@Faceless Man – Interesting results containing another bunch of lies, perpetuated by Irish Mammies everywhere filling in the form with fantasies of how her family are.

I saw reports of church attendance in Dublin being as low as 14%, while 84% of the country claim to be Catholics.

The census has been made a sham of. It’s good for some numbers but anything that people are trusted to fill in honestly is worthless as people just aren’t trustworthy.

Very good point. People must be saying “Catholic” because that’s what they used to be. It’s more a cultural thing. Maybe we could extend it:

Do you believe in:-

God or gods
Heaven
You have an everlasting soul
Devil/s
Angels (My mother reckons she has a “parking angel” that finds parking spaces for her)
Possession by evil spirits
Keeping women in their place; pregnant and in the kitchen
Gay people are sinners that will burn in Hell
Talking snakes
The world & Universe is about 6,000 years old
The world is flat
The world is at the centre of the Universe
Evolution is a lie from the depths of Hell
Jesus will return and rule from Missouri, USA
Ghosts
Leprechauns
Pishogues
Fairies
Magic trees & rings in fields that if you try to destroy them you die

I love how “practicing Catholic” means “someone who goes to mass” instead of “someone who lives their daily life according to the teachings of Christ”.

It’s as if when we said “practicing Buddhist”, we meant “someone who wears funny robes” instead of someone who lived their day-to-day life trying to adhere to the five precepts of bhuddist ethics.

Perhaps if our idea of what a “practicing religious person” was based on what they did every day instead of for an hour once a week, we’d have fewer problems…

Séan, this Irish Mammy always asks! I don’t know what the census takers made of the year this house returned: 2 RC’s (elderly uncle and son about to do 1st communion), 1 agnostic (son deciding NOT to do confirmation), 1 atheist (me), and 1 “oblivionist” (trophy hubby).

My favourite comment so far. Fully agree!

Seems to be a bit of confusion between the terms “agnostic” and “atheist”

Bob,
You really do go on quite a bit and say very little.
I am very glad that I don’t have your need to believe in something of which there isn’t a shred of tangible evidence, apart from the dubious scribbles of some demented monks.
You do not bore me but I find you slightly amusing

I reckon that Bob, might be a priest.
Nobody could be so blindly persistent and put so much energy into a perceived interpretation of the writings of people whose credentials are at best, blurred by the passage of time. You also have an arrogance in telling people what and how to think, or how they are thinking.

comment of the week :)

I practice being awsome because without me it would just be awso

Damocles – what a legend!

@Maggie – If you’ve no belief in a God, you’ve no religion to practice.

Fair play on coming to the realisation that you did. It’s hard for people brought up Catholic to walk away from it.

Thats what I was thinking initially Sean but I would still be classed as a member of the church and would make up the numbers of people who don’t attend so that was what swayed me to vote NO. I think that there are a lot of people like me out there, bapthised, probably did the communion and confirmation but in the years since have walked away. Until the Church allow us to remove our names though the figures are never going to be accurate.

@Maggie – Ah, you may still be down on their books but that doesn’t mean they hold the title of being your religion. I could go down and stick myself down as a Catholic tomorrow, while privately worshiping Allah. Would that make me a Catholic or a Muslim?

Similarly, I can be a Catholic on paper (I’m not) and not believe in a God which makes me an Atheist, not a Catholic.

There are a lot of people out there like you, the census showed that. Catholic on paper, atheist in belief and confused over the wording of a question like “What is your religion” thanks to their parents signing them up for something before they were old enough to speak.

You *can* write to the church and be removed, as far as I remember. Check the Boards.ie Atheism & Agnosticism forum, I’m almost certain I saw details on how to do it there.

It’s the old Dara O’Briain joke. “I’m an atheist, but obviously I’m a Catholic. I don’t attend Mass, but I hate the Rangers!”

I’m afraid you can no longer formally leave the church. It was called ‘an act of formal defection’ and only existed in canon law for a handful of years. When it became more popularly known about it was done away with. They don’t use baptismal records (which were the ones amended when one left) for numbers of Catholics, they use census data. The census question was laid out badly which added to the confused results.

@ Nick – Well said!

Hi Maggie…I would hazard a guess and say that you have never voluntarily signed a document or sworn allegiance to the catholic church as a child or adult. So, you are being counted by the fact that you were baptised at a time in your life when you didn’t even know where you were.
In order to become a member of an organisation you first have to express an interest, then you must approach the relevant people in charge and make a formal request to join.
I am certain that you did not do this when you were 6 months old.

@Michelle – Fair play.

Good call Michelle, as Disreali said, ‘where knowledge ends religion begins’. Unfortunately the Irish system promoting unquestioned submission to religion rather than a healthy objectionable approach to it.

Yea, like all other myths.

Indeed, god is dead. Even if some may still cling on to the idea it’s intellectually redundant.

I disagree, the catholic religion is slowly decaying but others like Muslim are growing frantically and now have a ever growing following across Europe and the USA

Society has made it easy for Christians to escape their religion, we need to make it as easy now for Muslims to do likewise.

The existence of a Higher Mind (God for short) has the implied acknowledgement of all who accept that more discoveries lie ahead for humanity.

Not at all Tom. I know well that humanity has plenty more left to discover in this wonderful universe of ours – any scientist will tell you that – but that just proves how little we actually know of our surroundings, not that some higher power necessarily created them.

Hi Finbarr..
I have no problem because I know where they are every Sunday, locked away in a grey building mumbling holy sounds and eating their god. As soon as they walk outside they change back to the careless shits that they were before they went in. While they are inside we have to contend with their abandoned vehicles double parking and parking in front of gateways. Of course this is OK now that god knows where they are he will come down in a high-vis jacket and look after the traffic problems created by these loose brains.

Does that not just make all those that use the church for the reasons you mentioned a bunch of hypocrites.

People not practising religion are merely idiots who have been fooled by Satan. Turn your back on God and prepare to pay the price. We are surrounded by evil and people are easily fooled into believing that it doesn’t really exist.

