I don’t mean to belittle anyone here, but I find it a little strange that this is still an issue. This is pretty much a dead debate in most ( non-English speaking ) Northern European countries. As you say, no one cares on way or the other. The racism on the continent is very scary to see, but homophobia ( in public ) is not tolerated.

I’m in a similar situation. My colleagues have mo issue at all with my being gay. But as I work with the public one on one I would not be forthcoming about my partner. Partly because it is none of their business but also because I could and have lost business because of this.

I find it a little strange you would be talking about your personal life to the public. nMy wife works with the public and they mention foreigners, addicts and the mentally ill in negative ways. All of which are in her family. She really doesn’t take offence every time. Yes it is ignorance but also a different view. nNot sure you can expect everybody to have the same values or views. In work nobody should be allowed express or be hostile with prejudice views. nWe all have views we can’t express openly. My view on religion would be something I wouldn’t mention as it would offend some. I think it is a bit much to expect everyone to accept your own beliefs. n

Kal you would like to think your relationships are your own business but you’d be surprised at the liberties people take. I was always out at work but I don’t bother these days because I contact and am often not around long enough to build relationships. Besides it’s irrelevant to my work and some client sites have been hostile enough without introducing something else for then to whine about. Oh and by the way that was while working for the supposedly best LGBT employer in the world. The double standards applied by so called LGBT friendly employers masks their willingness to listen to clients demands for discriminatory practices in other areas.

Tho be honest lots of people, gay and straight don’t have any job at all to go to and some of us who do with have no benefits to fight over rights to. Its less of an issue than unemployment which in any case hits gay folk disproportionately.

@Laura. Not sure what point you are trying to make??? People are nosy? My comments were about not expecting everybody to have the same views. Members of the public certainly don’t have to abide by what I would expect in work. nLots of things can offend and I doubt anybody has views that are always pc.

You have a point there Eoin. Sometimes the ‘cool gay person we employ’ can be put on display while other times they can be locked in a closet when they might cause ‘offense’… ultimately is about how the gay in the village can be ‘useful’ to the company that wants to show that it is “progressive”. Leading companies, such as US corporations who are noted for gay staff don’t seem to ‘flaunt’ staffers in that way.

I’m sorry that human rights issues bore you.

yes i agree. as a gay person this constant barrage of articles and debates on gay issues is only going to annoy people and be counter-productive. the truth does still hold that too many people are hiding their true selves to maintain jobs and friendships. i feel like there should be a government led drive in the workplace to ensure people know its a safe and equal environment for every worker and not just those that fit traditional norms.

If you can arrange for inequalities to stop, I’ll arrange for the articles to stop too.

Deal?

It’s not like they have it tattooed on their head!

Brian Rogan Blame the Catholic church for everything. What about our near non catholic neighbours that were hanging and jailing gay people for centuries. It appears some are too brainwashed or do not have the sense to see beyond the prejudices of their cohort. But they are great at overestimating their knowledge and thinking abilities!

Some people just are private and don’t want to be forced to broadcast their lives. This goes for for both gay and straight. Lots of us work with people’s know very little about. Gay people supplement be forced to be publicly open. That actually every bit as oppressive as denying people.

That comment was not made by Rebecca it was made by me, she was still logged on on my computer and I didn’t realise!!!!

so straight people never refer to their spouses or girl/boyfriends? isnt that displaying hetrosexuality?

Not necessarily. People make small talk about their loved ones all the time and one can deduce from that what sexual orientation a person has. Gay people, myself included, are a little more guarded. I tend to use unisex terms like “partner” and the like. This will change very soon I think though. (or maybe it’s just me

I know, right? All the straight people I know lie about their spouses or partners and pretend to be single, so as not to flaunt their sexuality. And they would never, ever have the cheek to bring their spouses/partners to an office party or function – or worse invite you to their “weddings” and expect you to show up and and buy them presents (can you imagine, not only would they be flaunting their sexuality, but actually expecting you to celebrate it). They never tell you what they got up to in “those” nightclubs where they go to meet people (who want’s to hear about raunchy dancing to cheesy eighties music and sweaty bodies groping each other. What happens in Coppers should stay in Coopers).

Those gays though, grrr! If they had their way, we’d be talking about all of this stuff and more every day in the office (who know’s, they’d probably send emails around their office rating all the new staff. Wait, nobody would be that stupid, would they?). At the water cooler of all places!

They make my blood boil sometimes!

“I have rarely seen so called straight people openly displaying their heterosexuality”

Is that supposed to be some kind of joke? When straight people casually mention their partner/girlfriend/husband at work, they are effectively “displaying their heterosexuality”. And they should be able to do that. It’s nice to have that kind of easy rapport with your colleagues. Gay people simply want to feel comfortable doing the same thing.

