There is a very high tolerance of violence in the Unionist community and exceptionally high in political Unionism. Everything over the last 100 years points to this.

Robin the British isles is an out of date geographical statement both the Irish and British governments try to phase out its use

Remember that incident where they threw a petrol bomb into the car of the female police officer, while she was sitting outside an Alliance party office in Belfast? There wasn’t a huge amount of condemnation from them at the time. The DUP and Robinson are desperate for him to get his East Belfast seat back from Alliance.

Mike Nesbitt will never forgive the taighs after he was forced to say Derry when on UTV!!

I liked him when he was in The Monkees.

There is always the idea of the north becoming an independent state where both sides would have to live together in peace and work together to survive. There’s no reason why it couldn’t work.

The north has no economy,zero,nada.Its propped up by a bloated civil service and direct british investment.

Economically its wouldn’t be able to survive as an independent state! When the treaty was voted on and the north was officially split, the government of the time even said that it would be difficult for the state to survive by its self.

Northern Ireland cannot afford education and health plus there is a very high number of civil servants in such a small state! Its v expensive for UK to keep NI

@Irish Mule,

It genuinely wouldn’t work. Northern Ireland would collapse within ten years without financial support from either the UK or the Republic. Nobody would invest there. The economy would slow down to a near collapse and there would be no money to fund the repairs or the law enforcement necessary. It would be a failed state in a decade.

NI economy is worth 29billion of this 5 billion is given to them by the UK government. 30% of those working are public servants.

NI will not be able to survive on its own with the current expenditure!

Economically untenable.

Davy
I’ve some news for you. Belfast is today more Constitutionally British than at any time since the 1920’s.
The entire island has confirmed this in a very democratic plebiscite and you need to remember this fact.

The question is if Britain as we know it split! Ie Scotland leaving, if Wales were then to leave where would NI position itself.

This is a serious point as Scotland is going to vote for independence and become like Canada.

You hardly expect the RUC to open fire on their own kind now do you.

PSNI

Oh forgive me sure they changed the uniform from dark green and stuck a few symbols up on the crest.Totally different.

Ruc

Robert is obviously here to garner heated reactions with idiotic comments that don’t bring any sort of intelligent debate to the conversation. Ignore him.

Thats your opinion,i dont agree with it so i think ill go outside and trash the place OR i can respect it.

Respect it. Also respect the fact that its now the PSNI not the RUC. Regardless of whatever other changes may or may not have occurred in that organisation.

I sincerely hope your are just ignoring the tongue in cheek metaphor masterfully crafted into my comment

That’s the first time I’ve been able to say that you’re right Robert. Lol

Doubt it, loyalists rarely venture to Dublin, and when they do they never even step off the bus, ask Frazer.

If scotland leave the UK, it going to be a mess for NI!!

It’s not an English flag. It’s the flag of the union. That’s their flag.

I volunteer to buy Paisleys ticket.

And where will the Irish go? Oh hang on, half a million Irish crossing the border would certainly provide a boost to the housing slump!

Dey tuk urrr fleg!!

Robin they are all Irish.

They’re not all Irish and those that are are not living in their own country.

Im Irish because im from Ireland which is an island.
I am not “Republic Of Irish” on my passport and they sure as hell arent “Northern Irish”.

Why would the irish go anywhere?

Robin, they live on the island of Ireland. Therefore they are Irish. It really is that simple. Most of the people living in the North who claim to be British haven’t had any ancestors from Britain for centuries.

@robert for days I have been biting my tongue at your ridiculous comments. You haven’t got a clue about up North. Robin has very valid points, in fact most of the people do that you have a go at do. The people of Northern Ireland can choose who they are. In fact, a good portion of them see themselves as British but they are not supporting these riots, they have accepted democratic process, you just don’t see it on other news outlets but I live here and work in Belfast and all of the people I have met whether they see themselves as Irish, Northern Irish or British don’t condone this. They are ashamed of it. And yes, believe it or not people believe they are Northern Irish because that is their identity. Who are we to tell this population who they are?

