A red C poll no doubt! He doesn’t need to back it up! The mood of the current establishment are with him…:-(

They are the same type of People who watch movies like “Michael Collins” and “Braveheart” and take them to be 100% historical facts, the damage that Neil Jordan movie “Michael Collins” did to Irish history is practically irreversible.

Dead true, the amount of people who’d write that deV was crying in a shed and ordered Collins to be shot in the Leaving Cert. Its a joke!

Read a book? By whom?

They fought for the British to stop the Germans doing the very same thing that the British had been doing for 700 years, conquesting the weak, slaughtering the innocent, and stealing land and liberty. The British and the Germans are 2 different sides of the same imperialistic coin. And don`t think I am being easy on the Germans they were exactly as bad as the British, the common British/Irish men and the common German men in the bog standard army should have just used their rifles to kill their own leaders and went home, it would have solved all the worlds problems.

Everybody thumb up Gary Sétanta Heary. Comment of the week!!!

Might I also add that the Germans learned a hell of a lot from the British, for example, the first use of concentration camps was by the British, The British used concentration camps in the second Boer war (1880-1881) to imprison countless Boer woman and children in an attempt to eradicate the Boer people. The Germans just copied them, so keep that in mind when anyone else tries to praise the British for stopping another race of people from doing the same thing that they tried to do.

Desertion is a serious crime during wartime. It is a hostile act to the state and other countries always treated it as a capital offense. Here it was not which was lucky for them.

They got their break 60 years ago, when they weren’t individually tried and sentence. People who were not in the defense forces but who joined other armies were not affected this. Then again they hadn’t walked away from their country, leaving the army in disarray.

What’s a stupid comment Gary. The Irish served not only in the British army but in the American .australian and new Zealand army. And it was to fight fascism much like those Irish who went fighting fascism in Spain .

It still could Gary, it still could.

Gary, seriously , you need to read up on Irish history thoroughly. It really really isnt as black and white as “doing the same thing the British had been doing for 700 years”. We have an incredibly complex history that goes far deeper than the equivalent of the Nazi regime.

Brian the last thing I need to do is to study Irish history, if you want a debate ask for one, don`t just vaguely insult my intelligence, it`s pathetic, now what do you want to debate specifically ?

What Gary and others fail to remember .While Ireland was part of the united kingdom. Irish and Scottish people were some of the best colonialists the empire had. Many many Irish served in the british army .Many Irish moved to India , south Africa and other colonies and there they farmed. Set up trade and companies. The Irish while always being Irish didn’t exactly have a clean slate when it came to the British empire we took full benefits of what it had to offer. While many here will try to dispute this . The history of counties like Burma India and Kenya recognise the Irish connection to British colonial history. The Irish had a somewhat dual loyalty for many years while always striving for independence ,royal visits etc were warmly welcomed here. The last royal visit to cork before the queens was warmly welcomes by loyalist and republicans alike .let us discuss the Pale another day who were known as jackeens for their love of waving the union jack

Barry Williams – Your cheery revisionism of Irish history is unsettling, have you never heard of “To hell or to Connaught!” thousands of Irish people were displaced from their homes, like the Irish who were sold as slaves to the Carribeann and others pushed to the furthest reaches of the British Empire to facilitate a forced union and serve as cheap labour to fill British coffers, while the British divided up confiscated Irish lands and built decadent mansions that they could retreat too for their holidays, while the Irish population that were not displaced lived in abject slavery around them. They didn`t sail off to far flung colonial outposts to gruel and toil skipping along whistling

It should also be pointed out that the Irish forces in WW1 suffered the highest losses per capita of any people, followed by the Scots. The Scots in the modern British army are the new walking sandbags, bravely allowing the enemy to empty their magazine clips in to them. Then again too many corpses going back to the “home counties” was never politically popular and that is what the hired help are for.

Poor deluded fools.

Love that comment of cannonfodder turning on their leaders and going home. Always knew one can’t love a despot to death but that comment is class Gary The fact ye find it so objectional shows how easy it is to lead fools!!! Flucking love that comment.

