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Dublin: 8 °C Friday 24 May, 2013

Column: How can the polls on abortion in Ireland differ so much?

The most recent poll on abortion said two-thirds of Irish people want legal protection of the unborn, but another poll showed the majority in favour of legalised abortions in certain circumstances, so which is it, asks Eoin O’Malley.

Eoin O'Malley

A POLL RELEASED this week by the Pro-Life Campaign seeks to ‘challenge the notion that there is broad middle ground support for abortion in Ireland.’ This polls claims to show that two-thirds of Irish people want ‘legal protection of the unborn’ and suggests that this means Irish people are against legalised abortions.

This should surprise some as it follows on from a IpsosMRBI poll in the Irish Times recently which showed a substantial majority in favour of legalised abortions in a variety of circumstances.

So what’s happening? Does this show that you can get a poll to say anything you want as this clip from Yes, Prime Minister suggests? Or is the polling methodology of companies so flawed that we get results that can fluctuate wildly even when the underlying opinions in society are reasonably stable?

Polling

Well it’s not the latter. Opinion polls results on voting, though sometimes appear volatile (especially when there’s no election on the horizon and people aren’t as focussed on the question) are remarkably similar when taken at similar times. Polling companies have improved their methodologies, and while there are ongoing debates about issues such as weighting for past vote and likelihood to vote, the polling companies in question, Millward Brown and IpsosMRBI, are reputable and conform to high standards.

What is probably at issue here is the wording of the question, the interpretation of the results and the ‘context’ of the question. Sometimes we might see an advocacy ask a number of questions and pick just those that suit its position, discarding any that don’t. In general one should be suspicious of an advocacy group-sponsored polls. The questions in this case were problematic.

Abortion is a complex issue, and asking one or two complicated questions doesn’t help add clarity. People think differently about abortion in different circumstances, and so pro-choice advocates make much of questions in which as much as 90 per cent of US respondents say they favour that abortion should be legal. In fact the support is lower when circumstances are specified.

Clear and concise

So it makes sense to clearly specify the circumstances in a number of clear, concise questions. This is what the Irish Times poll did – though the health question was probably vaguer than it should have been and was, I think, misinterpreted by some to mean suicide. What were the Pro-Life campaign’s questions?

In current medical practice in Ireland, the doctor treats the expectant mother and her baby as two patients and does his/her best to safeguard both in a crisis situation. Do you consider that this practice should be protected and safeguarded by law or not?

Result: 66 per cent answered Yes, 15 per cent No, 19 per cent No Opinion. There are a number of problems with this question. It’s pretty long, which may not be a major problem, though it’s usually best avoid long questions, especially abstract ones. One might also object to the use of the word ‘baby’ instead of foetus, but again, I’d let them pass on this. A more serious problem is that it describes a situation which it says is the status quo position in Ireland, though many would take issue with that. So if asked ‘are you in favour of the current social welfare system which protects the most vulnerable in society?’, what is one’s answer to be. Yes, but it doesn’t. That’s not an option.

Framing the question

The question is framed to offer everything desirable, and ask the respondent would you like to retain it? ‘Yes,of course, but…’ It’s perhaps surprising that only 66 per cent answered yes. Another problem is that it oversimplifies the situation. It doesn’t ask difficult choices of the respondent. Motherhood and apple pie? Of course. But you can’t always have both. The rights of the two come into conflict and whose rights take precedence is precisely the issue Irish society has to grapple with. The second question is arguably worse.

Are you in favour of, or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother’s life in accordance with Irish medical ethics?

Result: 63 per cent answered Yes, 19 per cent No, 18 per cent No Opinion. It has the same problems we saw in the first question, but the added problem that it asks questions on what are two dimensions. So the first half asks about the constitutional prohibition on abortion (which since X case is not really in place) and the desire to save a mother’s life – which is also moot). Which part are the respondents saying yes to? The two issues should be separated out.

