Unalaska, a sensible point. The consequences of repossession will be hugely damaging to society, causing much misery, social exclusion and great insecurity.

@ Nuala Reid, my spelling is atrocious. sorry

The “Insolvency Service Of Ireland”. And another costly bureaucratic Government mess is created.

A man said to me today that “this once beautiful country is dead and the government are like vultures picking the scabs off the corpse”.
He told me that his three kids are in Austrailia and Canada and he is lucky if he sees them once a year.
Still though the vultures will feast over the festive weekend and with any luck it will choke them.

The bye-election is irrelevant and has absolutely no impact on government. Historicaly, the incumbent government never wins a bye-election.

@ John Morris, a perceptive voice of practicality and sanity. I agree.

The “what about me” crowd need to realise that we all live in a society, and destroying that society benefits nobody.

@ censored, you are absolutely right. It was radical individualism and pursuit of short term profit for a narrow sector of bankers, developers, property professionals as well as certain politicians which caused this crisis. We need a sensible and sustainable society approach. We cannot live the victims of the Great Mortgage Scam in misery and left with the spectre of dispossession and homelessness. It is a truth that we are inter dependent.

Ah but “what about me” is ingrained in the Irish personality!

Wise words John Morris. Everyone thinks they are worse off than the next. Grass is always greener

The term good money after bad was never so apt.

Anyone can declare them self bankrupt

What’s negative equity got to do with this? Doesn’t make a mortgage harder to pay. Negative equity is a combo of market flux and in some cases borrowing too much against the value. Has no relevance here.

You’re right it doesn’t make it harder to pay. I should have explained that I mean sorting mortgage arrears and negative equity would help kick start the economy and improve things for the nation as a whole.

My main point was that the €10-15 billion should not have been handed to the bank. It should have been handled by the government and used properly

Iceland wrote down mortgages.

The US forced banks to write down mortgages in return for not investigating some of their dodgy lending practices.

But in Ireland….. you can talk about moral hazard until you’re blue in the face, but at the end of the day something is going to have to be done.

Padraig, it may not make a mortgage harder to pay. It does however, make it impossible for distressed homeowners to sell and holds banks back from repossessing where mortgages are unsustainable.

Look at it how you wish, pursuance of negative equity is relatively fruitless anyway so write downs are absolutely the best option. The alternative is evict, banks spend a fortune in legal fees to recoup nothing and in most of these cases the govt will have to re-house families.

Distressed mortgages should be looked at case by case; if there is negative equity then this must be taken account of. However, it does say in big letters on all mortgage advertising “Your home is at risk if you do not keep up payments”.

Dermot, we can evict them. We can take to the streets and protest in massive numbers and if that doesn’t work
We could then call three days general strike. I’m old enough to know that this would work perfectly. So how about it?

Join you on the street no probs but I can’t strike …………. I’m a bloody farmer and the sheep just don’t get it !

the same as customers of E.S.B. …………THINK YOU OWN IT AND THEN BANG!………. A CORRUPT GOVERNMENT OR TWO AND YOU’RE SHAFTED!

In all your citations about who was to blame, you forgot to actually mention the persons who took out the loans. Yes them ones without the moral hazards who went into the bank with a gun pointed to their head saying “take this load or else”. !!!!!!

“Any person who buys a court ordered repossessed home is a selfish and despicable opportunist” – are you saying that all reposessed homes should be demolished, no one to live in them again?

Should the same principle not therefore apply to the banks?

Or the bond holders?

And they have given the bank the green light to hound the borrower with phone calls and letters.

I don’t see how ‘that’s it’. If you cannot afford to pay what ought to happen? Should you get kicked out of your house? We’d have thousands of evictions then and the social problems and ruined lives that would entail would be awful. Or should the banks say ‘you’re grand, you don’t have to pay anymore, you can stay in your house for free’? Then you’d have the problem of moral hazard, with people who are paying their mortgages questioning as to why they should.
So to say ‘that’s it’ is a completely unhelpful comment as it’s clearly ‘not it’. It’s one of the biggest challenges facing the Irish people today.

If you can’t pay then you should be kicked out of your house. End of. Go rent.

@Joohn, No it’s not end of. Even if you lose the house, in Ireland the debt stays with you. You’re still liable for it. It’s not like in the USA where you hand the keys back to the bank and walk away.

Yeah I didn’t mean the slategets wiped! I meant that the end of them trying to get debt forgiveness, they can go rent and pay back what they owe to the bank for buying a box for 600k!

@ joohn no not end of, obviously you have no problem with the idea of evicting families on hard times because your alright jack, remember, if someone is evicted the government still has to supply alternative accommedation and at what cost? €900.00 a month? use your head.

@ Gillian.
The majority of these people CAN and WANT to pay their mortgage on their home,
a sustainable mortgage,
based on a REAL values,
REAL values based on REAL fundamentals and
not interest rate
Crap Shoot
Lucky Dip
Ticking Timebomb Mortgages
based on bank managers monthly lending targets
and or corrupt/criminal bank’s ability to
label the mortgage Triple A+++,
securitise it,
bundle it up and sell it off on the stock exchange.