Tim
Although I agree with most of what you post on this site I would just like to make the point that deserters are not in general treated well or respected when in action. Turncoats and conscripts are not trusted and are wherever possible considered dispensable in favour of the regular soldier. This is a long established fact of armed combat and was a feature of many engagements – Waterloo being a particular case in point.
You do have a point though that other factors may also be considered in this like nationality, race etc.

Reada im really getting worried about you, what brigade are you attached to. I have never seen so many comments in support of the RA from one person.

How dare you Randy. You have never seen such a thing ever. I know my history and I  look at it from a human perspective with a bit of understanding. As a pacifist how could I be in a brigade. 

It’s hilarious how all the personal accusations come from your side of the fence. Plenty more here below from “cute little profile pics”. All in bad taste!

But after reading your comments for the past few months on racist threads, immigrant threads, social welfare, capital punishment, etc, etc, and then reading your comments re the heroes defecting to fight fascism………. That’s what brings a wry smile back to my face…. Try looking in the mirror!!!

But thanks for that little joke Randy. Next time try to put your brain in gear first. 

Reada you clearly have an obsession with the British and yes im fairly right wing but would obviously stop at the point of invading countries and gasing people for their religion. I do agree with deporting foreign criminals having some control on immigration and capital punishment for some offences and am very much on the laws side with regard to crime. Peace out comrade Reada the cause thanks you :)

@ Gary, your ultra-nationalist view point is pretty worrying but that aside you really should check your history before posting. The second boer war was not 1880 -81, it was 1899 -1902.

You are right about the British using concentration camps in South Africa, they were the initiative of an Irish man – Lord Kitchener (born just outside Listowel in Co. Kerry). They shouldn’t be confused though with extermination or ‘death camps’ such as Auscwitz II or Treblinka. The objective of the British concentration camps in South Africa was to prevent the freedom of movement to Boer commandos whose operations relied on the support of ordinary Boer families. Despicable as these camps were, they are not comparable to the Nazi extermination camps whose sole purpose was ethnic cleansing.

I sincerely hope that these men who deserted to fight the Nazis are granted their much deserved and long overdue pardon. Irish men fought not only in the British but in practically every Allied force during WWII.

Ah. Do I want to get into this? Agree with much of what you’re saying there Gary. But. Sorry. Would you agree that death camps – you know, gas chambers, “Dr” Mengele and all that, was a bit of a step up from the British prototype in Southern Africa?

On the question of desertion and joining up with the allies to fight fascism. Do you see any moral equivalence between that and those who joined the international brigade in Spain a few years earlier?

Boys with guns here. What’s the craic?

We were the ONLY state to sympathise with the German people when Hitler died.

Just goes to show how demented Dev really was.

Why is it a sensitive issue? Our dictator , our very own Franco took cruel revenge on those who dared to think for themselves and didn’t comply with Dev’s vision for a catholic Gaelic Ireland.

These men like the 50,000 Irish men who died in WW1 And the many others who fought in WWii deserve to have their history re written, fairly.

If you found ulster men supporting a Protestant state for a Protestant people you must find this equally repulsive.

“Our dictator,our own Franco”? You can`t be talking about our democratically elected leader.

These men betrayed Ireland by deserting our army and should never be pardoned.

Ah the cult of Hitchens continues. Once prophet Hitchens tells the Flock what to think independent thought is unneeded, and undesired.

Hitchens is playing to the Protestant bigotry of Dawkins and his whiggish cult here. German fascism – i.e. Nazzism was uniquely different from Catholic fascism in that it killed vastly more people and was influenced, if by any Christian religion, by Protestantism and Lutheranism. It was also influcend by secularism and paganism. There was no Catholic influence.

