The Palestinians are either treated as Israeli citizens with equal participation in the Israeli “democracy” or they have a right to sovereignty and self determination. The U.S. and Israel are putting a bar on an obvious democratic mandate that the Palestinians have to self determination, the good news is Palestinians have so much more to achieve through international political engagement then firing imported rockets at the citizens of Goliath military state. Hopefully UN support will lead a Palestinians out of support of terrorism and towards non violent actions. The fact that the U.S. and Israel are advising them not to do it is clearly sufficient grounds to do it considering the complete lack of respect that either the U.S. or Israel has ever shown to them. The Idea that the U.S. or Israel can lecture the Palestinians on what is best for them is farcical. I hope they can achieve sovereignty, self determination and dignity for their people through the establishment of an internationally recognised democratic state, the U.S. will not be judged well by history in seeking to prevent such a process. I am confident that privately alot of U.S. politicians feel less than proud of their involvement in this charade.

Economicoply, I think you nailed it in one go there, good post. The Palestinians will never be given equal citizenship status in Israel, it is set up as a Jewish state and nothing else will be acceptable to the Israelis; Ze’ev Jabotinsky once went as far as saying that the Arab minority would be on an equal footing with its Jewish counterpart…as long as it remains firmly in the minority!. Furthermore, the ideals of Theodore Herzl et al who began the whole movement are still very much alive today: Israel is to expand and take as much land as it can by whatever means necessary, at whatever cost to the Arabs or anyone else. Helps when you have the backing of the U.S. Agree with you 100% that the UN is by far the better route than firing rockets, that’s why Israel and the U.S. are so against it – it’s not as easy to condemn democracy!

Absolutely!! the bottom line is that no matter what the Palestinians do the US/Israel alliance will condemn it. The last thing Israel wants is peace – if that happens the US won’t provide money for their nuclear weapons program, and they won’t be able to continue stealing Palestinian land using “terrorist” activities as a cover. I hope that both the Palestinians & Israelis manage to bring those responsible for crimes against Humanity to the ICC. But that won’t be comfortable for the US. The rule of law and the writing of history is normally for the victor – but this war isn’t over yet.

Yes, it means it will have non-voting observer status. Switzerland used to have a similar arrangement too but became full members in 2002.

This was being blocked by the US!? The ‘land of the free’… ‘the custodian of world democracy’ !?? Tut

M J Rosenberg, former AIPIC employee:

In other words, Israel would have to accede to the demand for Palestinian rights or be “painted by former friends as an apartheid state.”

Except that would never happen. Israel will never voluntarily give Palestinians democratic rights and it does not have to because U.S. policy, dictated by AIPAC, will never hold Israel to the rules it applies every where else. If Israel absorbs all the territories and denies the people who live there voting rights, 90% of Congress will support that position. So would President Obama. So would Al Franken, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Elizabeth Warren. Of course the Republicans would too. In fact, I have written the statement liberal Democrats would use in defending Israel’s position of not permitting Palestinians to exercise their rights.

[i]We firmly reject the United Nations call on Israel to extend the vote to Israel’s five million Palestinian citizens. We would remind the United Nations that for Israel to grant voting rights to this group would end Israel’s standing as the world’s only Jewish democracy. Democracy is an elastic concept. What applies to Brazil or Germany or even the United States does not necessarily apply to Israel, located as it is in a very dangerous neighborhood. If nothing else, the Holocaust taught us that. We also reject calls to link aid to Israel to its compliance with the United Nations resolution calling on Israel to grant voting rights. We oppose that idea just as we applaud our government’s use of the veto to block its passage. No, we will stand with the people of democratic Israel as it continues its struggle for peace and democracy for all.[/i]

Comparisons between Irish republicanism & Hamas / Hizbollah are nonsensical. Neither the Old IRA or the Provo IRA had the goal of the complete destruction of Britain or the eradication of every Protestant in Ireland. These are the goals of Islamic groups in Palestine. Hopefully, this might encourage them to trade in their bombs for the ballot box as happened here & both Israelis & Palestinians can look forward to a peaceful coexistence.

Hamas and other radical groups ? Do you not have to become “radical” as the media spin it or is it just fighting for the place you live when your country is being taken over mile by mile ?
Ireland is less than 100 years old as a country won freedom by “radicals” or “terroists” as they would be called nowadays… the victor writes the history

It’s a clever rouse.. They say Palestinians want to destroy Israel – because to them Israel covers both Israeli and Palestinian territory.. To have to sacrifice any of that land = destruction..

They’re not technically destroying the Palestinian state as they have done and continue to do everything in their power to ensure Palestine never gets recognised..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/29/us-palestinians-statehood-idUSBRE8AR0EG20121129

Palestine recognised as as state !

From that report, I find the following interesting;
“The assembly approved the upgrade despite threats by the United States and Israel to punish the Palestinians by withholding funds for the West Bank government. U.N. envoys said Israel might avoid harsh retaliation as long as the Palestinians did not seek to join the International Criminal Court.”

They might avoid harsh retaliation if the Palestinians do not seek to bring them to justice.. Sounds like the school yard bully saying “I won’t kill you if you don’t tell the teacher”..

It will still piss the Israeli’s off though!

It might but a lot of their protests are just bluster. To be honest, because this is just a legal/diplomatic game, it only serves to act as a distraction for practical measures and the real need for a deal that would benefit ordinary Palestinians and Israelis.

It could even be argued that both sides will be happy with this outcome. From a Palestinian perspective, they ‘win’ the vote and achieve observer status – no real impact but politically good for Abbas as it makes him and Fatah seem relevant. And as far as the Israelis are concerned, the Palestinians sought member state status last year and didn’t get it and now are settling for ‘observer status’ i.e. much less than what they looked for last year.

Should be streamed here, not sure what time though:
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/24-hour-live-and-pre-recorded-programming/1571671822001

I just read this on the link you provided Larry . ” god will return all of the land he gave . It surprises many people to learn that it included all of present day Israel ( including gaza and the west bank ) all of Lebanon all of Jordan all of Syria , half of Iraq , a large piece of northern Saudi Arabia and a large piece of eastern Egypt .some biblical scholars also claim that it included parts of southern turkey ”
Unbelievable , what hope do the Palestinians have when this is what they are up against . Other comments are looking for the complete distraction of the area . Scary stuff .

Destruction

Good post Derek

The same responsibility that their neighbouring sovereign state shows while killing hundreds of innocent children and women over the past few years???

Stephen, are you on glue???
I know this might sound simplistic/callous, but the kill ratio between Israel and those whose land they besiege and illegally settle their people on is consistently 25-30 to 1. Yet you speak of Palestinian responsibility????
Please.

It’s a little like Ireland and the free state of 1926. One step on the road to sovereignty

It would mean that, legally, Palestine would be an internationally recognized state. Any incursion into Palestinian territory by Israel (like the current plantations going on) will be a violation of a sovereign state’s territory and by definition an act of war. That’s what has Israel worried.

Sorry, my last comment was meant as a reply to Michael Ryan.