Pro-life

The Pro-Life campaign say that they were providing ‘context’ that was lacking in the Irish Times questions. They say that ‘important ethical distinctions are clarified for the benefit of respondents’. But one might say that the context was misleading, and the ethical distinctions were muddied.

A further problem is with the interpretation. The Pro-Life campaigns press release, which was heavily drawn on in reports in the Irish Independent and Irish Times, a ‘sizeable majority support legal protection of the unborn’. This is true, but it doesn’t, as they suggest, contradict the findings of the Irish Times poll. Favouring the legal protection of the unborn doesn’t mean one is against abortion – it just suggests that Irish people want rules governing abortion.

The Irish Times poll asked more questions, more simply and more directly on the nuances in the debate is one I’d use if I wanted to know what Irish people think about this issue.

Dr Eoin O’Malley teaches Irish politics at Dublin City University. He has written on the subject of small parties in government for a new book on minor parties in Ireland. He occasionally tweets as @AnMailleach. To read more articles by Eoin for TheJournal.ie click here.

Read: Pro Life opinion poll shows 3 in 4 are against abortion>

Column: Abortion is too important an issue for disrespectful debate>

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Comments (154 Comments)

  • Has anyone here ever participated in an opinion poll?

    Reply
  • You can pharse a question to get any answer u want –
    ——–and precede it with a series of questions that leave one with no option but to give the answer that the questioner wants .

    Reply
  • A recent survey showed that 5 out of 4 people don’t even understand statistics

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  • Polls are all well and good. They have a curiosity value but do not enlighten us.

    Ultimately each pregnant woman will decide according to her own circumstances, thoughts, heart and conscience about what is inherently and intrinsically her own decision unless she is too ill, too poor or too dependent to leave Ireland.

    It is not for me, or for you for that matter, to decide this issue for others in individual cases. The pregnant woman has the right to decide, she will decide conscientiously, responsibly and according to needs. thankfully that is reality.

    The Roman Catholic Church can arrest the development of this country but the female pregnant citizens of this country can vote with their feet and no pro-life zealot can do anything about this.

    Reply
  • I find the questions asked in this survey quite telling – they’re awful. Not their content but how they are worded. They are poorly phrased and contain to much information for a question that is supposed to have a yes/no answer. I mean how could a question that beings ‘Are you in favour of, or opposed too’ possible be answered by yes or no. I could be saying Yes; I’m in favour of….. or Yes I’m opposed too……

    I write questions for assessments as part of my job and if I wrote ambiguous questions like the ones in this survey; people would complain and they would be right to.

    It seems to me that these questions were purposely written to give a preconceived and biased result i.e. Irish people don’t support abortion.

    Reply
  • I came across a poll a while back by the Pro Life Campaign that claimed the majority of people that took part in it were against legalised abortion. The question that was put too people was something along the lines of ‘are you opposed to abortion and subsequent medical tests on the fetus?’

    I tried to explain to them that obviously the majority of people would react negatively to this question given the second part of it. They didn’t agree with me. I don’t think I have seen one poll result that you could truly call independent (I’m not counting places like The Journal here because its more than likely limited in its demographics). Personally I think these campaigns need to stop and it needs to be put to a referendum on full abortion once and for all, AFTER the government legislate for the X-Case.

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    • Val just wondering was that all in the same question or was it two questions Im not showing my preference in this topic cause it has no bearing on the question but if it was all one question this question is ethically incorrect as it is making the participant respond to their choice and not giving the participant a choice based on the wording so are showing preference for their cause without consideration so this survey is flawed and not appropriate and the results are not accurate perception on the publics opinion and have no weight behind it and can be easily challenged

      Reply
    • Barry 22/02/13 #

      fully agree Val,

      Leave it to the people to vote, instead of the TD’s..

      As we can see from the Pro-Life crowd they are already trying to create fear for TD’s by saying they won’t be voted for again, this is simply another form of lobbying and its only the start.

      The pro-life brigade are extremely well funded so you better believe that they’ll throw everything they got at the government in order to try get TD’s to vote in-line with their agenda.

