My exact reaction.

I think before we all vote “yes” or “no” we should ask Leo Varadkars €135k adviser what he thinks. He’ll know whats best.

OK, it’s swung to no now :-D for a good while there it looked like a yes from journal readers, I found that a bit surprising.

My heart is so full of hope, splendid!

I hate it, but you’re right, it’ll probably be an all or nothing proposal, even though it’s only really the Euro that’s the problem.

Eugene. I liked the idea of the EU too as a cooperative Europe. Also it opened our export markets and reduced our dependency on UK. But it’s no longer a cooperative Europe and I don’t want to be a part of what it’s become.

Ireland is a small country with a great reputation for quality. It wouldn’t be back to the Dev days of self sufficiency. But we have to be in charge of our own affairs. Maybe a good kick in the ass would make us grow up a bit?

@Paul
There’s no other way of looking at it, were being scared into this treaty because the government doesn’t want egg on its face.
Germany and France are nothing like bully’s in a playground teaming up telling other country’s this and that,
And if you stand up your a bad European for disagreeing.Sick to dead with this union,Its nothing more then lump of useless people that couldn’t get into their local parliament.
@Reada
Agree 100%
Yeah the founding steps of the EU were great and done the job it was created for.Then over the years more and more idiots jumped on the gravy train jobs in the EU trying to look busy to keep there six figure pay and now it’s nothing more then a monster.
This treaty will only benefit big country’s rather then small one’s like ours.
With Germany Italy France Spain seating around a table do you think they will listen to what we think?
We would be nothing more then a fly flying around the table and just being tolerated.

I can’t help but be amused that people who come in to the Journal day in and day out with scare stories are complaining that we’re being scared into voting yes for a possible new treaty.

I agree with you Eugene 100%

Hey, if it wasn’t for the likes of Germany and France, this country would have died on it’s feet years ago!

How exactly did past referendums “come back and bite us in the ass”? And it could be argued that previous treaties never went far enough, had there been a system in place that punished irresponsible behaviour i.e. excessive debt, would we be in the position we are in today? would greece? spain? etc etc. The EU will probably never truly work without some sort of fiscal consolidation, and if we want to remain part of europe, it may be a necessary sacrifice.

Like the Celtic Tiger isn’t biting your ass now Sean? It was created by Germany’s need for low interest rates…

Not really sure what your point is, could the banks of all member states not borrow from the ECB at low interest rates? If so, why are we, with a handful of other countries, the only ones in such a mess?

i honestly don’t think this mess was created for the benefit of Germany.
It was created in order to create a Federal Europe. Sure Germany has benefited, but
i believe that it’s a by-product.

If anyone honestly believes that the economists and politicians that planned the Euro zone
didn’t know that sooner or later this ‘mess’ wouldn’t come to pass, is being naive.

I believe this ‘mess’ was forethought and is being used to try secure a Federal Europe.

Don’t think there’s much doubt that the road we are heading down is that of an eventual Federal Europe, or something similar at least (don’t really understand why this is necessarily a bad thing, it could be mutually beneficial for all member states) but to say that this recession was deliberately created by EU leaders to further an agenda is a bit slanderous, there’s nothing at all to back that up.

There have been booms and busts since the dawn of trade, is it not more likely that this one has just pushed the need for further integration to the fore quicker than it otherwise might have been, rather than created to achieve it?

Now joe your scratching the paint off the rust. on the button baby!

sean, slanderous? they can sue me for all i’m worth…. hahahahahaha

thanks john,
ive spent the last 2 years observing this as close as is possible.
i’ve devoured main stream media, alternative media, read books on it,
to tell the truth its been something of a personal nightmare.

the only dispassionate conclusion i can possible come to
is the one i stated in my above post.
Tho it is good to know that there are others, like yourself, around who have drawn the same conclusion.

This mess is not about national borders it’s about the interdependence of a banking system which is in turn dependent on a global market network that is teetering on collapse. What regard has bond market strategists got for the Germans, Dutch, French or Irish – bugger all. They want to see returns on the investments made into sovereign and banking institutions realized; and they have the help of democratically(?) elected centrist left and centrist right political parties to do it. If a politicians bread and butter income comes automatically from the taxation of the state while their party is funded by ‘payola’ money from corporate business interests who do you think gets looked after? The taxpayer who has no choice but pay up, or the corporate financial backer who demands a bang for his buck? And of course if you happen to have a minister of finance who himself has a bit of skin in the game it’s austerity all the way baby!

My point was, that its unfair, and potentially even dangerous, to accuse anyone of something like that without backing it up. Anyone can make any claim grounded in nothing other than opinion, it does not make it true.

And joe. The interdependent banking system of my above post culminates where? Ah yes! Our old pals in the ECB/EU alliance that the IMF are already starting to look askance at. You just need to stick your head out the window – you can smell it in the air!

to borrow mcwilliams phrase
its a banktatership

but why aren’t people seeing this clearly?
the money trail has been shrouded in mystery.
when one uncovers how money is created, and the flow of money is controlled,
nothing will ever or can ever be the same again.

