Yes, best to do your washing up in a strong beer. Gets a nice froth going.

Very good.

I dont care who gets the contract. My mantra will still be – Not Paying and I am taking the stance advocated by Gilmore before he became a fat cat politician.

When Eamon Gilmore was a mamber of the Democratic Left this is what he had to say about the FF/Lab coalition of the day and their then plan to introduction of water charges

“Water charges are another TAX on workers on top of PAYE, PRSI and LEVIES.

This year the FF/LAB Government is demanding MORE TAX from the PAYE taxpayer. They have CUT mortgage interest relief, CUT VHI relief, IMPOSED Residential Property Tax and now they are making us PAY FOR WATER. But they are still looking after the tax dodgers.

Tax cheats are getting a tax amnesty.

They are also looking after themselves. Ministers are getting a pay rise of £220 a week.

DEMOCRATIC LEFT IS OPPOSED TO WATER CHARGES.

The PAYE taxpayer, whom we represent, has already paid enough tax for local services AND should not have to pay again…………. The problem now is – we have water charges, but no improvement in local services. If anything, services have worsened – because all that the water charges are doing is filling the shortfall in Government funding to the Council” Eamon Gilmore T.D., Dail Eireann, Dublin 2

(I used capitals where the text I took this from had used italics.)

My advice to all those that think we should do what Gilmore tells us – NEVER trust a turncoat and always give them the deaf ear.

.

Hey Ann I used to have trust (well some anyway) in the Catholic church but 20 years late I have very different views. Are people not allowed to change their stance on something? While I am no big fan of Eamon Gilmore I have less respect for people who are so dogmatic that they refuse to change to new circumstances.

Reg the point I am trying to make here is that Eamon Gilmore and his Labour Party are great at saying one thing and then doing another. They have become the party of U-Turns. Of course people are entitled to change their mind, it is our right to do so. But to do so just to hold onto power and status is immoral and unethical. Do you remember the words – Frankfurts way, no increase in student fees, the leaks in the water system will have to be fixed before we could expect anyone to put their hand in their pocket. They chose the fiddler, and now they are changing their tune to suit the fiddler and not the audience who are paying them. And they most certainly are not representing the “coping classes”.
It would appear that they are willing to change the foundations of their ideologies as long as the price is right.

Ah sure when they start Frackin we’ll have water and gas comming out of the same tap at the same time……Sure we’ll be the envy of Europe.

Yes first thing i saw this morning was Ed Sheerans face ..Aaaaaaaaaaaaahh!!

Bloody hell jimbo can you not post one comment that isn’t negative? The ads are bloody annoying, mainly because they don’t sit at the top like good boys but follow you all around the article. And if you are making a point about relevance then please tell me where he can pass comment? On the self critical article the journal is obviously going to publish on how annoying the adverts that pay for its upkeep are?

Good lad Jimbo, good lad.

Very clearly the case, and “no upfront charge” is about as meaningful as “free at the point of entry” (expect to hear that old chestnut bandied around a lot next year when higher education “reform” is back on the agenda) , it’s a loan with interest on the right to water.

No. The media and sites like this went off on one. They created confusion where there needed to be none.

Mcbab I think you’ll find Enda kenny himself proclaimed there to be an up front charge on prime time tv a mere four days ago. Can’t see the collusion between media in that instance, can you?

Dietrich, the right to water? No one is stopping to drinking it from the local river or looking up to the sky with your mouth open. But after its put through the four purification processes and piped into your home, It usually comes with a fee.

Whilst I agree that water quality must be higher, it’s a charge for waste water as much as it is for incoming clean water. Both providing clean water and treating waste water are relatively expensive processes.

I’m converned this will become a tax on the clean and it’ll lead to a lot of people stealing water beyond meters. Just as charging for waste has caused a lot of litter this has potential to cause a lot of leaks from people tampering with the piping etc. A portion of the cost of this should be put into a sinking fund to ensure any replacement pipes are burried deeper, thus avoiding frost issues in colder winters causing the sort of chaos, leaks and shortages we had in the previous colder winters.

Nooo Begrudgy – not liking the tone of your comment, its a bit defeatest and far from the solid stance I have come to expect from you. Dont let them wear you down, we won the water battle before and we can win it again. Hold strong and if you feel yourself faultering just reach out and one of your many comrades on here will give you the help you need to find your fighting spirit. United we’re strong – divided we fall.

I always made an effort to conserve water and will continue to do so, but unfortunately I will have to pay for my efforts in the future. So your statement that I will be rewarded for doing so is not true.

What about the money previously allocated by central government to local authorities for water services? Will we be getting that back in the form of tax reductions? Why can’t water be paid for out of the household tax when that comes into effect?

What I mean is that you are already paying for your water through your taxes, but you are subsidising those who waste water because they make the whole system more expensive to run.
Now you will just pay for what you use.

Hopefully the incentive to stop wasting water will make the whole system cheaper to run too.

