Yes, reasonable, I like that.

What he said.

5 years perhaps but 15 is far too long. They would be settled, married with kids in 15 years in their new country of residence. What voice should they now have on Irish affairs?

@Derek,

Well obviously the number of years could be different for Ireland. I just gave the UK number as illustrative. Sheesh.

Great then I can vote in multiple countries if I become citizen once I leave here.

A time limit of 15 years is reasonable; I also think that voting rights should only apply to anyone who lived here when they became eligible to vote, i.e that they were on the register of electors when they lived here.
That would make the system fair and would solve the issue of people with no knwoledge of the situation here having a vote in our elections. I don’t think that everyone who was born here or everybody with an Irish passport should necessarily be allowed to vote here.

How is it reasonable for someone who isn’t in any way affected by the decisions made by the government to get a say in electing that government? 15 years is ridiculous.

I don’t live in my home country and haven’t for 10 years. When I think about issues that affect my country I think of all the big issues. Marriage equality for instance.

If I was able to vote there, I’d be tempted to ignore all of the economic and taxation issues and vote according to social issues alone.

“that they were on the register of electors when they lived here.”

As in the UK, you remain on the register in the place in whcih you were registered when you left.

Just maybe, jumbo, they are abroad BECAUSE of government policies, and voting might give them a way to change those policies.
That’s how reasonable it is…

Correction, according the election commission:

“If you have never been registered as an elector in the UK, and you left the UK after your eighteenth birthday, you will not be eligible to register as an overseas elector. However, if you left the UK before you were 18 years of age, you can register at your parents’ or guardians’ last address in the UK, providing that you left the UK no more than 15 years ago. You will need to contact the Electoral Registration Officer at the local authority where your parents or guardians were last registered.”

“Just maybe, jumbo, they are abroad BECAUSE of government policies”

That’s an extremely weak argument. Some might be affected in that way and many might not be. None of them are as affected by government policies as people who live here.

You respond to my weak argument with flawed logic!

And yet you can’t even go as far as to identify the flaw. pfft…

Well said Jim, I also lived abroad for yrs. You can’t possibly have a say in what goes on if you don’t live there. Its a Stupid question in the first place.

15 years (whilst only being an example) might only be 3 general elections.

“15 years (whilst only being an example) might only be 3 general elections.”

It’s not about how many elections are held. The problem with giving the vote to emigrants is that they would be casting a vote that affects people who live in a country they don’t live in, and doesn’t affect them at all.

It would be like me getting a say in what car you buy. I get to take part in the decision and you have to live with the consequences. How is that ethical, moral, fair?

It’s called Moral Hazard.

I agree with you Jim.,,,

Only irish income tax payers should be allowed vote. Emmigrants and people in receipt of social welfare should be excluded

Josh that sounds like some qausi-fascist statement to make. (and i don’t like bandying about that word as it often is, but in this case it does apply)

Do you not realise that there are many who pay indirect taxes like VAT etc. that don’t pay income tax? A lot of revenue is brought in from VAT in this country, they shouldn’t be allowed to vote no?
What about students? Most of whom don’t pay taxes. These are people who will become doctors, nurses teachers, important for the economy. No vote for them either no?
If you lose your job tomorrow will you happily give up your democratic rights?
Purely stupid comment to make, and i’m sure most other irish people would agree.

If you do not live in the country or pay Tax to support that country, why should one have the right to vote.

@ Yvonne
Two things. I’m not a Fascist and I’m not a moron. I fully understand the tax collection system in this country and I stand by my comment. The comment is as valid as everyone else’s and you are entitled to disagree but to say that it is stupid is a touch arrogant and to say that ‘most other irish people would agree’ is very presumptuous.

Oh lets split the difference and make it 10 years!

Hey Damocls – What do the UK regulations have to do with the Irish electorate? Why quote them? Should we also know how the Turks handle the situation?

“What do the UK regulations have to do with the Irish electorate”

Mr Mulligan was suggesting something akin to the UK regs, so I used the UK regs to illustrate how it works there. Do you understand? Is it a little complicated? Read through the conversation again a few times and see it if starts to make sense to you.

Sinn Fein would love that. Vote in the extremist while we’re away, just to see what would happen, without having to live in with the consequences.

They really won’t let you after living here 19 years? It’s ridiculous that you haven’t been given a vote.