Most are confused by gobbledygook Joe. Look at the language used. The convoluted terminology designed to thicken the trees in the wood ’till it all becomes a big green hazy blur. It should be really quiet simple and McWilliams uses a clear concise approach. While not always in agreement Dan Brien in the IT gives some insight into the inner workings of his old workplace, if you read between the lines. But there’s acres of bullcrap out there.

Ah Mr McGee. Admire the passion. But now you’re entering the realms of conspiracy theory. Credibility – woooosh…

Thankfully I can cop out on this one. Referenda only open to the citizens who got us in to this mess. Hehe…

no worries michael, over the last 2 years i’ve had that and worse levelled at me.
if you haven’t taken any time to understand FIAT currency and who controls it
what i’m suggesting will come across as the stuff of conspiracy.
and it’s a great reason not to look at it, no?

re. credibility, i’m not on here looking for credibility….thankfully!

curiosity has got the better of me Mick,
if u were to vote what way would you go?
if its not a personal question……… ;-)

and if its yes, i won’t be tryin to bust ur hump over it!

Michael. Conspiracy theory has had a name change. Truth. Gas isn’t it. ;)

There’s no big conspiracy in all of this Michael. Well not on a grand scale – that’s giving too much credit for intelligence in all of this. Lots of little conspiracies alright – whispering in corners, that kinda stuff, but no grand plan. It’s just unregulated market forces that have been let get out of hand and have bought advantage through a political buy out . A schoolboy would manage his pocket money better than this lot! And they want us to dig ourselves deeper into it by voting for tighter controls! Control by whom? Market dominated policy from Europe? That’s what got us into this mess. No thanks. More unregulated market dominated policy at home? That’s what got us into this mess. No thanks.
Greed and whispering in corners for sure. Grand conspiracy? They wouldn’t have the wit!

@Neil Before you make sweeping statements like that, I suggest you provide some substance. There is no proof whatsoever that Germany and France have ensured the survival of this nation. What they have done is further indebted it.

@Sean How about some quotes from famous people on issue of the banking system. Read these and tell me that others haven’t long ago come to the conclusion that the purpose of the privately-run monetary system is to suck wealth from the wealth producers into the hands of those who have never worked a day in their lives.

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance. -James Madison

The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. -Abraham Lincoln

“Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

“Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal – that there is no human relation between master and slave.” Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

“The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent.” John Kenneth Galbraith, former professor of economics at Harvard.

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. – Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)

Ok Joseph. Suppose 1st I should say, I never assumed you’re on here seeking credibility. But your passionate arguments lose credibility when you say the likes of “If anyone honestly believes that the economists and politicians that planned the Euro zone didn’t know that sooner or later this ‘mess’ wouldn’t come to pass, is being naive. I believe this ‘mess’ was forethought and is being used to try secure a Federal Europe.”

For what it’s worth, I don’t believe politicians anywhere have any other ability than what it takes to get elected. (So their primary focus is on their constituents). So they could hardly have the for-thought or competence to conspire to set up a currency in the knowledge that its failure would secure a federal Europe. Ditto the financial sector who’s primary concern is maximising for share-holders in the short term (bonuses & dividends guaranteed).

Surely the best argument against big government, at national or Europe-wide level is that it is so complex that even with competent people running the show, it is just too much to keep together. WE live in a world where we have become consumed by the expectation that we, as workers, professionals, etc are competent in what we do. We get snowed under by paperwork required to demonstrate accountability. No surprise then, that we should apply these expectations to those who run the country & EU.

Politics is showbiz for ugly people. A big ego trip. We need participatory democracy. Having the odd referendum thrown our way is hardly fits that bill and usually they get hijacked by anti-abortionists and other fringe groups. Wold that happen if there was a plebiscite on all major policy decisions. Less likely anyway.

If I had a vote in referenda? I don’t know yet because I don’t know what is the question to be put. I’d prefer a preferendum, with maybe 5 options…

Thanks for getting back.

this is a quote from jean monnet, one of the ‘founders’ of the EU from 1943
“There will be no peace in Europe if the States rebuild themselves on the basis of national sovereignty, with its implications of prestige politics and economic protection (…). The countries of Europe are not strong enough individually to be able to guarantee prosperity and social development for their peoples. The States of Europe must therefore form a federation or a European entity that would make them into a common economic unit.”

there are plenty of quotes similiar, i wont post them, i don’t want to bore you.

Im sure you will agree that its becoming clearer that financial forces are directly or indirectly
dictating policy to governments, no?

What or who is the Tri-Lateral commission?
Or the Council on Foreign relations?
Or the Bilderberg Group?
These are all real organisations, what do u think they are about?
And why do we never hear of them?

i’m not saying that all politicians are involved, that would be just stupid.

say for example in each country there are/were key people in key positions….
e.g. Peter Sutherland, former AG,
look at his resume.

here’s an article about another AT
Please read it, especially from
“A key disturbing fact ………”
http://foolscrow.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/irish-leaders-castigated-as-greatest-traitors-of-all-time/

As an overview,
All it takes is to flood cheap money into a country like Ireland, in this case by the ECB,
sit back and wait for bubbles to develop. and when it crashes, as it will, as another poster pointed booms and busts are the stuff of a long history. as everyone plays the blame game, as thats needed to do is step in an ‘offer’ the solution.
honestly, with the economists that thought up the Euro zone, the experts, with a long history to examine booms and busts, that they did not know what might develop?

