The recession happened.

he is a liar

he is a liar

Morals are not situational. Something is either wrong or right.

They are relative though. He’s got a choice to tax homeowners or make cuts elsewhere. Would you rather further cuts to the carers allowance?

I would rather see cuts to politicians over inflated wages

Everyone would. It’s not going to pay for anything though. It’s like trying to pay a mortgage by fishing for coins down the back of your couch. If that’s all the money we needed it we’d be sorted.

For reference. Property tax in France, 444e to 1162e. In Italy, approximately 0.4 to 0.7% of the value of the property. In Belgium, approximately 2000e. In England, 850GBP to 2550. In Germany, 0.35% of the value of the property.

The Irish property tax is dwarfed by these, and our household income is comparable or greater. Yeah, it’s still shitty, but these are shitty times. We’re not going to wish our way out of it. If someone’s got a better idea, I’m all ears.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0904/1224323571988.html

Jayk they get free medical, education and garbage and water in most of them countries along with loads of other free incentives and a cheaper place to live and enjoy. WE GET NOTHING! WE GET NOTHING!!!….Understand a little better now why people are not going to pay this now???

JayK your not comparing like for like though are you? Care to detail what the property tax covers in those other countries? I all ready pay bin charges – not covered by Kenny’s theft. Our neighbours get free school books covered under their property tax – not covered by Kenny’s theft. Just 2 of the top of my head can you supply or anyone else supply more advantages to the property tax?

Deep breaths Martin, don’t hurt yourself.

Firstly, either they don’t get them free or we get them free too. Secondly, if they pay less for tuition but more for property then it’s not free, is it? The money has to come from somewhere.

I always hold Scandinavia up as a model society. Everything is “free” there. But the taxes are sky-high. It’s positively socialist.

To Kerry; it doesn’t necessarily cover anything. Often it’s at the discretion of the local authority. It’s all in the article I linked to. Glancing through the France section, their property tax doesn’t include extra taxes for rubbish collection, street cleaning (!) and water.

The advantage of the property tax is it stops the country from going bust. Your property tax might not be used on your street, but when we’re cutting things like carers allowances then it’s going to help somewhere.

@Jayk How much did those countries pay in stap duty? Ull find its Zero or next to nothing. If you want to compare our tax to other european countries then how about corporation tax?

It’s turning in to whack-a-mole now. First people were angry at the property tax, but I pointed out it’s less than the rest of Europe. Then they were angry because it doesn’t cover bins and water, but it doesn’t cover that anywhere. Now it’s because of the stamp duty (it’s 50% more in Sweden, 500% more on the UK).

Now don’t get too upset, but have you considered the fact that you just want to be angry, logic be damned?

@ JayK we are cutting careers allowances because next year we will pay €5.1 billion to Anglo and Irish nationwide and for no other reason then that.

If we pay that bond.. People will down tools and take to the streets.. Which part of “unsecured bond” do those tosser TDs not understand ! :-/

Remember Enda is a politician. Everything he says is bound to be suspect. Nobody is convinced and we should just hope that by some miracle a new breed of public representative will emerge and make politics respectable.

@JayK. Home ownership is extraordinarily high in Ireland so the analogy that a property tax that works elsewhere can’t be applied here.

This is the adult version of vat on children’s shoes

@Plato
I wouldn’t get my hopes up! Nobody cared last year, or the year before, or the year before so I doubt they’ll care this year or the next few. Out of the last few budgets this isn’t even the worst, not even close!

In Sweden PAYE is 48% no added USC or prsi nonsense. At the moment if I get a €100 extra next week I’m on higher rate so ill get €49 & €51 to the government. Sweden also get a detailed report every year town by town of where their taxes have gone.

@ Anne. Very nicely put.

Enda, Gilmore, Rabbitte – they’re all sold out. Kenny is a fake, a lame ‘Premier’ parading for himself and the EU. What damage FF did is now being exacerbated by an equally inept, corrupt and traitorous bunch. The EU is our problem.

Oh Kenny can’t wait for the next general election you snake ..

Property tax will be abolished at the next election if people give the alternative parties a mandate. Taxes on the top 10% are at a 20 year low. The top 10% of own 80% of the country. They can pay to keep the lights on.

Jayk I don’t think it’s necessarily anger at the tax rates or who has the cheapest, just frustration in general. A high% of people are barely making ends meet and to add €300+ (the lowest band) onto yearly bills is going to be tough for a lot of people. Add onto that the soon to be here water charges which could go up to €400 per household may just be impossible for many. Yes the property tax may seem like a fair % to an outsider but when people here are just about getting by it’s a lot of money to take at what seems like the worst possible time. Regarding the politicians wages, they need to be cut now..it all helps and you can bet it’s more than we all think but whatever it is it’s only fair and much of the anger of the people stems from this. Why do we pay/suffer when they don’t? Maybe the 17.4 million they’re using to improve a children’s detention center could be taken from their wages rather than punish say the care givers or farmers.