Being open about your sexuality doesn’t mean screaming about sex all day or coming to work wearing assless chaps. It just means being honest about your life.

Well said!!

Hetro parade anyone ??

I think the main issue here is that people usually assume everyone’s straight (unless someone acts “gay” – but that wouldn’t necessarily be an indicator of someone’s sexual orientation). The issue is that if you’re gay and have a partner or something like that, you’re constantly going to wonder if you should mention that you have a partner – or if you should constantly mask that they’re the same sex as you. You have to choose your words carefully in these situations and be a lot more secretive if you don’t want people to know. Because straight people can casually mention things about their private life without anyone ever batting an eyelid.

And the truth is that being gay is still not completely normalised – so there will be instances when you disclose your sexual orientation and people will treat you differently – or special – not necessarily in a negative way but it will make you feel a little weird.

So it’s almost always something you have to think about, while straight people don’t have to. If everyone assumed everyone was gay all the time, straight people would feel put on the spot a little too. Sexual orientation and shouldn’t ever be a big deal and people shouldn’t have to talk about it at all – but there ya go.

@Kev Sheehan – If you hadn’t noticed, life is one big straight pride parade.

ah, you’re wrong ben.
straight people disclose/discuss their sexuality ALL THE TIME at work!
my boyfriend this, my fella that, my husband the other.
the thing is that it comes so naturally to us that we don’t even notice that we’re doing it.
my manager is “married” to her partner since last year, and she held a work drinks party afterwards.
i’m sure that that was a much harder thing for her to have to announce than if she’d married a bloke!

There are many workplaces where Manchester United fans are afraid to disclose their affiliations. Where GAA fans must pretend to be soccer fans. Places where men are not welcome. Places where women are not welcome. Workplaces where journalists are afraid to express their intelligence ad inf.

Two questions arise

1. why does sexuality get us so excited?

2. Are Gilmore and Shatter jumping on a bandwagon to divert attention from their own political shortcomings?

Believe it or not the journal.ie censor does not like the word Sc*nthorpe

To your comment below,
It’s not really the same thing. I think it’s both natural and good for morale to get to know colleagues. Women in particular love to talk about their kids, husbands, neighbours, pets etc. It’s less easy for gay people. Surely, you’ll acknowledge that.

Hi Donnagh Murphy, of course I realise that some gay people find it less easy to talk about their sex life in pubic as I’m sure would most hetros would share that reluctance. I cannot see why on earth LGBTs would not talk about their “neighbours, pets etc.” or even their partner or friends or the craic in the gay bar or any other pub.

My wry comment is pointing out the existence of “persecutory delusions” and asking why the LBGT community thinks that they victims. After all it s an opinion that is in-congruent with reality!

Who said anything about discussing “sex lives”? When a person talks about their wife, that’s not the equivalent to talking about their sex life. Similarly, when a LGBT person mentions their partner or mentions the fact that they’re that way inclined, they’re not discussing the intricacies of the carry-on in the bedroom which is what is being implied by some commentators on this article.

If I came into the office this morning and said, “ya I f***ed your man last night, a foot long he was”, that’s inappropriate.

The overall point I’m making is that LGBT people should be able to be out in their office and feel comfortable talking about their lives in the same manner as Heterosexuals. And neither subgroup should be allowed discuss the bedroom antics at work.

The point I am making Donnagh Murphy is what in hell is stopping you from being comfortable about taking about your life in front of others. You perceive that others have no time for you because you are Gay! That is incongruent with reality. We all have suffered personal insults, slights against our character and do we attribute the cause to our heterosexuality. Thus I submit with respect that “persecutory delusions” create an illusory mindset that sees itself under attack. I am not saying that homophobia does not exist. It does. However is a complete exaggeration to suggest that one cannot talk about ones neighbours, pets, colleagues etc. because of one’s LGBT orientation and that I suggest is evidence of “persecutory delusions”.

prevelent

pretty sure most gay people get their cues to be worried about persecution from the everyday examples of said persecution in their lives…

you suggesting it’s all in our heads Miles?

Well I can only assume that you’ve never been attacked for being gay, or shunned or bullied – something that happens on a regular basis here in Ireland if you actually open your eyes to it at all.

I think gay people know that there’s a great many people in Ireland who are supportive of them, and that the tide is turning. But there still an entrenched prejudice against lgbt people. There is still violence against them, there’s still people passing comments about them and they are still “abnormal” in society. So they have concerns and rightly so.

