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Dublin: 6 °C Friday 24 May, 2013

Column: Why shouldn’t women choose motherhood over a job?

Valuing a ‘career’ over full-time parenting might be well-meaning, but it takes away everyone’s right to decide, writes Kate Katharina Ferguson.

Kate Katharina Ferguson

From academics comparing pens and penises, to well-meaning journalists wondering why mothers pick full-time parenting – Kate Katharina Ferguson argues that by spelling out roles for women, those in favour of gender equality can sometimes make the same mistakes as those who oppose it.

IN 1979, TWO women called Gilbert and Gubar collaborated to write a treatise called The Madwoman in the Attic. Their work opens with the question “Is the pen a metaphorical penis?”

For decades, academics and journalists have been considering women’s place in the world. They have been characterised as angels, whores, monsters and mothers. In the name of progress, their gift in writing has been likened to the male reproductive organ.

In western society, traditional notions of a woman’s place in the home have become taboo. Of late, the idea that a woman might choose to become a full-time mother rather than a professional has been rendered unthinkable.

The reluctance to accept that a woman may decide on motherhood over career advancement was exemplified by a New York Times article by Jack Ewing published last year, which meditated on the surprisingly small number of German women who return to fulltime work after availing of the government-paid 12-month parental leave.

The writer laments the fact that “Despite a battery of government measures … only about 14 percent of German mothers with one child resume full-time work, and only six percent of those with two”. He goes on to cite example after example of corporate bodies where only a tiny proportion of women have ended up at the top. Part of the problem, he muses is that “most schools still end at lunchtime, which has sustained the stay-at-home-mother image of German lore”.

‘Women are opting not to return to work’

Ewing expresses the misgiving that “when it comes to empowering women, no Teutonic drive or deference seems to work”. But far from promoting any egalitarian cause, such speculation denies women the right to make life choices outside of a socio-political narrative, which subtly yet forcefully dictates that having a career is more worthy than caring for a child and that empowerment can only be measured in economic terms.

Germany is a good example to focus on to illustrate the point. Government measures strongly support the mother and father in the workplace – each is allowed 12 months parental leave with pay and is guaranteed their job back at the end of it. (Scandalously, fathers in Ireland are not legally entitled to a single paid day of parental leave.) Although it’s probable that a larger proportion of German mothers return to part-time work, the fact that only 14 per cent go back to a fulltime career is indeed surprising.

In the absence of financial and political disincentives however, the fact that is continuously over-looked is that women are opting not to return to work. Instead of being respected as free agents, those that make this choice are treated as victims of a social order which is portrayed as significantly less than the sum of its egalitarian parts.

For true parity to exist, the Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus mantra must be debunked. Ewing describes Germany as “one of the countries in most need of female talent” (my italics) but doesn’t define what he means by the term. If men and women are to be considered equal, then how can there be a fundamental distinction between “male” and “female” talent? Surely an individual’s capabilities cannot be merely attributed to their gender?

This Friday, a seminar will be held at University College Cork to discuss the introduction of legislation which would remove funding from political parties which do not reach the 30 per cent quota of female candidates at the next election.

‘Do we want to go down the road of quotas?’

While it’s worthwhile to draw attention to gender disparities in top corporate and political positions, the discourse that surrounds it – while well-intentioned – does a good job of enforcing the idea that women remain passive beings with little control over the course of their lives.

Interestingly two prominent female politicians in both Ireland and Germany oppose gender quotas. Minister of State for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton has come out against them, as has Germany’s Family Minister Kristina Schröder. The latter recently published a book titled Danke Emanzipiert Sind Wir Selber – which translates roughly as Thanks, But We’ve Emancipated Ourselves – in which she argues against the idea of dictating to women what kinds of social roles they should play.

If you take ‘gender equality’ to mean achieving a 50:50 female to male ratio within all sectors, we’re a long way away from achieving it. Do we want to go there anyway? How would society react to imposing a 30 per cent female quota on waste management or offshore drilling? Unless it’s accepted as equally scandalous that the proportion of male nurses is equivalent to that of female corporate executives, a discussion of gender can never be detached from a social weighting in favour of money.

Were society’s priorities reversed, public discussion might centre around the outrage that a man’s right to parental leave is considerably more restricted than a woman’s, that a boy’s emotional development is stunted by the expectation that he will advance up a corporate ladder and that the male body is no more than a military tool.

While you can’t spell “metaphorical penis” without pen, as I look again at my black felt tip I begin to think that Gilbert and Gubar might have been equipped with rather (pardon me) fertile imaginations.

Kate Katharina Ferguson is an Irish journalist working in Berlin. She writes atkatekatharina.com and you can follow her on Twitter at @KateKatharina.