With nearly a couple of hundred thousand of these distressed mortgages in the country (approx 20-25% of all mortgages),
and another couple of hundred thousand imminently heading that way,
we are now in a situation where 50% of all mortgages in the country could be affected,
I’d safely say Gillian that these mortgages were poisoned at source and not fit for purpose in the first place.
And I’m afraid this useless government can not bring back the victims of mortgage stress related, emigrations and suicides, that are a direct result of corrupt/criminal banking practices.

Far to little,
Far to late, Mr Noonan.

By the way have any of you
“Baying For Blood” “Alright Jacks” who sit on your “I bought in the 90′s” or “I didn’t buy at all” fence
met face to face with any of these
“Come in And Talk” mortgage arrears “specialists” in your local bank branch???
Personally I have had first hand experience with 90% of the banks in the country.
And all I can say is that if you are only €100 Euro in arrears, they treat you like you are €100,000 in arrears.
The attitude of these so called “specialists” are
these mortgages are doomed to fail anyway (sher isn’t that the way we sold them)
lets try and get the mortgage holders in a worse situation
so we can call in their loss making mortgages
sack staff
shut shop
repo and resell homes
and get out of here fast
before there is a banking inquiry
or mass compensation claims for financial malpractice.

Listen people
A large amount of these mortgages are on 1% above ECB rate trackers
an ECB rate that’s at its lowest level EVER,
and still a lot of these families can’t get anywhere near paying there mortgage,
All that these families wanted was a basic run of the mill financial product to buy a basic run of the mill family home,
and instead they got shafted and vilified.
So I please ask for you, to kindly save your Low Digs for NAMA’s 74 Billion Euro Boys and their Banking and Government Bedfellows!!!

So job loss and economy collapse were created by ordinary people who wanted a family, and are u happy to pay for their rent allowance or council home instead of negotiating with them?

I hope you are directing that comment to those at the top of this Pyramid Mr Rat??
Because that is where the problem is.
NAMA, The Banks, The Regulator and Co.etc.

@ GatheringYourMoney, yes, you have identified the real miscreants.

Greedy fcuks who looked down on those you chose not to mortgage themselves to the hilt.. fcuk them all- i hope they drown in poisoned debt

@ Patrick, you are in a better position than many. You have the security of a roof over your head. Others need help in the greater public interest. We should not begrudge them that assistance. I too work over 60 hours a week hoping to hold on for three more years to pay off my mortgage. I don’t begrudge assistance to others. I live a frugal lifestyle but that is my choice.

You can hand the keys back if you want, but you will still owe the money and can be pursued for it in the courts. So they can bankrupt you anyway. If you could just hand the keys back and walk away thousands (tens of thousands) of people would have already done that, with joy and relief.

Some people have done it and fled the country (ie emigrated) but their debt will be waiting for them if they ever return, so basically they can’t ever come back.

Getting up in the morning is a risk,starting a business is a risk what’s your point?Just remember people bought houses when they had jobs,before their pay pack was raided by government.

If you take a gamble and lose, you should accept your losses, even if it does mean moving our of your big comfy home and renting

So having over 90,000 households unable to take part in the economy is a good thing?

@ brass rat, your right in a normalised economy which ours is not. The banks also borrowed in order to lend and they got caught with their trousers down but hey, it one rule for them so we bail them out with soverign capital including enough to cover bad debt on the domestic loan book but fillet the poor aul citizen who got sucked into the spin being played out by those who shudda known better. The banks need to be controlled not given more powers.

If a brass rat falls does it have a “soft landing”?

Did you miss where a pervious poster told you that is not an option available to a mortgage holder.
Btw i have a very small mortgage more than able to meet it,but more than willing to see my tax money help a fellow citizen in trouble.

Actually it is an option. Whisper it softly as the banks don’t want you to know the Facts. It depends on circumstances but if you genuinely don’t have the money to service the debt and you have no other discernible assets the bank can do nothing. The bank will get a mortgage judgement on selling the house, this judgement will be registered against any assets one has. If one has no assets, the judgement will lapse after 6 years. If one has other assets (say a property in negative equity), the debt will be registered against that property but if it is not enforced within 12 years it will be null and void & the claim to the debt dies (to be enforced, significant equity to cover the shortfall will need to exist). The bank can make an application to obtain some of your income but if you are struggling to survive no judge will grant such a request.

Particularly in the case of those leaving the country with zero assets of significance (or zero traceable assets), it is a myth to think you can’t hand back the keys. Sure the bank can pursue you for bankruptcy but that is very expensive & a route they will never take if you have an ordinary mortgage debt outstanding.