Sorry but i stand over my statement that its naive to believe that they didn’t know this was a serious potential.

Howya joe.
Thought you might be interested in this. Jon Ronson of ‘Men who stare at Goats’ fame went on a mission to discover the Bilderberg Group and tracked them down to a hotel in Portugal. Turns out they were nothing more than a bunch of old farts who liked, among other things, to run around in the nip!
I attach a link to an extract (if of course you have not already read it) for your gentle perusal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2001/mar/10/features.weekend

Doubt you’ll get that referendum so.

At least not until SF bring the government through the courts and we see the idiotic excuse “referendums are undemocratic” from Leo V. Gonna be quite the humiliating government-ending saga for FG/LAB in my opinion.

@Begrudgy
Don’t forget German workers are fed up filling up the begging bowls of economically irresponsible European states like Ireland.
While Ireland partied Germany saved up.

Swings and roundabouts Michael. Germany have had some write offs in their time too.

Now Michael don’t be trying to stop people from blaming Germany for things we did to ourselves. Why learn anything when you can blame someone else.

gary, do u see what you are doing?
You are blaming those who u think are blaming others.
a bit hypocritical, no?

if thats all you have, then u too have nothing to offer.

i think u’ll find if u engage people rather than blame people, u’ll open ur own mind a bit too.

For myself, I will, if given the chance, be telling the EU to go blow themselves.
European partners and colleagues me hole.

I find that learning something from past mistakes is a very effective way of not repeating them. We voted in FF three times in a row, they were always inept and corrupt but we didn’t seem to care too much at the time. As long as they were making us all ‘rich’. During this time the Germans lived within their means while we thought it made sense to have low taxes and high spending. FG got a kicking at the 2002 election as they proposed spending restraint so we got exactly what we asked for, we just didn’t look too deeply at what we are asking for.
I’ve asked repeatedly for someone to prove we got our money from German banks and no one has, not ever. Even the economists who originally said we did. We borrowed our money on the international money markets so time to stop blaming the Germans. Time to learn from *our* mistakes.

ur first paragraph…more blame…
i do agree tho, why were FF voted in 3 times. I’d guess and say most, meself included, had F all
understanding of economics, politics etc etc. That much I think has changed. Most people are much more aware now than then. Of course, more to learn no doubts.

german banks? r not most of the bondholders german and french banking houses?
Where do u think the ECB gets its money? The very same banks.

Do u not see the scam??
The bondholders are forced us to take as sovereign debt their debt, and in return the will lend us the 18billion shortfall for running the country, using the ECB as its vehicle. The ECB is nothing short of being a “front” for these banking houses. Who wins? I think u know, and its not me or you.
We’re selling our fucking kids futures to these ‘people’.
They think they have us by the short and curlies…
I say ONLY IF WE LET THEM!!

And you think they are our friends????????????????????????

Learning from our mistakes so not to repeat them is blame now??!?
We went begging bowl in hand to the ECB for money. They would be mental to give us that money without strings. Would you give someone money who had been shown they cannot be trusted with it?

well done for not reading my post.
all u saw was blame again.

Byeeee

@Gary
Yes Gary every single Irish person got rich and are in debt and every single German saved 50 grand in their bank account,generalizing by any chance.
I didn’t get rich I never vote FF and I don’t own debt and I know ton’s of people in the same boat and that are being screwed left right center now because of the bailout of the banks.
Around 1000 developers/”business men” own 50billion in debt to toxic banks that were bailed out and if the government had a few brain cells and didn’t give a blanket guarantee then we won’t be here.
Stop generalizing and learn the facts.

Gary. Most people that see the whole picture do not blame the Germans for this mess.
“We borrowed our money on the international money markets so time to stop blaming the Germans.” Damn right. This is international alright. Germany were on the payroll though, as were many of our leaders.

Eugene we borrowed 110 billion to fund our day to day overspending, nothing to do with the banks so perhaps we should look at the elephant in the room and do less shouting about the banks. I didn’t agree with a blanket guarantee of the banks and I didn’t vote FF. Have you got a time machine so we can go back in time and can all vote for better politicians? Because if there is no time machine I’d suggest it’s time to move forward.

Did you look at the news over the past few years Gary.
Nothing to got to do with the banks are you pulling my leg.Here’s a history lesson
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/business/2011/11/17/can-ireland-beat-chile-on-bank-bailout-costs/,
Most of the bailout went to banks and bondholders.
“Have you got a time machine so we can go back in time and can all vote for better politicians? Because if there is no time machine I’d suggest it’s time to move forward.”
Well I had to bring up the bailout because you keep thinking every Irish person in Ireland is at fault for the cap in hand for money with the EU/IMF when if you knew your facts it was that corrupt previous government that blanket guarantee every cent of debt the banks made from dodgy dealings going under every body’s nose during the boom years.So stop talking rubbish.

We borrowed 110 billion for our overspending, separate to the banks. That is correct and nothing in your article disputes that. Why are people not shouting day in and day out about that? Much easier to blame evil bankers.
We voted for very poor politicians and even when many were caught being corrupt we re-elected them top of the poll. We cannot divorce ourselves from those many years of poor choices when faced with the consequences now. Doesn’t stop many people trying though.