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Comments (69 Comments)

  • I think the quota idea is ridiculous, there’s no point having someone there just because the quota needs it. I am feeding my 8 wk old as I read this and being honest I would love to never go back to work but that’s just not possible

    Reply
    • mattoid 13/06/12 #

      Congrats on the new baby Orela….
      I think you’ve got straight to the nub of the issue – for financial reasons many families simply don’t have the luxury of the mother choosing to remain at home rearing the child.
      In the past the traditional family unit would have consisted of one partner being the breadwinner whilst the other looked after the home front. In recent decades the cost of living has meant that by necessity one-wage households have become increasingly rare, as one income is simply not enough to sustain the household.

      Reply
    • I think it’s also important to recognise that our current divorce laws disproportionately affect stay at home mothers. At the moment, there’s a lot of academic research being done with elderly divorced women that show that if you were a stay at home mother before the divorce, you are far more likely to encounter poverty when elderly.

      We can have all kinds of debates about it (should property be divided differently if a mother stayed at home) but I think it’s a relevant part of the conversation that people understand what can go wrong if a marriage does not work out.

      Reply
  • The article mentions research which finds 14% of German women return to full time work after maternity leave.

    Maybe this is because they have found a better understanding of work/like balance having stepped back from the “rat race ” for a while. It may have nothing to do with the maternity side of things at all.

    We are so conditioned to 5 day, 40 hour weeks, and employers can be quite inflexible if an employee wants to work anything but those hours ( especially those who don’t have children. A more flexible system would allow choice to parents how they want to organise childcare.

    I liked the article and agree that a serious debate about how we wish to organise our new society is necessary. The current system suits nobody.

    I didn’t get the pen/penis connection, but it’s early and I may just need a coffee.

    Reply
  • Freedom includes the freedom to choose what you want to do with your life while still carrying out your obligation to society.

    Telling wome, or men, or anyone that they have to do this that or the other on top of that is controlling and somewhat tiresome.

    Reply
  • I have 2 children and returned to full employment when the second one started school. And it wasn’t for the mortgage money, but because I’ve put years and a lot of effort into my career and I wanted it back. This makes me a pariah with other mammies – those of us who work have to be very apologetic and explain we need the money. I am sorry, but
    ” Of late, the idea that a woman might choose to become a full-time mother rather than a professional has been rendered unthinkable.”
    is the exact opposite of my experience in Ireland. Do you know what most mothers want? Flexible part-time hours. Which, if you are lucky to get it, still means you will never get promoted.
    As simple as that.

    Reply
    • as a mother who had my chidren in the 80s and stayed at home to raise them, I found the attitudes of the working mother so patronising, constantly asking how can you stay at home all day, dont you get bored, wouldn’t you love a “little job” as if i was some kind of imbicile. When my youngest started secondary shool I went back to work and I got they very same questions from women 20 years younger than me. And before anybody says arent you the lucky one who could afford to stay at home, we lived in a mobile home for 3 years while we built our house, no foreign holidays, 1 second hand car no such thing as eating out and Santa only brought my kids one present. Not complaining cos I would do it all again, but working mothers to me have a nasty attitude toward the stay at home mum

      Reply
  • If “jobs” are such a good thing, why do people have to be paid to do them?

    People should have the maximum freedom to choose their employment-life pattern. The choices they make are their own business,

    Caring for children is extremely important, even in economic terms. (For example, a child who cannot talk will not usually make a functional employee.) Without employees, there would be no economy. Women’s–or men’s–work in the home is currently given little or no economic recognition.

    We need to re-organise how we distribute wealth, in order to give people maximum choice in their lives, and to recognise the economic input of people whose social contribution takes place outside of the formal economy.

    Reply
    • So true Paul.
      We never look at the economic benefit to society of a parent (mother or father) who stays at home to raise a child.
      A well loved, cared for, nurtured child will pay dividends to the economy in productivity and society as a citizen.

      We need to appreciate parenting.

      Reply
  • Ms Creighton opposes equality in all forms.

    Fortunately for her, she’s ridiculously overpaid (with all her colleagues) so she won’t have any issues with accessing childcare.

    People at her level don’t have a clue.

    Who tells you you have to work? If you can afford to stay home and coddle your children, go for it. Most of us cannot afford that luxury. I’ve heard Prada-clad women say that “after childcare” they’re only bringing in an extra €500 a month. Why bother right?

    Sure, that makes sense. Cut out a handbag a month and you, too, can stay home and help the nanny.

    For the rest of us, an extra €100 a month means meeting the mortgage or not. It’s not feminists, it’s the cost of living. It’s also deadbeat dads. It’s also extra taxes. It’s cutting child benefit because they’re school-aged (who cares what your 7 year old does from 3pm until you get home at half six, right?).

    Sick of rich people telling women they have a choice. Most don’t.