Germany is primarily a protestant country. In the Triumph of the Will the only Christian who turns up is a protestant Luteran Vicar – leader of the German Patriotric Church. Despite the supposed anti-semitism of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Fascist State of Spain was where you went to escape Europe, were you Jewish. Italy had no anti-Semitic laws until it was invaded by the Nazis. The supposed “anti-semitism” of Ireland is over-done too – but it’s typical sleveen cant. When Germany – and lots of Europe – were bringing in actual anti-Semitic laws or voting for anti-Semitic parties the Irish state acknowledged Judaism in it’s constitution and would go on to elect Jewish mayors of Cork and Dublin ( Jews at far less than 1% of the population).

The Catholics in Germany didn’t vote for the Nazzis. Germans in Catholic areas opposed the Nazzis and there was a Catholic party – the Centre party – whose vote did not decline in the elections which saw the Nazzis come to power. It was therefore, protestant, or secular conservatives who transferred from traditional parties and voted for Nazzism.

To be fair hitchens in not denying any of this, (he is assuming the Hitchens/Dawkins cult would assume that all fascists are equally racist). The SS thing is nonsense. We have already established that Germany is a Protestant nations – something the cult of Dawkins/Hitchens seems to be unaware of – and it did not have any reference to God on it’s uniform – it is from this claimed link that Dawkins has created his link to Catholicism ( German protestantism is written out of history, apparently).

Dawkins tells his cult that the SS had ” In God we trust” on its lapels. It didn’t The normal army had that phrase, the SS had a deaths head. Lastly when the Germans invaded Poland it killed 90% of the Catholic clergy. Not very pro-Catholic, then, really.

As for Catholic fascism, Spain was – as a fascist nation – less racist than America, or the British Empire. An Empire if we recall, which included Rhodesia, South Africa, White run India ( etc. etc. etc.) and was based on white supremacy. America – just finished it’s own land grab of Indian land, the first Lebensraum , would have Jim Crow laws for one more generation. The Catholic fascists weren’t as racist as most democracies ranged against them, only the Germans came close.

In 1939 the holocaust was not yet planned, never mind in action.

It’s worth reading actual history books Will, not just parroting the head of your cult.

Ah the cult of Hitchens continues. Once prophet Hitchens tells the Flock what to think independent thought is unneeded, and undesired.

Hitchens is playing to the Protestant bigotry of Dawkins and his whiggish cult here. German fascism – i.e. Nazzism was uniquely different from Catholic fascism in that it killed vastly more people and was influenced, if by any Christian religion, by Protestantism and Lutheranism. It was also influcend by secularism and paganism. There was no Catholic influence.

Germany is primarily a protestant country. In the Triumph of the Will the only Christian who turns up is a protestant Luteran Vicar – leader of the German Patriotric Church. Despite the supposed anti-semitism of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Fascist State of Spain was where you went to escape Europe, were you Jewish. Italy had no anti-Semitic laws until it was invaded by the Nazis. The supposed “anti-semitism” of Ireland is over-done too – but it’s typical sleveen cant. When Germany – and lots of Europe – were bringing in actual anti-Semitic laws or voting for anti-Semitic parties the Irish state acknowledged Judaism in it’s constitution and would go on to elect Jewish mayors of Cork and Dublin ( Jews at far less than 1% of the population).

The Catholics in Germany didn’t vote for the Nazis. Germans in Catholic areas opposed the Nazis and there was a Catholic party – the Centre party – whose vote did not decline in the elections which saw the Nazis come to power. It was therefore, protestant, or secular conservatives who transferred from traditional parties and voted for Nazism.

To be fair Hitchens was not denying any of this, (he is assuming the Hitchens/Dawkins cult would assume that all fascists are equally racist). The SS thing is nonsense. We have already established that Germany is a Protestant nation – something the cult of Dawkins/Hitchens seems to be unaware of. Itt did not have any reference to God on it’s uniform – it is from this a claimed link to God on their uniform that Dawkins has created his link to Catholicism ( German protestantism is written out of history, apparently).

Dawkins tells his cult that the SS had ” In God we trust” on its lapels. It didn’t The normal army had that phrase ( since Bismark); the SS had a deaths head. Lastly when the Germans invaded Poland they killed 90% of the Catholic clergy. Not very pro-Catholic, then, really.

