Sopt on.
They’ve jumped from €300 to €800 overnight and they’re being fawned over (certain radio station this morning) like it’s a great thing and they’re doing us a favour…

Labour to install them. Unions will make plumbers are well paid.

I dont believe there is any intent to make the water board a private group. In fact I believe the report specifically calls for the untility to remain within public ownership.

Well your very naive. Rem IMF have done this before.

Now let’s look at the job creation of 2000 people… Who do you think will be paying for these people…

Have you ever worked at any serious level in a utility company… Do you know how much it costs to send a single invoice… They have already started by charging €800 for a meter which costs €70… Remember what. Happens during our first big freeze…

This is a complete disgrace, we should be saving costs not increasing them. This whole idea is very badly thought out. But what do we expect from Mr. Hogan…

Jack,
Just because you found a link on the internet means nothing? As it stands the water board will stay in public hands. Stop trying to suggest otherwise

“Stop trying to suggest otherwise”

The whole thing is set up like a private operator… That is the reason for metering…

It looks like at least 40% of the charges for this will be about charging. So checking meters, replacing meters, preparing bills and all the ream of services around them.

Can you tell me were Irish people are wasting water at such a rate that it is economical to charge them. I presume that certain industries are exempt from these charges i.e. farming, brewing, car washs….

I don’t see the reason 40%+ charge to see if people are using a gallon or two too much water… We are not like the rest of Europe. Just bring in a law which states fines for persistent wasting of water… Force some industries (e.g. Car washes) to recycle water… Cost close to zero

To pay for it go for the most efficient way of getting money from the populous, Income Tax…

Household charge and water charges are just stealth taxes…. I don’t see any major waste of water by the civillian population in Ireland when compare to our local authorities…

total joke,
one one hand they are talkin about sellin state assets,
and one the other thinkin of creatin a new state asset?

and yeah decko, we’re to believe that this one will be special,
and will not be considered for sale at some time in the future?
maybe when we’re on our 3rd or 4the bailout.
Merciful Jasus

Have you a crystal ball Declan?
I’m sure P&T / Telecom Eireann was supposed to stay in public hands too..
And what about Coillte and ESB?
Just because it’s a public company now does not guarantee it will be remaining so in future.
There is no firm evidence either way besides past experience and current promises..
State assets have been sold off in the past, and this government have made promises they knew they couldn’t keep. They promise this will remain public, is it prudent or wise to believe them?

I would love to know this – My house was built in 2007 and I have a Water Meter already? Where can we see if I will be paying for another one.

And imagine how much less it would be for our ‘government’ to buy in the quantities necessary. Niall, can you post a link to that please? We need to pass this info on to everybody as quickly as possible. Thank you.

no your right…..800 euro for a meter that costs 50 euro !

A very well written and true comment Stephen we should all print this comment and mail it daily to every government office, let them know how strong the feeling is and that we simply won’t just role over anymore..

Thank you jrbmc.

I have to say it really scares me how out of touch the government of this country are.
Not many people in Ireland would complain about paying for something worthy of payment.
But a couple of major things need to be in place before this is possible.

1 – A service worthy of payment
2 – The money to pay for the service

At the moment we don’t have either of the above.

@Stephen It is indeed a basic human right, as acknowledged by the UN with Ireland as a signatory. It would be interesting to see how it pans out in court. Cut off a populations water supply = war crime punishable in the Hague, Cut off 100,000 peoples water supply who simply can’t afford to pay twice for the same thing = ?

Thank you Too Trueleft.

Amazing! Do the people who are supposed to know these sanctions, rules actually have any clue about their existence?

Very valid point. That rental was initially a public charge too, let’s not forget what eircom was before the Irish people lost their savings investing under the advisement of government..