    Reply
  • Ugh. The headlines in here are a bit too sensationalist. Are these from the editor or the authors I wonder? It hardly relates to the article at all.

    Yes, quotas are not the way, allowing fathers leave to also look after their children is better. i don’t see men clamouring for it though.

    Also, in public life when candidates are selected sometimes young women are passed over because They ‘may’ at some point have a child. The estimate is that between 30 and 40% of women these days never have a child at all in their lifes, so this needs to be addressed somehow. It must be frustrating.

    Reply
    • I agree with P Wurple the headline spoils the real story for me and it a pity because I enjoy the article. I to agree gender quota are not the way, I’m in the 1% bracket of male childcare workers in Ireland but don’t want to see quotas in childcare because we want the best person for the job male or female – why should any other career be different. The problem in western society is that we get hook up on traditional gender stereotypes, if you look at traditional Polynesian culture men did the caring and women were the leaders. We need to think outside the box and accept people for who they are and what they want to do, education around gender roles and equality is needed but sometimes this type of change can be slow. We’ve set up a network to support men looking at a career in childcare and have seen an improvement in the numbers of men entering our profession and likewise it about talking to people and listening,providing info and challenging stereotypes. /more info on http://www.facebook.com/meninchildcare

      Reply
    • Hey P Wurple, Headlines and subheading are all written by the editors. Authors don’t have any control over those unfortunately!

      Here in Berlin there is a man, a single father, who walks outside the Bundestag day in, day out holding a hand-drawn sign demanding rights to see his kids. He and Merkel nod to each other and wish each other a good weekend every Friday. I take your point though – why aren’t there more of them?

      I absolutely agree that discrimination against women of “child-bearing age” has to be tackled. Employers behaving that way is outrageous. And why do we assume that men of “child-bearing age” won’t have to balance work and family life?

      Reply
    • I think the comments on here show it’s far more controversial to NOT choose motherhood over a job!

      Reply
  • Why why why is our society clammering for both parents to be part of the workforce?

    The social destruction of ramming children into childcare and both parents driving off for hours on the commute only to come home half bollixed in the evenings. They cannot give their kids 100% before whisking them off to bed only to repeat the whole excercise again in the morning… absolute madness.

    But don’t worry, the government will love you for it.. all the taxes paid on the employment, taxes on fuel spent on the commute, taxes on the earnings of the creche… it’s a win-win situation for the govt…

    meanwhile in 10 years time you will have a kid(s) that you don’t even half know… a kid that will return you the favour by shipping you into a nursing home for your 75th birthday… the wheel will turn full circle.

    Now ask youself… is it all worth it?

    The Government needs to cop-on big time and start encouraging one stay-at-home parent (male or female – it shouldn’t matter) The family unit in this country at present is poorly supported by government policy and if it is allowed to continue we will have huge social problems down the line.

    Reply
    • I couldn’t agree more !

      I am one of those that chose to give up my career to look after my children. I feel no less challenged on a day today basis, have never felt any regret at leaving my career behind.

      I chose to have children therefore I have to make the choices to bring them up responsibly, its short term pain for long term gain, for us that means me staying at home with them for the moment despite our economic worries.

      Reply
    • Er, both may parents worked and my siblings and I seem to have magically turned out not to be a shower of delinquents. I am also quite familiar with my parents despite having been RAMMED INTO A HIDEOUS OPPRESSIVE KIDDIE GULAG every morning (oh no, wait, hang on, it was a very nice childminder, whose son I brought to my debs…) and am not quite planning on selling them for medical experiments just yet. I also quite happily leave my own child in a similar TERRIBLE SITUATION OF ABANDONMENT.

      Totally agree that there should be more flexibility for families to structure their work/life balance the way they want, but painting all families where both parents work as some kind of child-neglect situation/RECIPE FOR SOCIAL DISASTER is frankly a bit silly.

      Reply
    • I totally disagree with the idea that “one size fits all” for families. The Conservative government in the UK has had the same idea – redistribute jobs so there is one income earner in the family. It’s ridiculous. A lot of families need that second income and some people just like their jobs. Both my partner and I love our jobs and would want to continue working after having children.

      You also seem to assume that all working parents have a lower quality of relationship with their child. I assure you, I had two working parents (full time working parents, who both had to juggle childcare with 8 to 7 workdays) and I look back and am glad I had two strong examples of parents who loved their work and especially, a strong working mother.

      How your children turn out is affected by a lot of variables and plenty of children of working parents are happy they had working parents. Government forcing one parent to stay at home is just as bad as forcing both parents to work.

      Reply
    • “Government forcing one parent to stay at home is just as bad as forcing both parents to work.”

      EXACTLY. Families should be able to do what suits them best. Both my partner and I really like our jobs and I don’t think either of us is cut out for full time stay at home parenthood, plus we have access to good childcare, a certain degree of work flexibility, and short commutes, so we both work outside the home. Works for our family. Mightn’t work for others.