Wow! I’ve been living in France in France for 18 years and refusing to take French nationality am unable to vote either in Ireland or in France, except for local elections concerning my village of 900 inhabitants. Not bitter against Ireland either as my emigration wasn’t in desperation as it must be for so many young Irish people. But still more than ever desperately interested in Ireland . And eternally mesmerised by the political life in Ireland which appears to be even outdone by French politics, a real joke!
Last time I voted in Ireland in 1992 was for change, was part of the 20% minority I seem to remember because I voted for the Rights of Others and against my own personal convictions. Seems that nothing has changed and the Silent Majority who don’t figure in thejournal.ie community have been overlooked

You can vote in local elections and European elections, no?

Have you taken out Irish Citizenship? If not I think you can vote in referenda but not general elections.

Yes. But I suspect we have the same incredibly weird political agenda in France as in Ireland. Everything is centre-centre right or a tiny bit to the left . Or the national front!
In my village the local elections serve to allow the winners/ farmers to push planning permission on their beloved hectares and make a little fortune. Like in Ireland I suppose!
Truth is I’m possibly not a political beast. Sorry

I’m in the same boat as many who immigrated to the continent.
Paid taxes in Ireland for years but can’t vote in either country, I always used my vote.
Allowed to vote in the EU elections but the EU parliament is a cesspool.

Tina you should be allowed to vote here that’s terrible . Anyone who lives in another country for more then 12 months & is paying tax should be allowed to vote.

what about the tens of thousands who are being forced to leave because of the recession, no work etc,?
and they would would absolutely love to return here if things improved?????.

My Dad is British and has lived in Ireland for nearly 50 years and worked and paid taxes to the Irish government until he retired, he married an Irish woman, raised two Irish children and even has an Irish Grandmother, he can vote in general elections etc since 1987 (after he lived here for 25 years) after the Anglo/Irish agreement but not referenda or Presidential elections as he is not technically an Irish citizen. He’s not particularly interested in voting in Britain as this is where he’s lived for two thirds of his life and its the policies in this country that affect him. That said, I think emigrants should have the right to vote in Irish elections for a while after they leave, especially if certain political policies forced their hand, for one or two elections after anyway. I think people in my Dad’s situation really should have voting rights in referenda when like him, their whole life is based in Ireland.

Personally, I think this is the most reasonable. I’ve 2 brothers that are gone from Ireland for years and I wouldn’t expect they would have a clue what’s going on here.

Course not, people that emigrate often have an undying hatred for FF corruption and theft and utter contempt for FG’s ineffectual opposition. Two things that have riddled this country like a cancer.

No amount of experience abroad should give you the right to elect a government who can tax the bajeebus out of me. You won’t give the same weight to economic issues as a resident because you don’t have an interest in the economy.

Jimbo- you raise a very fair and clear point- I see your side! It’s an interesting debate. Here’s an idea to sway your thinking- what about Irish abroad, such as for US citizens, having their income tax paid in Ireland for a number of years, thereby allowing a vote but also massively increasing the Irish revenue purse… To make this attractive to emigrants, an attractive tax rate should be offered! Seriously, we have a lot of people abroad=revenue! it also paves the way to keep the connection alive and support returning emigrants later in life!

You don’t get to pick and choose where you pay tax. Your country fo domicile for the greatest part of the tax year along with international double-taxation agreements determine that.

The Irish government has no power to tell the Australian government, for instance, that their citizens are no longer going to pay tax in Australia and are instead going to pay tax in Ireland.

Furthermore (1), if they Irish government could do that, the first thing the Australian government would do is stop importing Irish immigrants. And (2) the Irish government would never give an incentive like that for people to emigrate.

And would you have an issue following the american system, ie allowing people to vote in all elections using either postal votes or embassies?
To me, an Irish citizen does not stop being an Irish citizen the minute they get on a plane, or jump on a boat.
To me, the only reason Irish citizens who our outside our 26 counties, are not allowed to vote, is because the establishment parties won’t allow it to happen. They fear the back-lash and that could impact their gravy train.

@Cal1 I would like the same system that is available for US citizens to be there for Irish citizens. Purely because of where I have been working, I have actually voted in more UK & US elections than Irish ones. I had the opportunity to vote in the last Irish presidential election because, by chance, I was in the country. I agree that being an Irish citizen does not stop the minute one gets on a plane, or jumps on a boat – unfortunately, the politicians seem to think it does.

Unfortunately it seems you cant put enough nails in that coffin when you have Meehaul Martin, who sat in government for 14 years while the country went down the toilet, now the most popular leader in the State, and Fianna Fail the second most popular party.

I know sean, they are like an STD you just cant get rid off!

You’ve hit the nail on the head there!

Ian — You’re right about the tax issue, that has nothing to do with it. My concern is that people who don’t live here don’t have a material interest in who governs. As others have said, there should be a limit of maybe five or six years.