@all… good points Jayk. .. I live in Belgium … pay 50% effective tax on my income, 1200 per year on property tax, we pay bins, we also pay about 10% higher for electricity and gas than our neighbours etc. similar cost categories to Ireland. yes, if you go to the doctor it doesn’t cost much, but we still have to pay for medical insurance. we are also purposely over-taxed by the government so they get more tax in and then they play with the time it takes to claim that tax back (1 – 2) years… I have done the comparison numerous times between Ireland and Belgium and would have about 20% more net income in Ireland than here (all included). After this budget the difference would go down slightly – but you still pay less in Ireland. also then doing our tax returns here you nearly always need an accountant because it is so complex. people who say it’s better outside of Ireland need to look at the facts – it’s difficult everywhere at the moment…

How dare you point that out!

We don’t want facts, nor reason,we want revolution and anarchy.

@Arbitrasure, indeed it’s apparent that people would prefer to rant rather than look at the situation objectively – it’s amazing that I have more dislikes on the previous comment on likes – when I’m just stating facts and my guess is that those who disliked my comment probably have never experienced life outside Ireland… I posted another comment this morning giving some examples of the other taxes we pay: living tax( if you’re alive, you pay), Rain tax (for the rain tha falls on your roof), our water is metered and because rain goes into the drains we also have to pay extra tax for that – so rain is taxed twice…. Belgians are masters at this – they have taxes for everything …

Steph, I agree with everything you said. I’m not trying to present the tax as fantastic or morally flawless. But the complaints on here are becoming ridiculous. You’d swear the government was kicking down their door and pawning their heirlooms. The indignation is based on either hollow populist nonsense or simply fallacies.

If you want to change something, your argument at least has to be loosely associated with reality. The bondholders are being paid back. Deal with it, move on, it’s not going to change. Otherwise you’re going to waste your energy banging your head against a wall. Pick something else.

Finally, don’t get swept up in the mob mentality. Analyse the situation yourself and decide what’s justified and not justified. Research the facts. Half the complaints in this thread were dismantled by spending 2 minutes on Google. No one’s going to take you seriously if you can’t present your ideas properly. I suggested the property tax, low as it is, is a superior alternative to cutting services for the needy in society, like the carers allowance. 96 people disagree. So 96 people would rather keep their 250e and take away the holidays of full time carers? My cynical self believes that these people may have just voted my down because they don’t like the property tax and will vote down any justification, no matter how reasoned. And they expect themselves to be taken seriously?

I think this thread is the perfect proof that most people’s opinion isn’t based in reality. Well Enda Kenny has to deal exclusively in reality. If he thinks he’ll save 3.5bn by cutting a few hundred thousand from expenses, then we’d be in serious trouble. But he doesn’t because he’s a professional and that’s populist nonsense. Kenny has to maintain an entire economic system where everything works. Literally every euro in the budget has to be assigned. He can’t just pick one phrase like “cut politicians pay” and expect the economy to be fixed. It doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t fix itself. Everything has to make sense from start to finish.

It’s fine to be angry. It fine to protest at injustice. But consider the entirety of the situation, and differentiate injustice from difficulty or inconvenience. I think politician’s pay is a good place to start. It won’t fix anything, but at least we’ll all be struggling together. However if you’re just angry at everything, everyone is going to ignore you.

I don’t mind how long the queue is. I’ll wait however long is neccesary.

It’s there alright.
I reply’d .

It’s there alright.
I reply’d .

The site seems to be on the fritz a little. Probably the traffic with the budget.

Living here in Switzerland , I’d be inclined to agree with you.. Looking at Ireland from the outside , I have to say that it looks to be a hopeless situation…

Aidan that was the idea. Make them emigrate then invite them back with a few mates for the Gathering on condition that they leave when we take all their money.

p*ick is another

How do we come out from behind the keyboard and out onto the streets? Who is going to lead?

The Occupy crowd gave it a go a few months back but everyone called them lazy hippies. Kind of reminds me of the Martin Niemöller.

by progressive i think he means it will keep rising.

A progressive tax is a meaningless term, unless it’s qualified. A regressive tax is similarly meaningless, unless it too is qualified. This touting of superficial sound bites, is nothing more than a marketing company lazily conning an all to ready victim, out of tax payers money.

Danny , good luck lad, not a student , self employed so boss wont work either , my views work in the real world , youve just been brainwashed by the left lad

Danny seems your crystal ball is not working too well today. Maybe you should take it out from that bridge your sitting under.

Might be a snowglobe Danny is looking in.

Is Church telling porkies? I can’t find him on the business registry. Are you sure you’re not at College Steve? I would personally question if you’re spending your academic time on social media or worse using your college computer for non-academic work.

Did you go and get the hardback or softback copy of the “companies register” :D

So with a house worth ?600,000 you can’t find ?20 a week?

Derek, there’s plenty of unemployed/hungry people living in houses that were once worth a lot more than they are today.

Creamy it will obviously be based on the current price, not what it was bought for.

That’s irrelevant James.