      Reply
    • Actually, now that I think of it, both of my mother’s parents worked as well. We are patently a terrible picture of multi-generational neglect, leading to appalling successful careers in IT, the media, and the civil service.

      Reply
    • It seems people repeat their family patterns – I also had 2 working parents, and they managed to bring up children who are ambitious and independent. It helped they had jobs in education, so were able to spend a lot of time with us. So maybe instead of encouraging stay-at-home parents the government should encourage flexible work and job-shares, and extend maternity leave?

      Reply
    • That’s a great point, Milena. While I didn’t suffer in any way from two working parents (and am quite proud of the fact that I could do my laundry, tidy up after myself, feed myself and was generally self sufficient at a young age), my mother wishes she’d had the flexibility to have more time with us at a young age and not sacrifice her career. Let’s promote options!

      Reply
    • P Wurple 13/06/12 #

      Daniel, what are you on about…. my parents both worked, my mother was part-time until we were all in school. If anything they were a great example to us. All of us are well-educated, have decent careers, happy marriages and children of our own. None of us are delinquents.

      Studies have shown that one of the most successful models for raising children today is where one parent works full time, and the other part time. Obviously one size doesn’t fit all, but to lambast the families who are happy, healthy and successful as socially destructive is just complete daftness.

      Even historically the notion of the stay at home mammy is recent enough. Most familes at the turn of the century or before would have the father working full time (full time being 6 days) and the mother either in part time work or some kind of home industry.

      Only the very wealthy ever had the luxury of one parent not earning something…

      Reply
    • Totally agree. There is very little support for families with working patents, e.g. the ability to write child care costs off against tax as you can do in the UK. In my opinion it’s almost impossible for both parents of young children to work full time in demanding careers unless they get a lot of support from extended family and/or are rich enough to buy in help with housework, etc. Tried it ourselves for a while after our second child and it wasn’t long before the wheels came off. I was very lucky to be able to take some time out and I’m planning to return part time. It’s very tough financially but we are living rather than just surviving. Also agree that very little value is put on the ‘social capital’ of parenting. It’s one of the most important jobs anyone does

      Reply
  • Must agree w/ P Wurple.
    Women are to feel equal to men this day in age , but my concern is single Parents today.. women, and men with children, employers are more likely to pass over you should you have children at home which if you think about it is discrimination. It is automatically assumed that because you have a child or children you are not able to fully commit yourself to the potential employer, and this is why a lot of women as I see it could choose motherhood over a career. Its unfair to be pushed aside by employers so to speak because you decided to start a family and have children leaving your employer uneasy with this because they feel you aren’t going to be dependable. Are we to tell our next generation maybe of a lower number population due to less child bearing, that it was more important to be career minded rather then family oriented. I see so many young people today saying they dont want children , honestly that’s a shame since when is having children such an awful thing now a days, and what about these children who are now being brought up not by their parents but by strangers so that we can climb the latter in this rat race. While paying top dollar for others to raise our children, and not much financial assistance in doing so to the single mother who has to decide if its cheaper to stay home and raise her child or to go out and work one maybe 2 jobs one just to pay for the child care alone. Where is the logic in all of it? What is rite and what is wrong?

    Reply
    • I know this much is true simply because when going to a job interview .. one of the questions asked is if you have children. I experienced this several times. I personally think this shouldn’t be asked at all, only because now you know that they are reconsidering giving you the position compared to a person who don’t have children is more desirable. So now if your lucky enough to have helpful friends and family fantastic, but if not your left paying the high cost of child care which consumes a good portion of your paycheck, assistance is available threw the government agency but …… you have a waiting list you must remain on till funding becomes available. My plans are to continue to await child care assistance, and or stay home with my child one more year till she reaches school age. It is true that things are much different now then they were back in the day where husbands and wives remained together. I agree having 2 incomes today is a must! unfortunately some of us don’t have that privilege. As folks with morals and maturity are not what they use to be when raised years ago.

      Reply
    • You should never be asked if you have children in an interview. We have equality legislation to protect job seekers and employees from being discriminated against based on their family status.

      If you have been asked this question and feel you have been discriminated against, I would suggest that you get in touch with the Equality Authority and get advice on what course of action is open to you.

      Reply
    • “honestly that’s a shame since when is having children such an awful thing now a days, and what about these children who are now being brought up not by their parents but by strangers so that we can climb the latter in this rat race.” – Do you not think it’s a good thing that people can make the decisions that are best for them? I want children because I want them, not because I should have them. It’s great that so many people have options, including the option not have children. It’s important to decide what works for you, rather than what society says you should do.

      I find my job at a rape crisis centre deeply fulfilling and intend to keep it after having children. I don’t think we should be deciding what is right or wrong for anyone, but making it easier for people to organise their life in a way that suits them and their families.