Julie, I got news for you..
In the bible, the guys committing homicide and destroying the world and everyone on it are your God and his Angels.
Satan just shows up and says hello occassionally, offers people fruit.. He doesn’t actually do anything wrong bar cure Adam and Eve of their *ignorance* ad tempt Jesus (who if he’s meant to be god anyway how could he be tempted?)

Perhaps you should take a look at your religion before you say silly things like that..

Jaysus you’d be fun on a night out Julie.

I wake up every day and thank God I’m an atheist!

I’d like to see a pole on weather or not you would get your child baptised if you were to have one… I don’t think I would…

Hi Julie who/where is this god you speak of…bring him/it to me for my approval.
Also this Satan chap bring him/it to me for my approval.
Come jester amuse me with thine mirthful antics.

Can I add ten more thumbs up for Shanti Ohm above…”Satan turns up occasionally offering fruit…” LOL!!!

Julie, there are many gods….many which exist far far longer then the christen faith.

If a god exists, can you be sure you believe in the right one?

What if satan created the christen faith and you’ve been led up the garden path, ever stop to think of that?

Or the much more likely situation is there is no god and you believe in a make believe being,

Mine is a very sad story…I had to leave the church as it is in direct conflict with my vegan ideals.
No flesh or blood products for me, thank you very much.

The same happened me when they wanted to confirm some details from me – They had me listed as Catholic. I never once at any point in my life told them that I was a catholic.

Mad.

Also, I should have typed “Iggle Piggle”, not “Iggle Poggle”.

Iggle Poggle is not real.

There are some religions that prohibit some medical procedures. There is one religion – the name of which escapes me right now – that prohibits blood transfusions, for example. Maybe that’s why they ask?

@John: I imagine that’s why. Jehova’s Witnesses are against blood transfusions.

And Christian Scientists are opposed to all medical intervention. But everyone I knew who was Christian Scientists wore an ID bracelet similar to one people with diabetes or nut allergies wore to alert paramedics.

Guess they didn’t read their bibles so.. Jesus promised the hypocrites a special place in hell with “weeping and gnashing of teeth”..

Mick – all religions are philosophical.

Yeah but Bob in Buddhism there is no “God”, it’s about practicing to attain enlightenment – or Buddhahood. Anyone who achieves said enlightenment *becomes* a Buddha which is why there’s so many of them.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say it is a life path rather than a religion?

@ Shanti – thanks Shanti, I’m very familiar with the claims of the Buddhist. However both systems are basic views about life through which all facts and experiences are interpreted. Both are worldviews containing presupposed religious or fundamental beliefs which one accepts by faith.

May I ask, what is “claims of the Buddhist” supposed to mean?
I’m not sure what you are trying to say here..

@ Shanti – You’re spot on, it would have better read “the claims of Buddhism”, apologies for that.

All worldviews/religions, wether a supernatural being is assumed or not, come under the umbrella of philosophy, including atheism :-)

Ah Ok, now I get ya!

Adam, why are you a Muslim then? Do you really believe Mohamed went to heaven on a magic carpet?

@Adam, there is a world of difference between mocking a belief and mocking the person. Most comments here belittle the belief rather than the believer, whether or not you accept the distinction. It’s also mainly targeted at Catholicism (as distinct from all the Mammies who practice it, and who, with the best will in the world, like to think we are still on the right path to salvation as they have been taught to think) as for most Irish people this is the faith they were born into and probably the one they have personally rejected. That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof, or even respect. Do you really think commenters are mocking and disrespecting their own parents? That’s not what I have seen here.

Never heard of any Atheists killing in the name of not believing. (I am talking about all religions not just Islam)

Sadly Adam it is other adherents to religions who *don’t* hold it as a personal thing and instead like to bash others over the head with their beliefs that has led to this.

The non believers or those with different beliefs have been persecuted all along, this is kinda their retaliation, but it’s not personal. Speaking for myself – I have no issue with others believing whatever they want, provided they aren’t going to try and tell me it’s the absolute truth because no one has that figured out for sure.

What I don’t understand, and I do not mean this as an insult, just a serious question, is how someone can call themselves say, a Jew or Christian or Muslim – and then *not* be a fundamentalist? These scriptures beg fundamentalism, each one is full of blood and killing and other quite disgusting acts attributed to the god they are all supposed to share. They all teach that each group is preferred above all others for their beliefs..

To be a moderate is like saying “well I believe in the flowery peace and love stuff but we’ll just skim over the nasty bigoted, hateful shit”, which means you don’t really follow the religion at all, it means that you identify yourself as part of a religion when according to the scripture you are not a true believer (and will go to hell with the rest of us).

At least the fundamentalists and extremists are being honest. This is what their religion makes them, it’s the way the scripture tells them to behave. If you are picking and choosing from scriptures – do you reckon the god described in them is going to be happy that you felt you knew better and that you could ditch a chunk of his teachings? I wouldn’t count on it.. And as for its hatred of hypocrites, might be better for all those moderates out there to give up the ghost and ditch the religion that they’re all only half following on the off chance that it might be true..

@Shanti – There are many Atheist Jews. Being a Jew is just not a religious term it is also describes ones ethnicity, descent, ancestry, etc.

I take your point – to clarify, I’m talking about the ones claiming it as their religion and not the ones who would state it as their race. In order for one to be a religious Jew they need to follow the Torah.
It isn’t really the same thing, but it would be similar to those who put catholic down on the census because they went to a catholic school and are counted as Catholics, as opposed to those who actually believe in it and attend mass.

When I was six I was a practicing catholic, I practiced every day for a few years and now I am a perfect Atheist.

