@finnian German banks pumped billions into Anglo in a gamble they would get paid back with interest Anglo went to the wall , the german banks gamble didn’t work and our government are paying them back anyway ….. It’s really that simple !!

I’ll pay the charge, when my bank applies the mortgage interest relief announced in the budget in December..
7 months after the budget and the banks are still not able to apply it to suffering mortgage holders because their systems are not up to scratch.
Yet they can apply charges to current accounts and loans with the touch of a key!!!
The govt. are quick enough to prosecute defaulters of the household charge, but they’ve been reluctant to crack the whip with the banks!!!!

i know its a small amount of money, but hey, stop robbing the tax payer, dont we all pay enough taxes already? if the government wants more money they should cut their salarys by 50%. i cannot see why they couldnt live off 60-70k a year escpecially when they claim for expenses as well…like come on..give us a break..

Can’t wait to see enda vote against repealing a tax he has stated is unjust and unfair….

Enda Kenny TD, 1994, “it is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person’s home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed, in cases it could probably be unconstitutional.”

The man stands for nothing, a servant of the wealthy and powerful, nothing more.

so if the HHC is repealed, will the govt be paying ?111 in late fees if they dont pay it fast enough ;-)

I have not paid this new tax and I won’t consider doing so until I see bankers & politicians held to account for their economic blindness and stupidity as well as their arrogance.
The majority of the debt this state faces is not the responsibility of the citizens. The government, elected by the people, has no right, moral or otherwise, to impose this unfair tax and pretend it will be used to fund local services.
This is a precursor to a full blown property tax on people who in many cases paid colossal stamp duty and in so many cases are now repaying this with interest as part of their overall mortgage borrowing commitment.
This government needs to listen to the people and act in the interests of society, not bankers & Europe.

Can I have my 100Euro back now please, I need it for sweets

What’s a household charge?

I would have no problem paying €100 if it stayed at €100 but what next year it will be €1000 or €2000 for nothing. I already pay €2200 in management fees a year I will not pay a property tax for services that are not provided. When rates were abolished the gov at the time increased income tax and vat to compensate so we already pay for local services. In the budget coming they are going to screw us again with increase income tax so I can’t afford any stupid taxes. I need my money for buying food and paying my mortgage. I will never pay a property tax!!!

I can’t believe you got red thumbs for showing that video Susie. Some people have no shame at all. We voted Yes for stability, or so we were told by FFg/Labour/FF…. This is what Yes gets you. We are going to have to give Spain over a billion euro in the coming months, because the germans refuse to federalise the Banking debt across Europe. Phi Hogan insists everyone pays 100 euro regardless of income, while the hypocritical git didnt pay his own service charges… while Hogan refused to take a cut in his 150k a year income, because he couldn’t afford it.
This is pure lunactic economic policy being pursued by FFg/Labour/FF. They don’t care what happens to Ireland, because they know that they will still get their pensions etc until the day they die.
Lets see wht the Labour TDs do in relation to this SF Bill. If they vote against the Bill, Labour as a party are finished for good. They will lose practically every seat at the next election. If they vote to support the Bill, they will at least keep the door open… Interesting to watch this next week.

What lawful obligation has anyone to pay a charge on property that they already own?

I am not paying money to a Govt that will only squander it.

Will they be charging people next for having arms or legs?

This Govt or any Govt that tries to introduce a charge on property that they do not own should be resisted.

Let the Govt actually earn the over-generous wages they are on and come up with solutions that won’t destroy this Country or fleece its people.

Didn’t register, won’t be doing so. Let them send me all the letters they want and bring me to court, will cost them a fortune but I still won’t be paying to bail out gambling German banks.

93 million so far and goverment is pumping 70 million into housing asylum seekers, what a JOKE enough is enough,just say NO NO NO………..

I still have NOT paid.And will be resillient.

for those who payed the household charge, where’s ur rebellious spirit?