At what stage did i say that every single protestant supported the riots??I have a good friend here in Oz who is a protestant from there and even he is laughing at how moronic they are.Yes we dont agree on multiple things but do we have fights,no because we are adults.My main points are (A) it was a democratic vote,if you dont like it you dont go out and let your cause get hijacked by teenagers who only want to cause trouble and (B) all this northern irish stuff is pure waffle,outside the UK and Ireland everyones a paddy and the worlds quite big.

Robert – since Ireland is also one of the British Isles, does that make you British? The people of Northern Ireland may choose to be either British or Irish. Not all of them choose to be Irish, so they are not all Irish, as you state. And yes, it is all waffle and everyone may be a Paddy but Paddy was a Welshman and that’s an entirely different thing altogether!!

Sean – why would the British go anywhere?

Jason – see my above point to Robert. Also, most of those who are British have always been British and so have all their ancestors.

Ciara – thanks for that. Stop biting your tongue. We could do with more reasoned debate here.

You are aware the term british isles is quite antiquated and has no relevance today,Britain was once part of the Roman Empire so i take it your Italian?Oh and im still waiting for quotes where i stated all protestants supported the riots.

Ciara thank you for coming on board. See previous articles where I got into pointless arguments with that Robert creature re the validity of a Northern Irish identity.
He is a south Dublin smug, in his opinion there is no such thing as northern Irish, therefore it is true. When I tried reasoning that people like Rory McIlroy feel isolated by the prospect of having to choose to be Irish or British he ignored that point and starting harping on about does this mean he is eastern Irish etc. I finally gave up trying to reason with him when his final remark yesterday was a friend of his told a girl in a bar that he was Northern Irish and she laughed. Thank you Ciara for putting forward your point!

Im stating my opinion,you dont have to agree with it and to be honest i dont expect you to.My convictions are my own and as such are not going to change so dont get so worked up.I apologise to anyone i may have offended but i stand by my convictions,isnt that the whole point of having a comments section?

The term British Isles is not at all antiquated, it is the current geographical term for this group of islands. Sorry. Part of Great Britain was occupied by the Romans and formed part of the Roman Empire but only a few of the peoples were actually Roman. None of the ‘natives’ were Italian, why would they be Italian?

So let me get this straight,you ask if im british because im from the british isles even though relatively few planters were british and then say your not Italian because relatively few were roman (thats in Italy).The term british isles is quite antiquated and has in fact been replaced!British books will of course use it to hang onto the faint memories of lost empire.

I know you’re not British Robert. Just as I know that many of the people in Northern Ireland are not Irish. I’m not the one telling people what their nationality is. The Roman/Italian thing is just a smokescreen.

I agree they are descended from British settlers and want to hold onto that identity.Sure they can class themselves as British but with a wider Irish identity.Two babies born beside each other cant have a different nationality because of their upbringing and my refusal to acknowledge their claims to be British is a direct rebuttal to claims they are not from Ireland or Irish.

So by that rationale Scottish and Welsh are actually English as that too is an island.

Go back far enough Robert and we’re all descended from British settlers. And you were the one that claimed they were all Irish before anyone suggested they were all British (which wouldn’t be hard, since no-one ever did).

Michael D – how’s that?

@ Robert and Robin

I went back far enough and discovered I’m African!!!

Prove it smarty pants!

@Robin – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tamf5CI1yVY

Super stuff. You’re missing the point. I’m not the one deciding what nationality the people of Northern Ireland are. If they want to call themselves Irish, they can. If they want to call themselves British, they can. Frankly, I don’t care. You need to read my comments more closely. Just because you disagree with me, doesn’t make me wrong.

@Robin – Yes Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English people are close cousins; DNA has shown most of our ancestry dates long ago to Iberia (the first people to settle these islands). What’s ironic about Northern Ireland is the amount of hate some of the Loyalists have for anything Gaelic while they wear kilts and use bagpipes in their Orange marches. Not to mention how many have Scottish Gaelic surnames. Scots themselves come historically from Picts and Gaels who formed the Kingdom of Alba, later Germanic invaders also contribute to the Scottish gene pool. Irish-Catholics come from Irish Gaels (makes up most of our gene pool), Vikings (mainly Norwegian, some Danish), Gallowglass-Scots, and the Old English (Norman, English, Welsh, French, Breton, and Flemish).
Ex: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/maps/map1300.gif

The overwhelming majority of Irish-Protestants in the South descend from the Anglo-Irish/Protestant Ascendancy (Church of Ireland – Anglican) class. Interesting read. The Protestants of the South and North are a completely different people in terms of ideology, culture, background, contribution and loyalty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/15/world/irish-protestants-feeling-more-irish.html

Someone else’s words.