I agree Shanti. But the term Irish-Catholic is a unique term; there are people of Irish-Catholic ancestry while their family is not Catholic. If people were going to be specific about their Irish Ancestry, they could classify their ancestry as Irish-Catholic or Irish-Protestant. I find the term to be only promoting division and pointless. The groups that contribute to the identity of an Irish-Catholic are mainly (Irish-Gaels, Vikings, Gallowglass-Scots, Anglo-Normans/English (Old English), Norman-French, and Welsh. The groups that contribute to Irish-Protestants ancestry are mainly (Ulster-Scots, Anglo-Irish, Welsh, French Huguenots, and Old English). Though of course there are a number of Irish-Catholics that descend from Protestants that settled Ireland during the plantations or who just immigrated to Ireland independently; same goes for Irish-Protestants have ancestors that are Irish-Catholic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Catholic

Being Irish “catholic” is not a term I would ever use to describe myself, whether my ancestors were or not.. That must be a very strange place to be for Jewish Atheists – especially if they outright reject Judaism..

Shanti I wouldn’t use the term either, as I said it only promotes division in my opinion. 60% of Israelis believe in God and Jews in general are a pretty liberal people. It’s not that strange. My friend is Jewish and he works at his Synagogue but doesn’t actually believe in anything religious.

And here we come full circle – it’s all very well and good picking and choosing which parts of a religion to choose to subscribe to, but does it mean that you are a true believer?

Because the religions themselves are the problem, they are what cause the division and the bigotry and the hate – its people picking and choosing bits of scripture that removes these aspects. The religions are poisonous, but not all of their followers are – and this is because the followers aren’t really following, they’re making it up as they go along. So why identify with that religion when in reality they are actually creating a whole new one?

Shanti I agree with what you are saying? You’re saying it like I don’t share this viewpoint.

Am I Kevin? Sorry, that wasn’t my intention!! I know you are atheist we have discussed it before :) in my defence I was under the impression we were in agreement too – I guess my words failed me (text is not my best medium!)

Correction to my comment above…I should have said I am a Realist but realistically I am not perfect.

Oh lol sorry, no worries.

It’s because you believe in sky fairies who listen to your mumblings. It’s because if your god did exist he has to be completely evil to let his people live this way. It’s because you believe in shite that has no evidence. Why does your god not show himself if he is real. I mean WHY?
Try taking a step back and looking at the story of your god and look at it as someone who hasn’t been brought up with it does.

Agree Adam it is rude to insult people about their beliefs and not a sign of great maturity – non-religious people also believe stuff I am sure that does not stand up to scientific scrutiny (lottery ticket anybody?!). There is a difference between respecting individuals and their right to think and believe what they want and respect for all of those different, and often conflicting, belief systems themselves. I am most at odds with belief systems that go beyond the personal and trample on my rights as a non-believer – for example our Catholic education system – we should have public services that cater to ALL citizens.

Michelle, I got more red thumbs than green for asking Adam did he believe Mohammed went to heaven on a magic carpet. Was that because that’s a “rude” question? I’ve double checked, he was a sleep on a carpet and then went to heaven on “a magical Winged-Horse of Fire which he called Burak”. Does Adam believe in magical winged horses? Or is that another “rude” question?

Someone above made the point that most religious people don’t actually follow their religion as to do so and to believe what their holy books tell them is so absurd that even most seriously brainwashed people can’t accept the nonsense. Does Adam believe that a Muslim who decides that Islam is just superstition should be executed? Now that I now expect a reply.

Funny Joe, what’s your belief system?

What is a belief system, if you mean religion I don’t have one.

I mean your worldview, your basic beliefs about life?

Bob I think that the world would be a better place without religion. Ethics science compassion and reason is a good basis for any society, religion undermines all of these.

I disagree. Religion is exactly as good as the people who follow it. My religion has been one of the major proponent for equal marriage in the UK, a strong advocate for social justice and one of the major reasons conscious objector status was recognised in the first World War.

Can you honest argue the world would be a better place without Quakerism?

Thanks for the comment Joe,

A religion or philosophical system, whether it ‘professes’ a belief in a god or not, is something that every person actually possesses.

I agree that ethics, science, compassion and reason are a good basis on which to build a successful society. However, all of these things are built upon unseen, unchanging, universal entities. Therefore, one must give an account for these entities before attempting to use that which is built upon them.

For instance, you want to rely upon ethics. However, in order to have ethics, one’s way of thinking must be able to provide a solid basis for right or wrong.

You believe that we should have compassion towards one and other. But, within an atheistic/evolutionary worldview, how does one chemical show compassion towards another?

You want to rely on logic or reason. Your worldview must then provide a foundation for something immaterial, something that’s law-like (the laws of logic).

And then there’s your appeal to science. In order to have science, your worldview must be able to account for uniformity in nature, without which science itself is impossible.

It is the Biblical worldview that provides the necessary foundation upon which these systems may stand.

Rubbish Bob; Nothing in nature is entirely predictable, it is diverse and ever changing in order to survive. The bibly or any other fairy story, has no place in the mind of modern humans except as a fantasy, just like Walt Disney or Harry Potter.
In so far as everybody having a philosophical bent, forget about it; we are born with a clean hard drive and these religious lunatics get in there straight away with an operating system that controls from within. Once they get it into your head it acts like a computer virus and turns you into a zombie.
Religion just wants to coral people so that they know what you are thinking, well I am a free thinker and my reasoning comes from an open mind, always ready to accept the latest information and adjust my position accordingly.
I noticed you asking some what is their belief system. Well I don’t need a belief system except that I believe in checking and double checking my surroundings and if your god wants me to believe in it then it knows where I am so come and get me.
My life is too short to go searching for this god who makes such an effort to hide on everyone. Oh! its just ridiculous even discussing such nonsense.

Do we have to have a fixed belief system that is usually the same as our parents and we carry with us unchanging throughout our lives? To me it can be a dangerous thing to stick rigidly to an off the peg belief system (I understand cherry-picking is not encouraged!). If you mean rather basic values, I am sure we all have them but do not necessarily want to make a song and dance about them as belief systems. Mine include many common human values that religions do not have the copyright on such as compassion, forgiveness, interdependence, co-operation, giving, helping, sharing, respecting, respect for all life forms, nature and the environment, mindfulness, gratitude, openness to everyday experience and new learning, and perhaps a simple acknowledgement that I do not know everything!