      Reply
    • Nick I do think its okay to have the choice as to whether or not you want to have children, what I meant in my comment was that I noticed that many younger people feel that children are a burden or balls and chains stopping them from living a full life, and that while a good career is important so are family values and that children should never be looked upon as problem some restraints

      Reply
    • I think it’s a testament to how much the idea that having children really is a lot of work and responsibility has permeated into our culture. For a lot of people, having children is deeply fulfilling, but if you do have other priorities (you want to work in one of those jobs with no set stability or you enjoy being able to arrange your life to suit yourself), children will get in the way of it. I just think it’s nice that people accept children are a responsibility and are deciding whether or not it’s compatible with what they want from life.

      Reply
    • That said, i absolutely agree with you that it should be easier to balance work and family life. I just found your post to imply that that there’s something “worse” about not having children or working and leaving your child with a childminder. Different things work for different people.

      Reply
    • I agree, just don’t allow these employers to intimidate us to the point where we have to choose whats more important.. our having children or not having that job, because the kids are not to in some people’s eyes baggage.

      Reply
  • Wow, I totally disagree. Using gender quotas to encourage more women into Irish politics is about making our democratic system representative of the population it’s supposed to represent. If, as the author states, there’s no difference between men and women we have to wonder why one gender would consciously make a choice not to become involved in this sphere of public life. The answer is, they wouldn’t unless there were other factors at play preventing them from becoming more involved.
    But, men’s rights!!! Yes, well I agree, as I’m sure all feminists do. More men should be encouraged into caring professions and have access to the same paid family leave as women. Given just how slowly the Irish political system works, I think we need to be incredibly proud that we’re finally dealing with one aspect of gender inequality though quotas for candidate selection.

    Reply
    • Lamb 13/06/12 #

      Politics is a very narrow context of using gender quotas, I think the author might be speaking in more general terms. Banking directors, retail directors etc. Can you imagine the reverse if this of the gender idea? I think there would be a lot of idle male montessori teachers and male beauticians, especially when you factor in the less glamourous bits of the job.

      Reply
    • You’re assuming that the author is correct in saying that there is no difference between men and women and appear to advocate gender quotas on that basis.nIf that’s the case and there is no difference why would you care if men and women have unequal numerical representation in any profession?

      Reply
    • There is almost certainly a difference between the current lived experiences of men and women in Ireland. Does that mean that women tend to be a certain way and men another? From my experience, there are as many differences within genders as between them, but unfortunately, if I want to be represented by someone who has the same career/childcare balance concerns as I do, that will disproportionately be a woman.

      A friend once said the sadly true thing that people who want more quality time with their children (men and women) don’t go into politics.

      Reply
    • Yes, we should absolutely wonder that but we should also ask ourselves why more men don’t want to become nurses and primary school teachers and why women aren’t attracted to waste disposal, mining and building. What makes politics any different from the construction industry, for example? Do you think all prpofessions should have a 50:50 gender breakdown? And if so, why?

      Reply
    • I disagree with the idea that politics is just like any other industry, Kate. Because while I know it can feel like TDs are just doing placeholder jobs ;-), this is a representative democracy and I think we can distinguish between politics and other fields.

      Are quotas necessarily the best answer? No. But I’d like to think we can agree that having a more diverse body of politicians (in many ways – gender, ethnicity, LGBT community) is something that benefits society.

      Reply
  • So you think the penis is not mightier than the sword?

    Reply
  • Stopped reading when I came to this line:

    ” Of late, the idea that a woman might choose to become a full-time mother rather than a professional has been rendered unthinkable.”

    … What tripe!

    Reply
  • This article seems to work on the assumption that there is another parent in the picture. It also works off a very heteronormative model. There are a great many single mothers and fathers in various family configurations. However if you decide to become a full time parent without the support of a partner, how are you to support this ‘lifefstyle’ or ‘career’ choice? (Whatever way you want to label it) I agree that raising the future citizens of the nation is probably the single most important job there is. However, the reality is that the state cannot afford to foot the bill for everyone who chooses the role of home worker or child-minder. Provided a person can be self-supporting somehow, I have no issues with anyone deciding to raise children rather than take a traditional career path

    Reply
    • It is widely accepted that children do better with a parent looking after them.
      There is good child care available but nothing beats the presence of a parent provided they are a good parent.
      The yardstick is not how well kids do academically. It is about how rounded they are as people. It’s like the advocates of corporal punishment who say ‘never did me any harm’..
      Well, it clearly did if now they are advocating it.

      Reply
    • Sorry, can you point me to the academic research which says children with a full time homemaker do better? “Widely accepted” by who? Obviously my experience is purely anecdotal, but I’ve found that children with two working carers don’t do particularly better or worse than children with a homemaker parent.

