They are called sociopaths, as I recall, in the US. They are especially easy to find in politics. They are the ones found with their hands in the cookie jar. With the intern in the office after hours. With the contractor working on the summer residence for free. They are at the tops of the corporate ladder, because their “me first” drive puts them where they want as they ruthlessly elbow their way to the top. The are charming. They are affable. They tell great jokes. They can be enormously successful because they only care about themselves and their agenda. They can kill thousands with bad products. They can poison the water and the air. They would kill every living thing if it stood in their way. You will find it easier to understand events if you understand the psychology behind them.
Thank you, D.S. for pointing that out.

Are you seriously suggesting 1in 14 men are abusers in the general population

Indeed. Who needs an “education” that includes fairy tales presented as fact? The church is well-organised and so it was able to muster the resources to develop our schools. But it turns out it is not an organisation that works in our interest in the big picture.

How many priests in the past actually had the freedom to make the lifestyle choice? Weren’t they just sent there by family mostly? Even still, why would a fully developed peado choose to live such a life when they chould just abuse their own. I don’t buy into the argument that they are making a conscious decision to join the priesthood with the intention of molesting the children in their care. Most were very young themselves when their futures were decide. Most likely the churches twisted views on sexuality combined with the unnatural lives these men are expected to live are to blame

That would suggest that any man at all who deals with children after a while could turn to pedophilia.

If their subconscious needs were related to a fear of women, homosexuality or other it would seem they would be unlikely to enter the priesthood if it was heavily policed and there were women there as well. Therefore they would go elsewhere.

I would hope they have done studies into the actual reasons they turn to it or of it was in them before they joined the priesthood and they saw it as the perfect profession to fit their twisted interests.

you are so rght couldnt agree more

Sean; You are absolutely spot on. There is No god no afterlife but, the thing that most people do not understand is, that every priest knows that there is No god, their training is to make sure that the myth is continued in order to control the masses. They all know the truth from the pope down.

One wonders! But the concealment of it was.

yes, the tolerance and the protection MUST be seen as complicity and promotion

So what is the consensus here?
They are all the same?
There are many many good priests doing fantastic work in the community.
Fr. Peter McVerry would be an example. Let us please have the maturity to deal with facts and not make the innocent in the priesthood victims of this also. I know this will not sit easily with some whose views are so distorted that they want to attack every member of the priesthood.
These stereotypical views are very very dangerous. I am with the common view that the church as a body have not done enough to deal with this.
When you paint the innocent in the same light as the offenders you are also guilty.

There’s a hint of persecution complex in your comments, Sean. Fr. McVerry is indeed an excellent man. He is hardly a “representative” (in the statistical sense) of the priesthood. It’s telling that you choose the obvious exception to bolster your somewhat tremulous (“some whose views etc.”) argument. And gingerman is “guilty” of what, now? Child abuse?

Great point Sean. 1 in 14. That’s approx 7%. So 93% have had no accudations made against them. I thought the % with accusations against would be much higher.

It would be interesting to compare the stats with other professions e.g. how many teachers or sports coaches have had accusations made about them.

Abuse aside…THEY ARE ALL CHARLATANS. Living a cushy number as they spread their lies daily.

The clue is in the figure Sean – 1 in 14. So they are not all the same, and nobody is accusing them of all being abusers.
Nevertheless, the figure of 1 in 14 is frighteningly high compared to the population at large.

@mattoid but what are these wider figures. Like I said in my previous comment it would be interesting to know what these figures are.

@Frank – there’s not a lot of academic research on professions of perpetrators. Frankly, in my opinion (I work in the sector), it’s because a majority of abusers come into contact with children through a relationship of trust with the family (or are a family member) rather than in a professional capacity.

But obviously that doesn’t make the behaviour of these priests involved less heinous.

Yes Nick. I agree. In the case of my extended family, the perpetrator had been given a position of trust and access to children and he took advantage.

The way I see it was that the freedom the church had and the resulting access that gave to children, especially vulnerable children, must have made it an attractive profession for abusers.