@ Ephen – thanks for the comment, I have responded to you in separate sections below.

“Rubbish Bob; Nothing in nature is entirely predictable, it is diverse and ever changing in order to survive.”

According to your worldview maybe. But that’s the point I’m making; only the Christian worldview can make sense of uniformity. If there is no basis for prediction. there’s no basis for science. Laws by the way are not “ever changing”, they are invariant. Which is why, given your chance, unguided universe, you’re going to find it hard to account for them, even though you continue to use them.

“The bibly or any other fairy story, has no place in the mind of modern humans except as a fantasy, just like Walt Disney or Harry Potter. ”

If you have a logical argument to make against the Bible, I would love to hear it, otherwise this is simply arbitrary.

“In so far as everybody having a philosophical bent, forget about it; we are born with a clean hard drive and these religious lunatics get in there straight away with an operating system that controls from within. Once they get it into your head it acts like a computer virus and turns you into a zombie. ”

If you read my post again I never mentioned anything about when a person adopts a particular worldview, I was simply stating that everybody has got one! It is a persons worldview that helps them make sense of their surroundings, science etc..

“Religion just wants to coral people so that they know what you are thinking,”

That may well be true for some worldviews, but that’s not the Christian point of view.

” well I am a free thinker and my reasoning comes from an open mind, always ready to accept the latest information and adjust my position accordingly.”

Reasoning certainty doesn’t come from open-mindness. It helps to be open-minded but reason itself is based on laws, the laws of logic. I too am open minded, I’m open to being right and I’m open to being wrong because I am open to the truth. Truth by nature doesn’t change.

Information won’t necessarily change your point of view. The reason for this is because your worldview is what you use when making sense of information.

“I noticed you asking some what is their belief system. Well I don’t need a belief system except that I believe in checking and double checking my surroundings”

Notice the discrepancy here; you don’t need a belief system and then you proceed to tell me your belief system. The point of view that states you don’t need a belief system is by itself a belief system, it’s just a self refuting one.

“and if your god wants me to believe in it then it knows where I am so come and get me. My life is too short to go searching for this god who makes such an effort to hide on everyone.”

Ephen, that’s the point of Christianity…God did come and “get you”. He sent His son to pay for your sins. He did this so He could “get you”. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man that hides from God. The Bible tells us that He has made Himself known to every man so that they are without excuse. I sure hope you see this!!

“Oh! its just ridiculous even discussing such nonsense.”

I appreciate your comments.
Bob

@Bob, have you studied all the major and minor world belief systems? Those are some fairly wild claims about the things only achievable through Christianity!
There is basis for prediction, there is experience, there is comparison with similar and extrapolation, lots of ways to predict which are not based on Christianity. And what about things always remaining the same? Let’s take morality, a it’s sometimes used as a selling point by people who accept that factually Christianity is, well, iffy to say the least, that it is at least a moral compass. Laws are constant, remember that, even laws of morality? Lot was saved as a virtuous man. He offered his virgin daughters to be gang-raped by a lusty rowdy crowd. Such a virtuous and moral man. And he raised a good family, well he may have made a mistake with the wife -an entire city was being destroyed behind her (by the all-loving god) and the filthy wench glanced behind her to see the pyrotechnics and was instantly turned to salt, that’ll learn her! But those virtuous virgin daughters who were saved, along with their righteous and moral father (the offerer of said daughters to gang of would-be rapists) ended up in a cave, spared the destruction of their city by their virtue. Bt boredom is a terrible thing so when their dad passed out drunk they pre-meditatively took turns at jumping his bones while he slept to get pregnant by him. Yes, consistency, and these are the same morals we use today. Christianity may not be true but it’s a moral compass! Ha! A compass is only useful if it always points north.

But that’s the old testament! Well, Jesus came to atone for our sins. Well, the imaginary one, the one about seeking knowledge, becoming aware of their nakedness and ignorance. Isn’t there a rule about the sins of the father not being visited on the son? But the sins of the fictitious character can be passed on to all of humanity? Ok. I don’t suppose we’re allowed to just plead not guilty to that one? Nope. God must forgive us and he demands a sacrifice to be offered. So he has himself born as his own son to be tortured and killed so that he himself may forgive us for something that never happened in the first place, or that if it did happen, we were not the ones who did it… Wouldn’t it be easier to say ‘all is forgiven’ without the torture and masochism? Too simple?

Hi Paul…I just gave you a thumbs for eloquently stating what I was just too exhausted to bother with. Thanks.

@ Paul

“@Bob, have you studied all the major and minor world belief systems?”

No I haven’t Paul, but I’m very familiar with the majority of the major worldviews. If there’s a particular view that you’d like to discuss feel free to raise it.

“Those are some fairly wild claims about the things only achievable through Christianity!”

They certainly are extraordinary claims Paul, but I wouldn’t say wild. Christianity can account for the preconditions that are necessary to make sense of the things that Joe has raised, like reason & science. What I’m saying is that the other worldviews can not and are therefore irrational.

“There is basis for prediction, there is experience, there is comparison with similar and extrapolation, lots of ways to predict which are not based on Christianity.”

In order to make sense of science you are going to have to have a worldview that can account for the principle of induction. To say that you expect future events to reflect the past based on experience is to beg the question. I want to know, If the God of the Bible doesn’t exist, and all things are not held together by the Word of His power, how can we expect accurate predictions in any field of study?

“And what about things always remaining the same? Let’s take morality, a it’s sometimes used as a selling point by people who accept that factually Christianity is, well, iffy to say the least, that it is at least a moral compass. Laws are constant, remember that, even laws of morality?”

I’m not sure what it is that you are trying to say here, but if you’d like to explain morality without the Bible, I welcome your explanation.