Why not? Because some (not all of course) wouldn’t have a clue what’s going on here anymore. Another reason is down to the question of one man one vote…..

I’m not against it but I think there should be a time limit and if someone becomes a citizen of another country.

Some Irish people living in Ireland don’t know what’s going on there. Does that mean they shouldn’t have the right to vote? I live abroad and can understand the reasons people may not want me voting in case I’m out of touch with what’s going on (hey, maybe we should take the vote away from politicians while we’re at it) but there will be and have been times that I missed out on a vote that will affect whether or not I can return to Ireland in the next 5-10 years. So, I can’t have a say in my countrie’s future but, you know, I’ll be encouraged to come back for The Gathering so Enda and Leo can turn out my pockets for spare cash.

In the same boat and whole heartedly agree…

Not everything in the world is about money

“No representation without taxation.”

What about people on welfare?

And if you start off about VAT, what about tourists?

People on welfare are affected by the decisions of the government as much as anyone else who lives here. Emigrants are not and therefore should not be able to vote here.

I believe the original slogan from the American revolution was “no taxation without representation”. So your use of quotation marks is a little puzzling. Unless you are quoting yourself.

The franchise has nothing to do with tax. Consult your copy of the Constitution.

@Ian Mac Eochagáin

My use of quotes is because I was quoting the user _doesnotcompute. My comment is a reply to his comment, appears as a reply to his comment, and I am quoting the first sentence of his comment.

The origins of that phrase “No representation without taxation” is a corruption of a catch cry from the American Revolution which was actually “No taxation without representation”. This is a far more serious issue in Ireland right now with so many immigrants living in the country without any proper political representation. They pay their taxes here but are denied the vote.

Taxes are an obligation that comes from Citizenship. Citizenship isn’t something that you buy with your taxes.

The only people living outside of Ireland who pay taxes in Ireland are those who have Irish taxable assets in Ireland (like investment poperty).

“Taxes are an obligation that comes from Citizenship. Citizenship isn’t something that you buy with your taxes.”

Utter crap. Foreign nationals who live in Ireland and who are not citizens of Ireland have to pay tax in Ireland. Taxation ahs nothing to do with citizenship, it has to do with residence.

@jimboandbear I agree with you – taxation has nothing to do with citizenship and shouldn’t be a prerequisite for the right to vote.

Problem is that we deny emigrant citizens the vote because they are not resident and we also deny the vote to immigrants who are resident because they aren’t citizens. We can’t have it both ways if we want to live in a truly representative democracy.

“Problem is that we deny emigrant citizens the vote because they are not resident”

So we should. Why should they get a say in how the residents of the country live?

“and we also deny the vote to immigrants who are resident because they aren’t citizens.”
Not entirely true. Immigrants can vote in local elections. Also, those who have been living here more than 5 years can apply for citizenship in most cases.

So because you paid taxes here in the past you should get a say in how much I have to pay in taxes today? Screw that.

Here come the red thumbs. They will vote you down but they will not argue the point with you.

Feelings are not facts.

Certainly to that. There are a lot of vested interests and individuals that depend on their connections to FF/FG to get them contracts etc. Look at the local FF’ers in your area, look at how many of them depend on state cash in one way or another. It’s the ultimate kick back org. That is why so many FF’ers are getting freaked out over their renewal, they know that if FF do not come back that they will be on a level playing field, legally and business wise with their competition. Many will not survive that.

I am being pretty affected by how my lone parent mother with a daughter in university is doing with all the cuts and budgets going on. Why shouldn’t I get a say?

Because its probably the governments mess up that has forced most emigrants to leave, they may like to return some day and have a chance to have their say in how the country is being run. I agree with the time limit though.

@ The Oracle – I’m currently on a one year working holiday visa in Australia and when back home always exercise my right to vote. I feel people in my situation should have the right to vote because if I missed a general election vote, I’d have to deal with the outcome of that vote for years after I come home!

hear hear
if they wish to run away from their home nation instead of staying to help fix it,

we should also revoke their passports after 5 years and make them apply for Visas if they wanna return.

@The Oracle I was living abroad for work reasons and was unable to vote in the 2007 General Election. I returned home in 2008 and have lived with the consequences of that election ever since.

Ireland is unusual in not having emigrant voting rights – 36 other European countries have them in some form or another. Have a read of this and educate yourself on the issue http://www.ean.ie/issues/emigrant-voting/

Interestingly, our least representative institution, the Seanad, does allow for a postal vote and I was able to vote in the 2007 Seanad Elections from abroad. If it can be done for the Seanad, I don’t see why it can’t be done for the Dáíl, referendums and presidential elections.