“We borrowed 110 billion for our overspending, separate to the banks. That is correct and nothing in your article disputes that. Why are people not shouting day in and day out about that? Much easier to blame evil bankers.”

We borrowed 110 billion for our overspending because of bailing out the banks of around 50 billion and then our bonds skyrocketed forcing us to get a bailout(Loan with interest).
I never called them evil but they are banksters.You are obviously passionate about your views and think the banks are a innocent institution,So I am just wasting my time putting a point across to then.

eugene,
sadly when it comes to gary, u are wasting your time.
he asks the questions and then doesn’t even bother to read what you wrote.
just look at how many times he’s posted roughly the same question. others have answered his posts,
then he shoots down to the middle of the thread and asks the same question.
He’s too much effort.
why not leave him believe what he wants to believe. :-)

@Joseph
Yeah your right
that was a lesson learned hard talking with Gary.
I think all the links on the internet wouldn’t answer his question :)

I’m trying to state simple facts, nothing more. We borrowed 110 billion for our day to day spending deficit and I believe another 70 billion for the banks. The banks will be worth something so it won’t be a total loss on that score. The 110 billion on the other hand is just gone. The banks were a mess but they are not our biggest problem at all. I’m just trying to get this across.
It’s interesting that people are demanding we go after the bankers but does that also mean we should go after the people who spent most of the money we borrowed. The doctors, the nurses, the guards, the teachers, mothers, social welfare recipients etc?

Oh and if you want to point to a link on the internet that is properly referenced and actually on the topic I’m all eyes.

Ignore him lads. It’s poor Begrudgery I feel sorry for. His email inbox will crash trying to explain the facts to poor Gary. ;)

@Gary give that a good read because you need it.This is the last reply
http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2011/02/liabilities-with-ecb-and-irish-central.html

@ Joseph McGee

“The bondholders are forced us to take as sovereign debt their debt, and in return the will lend us the 18billion shortfall for running the country, using the ECB as its vehicle. The ECB is nothing short of being a “front” for these banking houses. Who wins? I think u know, and its not me or you.”

The bondholders lent us and our banks money. The Irish Government was elected by the Irish people. The Irish Central Bank regulates Irish banking practices and rule. Others lent those Irish banks money and were allowed to by Irish regulators. Those same Irish banks lent, largely to Irish people, extreme amounts of money to inflate Irish property which the Irish Government made enormous amounts of tax from. But surely it was the foreign banks that did the lending who should take the blame.

The fact that most people were not aware of the intricacies of the banking system and economic principles does not entitle us to turn around and say “We didn’t know, you lent it to us”. It’s sad.

enda,
not being smart with u, but i’m not clear what ur saying.

@Enda
Unsecured BANK bondholders that placed bets and lost with a private institution’s and we have to pay them off I think your getting mixed up with private debt from sovereign debt?
“The fact that most people were not aware of the intricacies of the banking system and economic principles does not entitle us to turn around and say “We didn’t know, you lent it to us”. It’s sad.”
The fact is we the Irish people had no control over the banks lending 50 billion euro to a 1000 developers
and no control over private institutions and shouldn’t be paying private debts that went into the 50 billions.
Again generalizing ,Irish this Irish that many Irish didn’t get rich over the boom years many worked on normal wage and paid their tax’s and are now footed with a bill of nearly 53 billion that take 30 or more years to pay off.

“But surely it was the foreign banks that did the lending who should take the blame.”
Yes its also up to the banks that lend too because their responsible for their own actions too.
Banks have been around longer then most country’s in the world so their no fools.
If their was no banking crisis or any money given to private banks there would be no bailout and not much sovereign debt belonging to the Irish people.

@Michael Fagan Economically irresponsible? German banks have already had their gambling debts bailed out through the United States’ Trouble Assets Relief Program, of which Deutsche Bank received a sizeable chunk. I would say that its neither the German’s fault nor the fault of the Irish that international finance is a fraudulent shell game, but I don’t see why this small nation should bear the brunt.

Danyl. Enda Kenny thinks we’re pure thick and we just don’t understand how important it is to bend to Markets. Why should they ask us when we’re pure stupid? Wall Street need our money you know…

I fear we are headed this way , ‘Ein Europa, eine führende ‘, sounds vaguely familiar , over 70 years have passed,
the methods have changed but I fear the ideology remains the same

That had so many buzz words and so little knowledge.

If that’s so, Niall, then perhaps I should become a politician.

Biggins no matter how many time people have this out with you on boards.ie you still pushing the same nonsense line.

Rubbish!

1. Please tell us when we have NOT been made vote before?

2. Current reports mention that they are trying to get around the referendum option with carefully wording this latest version.

So come back with your own better nonsense or stop talking crap!

1. We have on many occasions now repeated referenda, for a number of different things. The great thing is we can go vote yes or no repeatedly to our hearts content, no one can force us to do anything. And as they are democratic votes they are always the will of the people at that time. More democratic votes = more democracy, well according to the people demanding a referendum on these new EU changes. Or is that only when it suits them?
2. We have a representative democracy, I don’t need to explain that do I? So we vote for people every few years to make many decisions on our behalf. We only elected this current government a year ago to do just that. You have seen how we run referenda right? It’s usually a fiasco of lies on more lies, with nut-jobs both home-grown and foreign crawling out of the woodwork. You think any government in their mind would want that if it’s not legally necessary?