I will not be paying and I support the Bill that SF will put to the Dail.
I will not support this government in grinding us ordinary people down any further . It is about time people began to think for themselves and say enough is enough .

https://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/world/greek-election-blog-2012/video/2012/jun/15/greece-hospital-austerity-cuts-video

So much for letting the Troika in to Greece ! This will be our fate too if we don’t stand up and SAY no no no no .

I’m looking forward to seeing the way the Dail members vote on this Bill. Nailing their colours to the mast so to speak. One flaw perhaps is having to agree with Sinn Fein for some of the muppets or puppets in there.
The way I see it is we seem to like to blame Bankers, Germans, Europe, Bond Holders etc which is all very relevant but the real problem is waste and a lack of managing the resources we have. The Irish people are saying no and rightly so but our Government needs to start saying no also. No to stupid expenses, hand outs, welfare cheats, protecting our past politicians, post and phone expenses, ridiculous pensions etc. etc.
We need to reduce our costs ( not wages) in this country before we begin to recover and local Government can begin to do this immediately and it can be driven by ordinary people willing to insist on not accepting anything less than excellent value for money. People are always looking for change but perhaps some people need to change themselves first.

Pay for the water you use.
What is the problem with that.
Sure we save water by fixing the leaks but you must pay for what you use.
The only sensible way is to pay for what you use.
Imagine if we never got unmetered electricity and it was included in our general taxes. How much electricity would be wasted.
It’s a ridiculous argument that doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.
I’m all for a certain amount of water unmetered but if you decide to run 3 baths every day then pay for it.

No. The water metered is at the start of your installation. I’m not looking to pay more in any taxes but I have the good sense to know that if the government abolish any tax it has to be picked up elsewhere. If anyone thinks our water is free they are deluded. Even a flat charge creates anarchy where people are so disenchanted they think Fxxx it, I’m being charged so I’ll use what I want. It’s the only way, the user pays.

I agree no one should pay this charge and the let’s continue borrowing to run the country… We should not have to pay for local services we should just get them for free !! 75% of our debt is down to our own fiscal imbalance and nothing to do with Bank debt. Not paying taxes is a brilliant idea to help get the country back to being self-sufficient. Genius !

More headline grabbing spin from Sinn Fein. Introducing a bill that its creators would have known from the start had no hope of being passed. I’d call that a complete waste of time, money resources. Sinn Fein would call it Marketing…

We will have the same battle against water charges. Answer that.
Does anybody think the infrastructure miraculously appears. Pay for what you use. As for the household charge. It’s got nothing to do with the fact you own your house, nothing.
I’m now saying I want to pay these charges but I recognise it’s the way it should be. Life would be wonderful if everything was free but that’s not the way it is.

I choose not to break the law, does this make me a sheep?

Ireland Through the Looking Glass. A Fairer Property Tax Than Big Phil’s Household Charge Disaster
 Posted by Brian Lucey on April 1, 2012 Add comments
Apr
01
2012
 
Ireland increasingly resembles a fantasy world, maybe a looking glass world, populated by strange and wonderful creatures, as the rest of us stumble around saying “should never have taken that fecking pill” and hoping that it will end soon.   Still, a Lewis Carroll world is perhaps better than say a world designed by Escher or HR Giger.

… but no matter how hard Alice looked, she couldn’t tell the difference.
One of the things that makes me think it’s a Carroll world is the prevalence of memes. Many of the characters in Alice’s various adventures disposed of pithy sayings and cultural tropes, memes if you will.  Memes as we all know are little cultural viruses; small pithy phrases that encapsulate very little but are both immune to the prophylactic of evidence and are self-perpetuating.  Our governments have had lots of memes.

Ireland is not Iceland (no, they are growing and have 7.5% unemployment) ;

NAMA will get credit flowing (yes, if by flowing one means in the same way that glass, technically a liquid, flows) ;

the cheapest bailout ever (….what can we say);

It’s lLabour’s way or Frankfurt’s way (well, we know how that turned out) ;

Not another penny for Anglo (no, just several billions of the little copper buggers);

Politicians generate lots of memes : they are cheap, sound good, are devoid of content and are parrotable by the foot soldiers.