And me neither but I am not prepared to wait for the election FF ARE ROTTEN TO THE CORE but THIS GOVERNMENT ARE ROTTEN TO THE CORE AND LIARS THAT DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING CIRLES AND UTURNS AND sorry about capitals hikes in salaries for buddies and quangos I have no confidence in this Government and there should be some route we the public can take to get rid of the /sack them without pensions ….. Our country will never come back we are all heading for the below the poverty line

Who do you suggest Martin and Bernadette?? Where would you get the taxes to pay for our Guards, Nurses etc.?? I would like to know… And be straight with me…If you think people on over a 100k should be taxed more – say it, If you think corporation tax should be increased – say it….
At least then, i will have an idea of what your policies are.

Yes but Martin who will you vote in they are all being led by the nose by europe etc. Any party voted in will have to tow the line untill the people of Ireland say NO like they did in Iceland. Ireland isnt being run by Labour etc any more and wont be for a long long time to come.

This will suit the Catholic Church, they always thrive where there is poverty.

It’s not about who you vote for. These are just figureheads, they’re there to give the impression of democracy. In reality it’s the senior civil servants and the EU who tell them what they can and can’t do. This is why no matter who is in power the crapola remains the same.

Until we change the system, vote for whoever you like, it won’t make a blind bit of difference..

I actually believe this is a ‘charge’ and not a tax. Should people be made to pay for water usage the same way as electricity or gas. I think on balance the answer for most people would be yes.

Should people pay the government to violate their constitutional rights?
It’s article 40 if I remember correctly, the right to bodily integrity.
The Irish government is the only EU government that spends a few million per year pumping fluorosilic acid and sodium fluoride into the water supply. This is forced medication, for which I did not give my consent, therefore, the government is violating my right to bodily integrity by continuing with this practice, so I ask again – why should I pay for that?

The reason our EU counterparts don’t do it is a mixture of health, ethical and constitutional concerns.. The EU have warned against using fluoridated water to make baby formula for health reasons, and you are advised to seek medical attention if you swallow toothpaste because of the fluoride content.

I already pay to filter my water. If the stuff that came out of my tap wasn’t full of fluoride and tasted of chlorine I would gladly pay.

No, they will just walk in and install it and you’ll say thank you, have a nice day.
The only complaining you’ll do is on this site.

Water meters are normally installed outside the boundary to a private property. No need for anyone to walk in anywhere!

Some business is already planning to make a fortune screwing the people for these meters. lets wait and see who gets the contract. Contracts + government = corruption.

Our group water scheme was switched over to the council 2 years ago, and at that time, the council installed meters at every house on the scheme – suspect that’s happening with any group scheme that’s looking to the council to take over the management and running.

I have no problem with paying a charge for using water – it’s one of our most precious commodities and should be treated as such – but I favour a pay for use charge, as opposed to blanket charges.

Most Irish people don’t behave like the thugs who were at the Labour conference at the weekend.

Even then people take their anger out at politicians, not at someone who’s just come off the dole to install these meters. 2,000 construction jobs on the way through water charges.

David. I sincerely hope you’re right but lets face it, this contract will most possibly go to a foreign firm with foreign workers brought in to carry out the work. I for one would agree with a pay for usage system, I’ll tell you why, I was doing a job in a gentlemans house in Cork some years back, after availing of the toilet I noticed his tap was running fast, I couldn’t turn it off. I reported the problem to the homeowner who informed me it was that way for 10 years! 10 years he had being wasting 100s of litres of water everyday, all for the cost of a fecking washer!

Yup, with close to 40% of the countries mains water leaking through broken cracked pipes, they are again conning people into believing they are paying for flushing their toilet and guilty for having a longer than avg shower, disgusting seeing that we pay now and have always paid for water and all other services through a central taxation pool, where does your VAT, PRSI, Stamp Duty, USC all go? Ans. 1 big pool where money is then allocated to Dept.’s and services.
This is nothing short of double taxation, and robbery at that, all to pay for Germany’s gambling.