1. Any referenda that has been repeated, the ones WE have chosen alone to be repeated, have made a direct and immediate effect on the Irish people. Not French or German ones who are more concerned about their own profits and see they get paid for their bond gambling if they officially won or lost!
Previous home grown referenda by the way that did not come with such European scare tactics and bullying!
There is a difference!

2. I personally think that the present government is so full of liars and stupidity that they are just now accepting what ever they are told from Europe and then try to see thats its done quietly as possible so that a public vote can be by-passed. So that the “NO” they know would otherwise be forthcoming, won’t even be given a chance now to be said!

1. Our democratically elected government chose to repeat the Lisbon vote. And judging by the large yes vote they were correct in their call. They only did this after asking people why they voted no the first time. The majority of these things were not in the treaty or we got guarantees on. That all seems very democratic to me. Course as usual it’s much more interesting to shout that the Germans and French made us do it, even when clearly that’s not so.
2. You can think the current government is full of bunny jugglers but they have a clear mandate from the people. Every representative democracy works within it’s laws, it’s rare that a government will hold referenda when they don’t need to, they can be very divisive things. Also the recent RedC poll would suggest there would be a yes vote not a no. I’ll tell you this much if any new EU treaty means we cannot repeat what we’ve just done I’ll be strongly considering voting yes.

Correction Gary, we elect them to represent us. They are public representatives and civil servants, they are not elected to make decisions “for” us.

absolutely correct shanti.
will gary ‘get’ it? i doubt it. but more power to ya for tryin!!

Representative Democracy
“The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people’s interest, but not as their proxy representatives nor necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances”.

I think I get it fine.

this is the Legal definition

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. A form of government where the powers of the sovereignty are delegated to a body of men, elected from time to time, who exercise them for the benefit of the whole nation

i think key phrase is ” benefit of the whole nation”
Surely we, collectively, are entitled to a say on whether we think this will be of benefit or not
as it will be us who will live with the consequences.

why do u not want to see a referendum? try to keep ur answer relevant to the question, thanks

You seem to be mistaking Direct Democracy for Representative Democracy. You guys are demanding more democracy because it suits you to have a referendum whether we legally need one or not. But you don’t think having more democracy is okay when we legally vote again on the likes of Lisbon, because it doesn’t suit you. It’s all very selective isn’t it.

Well I think it’s interesting to see how many people would have their minds made up before the text is available. If someone was unsure or wanted to wait then there’s the “I don’t know” option, but I wonder how many who voted yes/no would be open to changing their mind…?

Since this whole thing is an effort to patch up a failing currency that was badly implemented in the first place, I find it hard to believe these people know what they’re doing.
The went against the advice of the guys who came up with the Euro plan when the implemented it, now they’re trying to backtrack and we’re collateral damage.
I don’t think this path is in the best interests of Ireland or the EU, as a result I don’t need to see the text – the EU is heading down the wrong road, perhaps being pushed down it by big business but the wrong road none the less – I’ll be voting no.

Niall. Likewise our government seem hellbent on approval before the final text. Speaks volumes.

Oh believe me Réada I’ve been following it closely, hence why I voted no in the poll. As you say below, the notion of the EU is a fine one but it’s just such a shame that I can’t read a story about the mess they’re making of everything without feeling very anti-Europe. As far as I’m concerned it’s a “no” until convinced otherwise, and I just don’t think the usual “Europe needs Ireland, we’re central to Europe, they really value our contribution” rubbish is going to cut it any more.

Ok then Niall ;)

stop shouting…

Your rant might be more respected if you didn’t hide behind a fake name and photo. It’s easy to be brave when you’re anonymous.

hello hello spruiker

i agree with ur post. ur probably feeling incredibly angry. i understand that.
i am too. hang in there! tho, maybe ease up on the caps lock,
makes it easier to read without it.
thanks

@Gary
I don’t get it Gary what makes you think the grass is greener on the other side.
I rather a completely new system in our country that stops cronyism and boom and bust cycles rather then some French or German person that never stepped a foot on Irish soil deciding our tax’s and spending budget.What about our neutrality.
I would vote No to a United states of Europe on so many reasons.

Very true.

funny that, I’m exact opposite :-D I want to be in the EU, just not this EU, not corporate EU.

(Pardon spelling)

Thanks Enda
I’m sure we will all get a chance to vote for all that stuff your on about in Lisbon 3 (or 4).

And you can vote no every time, just like in any functioning democracy.

SeanS you’re absolutely right. I never really understood the screaming about the second Lisbon treaty and the whining since. People could have just gone out and voted no again. Instead people listened to the debate and voted yes in large numbers as their concerns had been democratically dealt with. The final outcome on Lisbon was fair based on the facts of the treaty and not ‘the EU is going to eat our babies’ bull.

Yeah John. But if we got out of the Euro and duck, maybe they won’t notice us. :-)

So our minster are elected are they?

I wish people wouldn’t directly compare us to Iceland. We lost more jobs in just the construction industry than their are people in Iceland.