As for Catholic fascism, Spain was – as a fascist nation – less racist than America, or the British Empire. An Empire if we recall, which included Rhodesia, South Africa, White run India ( etc. etc. etc.) and was based on white supremacy. America – just finished it’s own land grab of Indian land, the first Lebensraum , would have Jim Crow laws for one more generation. Austria had eliminated most Aboriginals, and had a white only immigration policy. Canada was mopping up the last of it’s First Nations.

The Catholic fascists weren’t anywhere near as racist as most democracies ranged against them, only the (protestant) Germans came close to the Anglo-Saxon democracies in that department.

In 1939 the holocaust was not yet planned, never mind in action. Ireland kept out of a European war for noble reasons – small countries have to defend themselves, and stay out of the imperial ambitions of racist empires in conflict.

It’s worth reading actual history books Will, not just parroting the head of your cult.

Eoin
I don’t disagree with the protestant nature of the Nazi regime and the persecution of catholic priests in Poland and to a lesser extent elsewhere is a matter of historical fact.
If your point above is to deny that the Roman Church acted in collusion with the Nazis, especially during the latter half of WW2, it’s there I fail to agree. It’s also an historical fact that the Roman Church colluded with the Nazis throughout Europe and assisted in the secret transportation of war criminals to Latin America to avoid prosecution.
In the light of the persecution of many Roman priests throughout occupied Europe this was an especially foul and self serving arrangement which in fact has typified the attitude of the Roman Church during many crisis in Europe.

Looking back in anger Patrick?
Something about patriotism and scoundrels comes to mind.

:) I’m not looking back in anger. I just think that the treatment that these men got was entirely appropriate. What if we had been invaded? 5,000 experienced and trained men would have gone a long way.

Biggest load of rubbish I’ve ever read on this and that takes some doing given some of the other comments on this thread alone. Go visit a concentration camp, speak to some people who actually suffered under the Nazis and lose those republican blinkers and see the world like it really was. Anyone who honestly thinks Ireland should have stayed neutral or supported Germany is deserving of as much respect as David Irving ie. none.

@ Patrick, Job done then, these 5000 fought to prevent an invasion.

Is it just the fact that they deserted to the British Army that bothers you Patrick, or that they broke Military Law? Serious question, as adherence to “Military Law” (with no moral culpability), is basically what was used in the Nuremberg defence. I know you mightn’t mean it in that strict “legal” way in this case, but I’d never call someone a traitor for doing what they think is morally right. Your conscience first, country second.

Personally, I would praise anyone – Irish or not – who fought against facism, whether they where in the International Brigades, deserters to foreign armies, or, today, the antifas that stand up to the likes of the EDL (and the pathetic Stormfront/Celtic Wolves).

@Richard Ireland was far from neutral. British soldiers who accidentally landed in the Free State were dropped across the border, German ones were kept in POW camps. Ireland also shared radar and weather info with Britain. Ireland needed to protect itself from Germany (and Britain). We would have been destroyed had we declared war on Germany. Plain and simple.

@Chopper I have no problem with Irish civillians who fought Germany. I have a major issue with Irish soldiers who abscond at a time where they are direly needed.

@Patrick Fair enough, wasn’t sure if it was an anti-Brit sentiment, or harsh (?) interpretation of law, you were expressing. (Agree about our “neutrality” btw, but don’t about the 5000 “experienced and trained” men making a difference – there were more hurleys than bullets in the Irish Army at that time.)

Completely agree with you. Dev was merciful, they’d have been shot anywhere else.

Pathetic point if view. Splinters on ur arse hurting yet…

Just a few points. Firstly I’m not talking about “following orders”. I’m talking military law. The law that states that desertion is an offence. Secondly, you say that these men are heroes for fighting Germany. Fascism was/is pernicious and evil. But these men left their country open and vulnerable to attack from outside and from within to fight in the Armed Forces of a nation that was planning an invasion. I’m sure that the lovely pension entitlements that came with a period in his Majesty’s service were attractive enough to them. And thirdly, so de Valera was a “traitor”. Are you talking about de Valera the 1916 veteran, the War of Independence leader, the man who fought Collins’ partition of Ireland, the man who achieved, protected and preserved Ireland’s sovereignty from Britain, the man who gave the vast majority of his life in the service of his country, or are you talking about some other de Valera?