      Reply
    • David , could you punctuate that paragraph ,please, and we can have another stab at what you are saying [very lucidly i'm sure].

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    • It was all the one question David. The point I was trying to make was, no matter whether these polls are carried out by pro-life or pro-choice groups, they will always phrase the question in such a way that the answer will be favourable to their aims. It became pretty clear to me that was the case when I saw they question they put to people and they’re response to my questioning of it.

      Reply
    • Forgot your question mark there Rory…

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    • Sorry Rory I’m on this on my phone in a nutshell what I’m saying is that the pro life are making those answer the survey the way they want and from a research point of view is unethical and that the result are not justified as the results represent the pro life opinions only

      Reply
  • Because one is bullsh*t….

    Reply
    • Barry 22/02/13 #

      Couldn’t agree more, easy get the results when you want when you ask the people you want at “random” and pose the questions in ways to suit your agenda.

      Reply
    • As a political commentator, what qualifies Eoin O’Malley to comment on polling practices? A Marketer or Statistician would have something authoritative to add, I’m sure. But a political commentator? The timing of this article is also very strange. Is this a deliberate attempt to discredit the pro-life poll. Is the Journal now disregarding its pretence of objectivity on this subject and actively entering the debate? I ask because while questions can certainly be skewed to illicit the required answer, this is as true of research commissioned by a Newspaper as it is from any lobby group. Publishing this comment piece on the same day as the pro- life research without question casts aspersions on this. If not deliberate, why is no one in the Journal watching content to ensure balance?

      Reply
    • All depends on whether the Poll is Independent or Private.

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    • Liam 22/02/13 #

      @ Vincent Dolan – that sure is an interesting conspiracy theory.

      Reply
    • As a political commentator I’m sure he comments on and assesses polls quite regularly. And when one sticks out like a sore thumb I’m sure like the rest of us he wonders why that might be. As for bias. The journal regularly allows comment pieces from the pro life side (though it should be noted that this report doesn’t take a side on the abortion topic). Why just yesterday I laughed my way through a piece from the ‘Life Institute’ that suggested that FGs vote at the next election will be more dependant on their actions regarding abortion than their actions regarding the economy.

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    • @ciaran- I drive a car every day. But I have no idea how to put one together properly to make sure it works properly.

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    • Too many properly’s….

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    • And a bias doesn’t need to be flagrant to be potent….

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    • Yes but I’m sure if someone tried to sell you a car with three wheels you’d tell him where to go…

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    • My point is this: today the Journal published two articles: 1. A poll and 2. An article outlining “why that poll is skewed”. There was no article on how the recent Sunday Business Post research was obviously skewed despite the fact that the answers given were blatantly contradictory. Instead, just an article declaring that a majority were pro-abortion. Why was that?

      Reply
    • Well if you think reasoned and logical articles that are critical of your point of view are biased then perhaps you should assess if you are on the right side of the argument.

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    • @ciaran- it’s the timing of the article that infers a bias. I think the pro-life poll was definitely constructed to get the answers it got. But the same could be said of many polls that suggest widespread support for abortion in Ireland. This column should have looked at both and have been published independent of the release of a poll from one side of the other.

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    • Your point seems to be that the journal should have waited until tomorrow to cry foul on this poll… Why. If you agree that the poll is bull surely you agree that it should be debunked. Why wait. You speak a lot of sense on here Vinny, though u are a confrontational wee bugger, but you are wrong on this. This is clearly a scam being orchestrated by the pro life lobby. Best to put it to bed today than tomorrow.

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    • Actually, what I’m saying is that the Journal should have cried foul on both occasions….when the SBP poll was blatantly blinkered and today. Or on neither occasion. But by discrediting the poll from one side, you inevitably discredit their argument. A balanced article would have looked at how it happens on both sides of the aisle. Actually, that’s what the title suggested. Instead this article read like: pro-lifers twist the truth. The reality is every lobby group spins polls. An opportunity missed.

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    • ….and a confrontational wee bugger? I’m hurt. Sweet as sugar, me.