“I don’t get it really. The people rioting in NI are described as “British”. Yet to find a common ancestor on this island, they would have to go back over 300 years. So how are they still British, any more than the Americans or Australians are? Their culture, accents and customs have little to do with Britain today, apart from certain negative and sectarian aspects of Scottish culture. They are hyper-religious and see their religion as closely linked with their political destiny, where people in Britain tend to be either apathetic about religion, or see it as a private thing. They contribute nothing economically to the UK (in fact billions are handed over to their intimidating politicians without question) and are completely out of sync with modern Britain.”

Well actually your wrong there is very relevant in law today say for example the term of a non-national in this state it means any person not born within the British Isles so yeah enough of your crap Robert stop trying to get your two pence in enough is enough- do a bit of research other then Wikipedia before you make ridiculous remarks and comments.

And I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the 2 if they were walking down the street

@roberta,if they are not English why do they have British passports

Side note: The terms Norman and Anglo-Irish on the maps describe the same settlers who settled Ireland before the Protestant Reformation. Many documentaries/textbooks will either describe them as the “Norman Lords” or the “Anglo-Irish” lords.

MVM- your comment demonstrates such a lack of awareness of the relevant issues that I’m not even going to red thumb it.

Kevin N – I don’t believe that the first people to settle Ireland were from Iberia. It makes no sense to argue that Iberians sailed from modern Spain, past France and Great Britain and got to Ireland before those from modern day Scotland and Wales, who could actually see the place!

@Robin – I stated Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English peoples DNA mainly traces back to Iberia. You’ll have to argue with DNA on that one. Whether they first inhabited Britain or Ireland, I’m honestly not sure. But I do know there has been a lot of movement between both islands for as long as inhabited by the Iberians. Many Britons immigrated west to Wales/Ireland during the Angles/Saxons invasions. The Britons (Wales/England), Picts (Scotland), and Gaels (Ireland) all clearly go back to the same group who arrived on these islands. The Gaels of Ulster spread to Scotland in the 5th century (Dal Riata). The term Scots and Scotland also comes from the Gaels. The Picts also have been shown to settle parts of Ulster. There is also this extremely misleading misconception that the English people are “Anglo-Saxon”. The Germanic invaders (Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans) never drastically changed England’s (or the rest of these islands) genetic make-up. They without a doubt contributed to the DNA, but it only makes up 20% at most for some people. There’s no doubt they changed it drastically when it came to language, culture, architecture, and other ways of life. What we consider are “Celtic” heritage is really our Iberian ancestors.

My mistake Kevin. I thought you were implying that it was the Spanish that first settled in Ireland. I’ve heard that one before you see. What people fail to realise though is that the last ice age forced everyone down south over the Pyrenees. And as the ice receded, peoples went back north again, eventually inhabiting all land. That there is common DNA is inevitable, but it’s just as inevitable that their DNA in modern Spain is actually because of the people that came south, as much as ours is a result of us coming from there.

There is over one million Southern Irish born ,living and working in England under the union flag, plus the other hundreds and thousands in other commonwealth countries , Wonder how they view the flag issue.
The Irish state has turned its back on all of those emigrants. Rejoin the commonwealth.