Deal with it, okay? And deal with the fact that this “persecution complex” is actually all in your head.

Now Eleen you make assumptions, false assumptions. I have been bullied. I could have got paranoid but that would have let the bullys win. I won because I am not afraid of what I am or what people perceive my sexual orientation to be.

Gay bashing is not exclusive to Ireland nor is it more prevalent here than elsewhere! Ireland is delightfully tolerant and Irish people are wonderful and just for balance we do have some clowns too like everywhere else.

Now Ellen which one of us has the “persecution complex”? Or will you make more false assumptions in denial.

I said I was assuming, yeah. Not everyone is as brave as you though, and not everyone wants to have to deal with that threat.

Your experience is your experience. The fact still remains that in plenty of cases, gay people fret over disclosing their sexual orientation – and many may have had bad experiences in the past that would make it even tougher. I’m not saying Ireland is bad – it’s pretty great as far as being gay goes – but there are still problems – homophobia is not imaginary, it’s still very much a part of our society. Kids get bullied, gay slurs are used all the time in normal parlance, people get beaten up for being gay, I for example, have been followed and threatened with rape while out with my girlfriend (on georges street in Dublin, if you can believe). So you should be able to understand why some people may be fearful to disclose this information to work colleagues and bosses.

It’s one thing if you’re saying that gay people should be self-aware and critical of their fears because they may be exaggerated. I agree that some people do feel more worried about it and persecuted than they probably should be. But what you’re doing here is saying that feeling persecuted or fearful as a gay person is all in their heads because Ireland’s perfectly grand. How can you make that judgement?

Your flowery language won’t save ya, Miles! :P

Eleen I was going to praise you for being one of the few able to formulae a cogent argument in response and then you go and prove my supposition to be illusory.

The point I am making is a simple one. We all have been subjected to snide comments, bullying, discrimination ad inf. no matter what our sexual orientation is or has been. WE can be active participants in removing the said behaviour only if we act instead of just moaning about it.

I hope you had the good sense to report that moron that threatened to rape you. If you chose not to take action then you have no right to blame society.

I hope that was not too florid for you.

I don’t really care for your praise, thanks very much. You can keep it anyway.

Like I said before, I have no problem with challenging people’s insecurities if they are baseless. That’s a healthy and positive thing to do. And yeah we can be active participants in removing said behaviour. Plenty people are, that’s what the whole struggle is about isn’t it?

Except you’re implying very heavily that all this work is entirely up to lgbt people (classic victim blaming – along with that dodgy comment that I have no right to “blame society” if I didn’t report the threat…thanks for that), and on top of that you’re denying the experiences of so many lgbt people here in Ireland that have legitimate worries and fears, as well as bad experiences.

If you want to have an intelligent debate, be intelligent.

Can you honestly say that work places being more active in showing that they are lgbt friendly is a bad thing? It would help those who are worried know that they have people on their side, it would help them know they could turn to their superiors for help if someone was being horrible to them. It doesn’t take much effort, and would eradicate this “persecution complex” a lot of people have, so you should be happy about that.

Eleen thanks for proving my point. You failed to report the homophobic moron and thus you empowered him to continue to abuse more Gay people (a bit selfish). Your lack of action also denied society a chance to deal with the said moron and thus society is not to blame you are! You have allowed Gay persecution to continue and then moan about being persecuted! Doh! (forgive the Homerism)

The point I am making is that a lot of what is ‘normal’ human behaviour is misinterpreted by LGBT people as homophobia. If LGBT people can recognise the difference their life will become a whole lot easier.

The simple fact of the matter is that some people (mostly the socially inept) engage in childish name calling as a vehicle to boost their own self image of social standing. It is one nasty manifestation of the common or garden inferiority complex.

In an earlier post you wrote that you were reluctant to reveal your sexual orientation because people will treat you different. Yeah, you are different just accept it and get over it. You will always be treated differently by others just learn to enjoy it.

Don’t worry Eleen it was not real praise but a philippic in florid persiflage.

okay. I’m going to leave you in your little fantasy world of big words now. lol.

Work and private life always intertwine, Val. What about Christmas parties, next of kin in case of an emergency, etc. Are you suggesting gay people don’t bring partners to the Christmas party or work BBQ if partners are invited? There’s being discreet and there’s being closeted. I’m afraid it is a human rights issue.

Consider “if a man DECIDES to keep how many children he has to himself” versus “FEEL THE NEED to onceal their sexual orientation.”

The point of these sort of campaigns isn’t to ensure that everybody is open about being gay in their work/social lives. It’s to ensure that they CAN DECIDE to be open if they wish, without fear of any negative consequences or reprisal.