James the people who waste the most water are the councils themselves who lose almost half of it through leaks. if you don’t realise that this is purely a revenue raising con by the government and nothing to do with water conservation then you are extremely gullible. Will the government reduce the other taxes we currently pay which fund water production at the moment, of course they won’t.

If the operational costs of the existing system are €1.2 billion and this new tax covers that cost (1m households paying €100/month), where do you think the €1.2 billion being saved by the government is being diverted to? Social programs or ECB repayments? Even if they initially re-invest it to upgrade the distribution channel, eventually there will be a surplus cash supply which will not result in a reduction in water charges.

What happens if someone doesn’t pay this bill? Will they cut off your water supply?

Despite the fact that your intentions seem good in terms of economic impact, this isn’t the way to go about it. I don’t understand how you can condone paying an extra tax to receive no extra product or service in return. Why do we pay PAYE, PRSI or VAT at all in the first place if not to preserve a fundamental right to fresh water that all Irish citizens should have?

I’m thinking in the long-term here. At the moment the country’s accounts are banjaxed. Of course our other taxes won’t be decreased in the short-term as a result of the introduction of water charges. However, even if these charges were not introduced, our taxes would be increasing in the short-term anyway because it costs money to run the country.

So one way or another we were going to be paying extra taxes. I think it is fairer to break down what you are paying, and what you are paying it for. That way you can control what you are paying and take responsibility for managing your own usage.

I absolutely acknowledge the ridiculous amount of water that is being lost through leakage. That is something that should be dealt with urgently. However, I don’t think this means that charges shouldn’t be introduced. If both were done properly then we would have a much more efficient system.

In regards to blaming just the council for waste – firstly, they don’t have the finances to replace and upgrade the old pipes. This has been known for years, even during the good times, but its taking another government and during a recession to get serious about addressing the problem. I would have said bad timing but seeing as 2014 at the earliest will be the time a bill may arrive through our doors – I think that is positive for the people who have had enough and cant pay any more at the moment. Secondly; You cant blame the council. They repaired what they could, when it needed repairing but their hands were tied after that as money wasn’t their to address the bigger picture. People *do* waste water because its free – there is no point pretending everyone uses only what they need, and a low usage. I think people will become more economical in terms of water usage and if your neighbour wants to have the tap running as he washes his car three times a day – hey, what do you care. Your not going to have to pay for his water usage anymore. Finally, as for tax breaks – the % of money set aside for water will probably remain in place for sometime until the service can run independently on its own reserves. When that happens, id like to see the money being directed at other public services which remain cash strapped and need the money. No point refunding if other services are looking for cash and will eventually need it so that the government has to increase taxes to make up the shortfall, which could be significantly smaller if the money was redirected appropriately.

The funny thing is Robert I don’t think they can, access to water is a fundamental human right as far as I am aware so I think they can fine you, get judgements against you take you to court and maybe even lock you up, but they can’t cut you off!!!

You’re correct Joseph. It still seems outrageous that someone could technically be incarcerated (where they can get all the free water they want) for not paying a water stealth tax.

Robert, it’s hardly a stealth tax! It’s pretty explicit!

If I’m understanding correctly, it’s not being established as a tax rather as a utility cost. Similar to electricity and gas, which is not viewed as a tax. By it’s very definition a stealth tax is one that’s levied in such a way that it’s not recognised as a tax. This being a good example.

That’s fair enough Robert I fully take your point but I don’t think they’re trying to fool anyone. It’s the only feasible way of charging for water. They would have an easier time increasing an existing tax than they would introducing a charge for something that didn’t previously have a charge. Not to mention the fact that they’ve been told by their puppetmasters that they have to introduce the charge.
I don’t think it’s intended as a stealth tax, although it may fit into the definition of one.

Items for sale must be as described, of saleable quality and fit for the purpose. If they market it as safe drinking water you have a case for a refund, if they market it “smelly poisonous shite you can just about use to flush yer jax” then they have ya

There’s an optimist if ever I saw one!

Attend your first interview in Warsaw.

Fair enough considering they provide the water for themselves. It’s the water coming through the mains that costs €1.2bn annually yet it’s covered by everyone’s taxes regardless of how much water we use. The new system will have a free allowance of water and then a charge thereafter. Fair, progressive, and about time considering the rest of Europe has had them for decades now!

It’ll only be fairer David if we get tax breaks in return seeing as we are currently paying the tax that covers it

Also David large swathes of Britain dont they pay a standing charge based on property size and last time I looked it was still in Europe!

but will still need a meter!?!

@ David. It will only really be fair if the free allowance, as described by the government is actually generous. This generous free allowance implies that a person should be able to use all the water an average person would need to use in the normal course of events, without any extra charge. If this was the case, and only those who wasted water were charged, then I would be all for it. However, I suspect that this generous allowance will turn out to be yet another lie.

Maybe because they have spent thousands upon thousands installing and maintaining this equipment . Alot of people couldn’t get onto a public scheme.
If waste is the issue then Perhaps the government should have promoted the drilling of private wells . 40 euro a year for a meter before you turn the tap is a bit rich .

No, thats not interesting to note at all.

Completely irrelevant.