No worries, Robin. The Iberians (from Basque) anyway arrived in BC in these isles; very long ago and Irish/British people look nothing like present-day Spaniards/Portuguese. Obviously all types of people have some connection as humans started out in Africa. Warren Buffett (the billionaire) who I believe is of English/Scottish descent judging by his surname and religious background; took a DNA test and his paternal ancestors came from Northern Scandinavia and his maternal from Iberia. That would make sense with all the Viking Invasions and the Iberian heritage of the original inhabitants of these isles. I agree with your ice age point as Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer concluded that Irish and British people descend back to the Iberian refugium of the last ice age. When taking an ancestry test the test can’t specify whether one is English, Irish, Welsh, or Scottish descent; it just concludes “British Isles” as the place of ones ancestry. I mean regardless of DNA tests or whatever you can’t tell the difference between Irish and British people by just looking at them; they look the same. You’ll find obviously some Irish/British people having children with more Germanic features (blond hair/blue eyes) than Celtic (Iberian) ones as their siblings; those genes coming from the Germanic groups that invaded/settled these isles the last 15 centuries obviously. Not sure where some people are getting the idea that we are Spaniards; we may as well add Africa in that case.

@Manson – Would you be ok if we partition part of England for the Irish living there? 25% of English people also claim Irish ancestry anyway.

4 sprung deck the halls with flags!!!

The people’s of Scotland and wales see themselves as Scots/ Welsh and then lots of them see selves as British. Lots of unionist in N Ireland refuse to class themselves as northern Irish as well as British. This baffles me to be honest.

I’ve never heard a Scot or Welshman go “I’m not Scottish, I’m British” or “I’m not Welsh, I’m British”. The ones who say they are British always say their Scottish or Welsh first or both; based on my own interactions with them. The Loyalists go crazy if someone calls them Irish or don’t say “Northern Irish” or “British”. It comes down to their disgust/racist/supremacist attitude towards Irish-Catholics or those of an Irish-Catholic background. Ulster Loyalism stands for a common ethnic/religious/political belief/background; Irish Nationalism does NOT. Doesn’t mean that bigots don’t exist within Irish Nationalism/Republicanism. All nationalisms/political movements have them. Northern Ireland’s problems aren’t originally because of Irish Nationalism/Republicanism. The Troubles was a response to the persecution, mass murder, and 2nd class status of Irish-Catholics in NI. Extremism/hatred breeds more extremism/hatred. That’s the reality, doesn’t mean I in anyway support what the IRA did. 52% of British Security Forces killings were of civilians. 85% of Loyalists Terrorists killings were civilians. 35% of Republican Terrorists victims were civilians. Interesting.

@robert at what point did I refer to British people as protestants? Everyone else, you’re welcome. I won’t hold my breathe for as long again. In fact, I was afraid to check back here for fear of the backlash my comment would bring.

@john I’m also from Dublin, but I have enough respect for people to allow them to make up their own minds about their own identities. Very good point about Rory McIlroy, very hard decision for him to make.

Michael D your comment makes no sense,why would welsh and scottish be english as its an island.The island is Britain,they are British….sheesh!!!

And by financially you mean they are literally a black hole for the british exchequer with no return.

Which makes it all the more ironic seeing as Unionists are willing to fight to remain part of the UK while the British government can’t wait to get rid of Northern Ireland.

Yeah a white sheet, to represent peace. And a little bit of green, to represent Nationalists. And also a little bit of orange, to represent Unionists. That sounds fair and equal!

Ironic isn’t it.

Dont worry the real defenders of Ireland will step up to the plate when they have to while the free staters twiddle their thumbs as usual.Ignorance is not bliss and it will come back to bite them.

Send in the clowns

No problem do that, and see what happens.

Stop calling you country a shit hole , have a bit of pride. If there is things your not happy with change them

That policy is that in shared political spaces that the flags of either side are not to flown. It is about not rubbing each others faces in the mud.

Most of this rioting was down to the DUP stirring it up against Naomi Long of the Alliance in East Belfast, she who took Peter Robinson’s seat. It was all about the seat and it then got out of control.

As for kicking a hornet’s nest, well if that is what u call when Democratic votes are adhered to, policy followed through on and an agenda of equality and respect implemented, then they should continue to kick away.

ah, all i meant was sleeping dogs ‘n all that

You mean the in the same way that the ANC allowed the blue white and orange flag continue to fly over government buildings in South Africa? Oh, wait a minute…

A sleeping dog gathers no moss

So politicians should cave in to threats of unionist violence then?

Nathan you were put in your place in a other atricle and dont use “we” to describe your views,i have made some comments which truth be told abhore a good few people and not once did i class my personal views with a “we”

So you’re in the Mé Féin party then Nathan?