I’m not directly comparing us to Iceland. I’m just using them as an example of a country that has defaulted and it hasn’t been the end of the world. However, I don’t get your point; is scale your only problem with a direct comparison? Relative to Iceland we’re a big country but in general we’re quite small. Other than that, the fact we’re in bad shape with high unemployment etc. is pretty much expected if you’re in a situation where default is possible.

Very sensible indeed.

Hi Robin.
The answer to your comment is obvoiusly simple.
If you borrow money you have an irreversible committment. Pay it back or else. Can’t put it in simpler terms.
Without EU bailout ireland would be fucked to put it mildly.

well I’ll be voting no because I do not want European “integration” which, it seems to me, to be less about integrating as Europeans and more about serving the Franco-German political and economic systems at the expense of our own freedom of speech, conscience and ethical and moral values. The EU in my mind should be an organisation where all members are equals and all respect each other. It should be an organisation which promotes cooperation and cultural diversity. Instead it has lost these values and its sole purpose these days, it seems, is to drain the wealth of the European periphery and shift it towards the already wealthy Paris-Berlin axis. France and Germany are now telling us what to do, literally under pain of death.

Enda
The citizens of Ireland never agreed for this mountain of private bank debt in the first place.
The forced 50billion debt that I am paying of for the 1000 or so developers.
I wish that corrupt government never existed they ruined this country with the blanket bailout.
This is the way I will say it fuck the government and the EU the only thing that comes out of their mouth the past 4 years is save the euro and screw the middle class.
The EU is nothing but a circus of over paid unelected parasites,Why would I want them ruining my country?
I will vote NO and wait until this government I voted in to collapse.

I don’t want any fiscal or political integration and i’m sure there is millions of others throughout the European continent who don’t want it either, millions who i might add are denied any vote on what direction their country chooses.

When you say you don’t want any more European integration do you mean we should go it alone?

Should we have our own currency?
Should we reject all of the reforms under the bailout programme?
If not which reforms would you reject?
Should we try to maintain a 12.5% tax rate while refusing to pay towards a banking crisis and still expect full access to the free market?

I don’t like paying for private bank debt any more than anyone else and I don’t like how we have to pay gross sums while the whole world benefits from the maintenance of the banking system but short of a violent revolution we will pay for it. What constructive suggestions are there for the FUTURE?

“The citizens of Ireland never agreed for this mountain of private bank debt in the first place.
The forced 50billion debt that I am paying of for the 1000 or so developers.”
Well you see we did de facto agree by voting a bunch of inept corrupt fools three times in a row. We cannot detach ourselves from what we as a nation did. FF told us what they were going to do and they did it, unfortunately for us we should have paid more attention to that they were saying. We also borrowed 110billion to fund the state but much easier to shout about evil banks eh?

“Well you see we did de facto agree by voting a bunch of inept corrupt fools three times in a row.”
I never voted in FF so Generalizing again Gary.
“We also borrowed 110billion to fund the state but much easier to shout about evil banks eh?”
From your regular defence of banks I say your a banker.
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/business/2011/11/17/can-ireland-beat-chile-on-bank-bailout-costs/
Evil or not the banks cost the taxpayer the biggest bailout in history .

Yeah so nobody actually has a better solution?

That’s about it Enda. There are no easy options due to our past choices. Sure just keep screaming about ze Germans and the bankers and vote no to any EU proposal as that will fix it all. Some ill-informed people on the internet say it so it must be so.

What’s your opinion Gary?
Do you want more EU control and how will it help Ireland?:)

Why should we be forced into closer ties with people we have no cultural connection with?
Why should we be browbeaten into an economic union which so far has been a catastrophic failure and has unelected bankers at it’s core?
Every treaty so far has been dressed up as some sort of manifest promising equality between all European nations with a shared voice and look what invariably happens – the larger economies dictate to the rest and no country has been dictated too more than ourselves and this treaty change will just reinforce the financial straightjacket that FG/labour make a big song and dance about getting out of.
Further more – it’s been instigated by Germany and look at the controversy caused when they were privy to our budget before our elected, incompetent but elected all the same TD’s.
Do people want this eternally enshrined here?
I certainly don’t, I’d rather have some semblance of self determination than having the ECB plan out our economy.

If it stops our gombeen politicians wrecking the place again then I’ll be strongly considering voting yes to this EU treaty.

@Gary
I don’t get it Gary what makes you think the grass is greener on the other side.
I rather a completely new system in our country that stops cronyism and boom and bust cycles rather then some French or German person that never stepped a foot on Irish soil deciding our tax’s and spending budget.What about our neutrality.
I would vote No to a United states of Europe on so many reasons..

I never heard many Irish people complaining about the the catastrophic failure of an economic union when the EEC was handing out massive grants to develop Irish infrastructure, or when numerous US and other companies relocated to Ireland providing thousands of jobs. It’s only when something doesn’t go our way that we retrospectively say the WHOLE idea was a bad one.

No treaty ever promised equality between nations. There have been references to equality between persons. Why should a nation of 80 million be given the same say as one of 4.5 million? In terms of representation in the European Parliament we have a disproportionate number of representative.