Agree with this except for the bit about a judgement mortgage – it can be renewed prior to the 12 years and be extended for a further period.
I don’t know what the answer is to the mortgage crisis. I think there are a lot of people out there who genuinely can’t pay but there are a lot of people out there who can pay but won’t!
I don’t think the answer is the government paying a huge portion of mortgage interest supplement on a mortgage that is unsustainable. But if that person looses their house the state is obliged to house them so they will be paying the same if not more in rent allowance!
The whole thing is just a disaster.

@ Jenny Rosen, that is a decent and enlightened view. I have three years to run on my mortgage and I feel that society as a whole will benefit if mortgage debt can be adjusted to a sustainable level. I don’t want to see families dispossessed of their homes.

@moneymaid, I’m open to correction but I’m 99% positive a judgement mortgage is not renewable. Can you refer me to act that states otherwise and I will review ? Thanks

@ Money Maid and John Morris, sadly a Judgment Mortgage, once registered, remains indefinitely as a charge on the folio or unregistered title unless or until it is satisfied.

Hi Peter, yes it remains on the property but after 12 years if it is not enforced is null and void. The debtor can then make an application to have this removed without any recourse to the creditor. After 12 years if the debt is not enforced it effectively dies.

@ John Morris, did not the Land Law and Conveyancing Reform Act, 2009, clarify that there was no 5 year renewal requirement and that a Judgment Mortgage is given the same status of an ordinary annuity mortgage?

The other dimension is the practical one. If you try to sell a property with a judgment mortgage registered on it, the buyer’s solicitor will require it to be discharged but the judgement mortgaged won’t do that unless it is paid in full.

I don’t know if you can apply to a Court or other authority to cancel the judgement mortgage. A debt under seal has a 12 year limitation period but the problem is how to get rid of the judgment mortgage. You may be right. I must check it out as a matter of curiosity.

A renter can trade down,not so easy with a mortgage.

Too right. We renters get nothing.

Blah Blah Blah green shoots of recovery

How many people with mortgage arrears losing sleep would welcome some of the €638 million given to Africa by our stupid government every year. We should start a movement called charity begins athome

Blaa blaa turned a corner blaa blaa bullshit.

I agree with you in some part Susanna… Our tax money should be going towards those in this country who are really in need. Not those who have been on welfare for generations. Not those who fake medical issues. Not those who refuse th offer of work. Not our politicians who recieve huge salaries or benefits. Not those whose pensions we continue to pay after getting us in this mess. And finally, not those folks who refuse to pay any part of their mortgage and can pay…
Because they know that our taxes will eventually bail them out.

Well Susanna how many people will die due to aid being withdrawn, happy to life with that, if so how can we bring your theory back home, perhaps if u reach a certain agreed cost of health care, if u are sick and exceed this, tough the budget, or maybe if we lump everybody with special needs into one big area and care for them there, providing they don’t exceed your health care limit. Quality of life, secondary as long as we make the budget. Right?

Being Irish I tend to want to help those suffering famine conditions etc, not just because of our history, but because us, you me “the west” have directly contributed to these human beings suffering.

Wake up!

I don’t Sussana, pretty heartless IMO
Pretty cold on your part

PunchUinFace.. Well said! By the way I think Susanna brought Africa into the picture as a personal dig. Susanna, if this is not so… My apologies.

Sorry that happens man – you’ve some class to keep commenting on here :)

Re Africa …it was reported that computers were being bought in Uganda with Irish Aid money ……….. furthermore a nation we gave aid to ordered a load of fighter jets ! ……………… How many people will starve in these countries ;don’t know but I do know you can’t eat computers or jets ! ……..

The flip side of that is that if the money saves even one life then it is worth it. Of course there are abuses.

The €638 million is a drop in the ocean compared to the abuse and corruption here at home. It is money well spent on helping (mainly) deserving causes.

Marlon, I thought the same and was a little shocked. Hope this is not what susanna intended to convey.

Very interesting…. Yes there are a number of countries within Africa that misappropriate funds and are corrupt. After Colonialism and foreign occupation many African countries didn’t know how to handle profiteers and holding their government responsible. … Sounds familiar?

Sorta like our country. Profiteers and greedy politicians making poor decisions for personal gain. As the EU continues to lend us money… A large percentage of the borrowed money goes pay the salaries of current politicians and fund the pensions of the folks that got us in this mess.

So I ask you… How is Africa different than Irelands corruption and bad goverment guidance?

Censored. .. I always give folks the benefit of doubt. Jealousy, ignorance and fear can cause the most intelligent a lapse in judgment. So the best to Susanna.

Wish i could drop into African countries and dictate the terms of their country with the weapon of “racism card” if anyone dared to disagree with me,… SUCH BULLSHIT!

Joey Potatoes. .. What are trying to say? Spit it out? I don’t understand?

Many did not overborrow, what changed was their taxes and if lucky no change in their wages for five years so far…

I will feel sorry for you when your taxes will be used to rehouse these people.

Oh wait, I wont……

Trolling is supposed to involve at least an attempt at wit.

@ Joohn, I see that you work in the Central Bank of Ireland.