“Lot was saved as a virtuous man. He offered his virgin daughters to be gang-raped by a lusty rowdy crowd. Such a virtuous and moral man. And he raised a good family, well he may have made a mistake with the wife -an entire city was being destroyed behind her (by the all-loving god) and the filthy wench glanced behind her to see the pyrotechnics and was instantly turned to salt, that’ll learn her! But those virtuous virgin daughters who were saved, along with their righteous and moral father (the offerer of said daughters to gang of would-be rapists) ended up in a cave, spared the destruction of their city by their virtue. Bt boredom is a terrible thing so when their dad passed out drunk they pre-meditatively took turns at jumping his bones while he slept to get pregnant by him. Yes, consistency, and these are the same morals we use today.”

You are confusing Christianity (an un-changing philosophical system) with the people that profess a belief in Christianity. People are not always consistent with their worldview, but thankfully God is. But I must ask you, If all we are is molecules in motion, why would any of this be immoral?

“Christianity may not be true but it’s a moral compass! Ha! A compass is only useful if it always points north.
But that’s the old testament! Well, Jesus came to atone for our sins. Well, the imaginary one, the one about seeking knowledge, becoming aware of their nakedness and ignorance.”

If you have a logical claim to make against original sin, let’s hear it!!!

“Isn’t there a rule about the sins of the father not being visited on the son? But the sins of the fictitious character can be passed on to all of humanity? Ok. I don’t suppose we’re allowed to just plead not guilty to that one? Nope. God must forgive us and he demands a sacrifice to be offered. So he has himself born as his own son to be tortured and killed so that he himself may forgive us for something that never happened in the first place, or that if it did happen, we were not the ones who did it… Wouldn’t it be easier to say ‘all is forgiven’ without the torture and masochism? Too simple?”

It sounds like you just need to attend a basic Bible study to me. I can easily explain the purpose of salvation, sin and the atonement in a perfectly consistent manner within the Christian worldview, but you won’t accept it. It doesn’t bother me though that you don’t accept the claims about sin and so on, because you have simply applied your irrational worldview when attempting to make sense of my rational one. Look over the claims that both you and I have made and ask yourself, who is making logical sense? You have merely asserted your opinion to which I disagree. But I am at least trying to offer a philosophical reason as to why I reject your claims and why you should accept the claims of the Bible.

I apologise though for boring Ephen. I hope Paul that my comments got you to at least think about these important issues from a different perspective.

Thanks a mil, Bob

When Laplace was explaining his model of the solar system it was pointed out to him that it was incomplete, there was no god in it. His reply: I have no need of that hypothesis. His system works because of the laws of physics. The big bang, the expanding universe ad infinitum, ‘the god particle’ can all be explained with evidence and without reference to the hypothesis of a creator. In fact, since the creator must have an origin or be in some was explained, it needlessly complicates matters.

Morality, likewise does not need a god. It is simply a social construct, a social contract. It suits all members of a society that we should all be relatively free of the threat of violence, theft or having others prejudicially affecting our best interests. It is a quid pro quo. I don’t hurt others even though there sre people I could exploit because I have empathy for my fellow creatures and also because I do not want to be hurt, I have a vested interest in the existence of a civilised society without cruelty or harm.

I do not have to come up with an argument against original sin. Religious people who see religion and god as self-evident always make this mistake. It is simply illogical that I should argue for nothing. I cannot prove there is no invisible teapot circling the earth, and neither can you, yet you see this failures to prove a negative as some sort of proof of the existence of a positive?

The references I made to the stories of the bible were not references to the morality or otherwise of the actions of christians but of their god, his judgement. Lot and his daughters moral. Wife checking for explosions catching up with her, immoral, punishment:death. This is clearly inconsistent with what we understand as morality.

Finally, your claim about only christianity offering a worldview that was consistent would require you o have studied EVERY other worldview with an open mind. (Can the other Abrahamic religions not also make the same claim? And if they can, your ‘only’ is clearly false advertising based on research that is probably impossible to complete.) Your mind is closed to the possibility that we are all here by accident and that life can have no more meaning than that which we give it, that it not to say that it is meaningless but that its value is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

@ Paul

“When Laplace was explaining his model of the solar system it was pointed out to him that it was incomplete, there was no god in it. His reply: I have no need of that hypothesis. His system works because of the laws of physics.”

I don’t expect you to accept the claims of Christianity just because I say that they are true. And I’m not going to accept the claims of Pierre Laplace just because he says so either. To say that we don’t need to give an account for laws, that they simply exist, and that we don’t have to have an explanation for their existence, but were going to continue to rely upon them, is to say that my worldview cannot account for logic and is therefore irrational.

“The big bang, the expanding universe ad infinitum, ‘the god particle’ can all be explained with evidence and without reference to the hypothesis of a creator.”

I strongly urge you (not for the sake of argument but for the sake of reason) to think-through your position.

Firstly, the bang has never been observed Paul. You may point to certain aspects of nature and construct unsubstantiated conjectures about the past, but you can not ultimately prove what has happened in the past by merely reflecting on what we observe in the present. This is especially true if the event supposedly occurred as long as 15-20 billion years ago (and especially in a chance universe). Homicide experts are often unable to solve murder cases even minutes after the murder took place! You can make un-provable assumptions about what you believe may have happened, but Christians can do the very same. The Christian also looks at the observable present and is delighted to find evidence in support of his presupposed views about the past. This is why you can’t get away from worldviews. It is your worldview that helps you to make sense of what you observe in nature and what you believe to be true concerning the past.

Secondly, nothing can be explained by evidence alone. Evidence exists period. It doesn’t speak nor tell us anything for sure about the past, we must interpret the evidence. This we do by the understanding and use of our basic presuppositions. If “all can be explained with evidence” one must eventually ask the question “what evidence did you use to explain the very statement itself, that all can be explained by evidence?”

“In fact, since the creator must have an origin or be in some was explained, it needlessly complicates matters.”

The creator Himself has always existed, He is self authoritative. He created time space and matter – that’s the Christian worldview claims about His existence. Every worldview must eventually arrive at this point. It must reach the place where something came first and there is no escaping that.

“Morality, likewise does not need a god.”