The latest meme is: we can’t have a decent property tax because we don’t have the data.  Attentive readers will suspect that this is not the unvarnished truth.  Give yourself a pat on the back, and then enjoy the 12-hour wait in A&E for the dislocated shoulder.

We have several databases; but don’t take my word for it, take the word of someone who knows. Take Ronan Lyon’s word.  Ronan is the economic guru of Daft.ie, and also a PhD student at Oxford. He is far far smarter than me, a gifted amateur historian and genealogist as well as a super (mainly but by no means only) property economist.  As part of a submission by the Smart Taxes Network he and Constantin Gurdgiev have … devised a property tax.  One that is very finely grained, breaking the country into 4,300 areas, each assigned one of ten bands, and allowing for the government to set a rate by a very simple approach.  It would be flexible, fair, progressive, simple to collect and administer, all the things that the present debacle is not.

Of course, being Ireland, where policy-based evidence is sought rather than evidence-based policy, it won’t be implemented.  Why take a perfectly good, soundly based, easily implementable policy FREE to the government when a series of committees can faff about for an interminable period to create a complex mess. Google, back in the day, used to have a motto: don’t be evil.  Maybe we should tell our governments: don’t be meme.

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 Tagged with: housdehold charge, irish economy
  22 Responses to “Ireland Through the Looking Glass. A Fairer Property Tax Than Big Phil’s Household Charge Disaster”
Comments (22)

Kevin Hamill
April 1, 2012 at 10:48 pm
 
We need a property tax in Ireland and it is not because the ECB, the EU or any other organisation says so, but it is because of where we are as a nation.
Mr Lyons is wrong when he is of the opinion that we should have a property tax on all property,there should be no property tax on the home a person lives in, your home is as important to you as your health, it does not matter how big or how small your home is or where the location is.
However all investment property should have a substantial
Property tax on it, this includes 2nd houses and any subsequent houses does not matter if they are lived in or not.
There should also be a substantial property tax on land that was bought by investors outside zoned planning areas, this is land that has not being used by the investor , but rented to farmers.

We need to create the circumstance in Ireland where people are encouraged to own their own home, rather than renting it.
Irish governments need to think of the future, not the interests of a powerful narrow minded lobby group.

journeyman
April 2, 2012 at 2:31 am
 
Yep.

irateirishman
April 2, 2012 at 7:44 am
 
I agree

Jordan Ely
April 2, 2012 at 9:08 am
 
Read Ronan Lyons article. He specifically DOES NOT recommend a property tax. Rather a Site Valuation Tax. Different and appears to be much fairer. Is worth reading.

Kevin Hamill
April 2, 2012 at 11:12 am
 
A property tax,a Site Valuation Tax. If it is on or relates to your home it is the same thing !.

norma
April 2, 2012 at 11:35 am
 
I cannot see how a Property Tax and a Site Valuation Tax are the same thing.
Two houses, two sites, house no 1 is 3,000 sq ft high spec, house no 2 is derelict, same size sites same location, value the property, value the site, which ?

Islandbank
April 2, 2012 at 11:35 am
 
Good man Brian, now all we need is that shower of politicians to get out of the way!

Timmy
April 2, 2012 at 12:29 pm
 
Was thinking of buying an investmentment property at the moment. A hefty property tax on this would effect the price I am willing to pay. Don’t think this will help the property market which is in free fall still despite what Charlie Weston and the Irish independent say. So in the short term this would not help Ireland. IMO everyone who owns a property should pay a tax on that property for services provided.

Kevin Hamill
April 2, 2012 at 1:00 pm
 
Norma, property is not confined to a building, you are getting mixed up with a wealth tax, a site is also property

Kevin Hamill
April 2, 2012 at 1:47 pm
 
Tommy, that is my point,the property tax on investment property will help keep the price at market value , not an inflated value, after all it was this inflated value that has the country where it is, and the inflated value has left so many in negative equity.An economy is not the buying and selling of property,it is based on production and exports,so it would be good for Irl if we create a climate that never allows a bubble in the property market again.

