherwise.

The whole “double taxation” argument is one I’ve never understood. If we’re paying for our water at source, we’ll no longer be paying for it through general tax revenue. This means that the portion of your taxes that are currently paying for your (and mine, and everyone else’s) water will be available to reduce the structural deficit which is the gap between taxation and public expenditure.

It’s also fairer that those who use more water should pay more. The only way to make that happen is to meter the supplies.

@Paul, You get my point … The government has not said where they are going to reduce the taxation levels in other areas to compensate for this proposed terrorist charge. If it was a fair tax, then those who can afford to pay more, should pay more, and those who cant afford it, should not have to pay it. 40% of our population is now estimated to be living below the poverty line. And that is before the new water tax, property tax and who knows what else comes in… The average person in Ireland just cant take anymore. All the money is going to fund banks in europe. WE should be investing in job creation to reduce our fiscal deficit, not restricting growth.

I was going to reply to your point – specifically the bizarre idea of reducing taxes, when there’s a chasm in the public finances – but a phrase like “terrorist charge” indicates that you’re not interested in a reasoned discussion. Nice talking with you.

No you are suggesting that, what we are talking about are people who cannot afford to pay in which case disconnection is a human rights issue. Also I’m becoming a little bored listening to an element of the comfortable and sanctimonious who don’t skip meals in order to pay for heat or electricity, nor feed their children, preaching to others from on high.

This has nothing to do with conservation of water not the upgrading of the water system, this is a revenue raising exercise by government being introduced at this time, for no other purpose, than to meet the terms of a financial bailout agreement signed without a public mandate.

Furthermore, with regard to the deliberate non payment of charges, people have a democratic right to protest a government who are clearly not governing on behalf of the citizens and this extends to acts of civil disobedience. All long as these are non violent protests it is a matter of conscience for each individual how they choose to exercise their rights in a democracy, they do not require your blessing Paul Cunnane.

Just buy a bucket!

How much will it cost to sink your well, put a pump and water softener on it build a pump house, power to run the pump and repair or replace the pump when it burns out. Then the well may get polluted and you start over again. Water is not free. Just taken for granted.

Water is essential for life. Sky subscriptions, bin collection and car loans are not..

Only the rich dont have to pay their bills? The rest of your comment made sense but you let yourself down with that jibe.

Food is essential for life. Why should we have to pay for food?

Yes, a voice of reason, well said, to many in here write with their emotions instead of their intellect

Shut up enda and put your head under the wheel .

Very true, what would be the incentive to people to actually pay if others were getting free water at their expense.
Water is essential to life, use it sparingly.

@Seamus Kearney

Absolutely no incentive so don’t. Water conservation and water commodification are not the same, this is about profiteering.

All you have mentioned in your comment are Luxuries and can be done without water as you know can not Troll

@Paul
Water is far more essential.

paul , i dont know if your joking but your right………..food water and healthcare should be a right for everybody.

I’m not joking, I’m being ironic. Food is a necessity to sustain human life, but nobody is suggesting that people who can afford to pay for food should get it for free. Water is a necessity to sustain human life, but suggest that people who can afford to pay for water should get it for free, and you’re an evil bastard.

I don’t understand the reasoning.

my point is that food water and healthcare should not be a commodity

If you want to explain to farmers and fishermen that they shouldn’t be allowed to make a living selling food, feel free. Meanwhile, out here in the real world, food is a commodity, and the more you consume the more you pay. Water – despite the collective Irish delusion that it magically makes its own way from the sky to our taps – is an increasingly scarce commodity, and we need to pay for it.

paul , cant you grasp that capitalism is a human invention , and can be changed , capitalism unlike gravity is not part of the real world

Good idea, the councils should have responsibility for testing the water not the new semi state

Yes we live on an island surrounded by sea water not treated drinking water and while it rains a lot here rain water probably isn’t the best to drink either… The treatment and provision of water isn’t done cheaply

You talk about ignorant people yet suggest being surrounded by water means it should be free…ignorance indeed…

drink as much sea water as you want Gavin…

Sea water. Yummy.

Great for cooking with too, free seasoning ;)

*you’re

David Higgins
Is that all you have to say ? Of course you agree with the bullying tactics of your puppet masters in this government ! I forgot that you think it is perfectly alright for Hoghogan to threaten the elderly , the sick, the disabled , the poor , with massive fines that they can not implelent…and now with cutting off their water supply . What anarrogant shower of serlf righteous greedy fools Fine Gael have proved themselves to be .
David you are still a student , you are still learning ….

Jimbo…he wouldn’t make too much from that alone…a rain tax, a wind tax, a walking tax, a talking tax…oh why not just a breatheing tax and be done with it. Of course, there would have to be exemptions, I mean we couldn’t have Enda and Eamon and co suffering these taxes.

Is that a threat Finn ? ”we’d all better get used to it” ….. Why ? What will happen if we do not pay ?

Water in Ireland was never ‘free’. If you work in Ireland and pay tax then you are already paying for your water. This metered water is a double taxation on something you already pay for.

John
It’s news because the government have been trying to claim they won’t cut off water. They are trying to make water charges more palatable by saying it’s a panacea. It will create jobs, it will conserve water, it will raise money which by *inference* will be invested in the water scheme, it will be publicly owned.

They have lied before, and they are lying now.

And just to add when people say they want scandinavian standards for X Y & Z that is great but surely u recognise that those countries have achieved that her many years by having those taxes in place for the same amount of tone there’s no point In expecting the gov to have the money to provide such services over note and the start recovering for them … Like Scandinavia the money will have to be collected over time and investment done over the same period so that we can eventually reach that position

Also people who say that they have paid for water in other taxes should be welcoming this new approach as it is clear that the old format for water provision has not worked and needs reform …