You’re view of morality may not need a god but without God it’s simply arbitrary and unreliable. Without some unchanging law-like system of ethics, morals are reduced to mere opinion. And you don’t need to be too intelligent to figure out the limits of this view. Consider the murderer who thinks it’s perfectly fine to murder his victim in cold blood. Is he wrong because you say he is? What if he doesn’t accept your view of morals, does that make him right?

“It is simply a social construct, a social contract. It suits all members of a society that we should all be relatively free of the threat of violence, theft or having others prejudicially affecting our best interests. It is a quid pro quo. I don’t hurt others even though there sre people I could exploit because I have empathy for my fellow creatures and also because I do not want to be hurt, I have a vested interest in the existence of a civilised society without cruelty or harm.”

I’m certain that you haven’t interviewed every member of society to learn about their views on violence and are therefore unable to know what level of violence suits each member!
In a chance universe, why should one chemical accident care about the ‘interests of another chemical accident? Can we impose rights upon chemicals and punish a person for merely obeying the laws of physics and committing a crime? You see, caring for the interest of others and moral values in a world where all we have is matter in motion and the survival of the fittest reigns, just doesn’t make any sense.

“I do not have to come up with an argument against original sin. Religious people who see religion and god as self-evident always make this mistake. It is simply illogical that I should argue for nothing.”

Every worldview has a self-authoritative starting point. Take the materialistic point of view for instance. His view states that nothing created everything (there are variations of this but they basically start with nothing or a tiny amount of matter that came from nowhere). No-one was around to observe this at the time to verify this claim. This claim therefore, as you put it, is “self-evident”. When it comes to a worldview debate, it’s one of the few times in logic where circular reasoning is actually valid or non-arbitrary. The reason for this is because it simply cannot be avoided. God is our self-evident, self authorising author, and there’s nothing illogical about this whatsoever.

“I cannot prove there is no invisible teapot circling the earth, and neither can you, yet you see this failures to prove a negative as some sort of proof of the existence of a positive?”

I’m not making the type of claim that says “God exists somewhere in the sky now prove me wrong”. What I’m claiming is that without first assuming the existence of the Christian God, your reasoning is reduced to foolishness. It’s called transcendental argumentation. Simply put; in a world where all you’ve got is matter in motion, you can not account for non-material entities, like the laws of logic, on which reason is built, therefore, you can not reason within that worldview without borrowing first from the Christian worldview. If a god of some sort does exist, He would have to make Himself known to us in order for us to know anything about Him. That’s why it’s got to be the Christian God. He has revealed Himself through the old and new testaments of the Bible. He sets out reasons as to how we can do science, have an unchanging moral code and reason by utilising His invariant laws of logic.

“The references I made to the stories of the bible were not references to the morality or otherwise of the actions of christians but of their god, his judgement. Lot and his daughters moral. Wife checking for explosions catching up with her, immoral, punishment:death. This is clearly inconsistent with what we understand as morality.”

I really don’t see any inconstancies within the Christian worldview concerning God’s standards; God’s standards remain unchanged throughout the Bible. Jesus has thankfully satisfied His punishment for the breaking of God’s law, but no change in standards has occurred.

“Finally, your claim about only christianity offering a worldview that was consistent would require you o have studied EVERY other worldview with an open mind. (Can the other Abrahamic religions not also make the same claim? And if they can, your ‘only’ is clearly false advertising based on research that is probably impossible to complete.) Your mind is closed to the possibility that we are all here by accident and that life can have no more meaning than that which we give it, that it not to say that it is meaningless but that its value is entirely in the eye of the beholder.”

It certainly does not come with that requirement. New -worldviews are developed all the time and if we were to apply your standard for knowing whether our worldview is consistent or not you wold never get anywhere. The test of consistency is actually a test where one performs an internal critique of a particular worldview. If that particular worldview is able to account for the very laws necessary for reason itself (in order for us to know anything) then that worldview is deemed rational. I know of no other position that passes this test. Again we would be here discussing this for some time if we were to look at each and every view so for now it’s probably best that we defend our own views.

Bob :-)

True. Things are so because we decree them to be. You are logical because you say it. Your god created the universe as your magic books describe it. Animals can not form bonds between their members and therefore societies can not form. You can make bold claims that ‘only new christainity with added stain busters can remove these stains’ (invisible stains it claims to have put there) -such s commercial would be cut straight away but what are laws? They can not form, they must be written from on high! We are merely chemical reactions and why would one chemical reaction care about another? We can dismiss what it observable and provable and within your universe we will take this to be logical because circular logic is the currency there. I have decided that I am a fish and therefore I am. It is logical. I can no longer type due to the absence of fingers. Bye Bob, bob, bob bob bob…

Point proven Paul, you’re worldview is irrational.
Nice talking with you.

Andy…That is how you do it, you get them when they are babies. The same way that you abuse them by indoctrinating them with baptism when they are lying helpless in your arms. You pour some water over their head and utter some mumbo jumbo and hey Presto! a new catholic is forced into the happy band of merry folk singing praises to a bearded guy hiding behind the clouds. Wonderful stuff if you are just after taking some mind altering substance.

Absolutely agree with the separation of religion and state but we must take responsibility at the very beginning.
There is little point in asking for separation if you are willingly taking your child down to the
“font of all knowledge” to be baptized into a religion and then not want to further the experience at school.
Don’t you think?

Haha, the “font of all knowledge”, seeking knowledge was what got Adam and Eve cast out of Eden..
Gotta love those contradictions eh?

Hi Shanti Om …I trust you got the sarcasm in my comment, glad it made you laugh. I’m still on the floor laughing. That is why it is between quotation marks…they think it is the font of all knowledge but fools are easily led.

Of course Fecker, I just have a tendency to state the obvious ;)

Shanti ..I think you will find that Adam was looking for somewhere to put his magic wand….

When I went in, they guys at that gave me the voting slip had a Good News New Testament bible on the table like they were browsing through it. I suppose there’s nothing wrong with that in itself, I just found it strange and amusing.

Haha. It was either that or getting stoned for adultery..