You seem to take issue with economic power. Do you think we should be able to dictate to them saying “we won’t pay, but if you don’t mind we’d still like to use your currency and have access to your markets so we can sell our goods and services that we only have because we attracted foreign investors with unfair corporate tax rates?”

As for us being more dictated to than other countries, Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain and Hungary are getting a fair rollicking. The US and other non-EU states are making constant demands to solve the debt crisis. Numerous countries have called on Germany to allow the ECB to be a lender of last resort ie dilute the value of your citizen’s savings to pay for the rest of Europe.

As for fiscal straight jacket, fiscal responsibility is hardly oppressive. Any arrangement would likely be limited to Member States being required to keep within deficit boundaries with financial penalties for failure to do so and most likely would provide for flexibility for unusual circumstances. It would not allow the Troika to waltz in and dictate as they are under the bailout programme. What’s more the rules would apply equally to Germany and France.

Finally, I’d love to hear your plans for self-determination. We could try the North Korea thing maybe? Ireland without (i) the English language, (ii) Education (ii) EU membership, (iii) the Euro and (iv) attractive corporate tax rates is NOTHING! Go back to growing our own potatoes and having boxty for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Eugene it’s about framing the question differently. You’ve basically asked me there how can I accept the fact that some fascists are going to invade and tell us what to do at gunpoint. Of course I wouldn’t accept that but since that’s not what is happening I’m not worried about it. I appreciate that we are the EU as much as anyone is. The EU balances the playing field in our favour.
The irony of people claiming we should leave the EU as Germany is bullying us thus making it easier for them to do that is not lost on me. Not that I agree we’re being bullied.

“No treaty ever promised equality between nations”
LOL

Seriously Enda, you really have no faith in the Irish peoples ability to set their own goals and maybe that’s why you’d prefer total capitulation to a German run union.
Your last comment reads like an actual dissection of every EU treaty – vote yes or go back to growing potatoes…chortle.

@ Dermot

Ireland cannot set its own goals…ABSOLUTE FACT! Give me…in practical terms… your suggestions on how Ireland can set its own goals and how the Irish people will be better off? Where will the money come from?

Now answer my questions before chortling! How can Ireland set its own goals? How?!

Enda, I viewed your assertion that the Irish nation are incapable of self sufficiency as a concern…seriously, you are saying that we, as a sovereign independent nation, whose history is littered with tales of national pride, of rebellion, of a desire for the Irish people to have a say in the direction their state means nothing?…… that we as a sovereign nation depends on subservience to foreign governments?

Bow your head and apologise, we’re a better and more resilient country than you EU quislings understand.

@Dermot

We’ll see. Maybe Cúchulainn will arrive to save the day.

I agree 100% It would be nasty! but I think it would be better in the long run.

Maybe people would be more willing to make sacrifices and give up their relatively comfortable lives and go through that hardship if it was for their own benefit in the long run rather then other people’s (like banks, bondholders, politicians etc….) although I’d doubt it. I guess to some people stuff is more important then sovereignty.

Totally, but I think it’s about time we went back to the logic of our ancestors, they fought in horrible times for the betterment of the future of their children etc, we as Irish people will need to make serious sacrifices to reclaim our country from the grip of the Franco German mugs (who have very short memories), but in the knowledge that it will spawn a better future for our children. It’s less than 100 years since our ancestors died for our freedom, are we going to throw the last bit of it away because the USC will go up or because it will be tough for a few years. This country has nothing left to lose, it’s about time we stood up for ourselves and stopped trampling on the graves of our ancestors and what they died for!

Adrian. What do you mean by people on the streets? Do you mean people who have been evicted? Or protesters (laughs to self)?

Thanks for that, Adrian! Nice to see someone talking sense:-)

Should have been rebuilding since 07/08 when all the b######t lies began to surface. Anglo should have been let crumble and Ireland would have been in a position to borrow by now. Instead, Ireland is going down with the rest of Europe. LIKE IT OR NOT

Adrian judging by the crying about the last budget people in this country are not prepared for the shitstorm that would happen if we were set adrift.
It never ceases to fascinate me that our uber nationalists who supposedly love this country more than the rest of us are prepared to take it down the toilet for their hatred of the EU. Only a crazy suggestion but perhaps we should do what’s best for the country and set aside our normal biases.

Gary, I am normally pro Europe, however recently have lost all faith. If you’re going to come out and use the scare rhetoric about we need the eu etc to pay our nurses, teachers and guards I’m afraid I believe the Irish are tired of hearing that particular one. Whatever we think of our corrupt political system, at least they are in the majority answerable to us, the citizens, if you think it’s in the Irish citizens interest to have people running the country that do not have to answer to us, and are not elected by us, then I’m afraid I’d have to question your logic!