WillLynch
The defense of following orders as put before the Nuremburg Trials was rightly dismissed as the orders being so faithfully followed were against defenseless, unarmed, civilians who were being systemically murdered. This is not comparable with the requirement to obey orders given in disciplined properly engaged military operation where the neglect to obey such orders puts the lives of your comrades and those who you have sworn to protect at risk.
The rest of your comment re. the relationship of the Roman Church and Nazism I wholeheartedly agree with and have mentioned in posts here many times the involvement of the Roman Church in the concealment and transportation of Nazi war criminals to Latin America (rat lines) for example.

Not one to defend Dev but he and Hitler were hardly buddies. Ireland faced a threat of being invaded by Germany too. Think Dev made it quite clear whose side we were on in WEII.

I suppose that you are right on that one but there was a relationship. with Germany.I am not saying that De Valeria and Hitler were Bosom buddies but as I said there was a Kind of relationship between the two in the early days of Hitler’s reign. The fact that Britain was a war with Germany was i think doing Ireland a favour in that scenario with relations with Britain at an all time low as a result of the 1916 rising. Anyone who was against Britain was good in Ireland’s eyes.

Don’t forget that up until 1938, Britain wasn’t hostile to Germany at all and facilitated it in breaking many of the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles.

Technically they did not desert. That is like saying technically I did not turn up to work for the last three years, don’t fire me or hold me accountable. Technically speaking of course.

De velera on good terms with Hitler come on. De velera was the only one able to face down Churchill. Ireland was on the side of the allies there is no question about that.

Francis, Réada,

I think the two may have had a closer relationship that one would like to be remembered for. De Valera couldn’t wait to sign the book of condolences for hitler.

We are judging through the lens of history, which gives a great insight, much greater than hearsay and tittle-tattle.

I couldn’t care less about Dev. I wish he hadn’t signed the book of condolences. But it wasn’t the biggest mistake he made. He made many others too. Turning on his fellow Irishmen was a much worse crime imo.

Sick of this sh!t about the book of condolences. To quote a fav on Journal. Get Over It!

Nice one. To quote your other debating skills ‘quick all click thumbs up’ – very articulate – I don’t know what you mean turning on fellow Irish men. Who are you talking about?

Oh Darren. In my experience these threads are fast and furious. Gary’s comment flashed off the page for me. Cannonfodder turning on their generals and leaders is like music to a pacifist’s ears. I know you can’t love a despot to death so I understand that you might sometimes have to use some kind of violence.

But Dev shooting republicans from 6 counties who were only carrying on where he fell off is what I’m referring to in case you missed that dirty bit of history we have!

But Darren I accept that wasn’t my finest comment. We all make mistakes. Mine wasn’t as bad as signing a book of condolences so forgive me that mad moment. :-( I don’t like being told what to do either.

Oki doki Réada. Well you can sign mine if you want, lol.

Do not ever call me a racist again as I am far far from, if you can`t talk down your opponent Jeff just insult him with childish names is it Jeff ? I don`t know how you came to that conclusion unless the word has a new definition now. Upwards of 30,000 Boer woman and children were killed in British (Detention or concentration or whatever you want to brand them as )camps, and yes indeed many many Irish men fought FOR the Boers Against the British army, then came back to Ireland and fought in the Easter Rising FOR the Irish Volunteer Force AGAINST the British army.

Jeff, i think it is you who needs to read a bit of history. Please provide a link showing that Dev supported the Nazis either before or during the war. What he did do was to stand up to the bully Churchill. Dev`s biggest mistake was signing the book of condolence but i believe that this was done because he was an inexperienced leader of a fledging state.