      But I’m sure you wouldn’t make a generalised statement like that without proof, so could you point me to it?

      Reply
    • Was just wondering the same thing as Nick Beard. Did it come from that well known source, pulledoutofmyass.com?

      Again with the anecdotal experience, but I get a little miffed at people informing me that my beloved parents (with whom I still have a wonderful relationship) gave me a substandard upbringing purely because one of them didn’t stay at home full time. Though what would I know, I am obviously not rounded enough as a person to contribute to the discussion.

      Reply
    • Yikes… I’m going to go ahead and assume that’s directed at Sean. As I don’t think working parents are any less capable, or devoted to their children, than ones where one or both stay at home. On the contrary I think children flourish in the most unlikely of circumstances, once they feel loved and supported and their physical and emotional needs are accommodated.

      Reply
    • Don’t worry, totally directed at Sean’s “It is widely accepted that children do better with a parent looking after them.”

      I thought your point about heteronormative was quite a good one, in fact!

      Reply
  • Lisa.
    I’m expressing a view point and I have never once brought your parents in to this. You by all accounts have had wonderful parents and that is great but you brought then in to this debate, not me. I expressed no judgement on them and have no desire to think otherwise as you suggest.
    If we were discussing probably any other issue there wouldn’t be such resentment of expression.
    I am not criticising all childminders as you may suggest. I am speaking generically. I am saying on balance, children are better being looked after by a parent. That is my view and would be the view of most parenting gurus.
    If you take for example a crèche.
    Many parents say its great because the child meets friends and wouldn’t have the same interaction at home. I don’t agree. I think many children up and down the country are in crèches from 8am till 5pm or later 5 days a week at 2 yrs of age. I don’t think that is as good as being at home with a parent and going for walks in the park, having a nap in a quiet room etc.
    Where am I wrong in that?
    Does it upset some people and get them thinking. Maybe.
    Should I be more reserved in expressing my opinion? Possibly.
    But isn’t this the reason we are on here? I have never made any specific offensive comment about any individual. I am a male and I am a father. Would I have a man as a baby sitter? No. Why? Because most sexual abuse is carried out by men.
    An I accusing my male friends or family members of being abusers? No.

    I digress here but what I am saying is I make decisions on what I feel is the overall best practice. Some kids do wonderfully well with child minders. Some kids do better without the parents they have been born with.
    There are so many variables.
    I completely understand that many mothers (mothers would be the ones who tend to stay at home) need to work from a financial point of view.
    Many also want to continue to work and I understand that. We are what we are, mothers, fathers and we face these choices.
    This was never about making a judgement about working mothers.
    There was a comment above from some working mother feeling the stay at home mothers at the school were making a judgement about her.
    That’s exactly what it is, a feeling.
    It would be very very rare for somebody to make such a judgement to your face.
    If I am guilty of saying something I didn’t say or thinking something I didn’t think or judging somebody I didn’t judge then that is beyond my control.

    I believe it’s good to debate these things.

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    • “I am not criticising all childminders as you may suggest. I am speaking generically. I am saying on balance, children are better being looked after by a parent. That is my view and would be the view of most parenting gurus.”

      Actually the only parenting guru I can think of that would say that is that lunatic Oliver James, who also believes that no toddler would misbehave if he/she had one-on-one supervision 24 hours a day (thus presumably preventing any family from having more than one child, or two if they happen to have an independent source of income) and that postnatal depression should be treated with Freudian analysis. Many experts would suggest that it’s best for *babies* to just have one-on-one care from a parent, but when you’re talking about a 3-year-old…

      And of course you didn’t make any offensive comments about any individual. You just made a sweeping generalization about The Very Best Way To Parent, In Your Opinion, But Nobody Could Argue With it, Could They, It’s Just Common Sense, and are now getting all aghast when the parents and children in question are saying “actually, no, we did it a different way and it was fine, and we’re a bit insulted by your suggestion that our way is somehow inherently worse than your way”.

      I am also amused by your implication that you are somehow the first person to “bravely” bring this topic up or that no working parent would EVER have “got thinking” about the issue if you hadn’t weighed in with your opinion. Are you expecting someone on this discussion to slap their forehead and go “Of COURSE! I’ve been wrong all along! That man on the internet said that it was just inarguable common sense that my toddler is worse off in creche, and now that I think about it, he must be right! Look, he’s got green thumbs-ups and everything! I’m going to give up my job this minute! Screw the mortgage!”?

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    • Also I’m sure the male childcare worker who posted upthread will be delighted to read that your “common sense” includes not letting him look after your children.

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    • Most of the time when people discuss best practice, it’s something that has actually been born out in any kind of study, but I’m just totally baffled by your idea that generally, children with full time homemaker parents do better. It’s just not based in realistic fact.

