Good news Palestine welcome to the world

Exactly, anyone who criticizes a state that exhibits complete disregard for international law and human rights is an anti-semite, it is wearing thin and is clearly not true, sadly it is still the dominant position in the U.S. whereby members of congress are required to sign a declaration of unequivocal support for Israel or face being labeled as a bigoted anti semite to their constituents. No other country on Earth could exert such influence or interference in U.S. politics. There are many jewish people who are of sufficient character and self respect to acknowledge the fundamental inequity of Israel’s policy and they are labeled as “self loathing jews”, I hope this will bring the palestinians towards diplomatic means of self determination and away from the utterly futile support for islamic terrorism.

If I were American I would be very ashamed of the position they exert on the legitimate self determination of the Palestinians before the UN, its indefensible and exposes another example of the charade that is their foreign policy. When will the average american realise the price of their unilateral support for Israel. I want to see an independent, peaceful and prosperous Israel but if the U.S. was a real friend and not a convenient supporter out of it’s own domestic politics then like a good friend it might acknowledge the hard truths, Israel either acts like a democracy and respects the fundamental human rights of Palestinians and deals with democratic consequences or it continues as an apartheid state masquerading (with little credibility in the eyes of the vast majority of the world and their so called “friends”) as a perenial victim of Palestinian aggression.

“Anti-Semitic attitudes are increasingly being challenged – and the most insidious form of anti-Semitism is the systematic attempt to impose a standard to judge Israel which is not used to judge any other country.”

Take a bow, Councillor Richard Humphreys: http://richardhumphreys.blogspot.ie/2012/11/israels-right-to-defend-itself-must-be.html

Of course, it’s clearly totally unfair and anti-Semitic to attempt to hold Israel to the standard of the Geneva Conventions in their treatment of Palestinian civilians. Clearly.

It is very refreshing to read the comments on the NY times article on this story, the majority are not supportive of the U.S. vote against Palestinians right to self determination before the U.N. I hope that eventually the reality of what is going on is equally clear to the majority of Americans. A safe and prosperous Israel is not mutually exclusive to the human rights and democratic equality of the Palestinians. I hope the U.S. govt soon realizes that its position is not in accordance with the will of its informed citizens.

Econ, I she with a lot of what you comment, but the two countries, Israel and Palestine should be both entitled to exactly the same aspirations… Totally independent, secure and with prosperous aspirations. Until that happens, S are never going to have peace there. Israel cannot and should not be putting down preconditions on who would control Palestinian borders, etc.

Peace deal being Palestine wiped from maps and memories and USA, as good as it is in some ways, having a watch out in a ‘treacherous’ region!

Agreed Kevin. They keep making that point but suspiciously never elaborate adequately on how that might be the case. What I love about this result is that, even though it may be symbolic, it sends a very clear message about the world’s feelings on the matter. In other words, America and Israel condemned the bid in the strongest possible terms, and yet it won by an Overwhelming margin. The power-base is eroding somewhat, great news.

I think it’s because they many be able to take Israel to the ICC.
Just read this on Reuters;
“The assembly approved the upgrade despite threats by the United States and Israel to punish the Palestinians by withholding funds for the West Bank government. U.N. envoys said Israel might avoid harsh retaliation as long as the Palestinians did not seek to join the International Criminal Court.”

I love the way they’re saying “we might not be so harsh on you if you don’t seek justice”. Doesn’t sound like a bully’s threat at all does it?

Absolutely ridiculous that the one mechanism I can imagine actually helping resolve this situation is also the one that’s most worrying the US / Israel.

Having said that, I can see Abbas having some problems pushing his own side to go in, considering that there are plenty who have reason to be nervous, as much as the Israelis.

I think Hamas would have their own problems with the ICC.

That was kinda my point. It would be good to weed out the nutters on both sides and bring in fresh leadership who’ll know that they can’t attack and kill civilians without there being consequences. Say that’ll be a while yet in coming. Although it might just suit Abbas …

That would be an ideal outcome alright. I’m sure most of the people just want to live their lives in peace. Sort out the extremists on both sides and peace might just be possible.