People are generally free to decide whether or not to share information about their children or their living arrangements with colleagues without having to fear adverse consequences if they do.The choice is entirely theirs, without any outside factors influencing it (generally speaking). He has the right to disclose or not to disclose.

For LGBT people though, there is unfortunately a risk (real or perceived) of adverse consequences, so the decision whether or not to disclose personal circumstances isn’t one they can take themselves freely. Their right to disclose is being infringed upon as a result.

All GLEN want to achieve is an environment where LGBT people are free to make that decision on their own terms without the fear of an adverse consequence. They want the same freedom to exercise that rights as any other colleague. They may well decide not to disclose, but the decision is theirs.

How exactly can people have a problem with that? Surely you would a work place environment where everybody can participate on an equal footing?

Everybody, straight, gay, black, white, male or female should be able to feel comfortable in work.

In a functioning workplace, you want people to be able to interact with their colleagues, build a rapport and develop a certain degree of friendship. It helps productivity if people are happy and secure in their work place environment. If everybody, straight or gay were to keep their private lives out of their jobs, the workplace would be a dreary, depressing place where staff would resent going to.

I’m not saying that at all! Obviously there are going to be situation where private and work lives intertwine. But when exactly does a gay man or woman stop concealing their sexuality? Do they come in on their first day and come out straight away, so everyone knows the score? Or do they wait until someone brings it up in conversation? In all years I was in work, I never felt the need or the want to make sure any colleague I worked with knew I was straight. Similarly, I had gay colleague who I never felt the need to ask their sexual orientation and they never felt the need to tell me I’m sure. In fact I know a couple that would have told me too mind my own business!

Val, it should be the gay person’s decision as to when, if at all, the disclose their sexuality or other personal information.

Generally speaking, as a straight person, that decision is yours to make without having to worry about adverse consequences.

Can you agree that LGBT should have the right to make that decision on the same terms as you, without fearing consequences?

That’s all that GLEN are trying to achieve here – the same freedom to decide for themselves as you do. There’s no special treatment being sought. GLEN are just trying to get employers to foster an environment where everybody feels equal.

I fail to see how anybody can have a problem with that (unless of course they don’t believe in equality or equal treatment for certain groups, though am not suggesting that is the case with you).

Yes Val. You wait until it comes up in conversation. I don’t think anyone would burst in on their first day and shout ‘ Everyone, I’m gay!!!!’. Subtlety is the key.

Miles you could also add to your list places where black people are not welcome, and in your case, places where fools are not welcome. Being free to be who you are in the workplace is not asking a lot. That doesn’t mean LGBT people are going to start discussing their sex lives in the canteen.

Patrick Lawlor Does being ‘Gay’ rob one of the ability to display intellectual prowess?

Clearly there’s no link between sexuality and intelligence. To suggest so would be discriminatory…and foolish. ‘Persecutory delusions’ aren’t something I suffer from. Some places are overtly homophobic. Whether it’s a workplace, a sports club, whatever. The point is they shouldn’t be. And gay people shouldn’t have to hide who they are in such places. If you worked in a company with a black colleague and you witnessed overt racism would you just take the ‘shit happens’ approach you seem to be taking?

Patrick Lawlor I was making references to gun slinging abilities and when you perceive an insult against gay people you are very quick to reach for your tiny little insult box. That does not strike me as being very intellectual but your over reaction does prove the existence of a “persecution complex.”

Do you really not believe that homophobia exists in Ireland today? Of course it does. Recognising that is not a “persecution complex.”

Nick Beard, it is the hysterical over reaction and tendency to see almost everyone “straight” as homophobic that gives us the biggest clue to the existence of the “persecution complex”. For example Dubliners hate culchies but does that stop culchies coming to Dublin! Or stop them talking about culchie things! Thus we can conclude that despite the existence of Culchiephobia, culchies don’t have a persecution complex!

He didn’t say that. He said some straight people are homophobic and it can be pretty hard to determine who it is. No one should have to deal with that worry.

As a culchie, I can tell you that they do indeed have a persecution complex :P come up with a better argument.

Often though its not actually a case of actual prejudice – just perceived prejudice. An employee might feel that they will be treated adversely if they come out, but it may not actually be the case at all. An employer and their staff might be fully accepting, but in some cases unless they take some steps to let people know that, it might not be obvious.

Hence this sort of thing can do a lot of good.

@Damian – Good point. I never thought about it like that actually, I can see how it could be very beneficial from that angle. I’m sure it would mean a lot to many people if they had the confidence in talking about their home life at work without worry of being treated badly. We all like to give out about our better halves after all!