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  • Ok Nick. I’ll respect your views on this given your expertise. Would you have a male baby sitter or a better way of putting this question ‘would you prefer a female baby sitter?

    I know we are going off thread here but I think it’s important to show how opinion can skew the argument.
    I accept your finding that abuse is most likely to be carried out by an older brother but remember the adage of ‘lies, damn lies and statistics’.
    This statistic skews the real risks because the family member has greater contact with the abused. It doesn’t mean a family member is a greater threat than a non family member.
    Remember the non family member baby sitter may also have a young sister.

    Sorry, I completely digress.
    Getting back to the issue of evidence on whether a child is better being looked after by a parent or not the best we can have is views of respected ‘experts’. Experts is not a word in comfortable with. My view is shared by David Coleman for example. But he also understands some mothers / fathers need to or want to work.

    I am expressing my opinion but am disappointed by the onslaught.

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    • Not Nick, but I would happily have a male child care worker look after my son. My male cousin trained in early years care, is brilliant with kids, and simply couldn’t get a job in the field because too many parents shared your “common sense” that he was more likely to abuse their children. That was back in the eighties, I hope things have changed a bit since then.

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  • I do.

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  • Any man or woman who can afford it and wants to can stay at home with their kids. No quibble with that.

    As for quotas, I don’t think they are needed in business but they are necessary if women are ever to be fairly represented in government. After all women are not a minority, they are 50% of the population and what we have right now is a very much an old boys club that women largely (and wisely?) avoid.
    Quotas worked in Scandinavia so why not here? Without them my 3 month old daughter and indeed her daughters will have come and gone before women are properly represented. Yes, we could allow it to happen “naturally” and wait hundreds of years but to be frank, women have waited long enough (circa several hundred thousand years!).

    With things as they are, my daughter will grow up seeing predominantly male politicians and when famous women are on the telly, the majority (not all, but most) will appear because they are in showbiz not because they are in power. My daughter needs role models. She needs to see that we are equal, not just be told it.

    Finally, problematic childcare services, both in cost (its not tax deductible!) and availability, along with outdated work practices (established when it was all men with wives at home!) are preventing or discouraging mothers who wish to resume their careers after having a child. Our society, our economy and our businesses are suffering the loss of these people in the workplace.
    It is simply a falsehood to say that women have achieved gender equality. Have a good look around. Absolutely nothing wrong with a man or woman staying home with kids, but how many women are not participating fully in our society because they just don’t want to fight that fight? Alone in a boardroom with 20 men? Or the only woman on a committee? And who can blame them? You could waste your whole life banging your head against a glass ceiling. The only problem is someone has to do it if there is ever to be change. Quotas for TDs would be great and relatively painless way make a huge stride forward in our lifetime.

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  • Lisa.
    Nick (whose views concur with yours) stated that the evidence shows the most likely to abuse would be an older brother.
    He didn’t say an older sister.
    No, brother = male.

    I’m speaking against my own gender but you seem to think my views are 80′s and somehow dated.
    I applaud your desire to be positive and modern but you will find the facts back up my views.
    Ask Nick.

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  • I’m sorry my ‘common sense’ is so out of touch. Maybe common sense is not so common. And before I am accused of making an accusation about your cousin be absolutely clear I am not.
    We tell our kids not to take lifts with strangers. Why? Are we assuming all strangers are a danger and only those people we know are safe. No.
    It’s an assesment thing.
    Not a judgement, an assesment.
    The type of assesment we all make every day of the week. If somebody approaches you walking down the street to ask you something we make an assesment.
    How are they dressed?
    Young old?
    Clean?
    Drunk, sober?

    We make assesments all the time.
    We are more likely to lock our doors driving in certain areas. Of course I would be guilty of making a major judgement on everybody I encounter every day. No, it’s called street wise.
    I’m not judging anybody but I’m not prepared to take certain risks.

    People working with the homeless or people with substance dependency take certain precautions.
    Are they making a judgement?

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  • How about using single mums on state assistance, to do childcare and bring in their own child also. One or two days a week, the rest of the week they could work part-time or train to provide childcare and have the state do this. That way, mums could help each other out and cost of childcare would come down. Try it anyway?

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  • Oops.
    Looks like I’ve hit a nerve.
    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that hired help can or will have the same vested interest in the child they are minding as a parent will.
    As for the statement I made ‘widely accepted’. I would have thought common sense.
    Those of you that do school pick ups have a look at the parents and the child minder. Who is holding the child’s hand near a busy road and who is texting?
    It’s not one size fits all, of course there are bad parents and bad child minders .

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    • And this comes from what, academic studies about how most child deaths occur in a childminders care? It’s insulting to a hardworking, caring group of individuals to generalise that they don’t look after or care for, children in their charge. Of course you’ve hit a nerve, you are basically looking down upon a lot of parents who love their children.