@Kevin

I think its that Washington still sees peace in its 19th century Manifest Destiny terms of the peace of the Commanche grave.

Reduce the population sufficiently by whatever means are expedient to ensure we can manage the residual reservations.
First comes the psychological denial of their right to exist as a visible presence.

Hopefully Hamas/Hizbollah might now move away from their ambitions to murder the entire population of Isreal & start to negotiate a 2 state solution, which is surely what all reasonable people want. Sadly though judging by some comments on here, the complete destruction of Isreal & the death of every Jew there is the only solution some people want.

its been a long time since any progress has been made in the region.

Its pretty clear that Israel are happy with the way things are; hence their multiple attempts to block this motion.

Considering that they very clearly stated that they would make life worse for all in Gaza if this happened……..let’s watch them try….

the world is sick of their lies and they know it……….

I’ve read all comments until this point and have not read any such comment.

Your comment should’nt be deleted Stephen, it’s the truth and if the truth hurts some people then tough!

They’re both terrorist nations.

Isreal is not a terrorist state but ones surrounded by states who want to and have tried to remove it from the map the reason paliestine is not a state is in 1948 egypt invaded and held gaza until 1968 & 1973 wars and jordan held the west bank

Yes, Israel is a terrorist nation. It uses terror and the threat of terror to suppress the Palestinians.

Fact is you are wrong, now there is a fact, maybe you should look into who us running this so called state of Palestine! the real terrorists.

It undermines peace alright, peace on Israel’s terms that is! Israel wouldn’t be nearly as arrogant if they didn’t have Uncle Sam standing behind them with a big baseball bat….

Good point. Both sides have done some pretty nasty things.

That is correct, could you even imagine the Irish state sanctioning a similar disregard for their citizens. Israel is it’s own worst enemy, the militancy they exhibit ultimately harms them, if Israel was a more enlightened state it would do a sustainable deal with the Palestinians, pay the price and move on to focus on building a better place for its future generations.

That’s not what I said joe . Declan lives in the US so unless he is illegal I would think he has a US passport at this stage .

Proves my point. Even if he has US passport, does that make him any less Irish. So much for the Diaspora. Totally disenfranchised using that logic.

Who said we should have any respect for the Israeli gov? They’ve behaved appallingly on occasion.

Yup – we voted yes.

Final Tally, 138 in favour.

8 against:

US, Israel, Panama, Palau, Canada, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Czech Republic, Micronesia

The 41 nations abstained:

Albania, Andorra, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Croatia, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Estonia, Fiji, Germany, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malawi, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Netherlands, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Poland, Korea, Moldova, Romania, Rwanda, Samoa, San Marino, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Togo, Tonga, UK, Vanuatu.

Disappointed in Canada, I thought they were better than that.

Why did Germany abstain?

“Germany will abstain in today’s vote in the UN General Assembly on upgrading the Palestinian Authority’s status from observer entity to observer state.

This was not a decision we took lightly. Germany, too, supports the creation of a Palestinian state. In recent years we have worked towards this end in many different ways, particularly by providing comprehensive support for the establishment of the Palestinian Authority’s government structures. As a result, visible progress has been made in a number of areas.

However, the decisive steps towards genuine statehood can only be taken if Israelis and Palestinians engage in negotiations.

We believe there is reason to doubt whether the Palestinians’ move today will advance the peace process at the present time. We fear that it might rather lead to a further hardening of positions.

The German Government expressly welcomes the fact that the present draft resolution emphatically backs a two state solution, thus recognizing Israel’s right to exist.

Germany will do its utmost to support all efforts aimed at paving the way for a genuine negotiation process. This can only be achieved with the necessary political will on both sides and the international community’s active commitment.”

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Infoservice/Presse/Meldungen/2012/121129-BM_Enthaltung.html

Gilmore is good for something

Was kinda being sarcastic

I’m a literal-minded man, tribune Gracchus.

