VRT is the same. As is VAT. The money you use to pay for a car has already been taxes but an additional tax is then applied to it. Not saying its right, just that its nothing new.

The reason it’s unfair is that it only affects people who have savings. Those who are frivolous with their money get off scott free.

Yes Kevin but you have a choice as to wether to buy a new car that incurred VRT or a second hand one that doesn’t

Fair point

Paul

2nd hand cars have already had VRT applied to them, when they were registered.

VRT stands for Vehicle Registration Tax which is applied to every Irish car to enable them to get a registration number. As so it is applied once and once only. VRT is applied after VRT therefore considered a double tax.

VAT is Value Added Tax and is applied to all goods and services sold in Ireland. Where a car dealer sells a 2nd hand car or any business sells a 2nd hand item they charge VAT, even though VAT was charged on the car / item when it was new.

So should we also consider VAT charged on a 2nd hand item as a double tax? Maybe so.

I bet, the rich won’t feel the hit as much as the ordinary citizen. Yet it’s the rich and wealthy, that gambled and busted the banks and economy!

The EU can do as they like. It is all to do with Frau Merkel’s re-election. Russians have billions in Cypriot banks. She did not want German taxpayers bailoug out these olilgarchs

Yes, but VAT and VRT etc are taxes on consumption. Not the same as this case at all.

All that has happened in Cyprus is the Government applied a DIRT tax in a very crude way. They wanted the money/tax now – not in 12 months time. We’ve been paying DIRT tax for years on savings, whether it was on savings of €1 or €1 million – now the Cypriots and others will be paying it.

VRT is illegal under the free movement of goods in eu law.

This is not a tax, this is pure expropriation. And what about the EU wide deposit protection scheme? What about the Cyprus deposit protection scheme? What about ripping the rule book and placing sub-ordinated bond holders above the depositors? All of this don’t matter to the Dutch and German proponents of this scheme I guess because the deposit money is perceived to be of Russian criminals and retired expats from the UK.

And for those comparing this raid to DIRT, let me shed some light on the matter. A 100k will yield you 2.5k in interest assuming 2.5% rate (not happening in Cyprus but anyway) and the 25% DIRT on that is 0.5k. The 5.6% raid on the other hand is 5.6k on 100k meaning that they will take 12 years worth of DIRT in one go. So obviously, those of you comparing this to DIRT haven’t a faintest idea what you’re on about and probably haven’t ever received more than a tenner in annual interest from the grand you have with the local credit union.

Good god man, think. Of course it its not illegal. It wouldn’t exist if it were. You really shouldn’t believe everything that you hear.

9% or 6.75% can hardly be considered all of ones life savings.

well then SimonJBlake why don’t the bondholders take a 9% or 6.75% cut?!?!?!?!

Correct but do you not agree taking any % of savings is wrong?

Choices are
1. Let the banks go bust and customers get 10% of their money back if they are lucky.
2. Impose 10% tax on deposits (I assume bondholders get burnt to similar or greater degree) and everybody shares the pain.
I would choose option 2.
They have been told there is no other options available and will not be given bail out unless they agree to terms.

Its fair to say this democracy thing has crashed and the people that we elect to represent us have given us every indication over the last five years and beyond that the political and judicial system is broken beyond repair .avote for FF FG LAB GREENS is a vote for criminal activityand it will make no difference how close you are to a politician you will get burned by them .

How about 3?

Retain the protection for deposits under 100K that already exists under EU law.

Incidentally freezing the banking system for a day is also illegal under EU single market rules.

How many laws have to be broken to “save” the euro?

Could add to that Damocles, take the % from saving to help address the problems but saving taken get refunded with interest within 10 years (or something like that). That way the people are giving a loan to help the situation! (Might be a daft idea though!)

That’s why DDI has come on the scene a great new process no more party whip. I hope Ben Gilroy wins by election

A half price sale indicates a lack of demand. If mattresses were so popular (and getting scarce as supplies dry up) then the price should increase.

They did: it’s called DIRT tax

No that is a tax on the interest on savings. Not taking some of the actual savings.