With hindsight I think the people who founded the Republic and successive Governments, have a lot to answer for, in giving the church such a central role in our country. While i personally see the value in having religion taught at schools, the Catholic Church should never have been given the central role it has in the running of the education system. There were simply not enough checks and balances.

John.
I agree with you.
I am old enough to have been caned in school and I can say, hand on heart the greatest caning I ever got was from a lay teacher. That still wasn’t right and I dont go with the view that it did me no harm. It was wrong but it was the way of the time. However, I draw a huge distinction between corporal punishment and sexual abuse.
There is a huge difference.
I don’t think corporal punishment resulted in many suicides.

Well said Conor.
A sensible contribution.
Don’t be surprised if you are labelled sympathetic because you are not joining the posse calling for every church to be burned down and every priest tarred and feathered.
My own view is that any priest that would abuse a child is a monster just as any teacher would be. And any priest that serves his community well should be well and truly appreciated.
I can distinguish and I don’t feel the compulsion to attack them all.
Let’s deal in facts and not pure emotives.

I am curious to read your citation (exact, if you don’t mind) of the call “for every church to be burned down etc.”. More of that hysteria, I think…

Conor & Sean
Perhaps statistically Roman Catholic priests, and brothers, are no more likely than any other grouping to be active paedophiles? I do believe however that the opportunities presented to them by virtue of of their vocations present more opportunities than your average say building site labourer.
Furthermore your average building site labourer will be less inclined to preach to others on matters of morals and ethics especially in the realms of sexuality.

Mattoid.
If the figure 1 in 14 is much higher than the national average (and I would be interested to know what you base that on) then what about the figure from the victims of abuse group 1 in 4?

Most child abuse takes place in the home by family members and extended family and friends.

Perhaps you will accuse me of distorting FACTS here Sean. Every second male I know who was ‘educated’ at the hands of the ‘religious’ can recount tales of creepy brothers that you wouldn’t let yer cat sit beside! When they weren’t dishing out sadistic punishment they were ‘feeling up’ some kid or other…
Not too many officials from the Dept. of Ed. were charged with gathering the statistics of such occurrences rather those that did mention these events got a ‘sound clip on da ear for ‘imself’.
But I’m sure of course that the brothers and ‘religious’ when sitting around the refectory table for their evening boiled egg were totally unaware of the propensity for crime among some of their colleagues and the scraping of chairs in the rush to protect the innocent would have echoed loudly through the halls of these venerable institutions had they had.

sean, why have you assigned yourself the role of church apologist? the facts are that abuse was a way of life within the church. it was tolerated, it was hidden, and it continued. THE ONLY REASON it was tolerated and hidden was because it was and is an aspect of the “church.”

Why do we need it at all. It has largely been a force for evil and oppression and my family gets on fine without it.

That’s it mr Garvin just think of yourself. What about all the old biddies that take comfort in it? I bet you know a good few as well.

I’m thinking about my family Mr Lamp, if that is your real name. Who else should I be thinking of?

I really, REALLY want to challenge that myth that lots of children are lying. The highest estimate (in a study by TCD and London Metropolitan University) is that false rape claims are 9%. The study found that most of these were related to alcohol.

I think you should be careful before you assume there are “a lot” of unfounded claims and create a culture where survivors are afraid to report because they know they will be disbelieved.

Tom,
Can you back up your statement in regard to unfounded claims? If not then you should with draw it. Nick above is completely right, it can be extremely difficult for victims to come forward as it is, without further unfounded stigma being attached.

Sean Hickey; Pure Rubbish; You were nothing before you were born and you will be nothing after you expire, everything is a one off and all the achievements of humans amount to nothing even if we manage to survive until the Suns gravitational pull finally destroys this planet. You must face “the reality”

Thats a very depressing view of things Stephen… Nothing after you expire? Ever heard of Legacy? It also appears some people are nothing whilst they’re here!

Don’t agree with you Eoin. Any profession that has sexual restrictions placed upon eligibility is bound to attract people with sexual hangups or perversions.

Those statistics are pretty scary.

Its was a hiding ground for sexual delinquents..

Because of the actions of these priests professionals working with children/young people need stringent vetting.Its a measure that has come directly from this situation.