      Reply
    • well said Vincent,
      media spin is playing a huge part in this debate.
      There are more people out there, all over the country, who have ‘pro life’ views, – than the mainstream media would have us believe.

      Reply
    • He’s not commenting on the mathematics of the poll. He’s commenting on the phrasing of the question. As such, a political commentator is perfectly appropriate as a commentator on the wording and phrasing of the question.

      Also, he’s kind of correct:)

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    • @Vincent Dolan: the poll is worthless, no matter what the results, because it’s extremely badly designed. It’s generally better, when polls are designed by the professionals, not by the fanatics.

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    • It’s an excellent article by the Journal. I listened to the spin and bull by the pro life/anti women brigade and it was appealing. The truth is hurting you guys and you can’t take it. Irish people have moved on and want women to have equal rights and a safe pregnancy. And you want the same policy to continue for women that need medical help? It kills women.

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    • js1711 23/02/13 #

      How about we forget polls and opinion for a minute and look at the facts. We are exporting abortion. A huge number of women go abroad for abortion. How many of those women thought they were pro life until they were faced with an unwanted pregnancy?

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    • Actually, Gerry my point was more about journalistic integrity and balance than the rights or wrongs of abortion. However, if you want to talk about cynical spin I would suggest you look at how pro-abortionists (or pro-baby killers if I wanted to use your antagonistic tones) manipulated the death of a woman in Galway or how they routinely use tragedies like rapes to further their goal of abortion on demand for all. There’s plenty of mud to throw round on both sides. In this instance, the Journal disregarded balance and directed it against the pro-life side.

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    • @Js1711- Yes. And most men are anti- murder until they come home & find their best friend in bed with their wife. Society still doesn’t let them bludgeon the transgressor to death because its understandable.

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    • Vincent, stop trolling now, its starting to look a bit embarrassing…..

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    • @katie- you know how to spot someone on here incapable of proposing a coherent argument of their own? They accuse those they disagree with of being trolls. So you’re the one that should be embarrassed.

      Reply
  • Sorry Deirdre I’m a bit confused. How does one bring a pregnancy to an end without abortion? And thank you for your previous comment.

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  • tom 22/02/13 #

    Polls like statistics are too easily manipulated.

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  • Graham 22/02/13 #

    Sick of all this articles and arguments. At the end of the day it’s a women’s choice. It’s absolutely no one else’s business. LEGISLATE now

    Reply
  • How many pregnant women will consult the polls before making this personal decision?

    Perhaps instead of polls, we need a reality TV show, pruriently observing and commenting on the decision which is no business of mine and no business of yours.

    Reply
  • Has anyone gone onto the youth defence facebook page they do more damage to there own cause than the pro choice crowd ever could.

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    • Thats because serious people that see the termination of the unborn dont listen to that sh!te either but go ahead say the only reason people are against it is an religious one.

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    • @Terry: Believing that an embryo at any stage of development has a “life” inside it that is full of potential that is capable of being “murdered” is a religious belief. The Religious and the scientific define “life” very differently. In religion, “life” is a mystical and unique ghost that a God of humans has made a plan for and blessed into it’s meaty body at conception. In Science, life is the universal power that moves all organic matter on earth to grow, pass on genes and evolve just for the simple beauty of doing so. “Murder” is a human concept, in the grand scheme of the universe, there is no such thing. “murder” is a percieved life theft. The projected future life of a person is imagined to be stolen. But that is all in our imaginations, that’s grief. When a person who is independant, has a family, has bonds, is loved, is killed, we grieve. Don’t get me wrong, it’s very real to us in our silly little ape brains, but it’s not real at all, not to the universe.

      So, my point is, you believe you’re defending people by trying to force women through unwanted pregnancies. You believe these people have a future all laid out for them. They have a name waiting to be thought of, a personality with no developed brain in which to contain it hovering around in an invisible cloud. That when a foetus is aborted, that imagined personality is lost. You believe in something that doesn’t exist and are figthing for it at the expense of a woman with a personality and a fully developed brain which is capable of independant thought. You’re hurting real people in the defence of imaginary people.