If you live in a house worth X amount of money (be it €50k or €500k) it doesn’t necessarily mean you have money these days.

And guess what, if you don’t have more money…you can’t pay more tax!

yea but they pay a mortgage based on the price it was valued at then not now… its called negative equity and plenty of people are in that situation.

I know but the way he said it sounds confusing.

Which we all have paid taxes on.Each block and bag of cement, each rafter window door and frame, each roof, floor and wall tiles. And Enda is still taxing us on our Homes which are worth nothing. Our homes were for our security in old age or so I thought but now I will never own my own home Enda and his ilk have seen to that Thank you Enda and Eamon yea are doing a great job at destroying the home owners of Ireland Happy Christmas and a very Happy new Year to you all but please give a thought to the devastation you are personally responsible for.none of the hard working people of Ireland caused this recession. It is you and your ilk along with all your overpaid over the top “bonuses” your friends “the bankers and your over paid salary,bonus and Expenses that now sees such hardship with your people The very people you say you have their best interest in all you do Shame on you Enda Shame on you. You have proved yet again you are the lowest of the low Well Enda you are finished you may never look for a vote from the people again but then why would you worry after all you can be Cosy with your hand shake and your pensions Good man Enda you provided for your family very well but what about us that did provide for our family also but you have taken it all from us with robbed votes and a stroke of your pen.Shame on you and Shame on you all who sits at the same side of the house with you You are a gutless spineless lowlife

Which we all have paid taxes on.Each block and bag of cement, each rafter window door and frame, each roof, floor and wall tiles. And Enda is still taxing us on our Homes which are worth nothing. Our homes were for our security in old age or so I thought but now I will never own my own home Enda and his ilk have seen to that Thank you Enda and Eamon yea are doing a great job at destroying the home owners of Ireland Happy Christmas and a very Happy new Year to you all but please give a thought to the devastation you are personally responsible for.none of the hard working people of Ireland caused this recession. It is you and your ilk along with all your overpaid over the top “bonuses” your friends “the bankers and your over paid salary,bonus and Expenses that now sees such hardship with your people The very people you say you have their best interest in all you do Shame on you Enda Shame on you. You have proved yet again you are the lowest of the low Well Enda you are finished you may never look for a vote from the people again but then why would you worry after all you can be Cosy with your hand shake and your pensions Good man Enda you provided for your family very well but what about us that did provide for our family also but you have taken it all from us with robbed votes and a stroke of your pen.Shame on you and Shame on you all who sits at the same side of the house with you You are a gutless spineless lowlife

Sorry about the multiple posts
@Journal what is it with the multiple posts please

+1 Sinn Fein will fight for the people of Ireland like you would never have seen before… unlike the sc-um in charge right now who look after there own little greedy pig tray.

and who do you replace them with? be assured this will not change….property tax is here to stay….no politician would give up that income….they would have to increase income tax substantially… that’s not a goer….

Whoever the next crowd is would still have to do what the troike tells them :-(

Ministers are not exempt from the household charge on their houses. I suppose you think Enda Kenny is paid more than Barrack Obama also?

Your constitutional argument is rubbish Anne. There was domestic rates based on values previously.

I disagree Reg. We have the right to private property and though it may be interfered with it must be deemed to be in the ‘public interest’. So if it was neccessary for a motorway to cut through my land and this was proven in court to be in the ‘public interest’ a CPO would be made but I would be compensated. Interfering with your rights to private property is not a small matter. I’ve just noticed but don’t know if it’s accurate yet a quote from Mark McCrystal on the web (as I say I don’t know where it came from so am not depending on it) also saying that this property tax is constitutional. I’m interested as he was proven right in the Supreme Court with his referendum challenge last month so his instincts and/or intelligence is good.

No streets! Waste of time! Freeze your wotsits off and no notice taken by your politicians!! Politicians need Fear. But there is only one way these bastards who would govern us will fear. Get everyone in your family with a vote. Bring granny in her wheelchair and off you go on Friday or Saturday to your TD’s office, one this week, one next week and the other the week after if you are unfortunate to have three. Mak an appointment and tell them -even better leave them a by hand delivered pe
rsonally letter – informing them that you and all your kin will not vote for them again if they pass the budget. The more this happens the bigger their fear. Local councillors need the same treatment. The more widespread their fear the better. NOW is the hour!!! Now is also the hour to stand – that’s you there – to stand in the next local elections against every party hack – FG and Lab for following blindly the political manifesto of FF since the last elections. Let them smell the fear!!!!

sorry meant he views budget as fair, like his salary

Been away from Ireland for a long time Diarmuid? When you say education is free in the UK. Does that mean your kids get their school books for free? Because that does not happen in free education Ireland. Health is a tax in my wages I also pay additional fees to a health insurance company to ensure that if I or one of my family fall sick and require medical attention that will happen rather then being told to join the end of the queue. Car tax in Ireland is about treble what it is in the UK and it doesn’t pay for the roads. We in Ireland have always paid our way but now the Irish government has decided to destroy us as a nation to pay other nations ill advised lending.