They did, the levy on private pensions is no different.

We did. Pension Levy.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6830
0.6% each year for 4 years.

there’s nothing new here at all, same craic as there always is, the people pay while the bondholders get away!!

And are you as a guard not to have public opinions?

wait until it finally twigs that Ireland will be in need of a second bailout!

The government did (and continue) to raid private pension schemes here in Ireland. The fact that this is being called a “tax” so that the EU deposit guarantee laws can be circumvented is really crossing the line.

These reckless gamblers who gambled with their money by putting it in deposit accounts should be burnt and reckless bondholders who bought very safe, low yielding bonds. Burn them also.

While there is something to be said for the depositors in poorly run banks, who would have been picking up big interest rates as a result, picking up the tab for their poor investment: this is a very silly decision. Watch funds run out of Spain, Italy, Portugal and … Ireland.

Agreed joe..at least with the household and water charges the government try to spin them as charges for a service..as you said, this is just theft..and wouldnt at all be surprised to see it here!

DIRT already raids the few quid people have on deposit in this country already and they already raided the pension funds and now revenue given the powers to dip into your bank account.
VAT at highest levels ever, Universal poverty tax etc

We have accepted all of this already so why the outrage that the Cypriots have gone for those who have cash to spare.

Seems we are greatly upset for other nations but we don’t care about whats happening to ourselves.

When you consider it’s only wealthy people who have money saved, maybe it’s not such a bad idea?

“it’s only wealthy people who have money saved”

So anyone who isn’t living entirely hand to mouth is “wealthy”?

That’s infantile.

@Mike
Most savers aren’t wealthy, just prudent. All this does is punish the prudent and reward the feckless.

bullshit mattoid, many people genuinely cant afford to save, so you would prefer to tax those that can barely put food on the table? none of this is fair, but its most unfair on the poorest, the money should not have to be paid but if it is paid, it should be paid by those who wont be physically effected by the action of paying

actually Mike is right, there are billions in savings held in irish banks, just check out the central banks figures ….I wouldn’t normally agree with touching people’s saving but if they have a substantial amount, I’m not so sure (of course this is subject as it as a matter of opinion what substantial means, usually its someone with more than you have)

@RP
Yes, there are some who can’t afford to save, but thats not the whole picture.

Many in Ireland, myself included, often scrimped and went without in order to put aside a modest rainy day fund and provide a little more security for the future while others were all to happy to blow their money on meals out, alcohol, and other general stuff they didn’t need. Fair enough – its their money and their choice to do what they want with it, but why should I and others like me now be punished??

im not suggesting you should be punished but don’t tar all non-savers with the same brush, the reality is that almost everyone is getting punished for the mistakes of the few, including those that couldn’t afford to save, so that system is even more unfair, the difference in this case is they are targeting a group of people that are more likely to be pro-active about responding

Attackthetax.com join legal action against property tax

Are you a cavan man ?

here here!!

Yes – It Theft – but the robbers are getting away with it , here ,in UK Spain , Italy etc etc . Its no use saying – wait until 2015 – and we will vote against u – and put u out of office – u will be sorry then . They [ the politicins here in Ireland could not care less . they will hvae their Pensions , their directorships etc .
Iif someone atacked u in the street and robbed u – would anyone be ok with that situation . Yet – that is waht is happening here and in many countries

It’s a bank holiday there.

If they do this it’ll be charged before the banks reopen.

Reports indicate the deduction’ll have been made before banks reopen tomorrow.

Hearing banks now not opening till Thursday, this is an absolute disgrace.

Cypriot PM said he’ll make tomorrow a bank holiday also, to get these new laws in before banks reopen.

Andy remove them now, soon it will be too late??

Agree. In some cases people have paid income tax or Inheritance tax and then saved the net, paid DIRT on the interest or exit tax on the profits (if any) in the cases of investments. And in some cases all 4! What is worse is some people have their money in the post office giving the state access to these funds (hence the exemption of DIRT in most cases). It would then be an insult to be taxed on this for a 3rd time. The Pension levy is robbery enough!