      That is the very definition of a Religious belief, my friend.

      Reply
    • Zoe Daly 23/02/13 #

      Anna, I am a woman, – & I fully recoginise that this is not a black & white issue, of moral ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.
      But I believe that the unborn human life IS still a human being.
      That belief is intrinsic, & nothing to do with religion. It is to do with medical ethics, & human rights.
      I believe that, that tiny human being, must be to some extent, recognised & protected where possible, by our laws.
      If the concept of ‘humanity’ and the ‘equality of all human beings’ is to mean anything, in our society, then that equality must extend to the unborn child.

      Reply
    • Zoe if its your belief its not factual, many would determine that to be religous in some way.Human rights and medical ethics don’t necessarily extend to all aspects of your beliefs with regard to a foetus, especially when its at the clump of cells stage. Viability of life usually signifies a change regarding rights.

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    • Zoe, If you believe a unborn foetus is a “human being” then, that’s fine. But the very weight we give to that is disproportionate to reality. Our brains tell us that we are far more important that we actually are. Just because we imagine ourselves to be wonderful, magic souls of the earth does not make it so. The laws of the universe do not bend to our imagination. You might call it “intrinsic” but that is a loose and vague concept that is fully placed in the realms of imagination. Saying that a belief is “intrinsic” and not based in religion is a contradiction. Just because you don’t include it within organised religion does not mean that it isn’t of the same stock of human imagination. When it comes to science, and the facts of the universe, human imagination is the most false reality there is. Our personalities and the weight we give our “intrinsic feelings” is all part of our ego, a function our brains have developed in order to find our way through life, it isn’t real.

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  • Protecting the unborn and permitting abortion under certain conditions are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly logical to support both positions.

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  • Lies, damn lies, statistics etc.

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  • :P and again i say you can use statistics to show whatever you want. 89% of people know that

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  • Casey 22/02/13 #

    Remember the polls in the run-up to the 2011 Presidential election which showed David Norris at 40%?
    I just couldn’t believe he was really that high and finally he polled 6%. There was one poll where the question was phrased something like “Would you vote for David Norris, Yes or No”? – a person might answer “Yes” but not necessarily meaning they would vote for him as first choice.
    Of course the results were presented as if everyone who said yes meant “Yes, definitely, first choice”

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  • Here’s what I think. Polls are a load of balls. Simple as that

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  • The Anti Choice groups will use what ever rationale and methodoly they see fit, to get the answers they want, to the questions they pose.

    Issues surrounding abortion legislation are not at the forefront of anyones mind unless they are: anti choice; had an abortion and are having regrets; had an abortion and are feeling relieved; in need of abortion services; and/or a family memeber or friend is in need of abortion services and may need finanical help or just someone to talk too.

    We need to vote at the very least, on whether abortion should be legalised up and until 8 weeks or what ever the time frame is where a woman can take tablets to induce an abortion herself. We should be voting on a much wider range of choices but progress takes time, as does gender parity and the recognition to the right of autonomy for women regarding their own bodies and reproduction rights.

    Reply
  • Nydon 22/02/13 #

    As a “middle grounder” who can see merit in both reasonably put sides of thid argument, I’ve started to develop a bit of a system.
    Don’t pay any attention to any poll commissioned by either side.
    Disregard any written commentary after use of the word God as part of the argument.
    Disregard any commentary after the use of the word foetus as part of the argument.
    I believe that the use of these two words displays a dangerous lack of consideration of the full complex spectrum of the whole issue.
    You therefore lost me in section 3 Mr O’Malley .
    I’m sure both sides will now shoot this messenger but it’s votes like mine that will count most in the end of the day.

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  • Hear, hear

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  • This needs to go to a referendum, I don’t think the media are being unbiased or social media sites are being fair on the debate. In fact, I have never heard a fair debate on abortion. So much is left to conjecture and labelling. Looking at some people comments, all they are happy to do is slag the other side off.