Germany abstained for obvious reasons, considering the fact that the dominant members of their previous generations attempted to exterminate all Jews, off the face of the world, they were wise to stay out of it. No matter what Israel may be legitimately responsible for, one can never fail to acknowledge how it pails into insignificance when compared to what the Germans did to the Jews with a degree of complicity from many other Euro nations. The U.K and Australia is an interesting one though.

seriously Germany? ISRAEL’S right to exist? What about the Palestinian’s right not to be forced from their homes, the Israeli “settlements” in Palestinian territory, the systematic erosion of Palestine’s borders? WHAT ABOUT PALESTINE’S RIGHT TO EXIST

That took longer than I thought to get Godwinned. Nicely played sir!

Thanks for sharing that with us Tommii, I hope life has returned to normal for you in the last 25 years just as I have the same hope for the Palestinian and Israeli citizens.

@ economicopoly I live in Australia and Julia gillard is so far up America’s arse all you can see is her toes that’s why they abstained , it was that or vote against it .

Indeed. Hamas’ devotion to democracy is widely applauded.

Ah, now there in nutshell is the insidious nature of this debate and other current issues. “Unless you agree with me, you’re not really Irish, are you”?

So it’s ok for Israel to slaughter women and children joe is it .

Is it okay then for Palestinians to continue to lob rockets and innocent Israeli civilians? I suppose murdering and blowing up innocent pregnant Israeli women and murdering their children in their sleep with knives is perfectly okay if your an Egyptian squatting in Israel, but if you are Israeli (which could be Christian Jewish or Muslim btw) it is perfectly okay to die. Hypocrites, the lot of you. We Irish never planted our weaponry against the British behind our women and children John. All these arguments about the Palestinians being some great freedom fighters are bollocks. The kill their own for political gain all the time, as we saw just a week ago in full video them dragging people behind motorcycles. Palestinians are nothing like the Irish, ever. The actual Bedouin and Berbers who are natural of Israel are AGAINST a Palestinian state, so stuff it.

That’s nice Peter. You desire the murder of 6million people, men, women & children?????? That’s what that slogan often chanted by Palestinian supporters in Ireland calls for. That kind of talk isn’t driven by support of Palestinians but by hatred of Jews.

Can’t you read Reginald?
He said Free so stop trying to twist his words around nobody buys that anymore.

Thomas, and of the millions of Jews displaced from Arab lands in 1948? I guess they get the shaft then. . .

By a tiny majority, or perhaps I’m wrong.

Yes and so now if they continue to launch rockets into Israel it is fair game to declare a war against their state. Good show!’ They can also now end all aid to the state of palestine.

Wow. Mel, a post with facts. That’s not allowed on The Journal.

US, Israel, Panama, Palau, Canada, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Czech Republic, Micronesia

The US voted the same way as Isreal, there’s a turn up for the books

Palau, Nauru, the Marshall Islands?? What did they get paid to vote no?

Good to see the Palestinians getting this one through. In case anyone is curious about George L Rockwell http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/25/newsid_3031000/3031928.stm1967: ‘American Hitler’ shot dead
The leader of the American Nazi party, George Lincoln Rockwell, has been shot and killed by a sniper at a shopping centre in Arlington, Virginia.

They are nothing alike and it is an insult to MY ANCESTORS to say they are.

Ariela you are clearly not too clued in on your ancestors. Even the nationalist and unionist factions in the north recognise the parallel, with nationalists (indigenous people ousted for someone else’s Lebensraum and discriminated against in their own country, it’s often called irelandisation by the way) often flying the Palestinian flag and unionist (settlers) the Israeli.

Hooray!

People can no longer think for themselves and many like to latch on to any cause going, especially when its anti-establishment in any way. Makes them feel like they’ve achieved something.

Bullsh!t.

The pro Israeli nutjobs like to trot that one out “only supporting them because it’s trendy”. Nope, only supporting them because they’ve been starved, shot, bombed and brutalised for fifty years at this stage, and they deserve better. There’s clearly a lot of sympathy for Palestine, and rightly so.