Of course the biggest political impediment to a blanket emigrant vote is the influence that Northern Ireland residents could have on our political institutions. This is the reason why the main political parties in Ireland are reluctant to go there.

Ciaran – so you think that the 2008 election is the reason we are where we are? Glad you didn’t get to vote…..

@Simon – And how would I have helped fix the country by signing on the dole and the only work I could get was volunteer work to bulk uop my CV. I will, however, be helping the country when I return in the future with my hard earned savings and investing money back into the economy.

I didn’t run away from anywhere, I left to start a career, see the world and learn a little from other cultures which from your ignorant comment, you seem to be sorely lacking.

looks god for the gathering then

It’s nothing like that. You’re not born an employee. You are born a citizen. With that citizenship comes certain rights and responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to vote. There’s no corresponding responsibility within a company.

A company wouldn’t normally take back a fired employee!

In my experience, a lot of emigrants hold a rage for the home country. They blame it for everything that is wrong in their lives. I have come across a huge number of bitter people with intense anger in their lives, who still have the rage 15 years after leaving. We saw a glimpse of it a few weeks ago with actor Gabriel Byrne doing untold damage and trying to scupper what was essentially just a tourist marketing initiative with his attack against “The Gathering”.

I would rather these unsettled people with a massive grudge stay out of voting for issues which have no impact on their everyday lives.

I don’t think your experience is accurate at all. The vast majority of emigrants in my experience have huge respect for their home country. If there is rage it is generally against the gombeen politics that seems to be the norm here.
I would love to see voting rights extended to emigrants for 5 years, if for no other reason than to get our public reps away from the “fix the pothole, get the medical card” nepotism that has have dragged this country down for decades.
As for the Gathering, all Gabriel Byrne did was point out the truth about a cynical exercise which this topic further exposes. Their dollars are good enough but their votes aren’t?

Just how many emigrants do you know? Or is your bitter rant for Gabriel Byrne alone?
I’ve been living in London for more than 20 years and have never heard the sentiments you talk about. And, no, I don’t have a well paid job, or have a fancy car, or live in a mansion, and neither do most of the Irish living here. We have a roof over our heads and work damn hard to keep it there. And, to be honest , we’re sick to the back teeth of the whinging generation we’ve left behind .
As for the voting issue, why on earth should someone who does not live in a country (any country) have a say over how it is run? It doesn’t matter what your future intentions are. When you leave, you forfeit any right to a say. I live in London, so vote here. I would never expect to have a say in how Ireland is run, nor would I expect an English person living abroad to have a say on how my life is run here.

No comparison.
Employees who are fired don’t get to come back

Is this a comment on my contribution to the debate? If so what are you talking about?

type … I suggested a constituency with 4 or 5 seats … (not “sets”)

There are many examples of corruption, but the presidential election “scandal” isn’t the first one that would spring to mind. In fact, it probably saved us from having another Fianna Fáilure where he was not wanted.

“People in the north-eastern part of this country are deprived of the right to vote in referenda, presidential elections etc. That should be changed.”

That’s because Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland. Until that happens, I don’t see why they should vote in matters outside their country.

Agree with you re; emigrants. Doesn’t the UK have a 15 year limit on it? 10 years sounds about right.

..@jim

…how would giving them a vote on a titular title such as the Presidency give “them a say”?

As for the “emigrant tax” my jaw drops !! …

..spare me, honestly, I despair for this country sometimes, I really do ..

An emigrant tax would force people to put their money where their mouth is. If they are so concerned about voting in Ireland and having a say in the countries affairs then some form of contribution to the country would be in order. I reckon though the minute they had to pay for it most of them would decide that they weren’t that bothered at all.

“They don’t give a rats. They are extremists.”

Your statement is oxymoronic, my friend.

No. The majority of young people who has leave has been forced to leave. I’m 19 and I have become much more interested in politics and how the country is run since I left. I hate this assuming that young people don’t give a “rats”. Most of us want to return and would like to be able to have a say in how the country goes about getting to the point where we can sustainably go home and stay there.

Or it might allow you to say “sure I’ll vote for that lot and if they are a disaster well it doesn’t really affect me whatsoever does it”.

My husband is living in Ireland 11 years. He’s been working and paying taxes the whole time. It’s very frustrating for us that he can only vote in local elections.

No, they would cast their votes knowing that it really wouldn’t affect them what crowd got in wheras those of us who do live could potentially suffer.