    But the worst for me about abortion is now that science is developing, some people favour in destroying a child before they are born if there is any sense of a disability. This really frightens me. I have witness comments on this site on for this and I find it disgusting.

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    My mistake. Yea i can see why my comments may be repulsive. I have apologized if i hurt u. Its my opinion that women who have been hurt by abortion be given all the love and support in the world and never be judged. Women with unplanned pregnancies be shown the joy that their baby will bring them. There are a hundred more situations where abortion is considered as an option. I want women to chose life. Always chose life i say and there will be no regrets

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    • You know Deirdre, I really wish it was that simple, but it’s not.

      Pregnancy is no walk in the park, as I am sure you are aware, but when a woman wants the baby she is willing to deal with that for the promise of the baby at the end.
      This is not the way it is for everyone. Some women are told that their babies won’t survive birth, some women have been raped, some women have pre existing conditions that make pregnancy very risky for them, some women already have kids and having another will negatively impact upon her already existing kids quality of life, and that’s just a few examples – there are literally thousands more.

      No one thinks that abortion is a great thing in and of itself but sometimes it is necessary. All of us, pro choice and pro life alike would prefer to see as few happen as possible, but there will always be a need, and I for one would rather that this was done safely, here, than run the risk of the woman killing herself too with a back street abortion or unlicensed abortion pills from the Internet.. Not every woman with a crisis pregnancy can afford the trip to the UK.

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    • Agree shanti! Every woman is different and make decisions that are right at the time. Some have regrets. Some dont. Some make the choice for family reasons, some for medical.

      Having said that I myself have been terribly ill during all my pregnancies. I know that with age if I were to become pregnant again I would seriously consider a termination. Having been told by my cardiologist and my haematologist that future pregnancies could kill me its not a chance I’m willing to take. After all if I were to die I dont have the luxury of having family to support my partner on his own with our children. I would rather my children go up with me rather than without me.

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  • Abortion will never be legalized in Ireland. The liberals keep trying to shove it down our throats. No thanks

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  • I am not telling anyone what to do. Its the sensible thing to do if ur not ready for a baby. No need to put ur body and brain and emotional well being thro hell to have an abortion. Do u know abortion hurts a woman in a way u could never understand. No woman walks out of an abortion clinic relieved. Its just the start of more problems. Abortion is not the answer. Women do have a choice. Make the sensible choice. Use protection….

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    • Protection is not 100% effective Deirdre.

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    • I don’t know how you can say that no woman walks out of an abortion clinic relieved – are you inside the head of every woman who ever did?

      Obviously not, because I had an abortion, years ago and I walked out mightily relieved. It was not the start of more problems at all, it was the end of a whole pile of them. I went on to have five children and never for one moment have I regretted my decision, because it was the right one at that time and in the particular circumstances,

      I personally know several women who have had abortions which they do not regret (you do too, whether you know it or not), so I don’t think my reaction is at all untypical.

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  • Graham. Women have rights over their own bodies. I am a woman i should know. We have the right to abstain from sex or go on the pill to avoid getting pregnant. No need to murder a poor innocent baby. No one should have the “right” to do that. Its not a right. Its a wrong

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  • Thats true. Contraception not 100% effective. Neither is abortion 100% safe. No “procedure” is. There are no guarantees in life. Talk to a woman who took the easy way out and had an abortion. I know a girl who did and it has destroyed her.

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    • Abortion is not an easy way out! You make comments that are quite repulsive

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    • So because an abortion was the wrong decision for one woman no woman should have one?

      Someone once had a car crash and it ruined their life therefore no one should be allowed drive a car…

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    • Easy way out it is not! I can think of three women off the top of my head that had abortions that were quite relieved . One to cut the ties to an abusive partner.. one to end the suffering of her baby being squashed to death in her uterus and one because she wad raped. Actually I can think of plenty. It’s not for me to say another woman can’t have access to an abortion. I hope I’m never visited by that choice. My family is made and I’ve a happy life away from harsh and cruel circumstances that women face.