Yes, Biggins. This Government is treacherous because it wants Cypriot people to pay back an element of their own debt from their savings rather than exposing Irish people to it. How treacherous that is of an Irish Government. Think before typing.

You know those goombaas who stand around in the background when the votes are counted and their man gets in,reminds me of someone,big cabbage heads on them!

You know those goombaas who stand around in the background while their candidates lose their deposits? Reminds me of someone….

Just like fg support Kevin,you lost me.

Haha good one Eoin….your not on your own. 2/3rds of the electorate are thinking the same way :)

@ryan- you’re still here? But your twitter account said you hated Ireland and wanted to leave? Remember? I pointed it out to you & you immediately changed it? Remember? I’m pretty sure aerlingus.com is still live. Though I suspect you’re more a Ryanair man? There are also ferries. It would upset me if you were in this country you hate any longer than you absolutely have to be.

@eoin- you’ll be sorely missed. I think Richard Boyd Barrett was more your type anyway.

There she goes again…she must be on the rag…watch out the journal….

BTW I hope that you’re not flirting with me Kevin because I don’t like butch and I’d hate to have to put you down. Woof

@ryan- I think you’d be grateful for anything you could get :)

jaysis kev you would need twice the brain to make a half-wit

@Peasant- I can but aspire to be an intellectual colossus like your good self.

aspire eh? you actually used a two syllable word in the right context, well done lad!

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, for ever and ever . . . . . . .

By removing the bank guarantee for depositors in Ireland our government are distancing themselves for what’s to come. They know that Cyprus is anything but a ‘special’ case and the fact that they are in the process (began before this assault on Cypriot depositors was publicly known) of stripping away protection for Irish depositors so as to be in line with German thinking on the issue. The sequence of events tells me this is a structured assault on the ordinary EU citizen for them to continue to bail out an essentially bankrupt and corrupt system…… So yes a fiscal war has been ongoing now for several years. As for the culprits, given that FG continually support the German line (of Merkle) then the likeliest aggressors are the Christian Democrat Union (CDU) collective within European politics.

probably lies and propaganda but could be true .

I’d like to think so but going by the apathy in both the young and older generations with the latter having been through this many times already in their lifetime is shocking to say the least. It’s amazing how today, a world full of people are being told daily what bad shit is happening can sit back watching everything only getting worse globally and there are still only pockets of people fighting for change on the streets. in my opinion we’re the ones prolonging the pain of this corrupted and broken system on ourselves. this is a global issue and needs a global response whether we like it or not

That’s exactly what I was thinking.

And they had found gas recently too..

Even a tax on savings over 100k will affect ordinary people, 150,000 for example, isn’t much if you sold your home in England after retirement, retired to Cyprus, deposited that money in one of their banks and planned to live out the rest of your days there. The governments are making serious mistakes, whatever confidence people may have had in banks is disappearing rapidly. I am closing my savings account tomorrow, there’s not much in it but what is there, I would like to be mine wholly.

God, you’re pathetic.

Kevin, the only thing pathetic here is your apparent support for a much despised, traitorous government.

it maybe morally repugnant to you personally, but if its written in law, however unjust you think that law is, it isn’t criminal and it isn’t theft. Far too often seeing that nonsense written in the comments section, or hear it on whineline (for the 3 seconds I can stomach listening to it).

he is pathetic shaw? on a different thread yesterday you were claiming to have done your bit for the country by ‘pounding the pavements’, then later in the same thread you claimed that you weren’t promoting any political party, so unless you were using a jack-hammer to remove a dangerous public path, then i suggest that wandering aimlessly about in your evening meanderings wasn’t much help to anyone

@biggins- yeah. I just wish I could follow a realistic alternative with a coherent, rationale well thought out medium term economic strategy like your beloved DDI. Oh wait, no. My mistake. They’re a bunch of clowns that no one is listening to, completely devoid of actual policies as opposed to populist aspirations.

I think we all know who ‘kevin’ is. He pops up out of his gopher hole to toe the party line i.e. excuse the inexcusable, or else to insult people who insult his dear leader or party policy. He cant argue, debate or even hold a conversation.