      It is certainly not common sense that a parents should be at home with a child. It is FAR from the most important factor in how a child develops and there are plenty of positives to be gained from working parents (strong role models, a sense of pride in their work, independence and self sufficiency) which can outweigh the negatives.

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  • I working mothers or fathers are SO confident they are doing the RIGHT thing then why the sensitivity?
    I have my views which stand up.
    Perhaps it is guilt and an uncertainty which prevails.
    You are right, I have hit a nerve, but it’s not my nerve.

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    • “I working mothers or fathers are SO confident they are doing the RIGHT thing then why the sensitivity?” I’m the child of a working parent and you are basically insulting their decisions.

      “I have my views which stand up.” – Well, yeah, as you’ve made it clear that you use absolutely no form of measurement. But you have no basis in reality.

      “Perhaps it is guilt and an uncertainty which prevails. You are right, I have hit a nerve, but it’s not my nerve.” – Hint, most parents do their absolute best for their children and women are faced with a variety of guilt for tiny things.

      I’m not a working parent, so I’m not at all sure why you think you’ve “touched a nerve?” In fact, it tends to be people who forcefully insist that their choices are the only right ones who have a raw nerve.

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    • Um, the “sensitivity” is because you are making completely ungrounded sweeping generalizations about people like my parents and yeah, maybe I’m a wee bit tetchy about that because I’m really proud of them and spent my childhood being told things like “your mother is taking a job away from a man”, etc. (seriously!) You’re also insulting childcare workers like the lovely childminder I had when I was little (we’re still in touch) and the “hired help” in the playschool my son goes to.

      I don’t feel racked with guilt for being a working parent, much as you might feel I ought to. I don’t feel like I should be at home full time. I don’t think it would be “best practice” for me or my family. Sorry if that disturbs your “one size fits all” view of childcare or mothers or whatever.

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    • Also, y’know, if lots of people disagree with you on something, it doesn’t always mean they SECRETLY THINK YOU’RE TELLING THE TRUTH BUT ARE TOO GUILTY TO ADMIT IT. Sometimes it just means you’re spouting nonsense.

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  • What is wrong with making informed assesments? Insurance companies do this all the time. They say if you are under 25, male, you are going to drive like a lunatic.
    Are they wrong in making an assesment that a male 20 is more likely to speed, drink drive etc than a girl of the same age?
    How dare they?
    Well, that’s life.
    These are the facts.
    It is not the same as saying every 20 yr old male is wreckless in a car or every female is sensible.

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  • So now I am guilty of a personal attack on the male child care worker above?
    I dont remember questioning ‘his’ suitability. I made my choice.

    Where is this discussion going.
    Slapping heads in enlightenment talk.
    You are fighting accusations that have never been made. Not paying your mortgage? Pay it if you want. What has that got to do with it?
    I never asked you to stop paying it.

    I get back again to the point of the male child care worker. This is important. You are turning this in to some sort of slight on that individual by me. No. It’s an issue in having a male baby sitter. I say that as a man.
    And excuse me for the issue of abuse to cross my mind but I live in the real world. I’m not suggesting a particular male would be a risk but I’m not prepared to take a risk.
    Pardon me for living in the real world.

    Again. I must emphasis I am expressing my views. If you have contempt for them that is fine but please don’t twist this into some slight on your parents or any others. I gave never done that.

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    • I don’t think you’re slighting my parents. It’s fine to express an opinion, but just make it clear that it’s not in any way based on any kind of evidence or proven fact and that’s fair enough.

      I work with a lot of CSA survivors myself and I do hope you know that the most common sexual abuser of young girls is a brother (according to the NSPCC). While it’s fine to be mindful of any kind of carer, I hope you apply the same vigilance to family members, who are more likely to be the abusers.

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    • As I said above, I don’t think you’re personally slighting anybody in the sense that you’re not actually saying “Nick and Lisa’s parents did a terrible job, specific poster X is a neglectful parent, specific poster Y is an abuser”, but I do think you’re being a bit disingenous if you think you’re not being potentially offensive to anyone who doesn’t share your “views that any reasonable person in the real world would share” about those particular groups of people, risk, responsibility, etc. Especially as you’ve admitted that they’re not based on anything except your gut instinct that they’re right.

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  • Nick.
    I never generalised.
    I made it very clear there are bad parents and bad child minders.
    I am talking about ‘best practice’.
    I am not looking down on anybody.
    The issue here may be the sensitivity of working mothers who feel deep down that they feel they should be at home but need to or want to work.

    Your parents are your parents ant it is better to be looked after a parent than hired help, generally.
    This can not be backed up by statistics as it is immeasurable. There is no way to measure it. Read my posts again. I never criticised or made a judgement on working parents. I made a judgement on ‘some’ child minders.

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