      Reply
  • The writer may be unaware of the rigorous testing methods used by a reputable polling company like Millward
    Brown Lansdowne. They do not accept questions that will “lead” those polled to a particular result. Like another commenter has said, his remarks can only be taken seriously when viewed in terms of politics, not marketing/polling credibility.

    Why did he not apply the same forensic dissection to the Irish Times wording? His scant remarks about that poll speak volumes.

    I have already drawn attention to issues with the presentation of the Irish Times poll. The editor was good enough to print my letter a day or so following publication of the poll.

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  • Let them have their referendem on abortion on demand because if its worded like that itll never pass. Libs are the kings of picking and choosing what suits them if the journal is a good yard stick to judge them by.
    Most of the country want it when it medically needed not on demand and im one of them.

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Ceara. Sorry to hear u been through hell. The only thing i can say to that is when i say i am pro life i genuinely mean i am pro YOUR LIFE too. Your life is as important. I hope ur children have their mother for a long long time…. I wish u health and i understand ur difficulties… Xxxx

    Reply
  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Well ceara. U are entitled to your opinion. As the persian poet Rumi says. Dont fret about people that criticize you for they are looking in the mirror.

    Reply
  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    Shanti i agree that life isnt simple and u make some valid points. But those situations are rare. Its no justification to bring in abortion. I am worried that people will just use abortion as a contraceptive. There are ways to bring a pregnancy to an end to protect a mother without the need for abortion. Doctors need to be protected too. But abortion on demand is a no no for me

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    • Agreed, abortion should be rare. But the only way to ensure that is to reduce unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
      As a means of contraception, abortion is the most unpleasant, the most expensive and the most traumatic. A woman using abortion as contraception has problems completely separate to the legislation that she will need help with. Women who do not wish to become pregnant use contraception, and if they don’t that is what we need to focus on.
      But we also can’t really sit in judgement of women who have found themselves in situations where this is the best course of action for them, because we are not them.

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    • If it’s a no no for you, great! Best of luck. It is a yes yes for me if I so choose it. Problem solved!

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Ceara b. I apologize to u if my comments hurt u in any way. I get very animated when the discussion is abortion. If u could hear the gurgling of the baby beside me you would do everything in your power to stop all women from ending the life of something so precious. Babies are a gift. And they are a joy. And they are pure love all wrapped up in a little bundle. Ceara i am sorry. I wish u well

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    • I have children and consider myself pro choice. Its not the first flipant comment you’ve made either. I do believe you labelled all us pro choice as baby murderers yesterday. Like I said….repulsive.

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  • Polls are the greatest load of smoke anyway. Yes this article is one entire smokescreen which tries to use psychology in luring people to the belief that, because a majority of sheep follow this particular way of thinking the path must be proven to be the right one.

    It’s called the “herd mentality”. It’s a mob thing in which if a majority of people is doing it then the thing they all agree on must be true and right. People are sucked in by this crap all the time.

    The secular media is always being called biased in their polls and those such as youth defence are called biased when they do one. Who cares. The fact is that life begins at the moment of conception. Even the pro abortionist torturer performing the execution of a child knows this. But the constant polling by the media is there only as smokescreen to cover what it really is people should be following, which is facts and not the herd mentality.

    However polls are important only in as much as they are needed to prove to the government they won’t get voted in again because the majority are pro life and not pro death.

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  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    Nick. The proven incorrect assumption???? Oh dear. Not another poll. There is nothing good about abortion Nick. It hurts women. I wouldnt ever try to change ur mind cos its too closed. Have a think about opening ur mind.

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Ceara. U labelled me repulsive and i am not offended. I really dont mind. I am not the issue here. The important issue here is the protection of babies. To make people see the evil that is abortion.

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Colin b. Maybe u havent known real emotional pain and grief. I hope u never do… Women hurt by abortion could explain that to u. Its a grief and a loss that will never leave u, the loss of a baby.

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    • And the loss of a friend who killed themselves because they couldn’t escape to the UK never leaves you either.