Yep, everyone else is SO pathetic ‘kevin’

@peasant- it’s pathetic to blame an incumbent Government for a mess they inherited. That werejammin’s memory can’t extend beyond two years is pretty sad. History will show that the calamity that has befallen this country was entirely of FF’s making and that this Government ( which is made up of two parties, by the way) only crime has been to try and mop up their mess as best they could. Rubbish as spouted above just succeeds in restoring the fortunes of FF as an amnesiac electorate returns to their fold. And you’re every bit as bad with your innocent, naive tripe about telling the EU where to get off and defaulting on debt. It’s great to be a dreamer but now’s not the time for messers.

Yep, its everyones fault except YOUR partys ‘kevin’. They just happen to be in government and happened to convert the illegal promissory notes into sovereign debt. Yes, nothing to do with them.

Yawn.

Ah, now…werejammin that’s very hurtful.

we will see kevin, a lot of people are starting to realise that the loyalty voter is the stupid voter and just how little morals our ‘leaders’ have, you just keep spouting your sycophantic clap-trap, when i read one of your posts, ive read them all

And what about the clowns in the current circus I suppose u think they are doing a fine job

So long as it’s legalised theft thats ok then i feel so much better now,it is this type of logic that allows governments to walk all over people.

The irony of an attention-seeking, narrow-minded, miserable excuse for a troll like you calling someone else pathetic only shows how deeply flawed an individual you are. Shill

That’s why FF are climbing up the polls. FG knew what they were inheriting but still chose to use lies to get elected and I’m not a FFer

@werejammin- if you thought the damage that FF did could be painlessly reversed in two years you’re a bigger clown than I thought.

poor ol kev, paralyzed from the neck up but still convincing himself that he can understand what’s happening

@peasant- having a go at the disabled?

yes…

Eh, isn’t assuming a fake identity to attack someone called trolling?

Only if it’s witty. And by Kevin’s standards a goldfish could be witty.

@ Padriag O’Utraged – Thank you for this, a bit of sense. The facts are what are, not what a person wants them to be. If I get diagnosed with cancer, saying “I don’t have cancer” isn’t going to help me any. You’re right when you say this is a legal action, it is not theft. It doesn’t mean I like it, but I have to admit to the truth:

“This is theft” – No it’s not.
“Its not our debt.” – Yes, it is.
“The Germans forced us into it.” – The Germans didn’t force us into anything. We asked for a bailout, the ECB gave us what we asked for.
“It’s the fourth Reich” – No, it’s not. Germany does not want to expand it’s territory, it’s still trying to come to terms financially with reunification. Merkel is the Europhile in the German parliament, saying she is a reborn Hilter is absolutely crazy, and there’s enough other German politicians who would be happy to remove Germany and all german aid from the EU.

etc, etc,

Of course it could. We have let the government walk over us all before, how could we stop it now.

Only if we require a second bailout, that could potentially be a condition attached. Which would people prefer…years of tough budgets that constantly chip away at our income or a painful once off hit followed by presumably less extreme budgets?
I’m still undecided myself but the only thing that is certain is the fact that it is going to be one of these options.

even if they didn’t directly go after savings in the bank here they’ve effectively robbed us as it is, have you seen the debt clock recently?? http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland The forestry and the rest are to be sold off for pennies and it will cost the state much more in the near to distant future than we could ever hope to get for the sale, our fishing is worth a fraction of what it was, our oil and gas is given away in such a way it benefits the Irish people in no way, shape or form, our water, air and food are being poisoned, services have been cut for 5 years now and we still haven’t hit rock bottom, I could go on and on and on so you can just add all the other horrible fallout from taking on the private and banking debt and letting those at the very top, yes the banking families that control the financial system and all it owns, Governments and media corporations, local councils, religion, food/water stocks, war on terror/drugs my arse!! all corrupted to the point of no return in my opinion. Our future and that of our unborn children and grandchildren depend on us changing this system by whatever means necessary. how much more of the mans bullshit are we going to take?? Not just locally or within Ireland, but globally because it’s global issue of too much power and control in too few, very tightly connected hands.