Very interesting ! Thank you for telling us this . It all adds up to cronyism , yet again !

Someone already asked that and it has been answered above. Bord Gáis is to be split into two entities, only one of which is to be sold.

Didn’t spot that till now. Thanks

@Kevin. Air is no longer free either. I was at my local garage today to pump a wheel and you must pay €1 to get air. This is not where you put a €1 in and get it back like shopping trolley’s they actually charge you €1 for 5 minutes use with the air. I think Esso are rolling it out to all stations

@Eugene, why should they not charge for those air pumps, they do have a cost you know?

Eugene, I dislike paying for things as much as the next person, but those air pumps are more expensive to run than you’d think. The equipment is expensive to begin with, the compressor is running all day using electricity, and valves and pipes constantly need to be replaced due to wear as a result of use and of people driving over the pipe / crashing into the unit etc. I have a footpump in the boot of my car, wouldn’t leave home without it!

I was just saying there is a charge for the air and that’s my point in relation to water rates. Things that were free are no longer free and there is a cost for everything. I know the machinery is expensive and it really annoys me the lack of respect shown towards the equipment at times.

This is the problem with the country now. We know the price of everything but the value of nothing any longer!!

Back on point, this just smells of another HSE effort so that the Minster can say ‘ oh thats nothing to do with me, that’s the responsibility of Irish Water’ !!!

Bord Gáis is to be split into two sections: the provider and the system-maintainer side. It’s just the provider part that is to be sold. I would assume that the water provision would remain with the part of Bord Gáis that will be retained by the state.

Alex they are only selling the Energy Division of Bord Gáis so I am assuming that the Networks Division which is not being sold will run the water metering etc.

No because it’s a subsidiary of Bord Gais. Totally new company.

I think it’s safe to assume that water will be fully privatised down the road, give it a few years.

They will sell Irish Water provider along with Bord Gais provider. I hope they will not be short-sighted enough to sell off the infrastructure.

Given the lies this government has told so far do you really trust them to believe anything they say any more?

Agreed!

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your comment. We try and stay on top of all the stories we write and if there is a comment that goes against our policy, we will remove it.

However, some of them obviously slip through the cracks. If you see something that you feel goes against our community rules, please feel free to report it using the Report this comment link – it’s pretty quick – and it means it will be flagged to us in good time.

Hope that helps a little bit.
Sinead

You do know your post is random and off topic???? Get to work journal…. Do as the man wants!

Nothing worse than backseat mods a breach of any forum

Only for the first year, after that we will have to pay for it!

but how was it flowing freely? wasnt it paid for by central government? where did central government get the money? taxes by any chance? or was the government generating money? if you paused for but a second i think you will find it was not flowing freely

I think he meant more in terms of – anybody can use what they want, when they want and not have to pay any extra. Everyone was charged the same regardless of how much they used. Now, the new system will prevent that and make it fairer.

Really I lived in England up until the back end of 2007 and never had a meter, paid a standing charge based on the size of my property!

And that’s still the way my friends in Manchester and dad in Mansfield pay for their water!

Yeah but Joseph, that’s common sense. Welcome to Ireland, where greed and idiocy reins supreme.

fair enough, although i wasnt aware we had a shortage

It is free if the cost is not proportional to the usage. I could leave my taps running all day all year and not pay anymore than the person next door who is conservative with their water usage. Regardless of who’s paying taxes or who’s on social welfare. Explain that peasant?

i misunderstood your point Joe, i stand corrected, your point is well made, now if only we could get them to stop poisoning the supply with flouride

James you are so right about that. So frustrating not to be able to have rational debate. Just too many anti everything posters on here. Also so annoying when they post incorrect information. Would be good if the journal could post corrections.

Spot on. Its the same few names all the time. They know it all, they will pay for nothing!!…well just their internet bill so they can keep sprouting crap about government on here. Journal revolutionist I call them.

Ha ha, I was remarking the same thing myself , true it is the same names all the time spouting government policy like the little lap dogs they have come to be, nodding in agreement all the time … Not for one minute do I believe that you all agree with the hhc or the now water and meter charges…..

The community welfare officer does not pay utility bills. That is yet another myth. They will give people half the money for a washing machine or fridge, you must produce an estimate first and the cheque is written out to the shop. They also give a winter clothing payment.

No surprise from you susie. No your favourite word ?

Mcbab
Do not presume to know me or anything about me . No is not my favorite word …

Nice one Joan, good luck with organising that one.

Voter apathy is not something that we should be encouraging or advocating. Thousands of good, honourable and patriotic Irish men and women lost their lives so we could live in a “free and democratic” society.

Is organised rejection of the current politics really apathy though Ann, choosing not to do something on principle and not being arsed are two different things. However, I would rather advocate spoiling the vote as a more tangible protest

Being honest Joan . I cherish my vote , even tho I used it under false promises in the general election the fact I used it gives me the right to protest now. . . . I wil not advocate not voting or spoiling your vote. I will vote , I will vote no in the referendum, I will not pay the hhc, I will not pay this water charge .To hell with the troika who are dictating to us.