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    • Colin B 22/02/13 #

      My point which you conveniently ignored was that your argument does not work. You seem to think because you disagree with something it is therefore bad and no one should have the thing you dont like. All I need to do to prove you wrong is find one woman who has has an abortion who looks back and feels it was the right, if difficult, thing for them. They exist and I bet they’re not some tiny minority either.

      Losing a baby is, I’m sure, crushing. As crushing as having a rapists baby would be to a woman who did not want it. No woman should be forced to have an abortion in any circumstances where it is not their wish and likewise no woman should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy.

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Peter.. Zealots??? Mmmm U can call us pro life people any horrible disgusting negative name under the sun and it will not offend us. Our consciences are clear u see. I have no worries about abortion being legalized here. It’ll never happen…..

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  • Pro life …. pro choice…. you’re all wrong!!!

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  • deirdre 22/02/13 #

    Shanti. I can see u have a genuine concern for the well being of women. We both have that. But no matter what distress the expectant mother is in it will pass. There is no going back after an abortion.

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    • Deirdre, not everything passes. Anencephaly doesn’t. Pre existing conditions that make pregnancy risky don’t. The fact you may be carrying a rapists baby – or your relatives baby doesn’t.

      It’s all very well and good to view all pregnancies as simple, straight forward accidents that could end up being the best thing in the world but life really isn’t like that for everyone. There’s too many variables, and the only way to make sure that we are truly appreciating that, is to allow each individual woman make the choice that is right for her and then support her in it. That’s why I am pro choice.

      There’s so much energy wasted on opposing abortion that could be better put into preventing unwanted pregnancies – the only thing that really reduces the incidence of abortion.

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  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    Ur welcome. I mean it. I spoke to a gynacologist and he told me that when a mothers life is at risk they can simply remove the child by section and do all they can to help baby survive. Sometimes there is no hope. But he said there is no need ever to abort a child in his 35+ years as a gyny. I myself wouldnt consider that an abortion. If mammy isnt alive then baby wont survive. All life is sacred.

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    • That only occurs if a woman is late in her second trimester or into her third. They wouldn’t offer one to a woman who was anything less than maybe 20-22 weeks

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    • Deirdre, because of Ireland’s pro life leaning, a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy enters a lottery.. In some cases, she will be given an abortifacient, or a medical abortion. She takes the pill and the baby miscarries and they do a check to ensure it has all passed.
      Or (and this is what has happened to every woman I know who had one)
      They wait until the Fallopian tube is about to rupture and the woman is in danger of dying, perform a laparotomy (which involves cutting you open without cutting open the uterus) remove the baby, and the Fallopian tube, and in a lot of cases, the ovary on that side too.

      You see, there’s ways around doing an “abortion”, but sometimes the abortion is kinder and better..

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  • Well said Deirdre . Hard cases don’t make good law, the women deserve in these unfortunate situations deserve sympathy, practical support, killing the unborn doesn’t help her or the child obviously.

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  • Education about contraception is the way to go their should be no need for abortion . How in the name of all common sense can abortion be a cure for suicide, in fact the opposite is the case abortion causes suicide. Fine Gael is totally turning its back on its core vote, they will be aborted at the next election,and good riddance

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  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    I agree benny. Hard cases dont make good law. Thats what i’ve been thinkin but i didnt have the words. And u are so right. So many women who think abortion might be the answer have not looked or found or been helped to find an alternative solution. We all need help at times. I’ve been to Positive Options for an unplanned pregnancy of my own. The woman i met handled my vulnerability with such care and love. I was confused and she showed me the way to go. Abortion wasnt the answer. All women need is support. Women have great strenght to get thro anything but sometimes they dont know it

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  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    Anna. Two wrongs dont make a right. Its wrong that someone should have to go thro a pregnancy after being raped. However talk to her outside the abortion clinic after the child gets ripped out of her. She is mother to that child no matter how it was conceived.

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  • deirdre 23/02/13 #

    Tw

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