None of which translates into support for Abbas / Hamas / Fatah / Islamic Jihad, but anything that makes it more difficult for Israel (or the aforementioned, for that matter) to inflict suffering on the civilian population has to be welcome, and I think this move will help.

I once knew a fella who said to me: “People can no longer think for themselves and many like to latch on to any cause going, especially when its anti-establishment in any way. Makes them feel like they’ve achieved something.” and I live by that motto, til the day I die.

Are you calling me a pro-Israeli nut job because I believe that a lot of the people who comment here are mindless morons? That’s a bit much don’t ya think?

Nope, not saying that you’re one of them, but there are such people out there … who are notably quiet tonight, for some reason.

Although fair play for following up “I believe that a lot of the people who comment here are mindless morons” with “that’s a bit much”, that’s some nice work. This, however:

“People can no longer think for themselves and many like to latch on to any cause going, especially when its anti-establishment in any way. Makes them feel like they’ve achieved something.”

is so very, very confused. For one thing, if people weren’t thinking for themselves, they’d surely run with the establishment position. That …. kinda follows.

Thing is, seems to me that it’s more the Israel lobby who tend to regurgitate the same old copypasta and hackneyed arguments – if you don’t believe me, try a game of Israel Apologist Bingo the next time there’s an influx of them on a thread:

http://i.imgur.com/NCE9C.jpg

I hasten to add, though, that not everyone who supports Israel is part of the Israel lobby, or a nutjob. By all means, have a look at the situation and make your own mind up – if it still ends up that you wanna be a contrarian and go against the flow for the hell of it, then have at.

Just don’t think that other people commenting haven’t done the same, because they may not reach the same conclusions that you do..

I take your point. But I direct your attention to your post above which lists the nations who voted for and against. So far 18 people have disliked the basic factual info you provided. Evidence of moronic behaviour.

Sound, I’m not trying to be a smart arse or anything, just making a point.

To be honest, I don’t pay much attention to the thumbometer anyway, but I can’t help but the feeling notice that there are maybe 15-20 people who post regularly on Israel/Palestine threads – most of whom are conspicuous by their absence tonight – who are likely to thumb me down whatever I say, because of their perception of my views.

I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.

Voodoo … I believe most pro israelis have been blocked from the journal which is why the comments are very much one sided now. No doubt Reginald’s tower will be next to be blocked. As for me .. Everyone knew this wud be passwd, that iteland would vote tes & that the us wud vote no so no need for me to comment on the article. Arguments about Israel v Palestine rather than people (not necessarily you) making valuable suggestions about HOW a 2 state solution can come about are just a waste of time because the educated few on both sides will never agree on the history and the uneducated on both sides just green or red thumb or post stupid slogans.

All of which is fair enough – I’m personally clear that the ICC, combined with meaningful negotiations, would be the best route forward, although neither side seems much interested in the former approach, for obvious reasons.

But just on the bans, I hate to play teacher’s pet here, but …. in my opinion many, if not all of them were deserved. A site like this can’t become a soapbox for a particular ideological viewpoint, in particular when groups are flooding the comments on an organised basis.

Barry Williams, when he was here, was extremely aggressive, had a nasty habit of shouting people down and was very quick to turn to personal insults when his stock Hasbara arguments were rebutted. I’ve seen other recent instances of virulent Islamophobia from posters who, in a previous breath were decrying anti-Semitism, as well as hysterical, and laughably unfounded, accusations of bias against this site, bordering on personal abuse of the site staff.

From where I see it, posters who are reasonable have no real problems, but there’s a wingnut fringe to some of the pro Israel groups that’s equally objectionable to the “drive all the Jews into the sea” nutters, who I note don’t seem to be posting here much any more, either:

http://twitpic.com/bgycqb
http://twitpic.com/bgyahb

U are taking de piss here obviously, this isn’t really one of those stories u can throw in a take de piss comment on buddy

I am brave enough to show my face Sean!!! so no its not a piss take and why should it be….You think everyone has to agree with you, I support Israel and am not afraid to say so.