There will be no stoning here, even if I do say Jehovah.

Aren’t Catholics, Christian?

I heard a saying somewhere which I’ll have to paraphrase cus I’m not sure I can remember it correctly;
Faith is belief in a god – religions are just beliefs about god.

Hi Bob, although I do not agree with your comments, I can assure you, that is not my red thumbs down. Also, I find this medium too cumbersome and restricted to adequately express and fine tune my thoughts which can and are easily misconstrued.

Hi Bob, one other very important thing; None of us are born with any kind of sin. That is almost the most ridiculous statement to come from religion. Only religion could try and make you feel inadequate before you even take your first breath.

i think the fact you are proud is according them a little too much credit

Ditto here, got out while I could then the church changed the goal posts, if you’ve no conviction in your religion why use the church for special occasions ?

As I heard said. I believe in God & Santa but I believe Santa more as he brings me gifts! From the mouths of babes . . . .

Yes James I am the pope in my religion, I just can’t settle on what kind of salary to pay myself seeing that I am the only contributor, it doesn’t give me much scope. but Hey! life sucks.

Just think of a good spoof and write it down on some old teastained paper, you could call it ‘the old teastainedment’ or better still you could scrape it onto a rock.
Be sure to scrape something that vaguely resembles a face with a beard, bury it in your garden for a few months and then dig it up. Leave it somewhere so a child will find it, (always works) You will have bus loads of pilgrims in no time.

Hi Slap’stick If anyone out there is looking for a virgin birth, Yes it did happen but only through the endeavours of the dedicated men and women scientists in the 1980’s when Louise Brown was born.
Regarding the older version well, I think someone was pulling the wool over Joesph’s eyes.
But I can’t be sure as I was not present, Oh yes and neither were any of you who are alive today but you choose to believe anyway.

@Ephen: “The virgin birth” does not refer to anyone being born without their parents having sex.

In Catholicism the term refers to Mary’s birth, as she was born without original sin, apparently.

@ Continent Simian
One very important thing to say and I will say it loud and clear so don’t be offended by the capital letters.
NONE OF US ARE BORN WITH ANY KIND OF SIN
Only religion could try to make you feel inadequate just as you are taking your first breath.
There are things that are OK and things that are not OK e.g.
It is not OK to Kill except in defense of your own life.
It is not OK to inflict pain and suffering on any other animal with whom you share this planet.
It is not OK to expect others to live by your religion.
It is OK that you go about your business without interfering in the affairs of others.

Here! Here! James.

It’s a mystery all right Brian.

It’s not their fault Rachel, they were brainwashed.

@ Vigis – So what do you believe then?

The question isn’t “Is it real?”. The question is “Do I benefit from believing in it?”. For many people the answer is “Yes”.

More power to them.

I think having a powerful oppressive business like the Catholic Church controlling the country for so long can lead to many opinions

Ironic given your profile pic.

Waffler, that’s unfair, he’s our nearest relative. :)

PS That reminds me; why is the head honcho of the Church in Ireland called “The Primate of all Ireland”?

@william Ha love it!

They say religion and politics always cause arguments. Soooo true

@William – if you consult your dictionary you’ll find that primate is an ecclesiastical term for the highest ranking bishop in a province. Interestingly the Archbishop of Dublin is primate of Ireland and the Archbishop of Armagh is primate of all Ireland.

well Lt you know what they say, monkey see monkey do

R’amen!

Try a priest, some of them are virgins.

really? i find that hard to believe

This was an invention of the church in order to control the masses and a very good job they did in those days of ignorance. But if it was only being thought of today, they would not get away with such foolish nonsense.
We are a random collective of life forms on this rolling ball of muck which is hurtling through space and your/our existence is meaningless in the greater scheme. The only meaning your life has, is the one you give it.

And yes I am aware that religion and race are two different things but racism is such a blanket term used by liberals today that it covers more than a person’s race

Your Catholic parents gave you a choice, they don’t normally.

You’re an idiot for putting Buddhists in the same basket as Muslims, Christians, etc. The only reason no one would want to say something bad to a Buddhists face is if they don’t want to look like a total jerk.

Kevin, tell that to the Muslims the Buddhists have been killing in Burma.

@William – For some odd reason every country where Muslims are a large minority or there is another large religious group regardless of religion alongside with Islam; there seems to be always problems. May’be the problem is the 1.5 billion Muslims and not the 4.5 billion infidels. “Hundreds of Muslim Rohingya people have been killed and tens of thousands displaced in recent weeks in renewed clashes with the Arakan Buddhists. But where there is conflict there are always two sides to the story.
Ko Aye, 14, a Buddhist from Yaithein village, last saw his 15-year-old friend lying on the ground, bleeding from a sword wound just below his neck. A mob had descended on his village, razing the homes of the largely Buddhist community. “Hundreds of Muslims arrived carrying bows, swords and fire torches,” he recalled of that morning, before he and his family fled. “I was on the street, and everyone ran as they began burning houses.”
The violence between the Rohingya Muslims and the Arakan Buddhists has raised fresh questions about Burma’s reform process at a time when the country is flirting with opening up to the outside world.”

Hi Sean I wonder if I may ask about this freedom you say was given by your parents did they take you as a baby to the local magician to have you indoctrinated into the fold. The same magician who claims but never shows proof, to change wine and bread into the blood and the flesh not just any flesh but the flesh of a god who he maintains is also our creator. There are some weird goings on in those big grey buildings and I think that if ordinary folk were to gather to conduct themselves in this manner, they would be raided by the police.

Kevin, that was a very biased “one side of the story”, here’s another on the peaceful Buddhist’s attempt at genocide http://www.weeklyblitz.net/2735/ethnic-cleansing-the-world-should-know-about

If you didn’t go too a building and praise statues, would it make you any less a Catholic?

Heather…This forgiving god does exist, they invented him so they can say he will forgive.
That is why we have Paedophiles in the church.
They will all be forgiven for their little indiscretions, by their god who does what they tell him to.