Hear hear, well put! Wake up people!

Theres no limit

Not sure there is any insult or injury that can awaken the “sleeping giant” of Irish citizenry. I expected it long before, but apparently emigration provides enough of a safety valve. The “Fighting Irish” – just an American football team, the real Irish are sheep to be sheared.

It was 21% in 2007, it’s now 33%. Bearing in mind that interest rates aren’t exactly massive either…

DIRT is a tax on the interest earned. It’s not a direct tax on your savings

we would be blessed to have strong inflation here, it would mean we could pay off personal debt and mortgages much faster, would destroy the banks though

The benefits of high inflation would be dwarfed by the disadvatages; ie, cost of living would rise while wages would not, so more people would either be pushed under the poverty line or forced to seek credit to make ends meet.

Be careful what you wish for.

yes, you are right, euro membership would make inflation worse than useless, even if we were to leave the euro inflation would still only cause harm because we would still owe money in euros, under normal circumstances controlled inflation can help a small economy, but of course we no longer control financial policy

Noonan’s plan on the promissory notes relies on inflation. But inflation is an uncontrollable beast that the EU has sworn to keep in its box …. so we have to have deflation instead and ain’t it working well! (but does that poke a hole in Herr Noonan’s promissory notes argument?)

In the past few years the cost of living in Cyprus has gone up rapidly. Somehow I doubt the wages went up with it.

DDI Ben Gilroy.

thats a different issue but as usual you cant see the wood for the trees, its using poor peoples hard earned money to protect the savings and investments of the rich that is so hard to stomach, try opening your eyes for once

No, peasant- between 35% and 50% of deposits in Cypriot banks are Russian investments. The EU’s argument is that it doesn’t want to cover billionaire Russian oligarchs. So it’s not the common man being targeted and it looks today like an even higher rate will be applied to those above €100k and a lower rate applied to those below it to rebalance the suffering away from ordinary Cypriots. I dont like it in principle, either but the alternative mechanism would be draconian taxation in Cyprus which most certainly wouldn’t help the common man or hurt outside investors. So who can’t see the wood from the trees?

still clouding the issue, they are stealing money from peoples savings there, over here they steal the money to protect peoples savings, we want to see an end to the theft no matter what form it takes

Maybe the alternative would be to burn the bond holders.

I wish you’d mentioned that earlier, Paul. If only someone had thought of that?

” the euro zone has again shown that no principle is above political meddling. The cleaner solution would have been a 20% haircut on deposits over €100,000, with writedowns on all bank debt. This would have respected creditor hierarchy and, by not trampling on deposit insurance, honored the rule of law.”

When the wall Street Journal, the voice of free-for-all capitalism, says this, who am I to argue with them?

PS North of Ireland banks welcome Southern depositors!

@Barry: Do you need to have a NI address to open an account up there. I have no idea…

Andrea, I do not have one myself but The people I know who opened Northern accounts just needed the usual papers: personal ID and proof of address. They had no problems.

@ Paul – What bondholders? How are these mythic figures in this particular case??

Don’t just red-thumb, answer the question, who are the bondholders in this particular case? ( Hint: Cyprus’ inability to finance itself is a direct result to their reliance and exposure to the Greek economy ). “Burn the bondholders”? Who is there to burn in this case?

What they are doing here is trying to Scare/Ride…the shit out of ordinary working people who try to save a few quid every week from their shit wages for a rainy day. Dont worry ,,the real rich will not suffer.

So the government should just ignore your 100k euro bank guarantee and take what they want? What makes you so special after all?

The guarantee only applies in the case where a bank goes bust. That’s not the case here, so the guarantee sadly does not apply.

Ah Nikolas, you know as well as I do that’s just a fig leaf. If it wasn’t for this “bailout” those banks would be bust. Technically, they are bust.

Fig leaf or not, it removes the conflict between the levy on smaller investors and the bank guarantee itself. I never said this levy was a good thing, only that they’ve covered the angles on claims of illegality.