Spikes
April 2, 2012 at 3:44 pm
 
First, thanks to Prof. Lucey for a great article.

To Kevin: while I agree with your comments that:
“An economy is not the buying and selling of property,it is based on production and exports,so it would be good for Irl if we create a climate that never allows a bubble in the property market again.”
Fair, market-based price signals without the distortions of leverage, tax incentives or the like are a good thing, and a focus on productive enterprise would be a huge benefit.

You stated earlier that:
“We need to create the circumstance in Ireland where people are encouraged to own their own home, rather than renting it.”

Not picking a side, but why the priority to own rather than rent? Ownership promotes a greater investment in the local community, possibly. It also introduces inflexibility into a workforce that may need to show more mobility, surely? Is there a reason to prefer one over the other if they are priced fairly?

I would be interested to hear Prof Lucey’s thoughts on this.

Bock
April 2, 2012 at 4:51 pm
 
I think you put your finger on it there. Fair pricing means rent control, and that was found to be unconstitutional, wasn’t it?

Spikes
April 2, 2012 at 5:24 pm
 
Bock,

I’m living overseas, so I hope you’ll pardon my ignorance on some of the details. I was not aware of the ruling on rent controls.
I’m not also clear why fair pricing means rent control. Rents should represent a normal yield on the market value of a dwelling, which should in turn reflect what a person of average local income can afford, absent the the distortion of subsidies, tax breaks or excessive leverage.

I’m not arguing for rent or ownership per se. At the right price, I’d like to own as an investment. At the wrong price, I rent.

Kevin Hamill
April 2, 2012 at 11:25 pm
 
Hello Spike, you say,
Not picking a side, but why the priority to own rather than rent? Ownership promotes a greater investment in the local community, possibly. It also introduces inflexibility into a workforce that may need to show more mobility, surely? Is there a reason to prefer one over the other if they are priced fairly?
If they were priced fairly, then everything would be ok.I have nothing against people renting either, I do not expect that people would buy a home in an area where there is no work for them so the idea of flexibility here , well up until now has not been a problem, although some people would have had to travel quite a distance to work but they would have been aware of that and accepted it.
I would have worked allot outside Ireland and have met allot of people who were retired, they were receiving the state pension but had to try and find 3 to 4 days work each week to put towards paying the rent, I never looked at renting from that point of view before, but I thaught that it was a very sad position for an OAP to find themselves in and now that people are living longer it will only get worse, so that is one reason why I think that the Gov policies should encourage people to buy with priority over renting, but there are other reasons also.

Spike
April 3, 2012 at 12:20 am
 
Kevin,

I agree that for most people who bought from the year dot until 2003 or so, it was a good way of saving for retirement. Part of this was due to rising prosperity and wages raising the real value and falling real interest rates / currency debasement increasing the nominal value further on top of that. Most of all, they were buying at reasonable prices (measured in terms of multiples of the average wage). Price paid matters.
However, government policies are a tricky one. What most people think of when they say the government should “encourage” home ownership is to provide greater access to credit, tax relief, and so forth. This benefits current homeowners at the expense of prospective homebuyers by driving house prices up (I am not saying that this is what you’re advocating). Perhaps the best way to encourage home ownership would be to let prices fall to a level where they make sense, and to have a robust rental market so that prospective buyers are not forced to buy when prices are in a bubble?
Of course, if the central banks continue to print money and debase currency, a house (or most debt-financed real asset) will eventually prove to be a marvelous investment even from these levels. But that’s another topic.

Kevin Hamill
April 3, 2012 at 1:19 am
 
Spike, some good points,,,You say,
However, government policies are a tricky one. What most people think of when they say the government should “encourage” home ownership is to provide greater access to credit, tax relief, and so forth. This benefits current homeowners at the expense of prospective homebuyers by driving house prices up (I am not saying that this is what you’re advocating).