Thanks to that “societal decline” you’re entitled to a vote.

Ironically some of the worst “moral” decay occured in people who were religious!

I’ve never thought of RTE as left wing anti catholic media???

Rte plays the angelus every dat, bradcasts religous services every week, has a religous corespondent and prduces the “God Slot” regularly. Not religous? I don’t think so.

Zaza…Surely Pride is a sin if you claim to be catholic! Yes/No! or is that stretching it a bit for you.

Zaza, would I be correct in saying you practice the religion of your parents?

a lot of moral decay started.when men and women were helpless children being raped and beaten, abused and turned into the slaves of the church. religion has no place in the governing of any state.

Hi Ben Gunn ….That bloody angel-us…I could be in the middle of pleasuring myself and off it goes, stopping me in my tracks to ponder the benefits if any, of what I am trying to achieve.

@The Green Monkey – You don’t genuinely believe 84% of the country are practicing Catholics, do you? Or that 1.55 million people here are Irish speakers?

That census was made an absolute joke of but they only have themselves to blame due to how they asked a lot of the questions.

Sean why would people lie if they are filling in forms behind closed doors, or maybe they do…..

Don’t forget this is a survey of web users. Those of us who embrace technology are far less likely to be religious.

@The Green Monkey – Don’t ask me, I filled in my own forms and honestly at that. However, there’s lots of proof that Irish Mammies throughout the country were filling in the form with a fantasy view of her family. The kids and husbands asking to be put down as “No Religion” being put down as “Catholics”, the people saying they don’t speak Irish being put down as Irish speakers and more.

There was uproar on Twitter and elsewhere during the census over it, especially in cases where Mammies were letting the kids fill in the form for themselves and then changing the values entered to suit their fantasy view of the child.

sean youre right, 84% of the people are not mass going catholics. that kinda means its not as hard walk away as your previous post suggests.

my father filled in the form in his house, there were 6 of us visiting at the time, he put us all down as katlicks but none of us consider ourselves to be

Green Monkey – that’s outstanding logic there. I’d expect nothing less from a religious fundamentalist. I’m rolling on 30 next month, and got over my indoctrinated superstition which is Christianity a long time ago.

It’s funny that you mention the census – when a survey taken only weeks later showed that only 40% or so of the public actually considered themselves ‘religious’. People tick the Catholic box out of habit, not because they are a practising Catholic.

on the contrary green monkey,
the poll figures here are more likely to be a reflection of the younger generation of adults in this country. I’d imagine the number of 20-40 year olds on here far out-numbers the other age groups put together. The poll figures here are obviously not going to reflect any national census but a more specific demographic – young adults.

Another factor would be education with non religious people more likely to have further education beyond our (catholic influenced) schools.

Hi Green Monkey The Green part of your chosen name is very appropriate as you must be the greenest.
You are so far removed from reality. Then, so are those who believe in the guy in the sky.

I believe in the power of a couple of good Duracel AA batteries and reckon when people talk about that “empty space” inside them, it’s a part of their brain they just forgot to use. Loving one another is fine, I’m all for it in fact, but when people start to claim they have the “power of healing” it starts to get a bit dangerous for me. That’s when things go downhill.
Now I’ve heard the argument “sure what harm does it do”, and “don’t take hope away from them”. But it does harm everyday. We have seen supposed psychics dispense medical advise elsewhere and got their wrists slapped for it, rightly so, desperate people will cling to anything, and spend money in the hope of hearing what they want to hear. But if this bogus advice comes from someone wearing a collar, or in a church, is it any less false? I’ve known people who were told they were cured of epilepsy and diabetes, praise God, now no need to keep taking their medication. Needless to say when they ended up in hospital they “had sinned again”. And this was a priest.
There is no “power of healing”, if you’re sick, see a doctor, after all if a wheel fell off your car you wouldn’t seriously expect to say a few prayers over it and magically see it repair itself, you’d call a mechanic. So why do we treat our bodies, a far more complex machine, differently?

Antoinette, which is more likely; people can magically heal other people a la Harry Potter or you are bonkers?

He doesn’t feckin love me. If he loves me why does he hide? Why does he permit such suffering in the world? Don’t tell me he works in mysterious ways cos that’s just an excuse for he doesn’t exist.

That you have a belief is admirable, and that you have knowledge of what you believe in is admirable. That you judge others, and expect others to be judged by your set of beliefs is quite disgusting.

The “giving us freedom and peace” part in your post is a tad selective. Why, for instance, shouldn’t Jack and James and Jill and Jenny be allowed the freedom to live in peace as married couples? You really think that Jesus would get his knickers in a twist if they got married? I don’t. I reckon his concern would about whether they treated other people decently. Lots of parts of lots of religions are great but many other parts are simply formalized prejudices that are based more on distaste than common sense.

Freedom and peace?
Adam and Eve were not free, they were naked (read ignorant), they were forbidden from acquiring knowledge, and were cast out for eating from that tree.
God wiped out the planet except for Noah and his floating zoo. He sent plagues, carried out widespread infanticide, advocated selling people into slavery.. Am I leaving anything out?

Man and science are not perfect, far from it. But then again, neither is religion.

Sorry Aodh, but religion is nothing but superstition. That’s a fact and you can’t prove otherwise.

Aodh….Those thoughts are Idiotic. As for your cannibalistic turning bread and wine into flesh and blood.
Paul Daniels and David Copperfield, eat your heart out.
The church is full of magicians. Maynooth must be a blast on Easter Sunday.

Ephen, with regards the blood and wine comment, you might like this:
http://youtu.be/suBqqpez_-I

Good on you Shanti! there is some other good stuff on that link. Thank You.

cath·o·lic (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).
3. Catholic
a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.
n. Catholic
A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.

That is one of its meanings yes, but not *the* meaning.

I was born into a hospital made possible by science, considering someone catholic because of a decision made for them when they were born makes a mockery of the people who practise all their prayers and whatnot. I won’t be letting the church get their grubby mits near my children regardless of what other people think is the right thing to do