Fck me he’s serious, “give them a reason to think they are a state”

No mate, just never bothered uploading a picture. I have no problem with people supporting either sides but saying that they cannot be considered to have their own state is going a bit far

Palestine is ruled by a terrorist group whose stated aims include the destruction of Israel. They are both as bad as each other.

Well Israel has almost destroyed their state.. I get the impression that Israel consider giving back any land at all to be “destruction of Israel”.. They won’t even accept the precondition of freezing expansion for goodness sake!

Like I said, they are both as bad as each other

Well ok but generally when people are discriminated against and their lands taken from them, you will see that it is common for those people to turn to extreme tactics. We have seen that in our own country and those extreme policies is what gain us our independence, also happened in Northern Ireland over the past few decades.

But to say that the Palestinian’s shouldn’t be allowed to THINK about having their own state is fairly bigoted remark. But I guess I would not expect to much more from someone who supports such a greedy nation.

Terrorism is only a word that distinguishes between small and big armed groups. If you are massive Army no matter what heinous acts you carry out your never called a terrorist. I don’t believe in religious conflict as a reason for war but I do think illegal occupation is fair enough.

So you’re saying Israel is not a terrorist nation Niall? Going by your own definition.

Israel exists only because the British forced the Palestinians to allow them settle there in the 50s. Since then the Israelis have been taking over what’s left of Palestine. I’m not calling Palestine the poor little victim here, but Israel are effectively taking over Palestine and that is just wrong. I also believe (and this is just my personal opinion) Israel have been playing the Holocaust victim card for far too long. Just because they were decimated and tortured in the past does not give them the right to play tyrant now

Broderick — You are a moral disgrace.

You are right John. Well that’s all fine and dandy then. Let them have non member state status. Let them be a state. Then if they launch anymore rockets, Israel can declare war on their state and be done with it. I hope Israel has the common sense to bring an
end to the millions of aid they send them every month as well. Screw it! They want to be a state let them suck off the teat of the UN and the WMF.

Brave man, I agree, we will be shot down and abused because we believe Israel have a right to the land that is rightfully there’s, I will be called a Jew lover!!! and so what I am a people lover, I can’t stand to see death on any side…but to give rights to something that’s not yours is only leading to trouble.

Nah, just both of yisser kids will be embarrassed is all

How is is rightfully theirs? I’m not -ad you put it – shooting you down, I’m just genuinely intrigued as to how you came to that conclusion

Well John, by your logic, the U.S.A. should have a Sioux or Pawnee President, aborigines should be interviewing white caucasian males on Border Patrol and we should all have the pick of Danish, Swedish, Norwegian passports on account of the Vikings, sounds daft doesn’t it?

*as

Who mentioned God!!!!!

So John could you please tell us why you think the land rightfully belongs to Israel. I’d really genuinely like to know

How would you feel if one day in your childhood some army guys and some bulldozers showed up at your house. Told you you were being evicted to make way for the people who’s ancestors lived there a few hundred years ago. They wiped out your whole village, herded you all into a tiny estate, killed your parents, and put you on a “diet”. Denied you the right to leave?

Half the population of Gaza are children, many of whom orphans. They can’t even have a school room because Israel blocks construction supplies from coming in, in case they’re used as weapons (and Israel bombed the schools, and hospitals.. Maybe the guys who see themselves as freedom fighters but are branded terrorists by the worlds biggest hypocrites based themselves in hospital in the vain hope that a civilised nation wouldn’t bomb a hospital? I mean, why would anyone bomb a hospital?)

If you want to breed radicalism, that’s a sure fire way of doing it.. If Israel were serious about peace they wouldn’t have kept expanding and they wouldn’t have put the people of Gaza on a “diet”.. If the people didn’t feel oppressed, they would feel no need to fight.