Not quite true Damhsa – here’s a little history lesson! Bertie doubled public spending between 1997 and 2007 using the tax receipts from money that was borrowed by our banks from international banks and pumped into the Irish economy largely unchecked and loosely regulated. He also cut income tax and eroded the tax base leaving the country seriously exposed when the downturn came. Most of what the country is now borrowing is for public services/salaries/pensions/social welfare etc. Ireland eventually had to go to the borrower of last resort (EU/IMF) as it was running out of money and couldn’t borrow on the international money markets at sustainable interest rates. One of the conditions of these loans is that it honours the guarantee that Fianna Fail gave about all the debts of the banks. But hey, don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Sean,
I was in Galway area as well….And the crowd protesting did not look like they were starving either…

The gang rampaging outside looked well fed and watered too. So what’s your point?

Give me a break jrbmc…. Its not all about bankers and bondholders….We spend more than we earn…simple as that…either we raise taxes or we cut services….you decide….How would you raise extra taxes to pay for or day to day services…? I am listening.

Http://www.mytub.co.uk

Range from £47 upwards took me an hour to find a site that did the price, I’d imagine if it was smart metering it will be far upwards of that as the meters need to connect to a HAN as its called or a household area network ie your wireless network at home (revenue stream anyone €4 per mb?), without losing the plot let’s see what decision is made in the cabinet meeting rather than conjecture.

Thanks for that Niall.

Declan it’s all about banks and bondholders. Wake up or else go back to sleep. It’s all about banks and bondholders.

We are in so much debt because we’re having to pay fake debts back. And because our citizens are drowning paying back mortgages for overpriced houses, overpriced because of cheap money that fuelled the boom in this country.

And as an aside I don’t want to pay any extra for water cos it rains too much. :)

@reada, despite your heartfelt efforts, Ireland will for the foreseeable have to pay these debts… So as Declan cotter asked, what do you suggest that politicians and administrators do?

Just because you says it so Reada??? Sorry, not buying it… Leaving bondholders and bank debt to one side…. We spend way more running this country than we take in. Thats the bottom line. So either we find gold or raise revenue is some way. How do you suggest we pay for our Nurses, Police, Dole etc. etc…. Please tell me???

Wasting your time Declan, Réada and a few of her cohorts don’t seem to realise that most of what the country is borrowing is for public services/salaries/pensions/social welfare etc. When you have go to the borrower of last resort (EU/IMF) it comes with serious terms and conditions.

Kinda guessed that Reg.. I am also very aware that I am in the complete minority on this forum… I am pretty sure that increased corporation tax and income tax on people earning over 90k will be suggested…. Well I work for a company that most certainly will leave if we increase the corporation tax and people on 90k and more already pay the majority of the tax in Ireland (In fact I believe up on 80% of income tax is paid by people earning more than 75k)….So where do we go??? Who has the answers???? Lets hear it Reada ‘o great one’…

Declan.
How about imposing fines on huge multinationals who habitually dump toxic waste into our rivers? At present a telling off is the worst they get. Surely there’s an EU directive about fines for polluting waterways that we are supposed to be upholding? And if not, why not?

We could save a few million annually by simply not fluoridating the water supply.

After that, when we have cleaned up the mess, used the money saved and obtained to fix the leaky waterways, and our water is clean and useable, I will have no problem paying. As I’ve said many times, I’m already paying to make my own water drinkable, if they save me having to do that, I have no problem paying for it.

Shanti???
What are you on about? Suggest a real alternative to gain revenue?

Right, so people shouldn’t discuss these potential charges? Why not? Which governmental department do you work for?

Nice circumstantial ad hominem there, pity it doesn’t make your case for you. Whether or not some people could get to Galway or not is completely irrelevant, but nice manipulation attempt.

And what of the valid reasons for not wishing to pay?
1. We already pay, via our taxes. As was the deal the last time this initiative failed. However, the waterways have not been maintained despite the fact we were paying for them to be, meaning we have leaks, contamination, frequent interruptions to supply and multicoloured water.

2. There’s a large number of people who have terrible lime problems, and already have to spend extra replacing equipment more regularly than should be necessary.