How would we pay the bills? We live way beyond our means. I’m personally willing to take whatever pain is necessary but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the poorest in our society would be hammered by a immediate 15 billion a year cut.
Take a read of this and tell me are we so accountable…. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75666046&postcount=25

Don’t be asking logical questions

Fergal,
Sorry for this, but im copying and paste this from a post i made above.
Do u want to take money from these

“”Do u not see the scam??
The bondholders are forced us to take as sovereign debt their debt, and in return the will lend us the 18billion shortfall for running the country, using the ECB as its vehicle. The ECB is nothing short of being a “front” for these banking houses. Who wins? I think u know, and its not me or you.
We’re selling our fucking kids futures to these ‘people’.
They think they have us by the short and curlies…
I say ONLY IF WE LET THEM!! “”

It’s a lost cause Joseph, get out while you can! :-(

Fergal.
Ever think that the blanket bailout of the banks in 2009 might be the reason we were kicked out of the bond market? If the resources of the state had been left to maintain the security of already issued sovereign bonds rather than the bank bonds due to collapse the sovereign bond market would have remained open and the EU/IMF bailout would have been unnecessary. We lost our status in the sovereign bond market to secure private debt.

Paul. Getting out isn’t really an option for all. Anyway I dont want all the feisty ones leaving now leaving me here in an island of slumbering slaves. Anyway this is an international crisis.

Our money is issued as interest-bearing debt, Fergal, so the more of it we have, the more we are in debt. The solution is a value-based currency free of interest and whether it is issued by our state or EU-wide, it would guarantee a rapid economic recovery. The only problem is that those who have tried it before have ended up meeting a premature demise.

I hear ya Réada, and yes, while it is an international crisis, it seems disproportionately Irish.

The Greeks, Portugese and Spanish might disagree with you Paul.

Tom. I’d love if you’d elaborate…

@ Michael Madson

Facts
During the so called Celtic Tiger 10′s of Billions of Euro’s were funneled through the Irish banking system by corrupt bankers on huge ”performance related” commissions and bonuses.

The Bulk of this money was lent to property developers, to buy fields from each other.
(some of these developers (aged in their 50′s and 60′s) bought so much ”non income producing” swamps around Dublin (with pig banker 100-120% loans) that it would take several lifetimes to fully develop them.

A lot of these developers and development (shell) companies (at the time) were non Irish as were the owners of these ”Private Banks”.
Now it seems (due to the recent spate of U.K. Bankruptcies) even more of these developers don’t seem to be ”Irish”

These corrupt banks gave out an odd mortgage here and there to a member of the public to buy the odd overpriced ”glorified squat” to prop up the false value of these so called ”residential developments”.

Please Note: That this was only permissible after the developer and his cronies bought all the ”good” properties or in a lot of cases the entire development (with 100%-120% pig banker loans).

Only at this point was Joe Public allowed to pick through the overpriced ”scraps” so that then, our corrupt media could falsely report and proclaim a new ”property value level” and dishonestly give relevance to this ”Ponzi Property Boom”

To proclaim that any Irish man or woman in the street had anything to do with this corrupt criminal debt is a lie and it grossly over exaggerates the ordinary citizen’s role in this scam.

When it was taking AIB in Ireland 3-6 months to give Joe Public his First Time Buyer (Life Sentence) mortgage on his overpriced, over-inflated ”Glorified Squat” in west Dublin
It was taking 12 working days for AIB staff in London to dish up 100′s of millions £STG in non recourse ”questionable” loans.

I suppose it helped that the client was buying AIB staff tickets to The Rugby World Cup
(with his borrowed non recourse money)?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0121/1224310576268.html
http://www.independent.ie/business/world/kallakis-denies-he-stood-to-gain-personally-in-740m-fraud-case-2988962.html

To quote a post from boards.ie, not mine but I agree with it.
“What has “economic sovereignty” ever actually meant in the Republic of Ireland?

Protectionism, corporatism, parochial clientelism, state monopolies by the bucketload, unelected union bosses dictating policy, waves of mass emigration, giveaway budgets, property developers’ tax breaks, unsustainable minimum wages, increasing state spending by 140 percent within 8 years to make a boom “boomier,” bank bailouts, protecting some of the highest paid public servants in the world at the expense of everyone else … where to stop?

We shouldn’t be mourning the loss of Irish economic sovereignty — we should be cheering it. “

Hail Gary. Front Fighter for the United States of the World!

Rather than challenge ourselves and our representatives Gary you are ready to just hand ourselves over? Would you like us to have our hands placed on our heads? At least that would prevent them from giving us the proverbial pat!

Don’t recall saying we should hand anything over. I’m just not being a cheerleader for ‘sovereignty’ whatever that means to the person saying it. Having freedom allows good and bad things to be done, given our track record I think many people would applaud some oversight so we can’t do some of them again.

Jesus Gary. Way to go channeling Cecil Rhodes. Your an EU extreme nationalist and your letting that cloud your judgement. Europe, right or wrong, what what!

You got Cecil Rhodes from my posts… dear jaysus. Looking for some semblance of fact makes you an “EU extreme nationalist”… dear jaysus.
Why don’t some of you come in to the Politics forum on boards.ie where you have to actually prove what you say. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=99 I won’t hold my breath.

Some of the Journal stories recently have reminded me of Daily Mail headlines which is not a good thing.

Mark, you do realise that this poll is not a scientifically formulated poll which would be used as a serious reflection of public attitude. This is a quick and simple Q&A poll that is used to spark up debate and comment. I don’t think anyone here takes it as a serious reflection of public attitude except a few people of which you seem to be one of them. I wouldn’t go getting hot and bothered about it lad it’s not to be taken seriously.