Ehhhh!? Have you read the title of this article by any chance? Clearly priesthood does not make a person a child abuser but it would certainly appear to be their career of choice.

I’m with Owen on this. Of course if you say this you get the usual 500 red thumbs and get accused of being sympathetic. 1st concern must be victims of abuse but also remember the 13 out of 14 here who have never been accused. Statistics are dangerous. One could also draw the interpretation if we go with the view of the group ’1 in 4′ that priests are probably much further down the offence list than family members.
The abuse is heinous but it’s also important we don’t take the view they’re all the bloody same.
It’s a sensationalist headline and we need to be careful here.
Let the onslaught begin.

And where did you pull that stupid statistic from exactly? Planet Owen; population One?

Mr owen what planet are you living on…also if the church allow them marry it will help them..not saying it will stop them because there are still a few sick rotten apples among them

Perhaps you’re right Sean, but how complicit were the 13 not accused in the culture of cover-up, concealment and lies?

Yes, but what Owen said is that most of these allegations are false. Interesting that he seems to believe that most allegations of childhood sexual abuse are false (which is totally opposed to what studies such as Dublin Rape Crisis Centre’s “Get Savi” report have found.)

Regardless of who the perpetrator is, all accusation of sexual violence should be taken seriously.

John Murphy hit the nail on the head.
The church covered up all sexual abuse cases/allegations for as long as they could, meaning the real offenders went undetected and free to abuse for decades. That is a fact which cannot be twisted like statistics.

Well indeed Caroline. You would wonder, since we’re dealing with statistics here, what percentage of Roman priests reported instances of paedophilia by their colleagues as was their moral and legal responsibility. Then we could get to getting down to patting these 13 priests on the head!

Oh dear! Silly me. Sure I forgot, they weren’t legally required to report this crime at all, at all. Wasn’t there a bit of an auld court case back in 1945 that said it was aright for ‘em to say nothing as long as they were priests. Well bugger me!

@John in my own extended family I’m aware of a case where children were sexually abused during the early 70s. Some family members found out about this in the early 90s, but it took 10 years for it to be reported to the authorities. I won’t go into the reasons why here, but suffice to say the Catholic Church doesn’t have a monopoly on covering up abuse.

I accept that Frank, and I am also led to believe that their may be a higher instance of paedophilia in family situations than in the Roman Church which I don’t set out to deny either.
What I’m referring to in my comments here is the use and abuse of professional positions of pastoral authority and care in the fields of health and education, and indeed in the community generally, that were cynically abused by the vilest of clerical criminals.
I do not want to negate any events that might have occurred in a family context but the nature of cover-up that typified the clerical situation was not as a result of any familial relationship but rather a kind of Mafia like ‘omerta’ that involved no other bond than a Roman collar.

name one other profession that has sexual restrictions r u serious

@Richard. My dad is a soccer scout and he’s had to go through hours of training around child protection. In addition there are numerous checks and balances to ensure that no scouts, coaches or managers have any 1 to 1 time with a child. These have been put in place to protect not only the child, but also the adult from potential false accusations.

That means 13 out of 14 are innocent.

No different than other forms of life?
That would be fine if you knew what happens to other forms of life.
What is your view but another blind faith without any evidence?
I don’t have any blind faith in anything.
I educate myself in the tremendous work that has been done in this field like in studies of near death experiences. I believe we should have an open mind.

Sean, in second level education I attended a non-denominational school with lay teachers. At the beginning of 2nd year 30% – 10 pupils in my class had come from the local Christian Brothers school which they had left (some even on the advice of their own local parish priest!) because of the ‘activities’ of one particular brother there. By Intermediate Cert level 50% of my class were ‘refugees’ from that school. Each had his own story to tell, which I must admit as teenagers we considered hilarious!
We made up jokes about it, sang songs and jeered the students who remained at his mercy in that school – to us at the time he was no more than a pathetic old bum-boy. That was back then, now most people realize how particularly dangerous such paedophiles really were. Oh, one more thing, in spite of the wide attention that his perversion attracted he continued to teach at that school up to a ripe old age.