3. It’s fluoridated. Sorry, but theres no sound evidence to support this practice (and a lot of evidence to discourage it). This is forced medication, without consent – with a drug that causes dental fluorosis at the very least (and possibly bone cancer too), this violates my right to bodily integrity as enshrined in the constitution.

4. We don’t impose fines on multinationals who pollute our rivers. I’ve a friend from Rathfarnam, GSK destroyed the river near his house, they didn’t even get a slap on the wrist, my ex’s job was to do environmental audits on big factories and some of the stories he told me were quite shocking, but there was no political will to curtail it.

This is why *I* am opposed. I pay for filters to make my water drinkable, if the stuff that came out of my tap was clean, and I wasn’t already paying for it, I would have no issue with it.

Yeah, your right. Paying €800 (probably with interest) over 20 years for a meter that costs less than €100 and will probably need replacing in 10-15 years time (by a then privatised company) sounds like a real good deal.

http://www.ifs-store.com/products/Siemens-WFC36.E130.html

http://www.wwdmag.com/meters/determining-economical-optimum-life-residential-water-meters

???????????? well if you think its not that bad to pay 800 euro !

I would imagine the 40 euro will cover maintenance etc. I suspect if you compare this to private schemes then the cost is low.

Why did i get thumbs down for statement below???

@Declan Cotter- I ‘suspect’ that you got thumbs down for “imagining” what the charge means when the article states it is to cover the cost of water meters, therefore rendering speculation pointless

Not at all Declan.
I will gladly pay for clean, drinkable water. Water which does not destroy my house.
Water in which I don’t have to filter through my fridge in order to take out “The white floaty bits” as my kids call it.

What the majority of people on this blog though think though I’m sure is “We have to pay for another thing which is worthless??”

Yes

You still use it though Stephen? To wash , flush toilets etc?

Of course I do. What else am I supposed to do with waste and dirty clothes.
At the moment it is free, therefor i am not kicking up too much of a fuss with the damage it is causing my house and I am installing appropriate measures to stop everything else from breaking.

What a ridiculous retort – If this is the standard of your debating skills I’m afraid I will bow out now and leave you to continue on.

Water in this country is not, and never has been free Declan. It has always been paid for through our taxes, both direct and indirect. Now, I know at the moment the tactic of repeating something often enough until people taking it at face value is being employed by the most vociferous FG lackeys, but this is just a simple fact. We are being asked to pay twice for the same thing.

Correct me if I’m wrong but won’t we be paying for this three times? Through central taxation that had previously been allocated to local authorities to fund water services, through the new household tax which we will be paying to – in the parlance of the coalition – “fund local services”, and then again in charges for installation of meters and water rates to the “transitional” ‘Irish Water’.

Last year my local authority spent €29 Million on Water Services (€43.8 in expenditure less €14.3 in revenue), if they are now being divested of that responsibility at the same time that I am being asked to fund them directly while there is no concomitant reduction in the taxes I ALREADY pay to fund their operations am I not paying for the same service effectively THREE times? (not including the fact that I am being footed with the bill for the infrastructure which they will use to extract payments from me)

I suggest that they do what they were elected to do. What they said they were going to do. “Not another cent!”

Stop behaving as if we are a flipping company. We’re a country fgs.

Can i just say this…People on this forum believe for some reason that the rates of taxation in Ireland (Direct and Indirect ) are especially high relative to other countries….They are not!!! So I am afraid you income tax does not cover all these things anymore… Its was all fine during the boom when we had money rolling in via stamp duty etc…Now its gone I am afraid so we either pay or do without. Simple as that.

Declan,
Water Meters are a hugely inefficient way of collecting money from a people. The most effective way is VAT or Income tax which are already in place and easy to implement.
This government are like a broken record in trying to implement stealth taxes like we are stupid…

2000 job to collect at most €180 million is grossly inefficient. There salaries alone could (€40,000 avg) would be €80 million. Revenue could do the same thing with better equity with the stoke of a pen.
Declan, you lack the understanding of how much money is going to be wasted…. The local athorities waste by far the most water in this country and did nothing about it for years…