You are right, I do not advocate that, hence the reason I say the property tax should only be on investment property and not on a persons home, that is why I would like to see the Gov tax investment property,I do not think that there should be any other encouragement as far as credit etc, you buy what you can afford, but that would leavel the playing field for first time buyers

Spike
April 3, 2012 at 5:44 am
 
Kevin,
Good points and a very an interesting idea to tax second homes and investment properties.

John Mallon
April 4, 2012 at 12:56 pm
 
I thoroughly agree with Kevin Hamill on the family home status. If you have purchased one of these in the last thirty years, you have already paid any taxes due on it. Any investment property, by it’s nature, is a gamble. The simple view there is that, if you can raise the loan for the purchase, you get tenants to pay your mortgage and they end up pissing their wealth down the drain, while you get the re-sale value of the house in time. By definition also, you already have your own home. We must not forget that, when someone makes a goodly lump sum, others have to lose out. But a family home is for raising a family in safety and security, and produce the workers of the future that will provide the pensions of the future. To my mind, it should be scared, and free from attack by Government. We pay enough already !

Essodee
April 5, 2012 at 10:20 am
 
No tax on the family home? Ok in principle I think, but I would set a cap on it, so that expensive properties would be taxed on the value that exceeds that of a normal family home. So, if your family home is valued at €1m, you’d be exempt from tax on the first , say, 250k, and the balance would be taxable. Fair?

Kevin Hamill
April 5, 2012 at 4:24 pm
 
Essodee,
I can see your point, and at face value it would seem logical but the problem is that a person we will say in Dublin could be on the same wage as say a person in Monaghan but the person in Dublin house is worth more, but it has cost them more to buy, that is why it should not matter where your house is or what size it is.After all if someone has to or wants to spend most of their disposable income on their home, then they should not be penalised for that.
That Is in my opinion why tax should be on income as it is more fair, however there should be property tax on all investment property, and that includes land, because in that suitiation someone else is paying your mortgage, and in allot of cases the State is paying the mortgage through rent allowance .
So if people were encouraged to buy their own home, with out having to compete with investors, that can only be good for Irl, and it will go along way to stop the same suitiation as in 99 to08

Darwin
April 7, 2012 at 6:21 am
 
All I want to mention is that glass doesn’t actually flow, which fits your analogy, I guess.

::

Stephen lambe
June 11, 2012 at 11:38 pm
 
So you live in a home with three kids have no steady income no savings don,t know how your going to pay the esb bill ect next month good news your house you paid 750,000 is now valued at 400,000 you will have a new bill to pay 800 e per year to start ,ok you have to feed your kids so you can,t pay how much worse can things get .penaltys and interest will put the nail in the coffin for a lot of people . A person should be allow earn a minimum income to survive before they are imposed with a tax to pay for ridiculous bets taken by ridiculous bankers . It’s not a property tax we need its a few people with the qualifications and the balls to run a small country like ours , but unfortunately we have hundreds off very expensive TDs instead who need advisors to try help them justify to the people who voted for them there actually needed. Good night God bless

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Iron Mountain 

http://bocktherobber.com/2012/04/a-fairer-property-tax-than-big-phil-household-charge/#comments

I agree Alan. I have paid and am happy to pay. Civilised countries have a property tax. It’s great in theory, nobody pays for anything but life isn’t like that. It’s like the rebellion against water charges. Why should you be able to turn on the tap and get as much free water as you want. If you want free water then go out in the garden, look up at the sky with your mouth open and wait for the rain.
Otherwise, if you want it to come out of a tap then pay for it as you use it.

We should have a household charge to pay for local services. That way it is more accountable. You can see what it is spent on or wasted on.
The raising and spending of money must be accountable. Water is a valuable resource and it must be paid for. Users must also be incentivesed to use it sparingly. Use more, pay more.
Where is the problem in that?

I spoke with two French families recently. One was paying €2,000 household tax per year and the other was paying €1,500. On top of that both were paying €600 for water charges each year. Why on an island with 4.5 millon of a population, are we only paying €100 household charge per year?

I actually don’t understand Sinn Feins stance on this. I thought they were pro-wealth tax. One of the most efficent ways to implement a wealth tax is through owned property. Did they change their position or what?