The state of Israel is the state, it has been split by war for century’s just like our own land, it was split to keep some form of peace! you see where that lead us!! The Palestine state as “you call it” is run by terrorists who are only hell bent on the destruction of Israel even at the sake of thier own people, you have to hear me here! I hate to see death on either side, but to keep giving support to terrorist groups is only aiding there resolve to keep fighting..and as I said where did that get Ireland !!!! 30 odd years of blood shed, I make a comment here but that’s all it is, I really don’t think my opinion will matter much in the whole scheme of things, but will not just agree for the sake consensus but on what I believe. I hope that has answered some of your questions. Peace

” we believe Israel have a right to the land that is rightfully there’s”

Fair enough, John. But if Israel does, then why do the Palestinians not?

John, those views, in time, will be equal to those who supported the apartheid regime in South Africa, yes there was no war in terms of rockets and F-16′s, I admit that, but history will show that genocide has occurred in the West Bank and more specifically Gaza, there are 1.5m people, living in Gaza, across 6 miles, which is the equivalent distance from Dublin Airport to Parnell Street, with no guarantee of electricity, water or sanitation, if the Israeli’s lived in equal destitution, I would condemn both sides equally

We heard nothing of the bombs being sent into Israel “for nearly four weeks by the way” Then Israel defended its self!! As soon as they did it was all over the news.. biased or what

John, Hamas should not be firing rockets into Israel, When the IRA had a sustained campaign of bombing in the UK in the 70′s and 80′s, the UK didn’t retaliate by bombing Irish ports, urban centres, and hospitals

@ John Broderick
you say – “The Palestine state as “you call it” is run by terrorists”

i say – the terrorists are the guys with the big bombs
they have the most efficient weaponry ever designed for the massacering of human being at their disposal.
they have been terrorising the people of Gaza for years.
they massacred c. 1,400 men, women & children, in a few weeks, a few weeks ago,
& almost 200 in a few days, a week or two ago

Read your history, Ellen. Jews were returning to Israel/Palestine since the 19th c. Esp. after pogroms in E Europe. Zionism did not begin in the 1950s.

our official government policy is neutrality, however you can be damn sure that we have our own opinions

Ireland on paper is a neutral country…in practice we wouldn’t be as we can’t defend our neutrality on our own. We would need NATO/EU support.

of course, we can’t defend our country on our own
that’s why aour six northeastern counties, are still under British rule.

Hasbara and pinkwashing, anyone? Anyone???

Oh dear.

Doesn’t seem that Israel is such a paradise for Arabs, really:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/11/23/what_does_it_feel_like_to_be_an_israeli_arab.html

Also, the British didn’t conduct a consistent campaign of land-grabs here, nor, for all their faults, did they resort to starvation tactics, remember “putting the Palestinians on a diet”?

Not fooling anyone, dear.

Painting the IRA in a positive light in an attempt to back up an argument for the systematic degradation, murder and starvation of a people is a pretty bad way to start. Makes you look pro-terrorism. Maybe try a different tactic that doesn’t attempt to make a gang of murdering thugs look like simple freedom fighters. Just a suggestion.

Ya’ll are the ones sprouting this freedom fighter crap as justification for Palestinians Lobbing Missiles at Israelis. I was just pointing out the rank idiocy
in all of that nonsense. So again, stuff it.

VOOdoo, you really do not know Irish History do you! What the hell do you call the land grabs of the Queen in our lands in the south then hm? Peaceful takeover>??? MY FAMILY talk to the hand, cause you are obviously NOT Irish.

OH and WTF do you call the potato famine then??? Where the heck was the food again???? The Israelis cart in TRUCKS of food daily to the Palestinians. You really have NO CLUE>

Fair point, I suppose. Although, y’know, the IRA only came into existence maybe 300 years after the plantations and 60 or so years after the famine. Resistance movements of the time were pretty much in the territory of halberds and swords – if there had been a ready source of rockets available, I’m sure they’d have been used.

But thank you for the history lesson.

Ireland voted yes.

The Irish government voted Yes !

Sorry, stupid mistake on my part. I should read the article better the next time. Glad that the motion passed though!