I think the Leaving Cert will follow suit, they’ll have time to rethink it while the new Junior Cert works it’s way through.

If such reform does go in as envisaged at JC level then it would be 3 years before those who come through that system reach LC so it’s not like both have to be introduced simultaneously.

I’m all for it but as the father of a child who will be first to step into the new set up, I have concerns. We as a nation are known for not getting things off the ground well. Will teachers be prepared for this or will my daughter and other children who fist step into this system be the guinea pigs? It’s a real worry.

And to be fair Barry, Ireland has a poor enough history in terms of implementing educational reform.

It’s not completely down to the teachers though – in order to implement such changes they need to be able to outline something that everyone involved can buy into.

I think those are very real concerns Barry. Just look at the failure to implement Project Maths for an example of what can go wrong. I heard a student call it ‘English paper 3′ the other day. If it’s being done, teachers need to be more involved in the process of change and given the necessary retraining promptly.

i would be mindful and fearful of two things. getting teachers to assess their own work will lead to problems of preference and in some cases, bribes. another issue is will the learning objectives be clearly defined or will schools be asked to design their own, in which came a junior cert from in school won’t have the same value as the junior cert from another. and lets face it, this is partially based on a way to cut the budget. so there will be lots of mistakes

Exactly. Instead of drilling a dead language into them, we should be teaching them a language that will actually be of use in the business world, e.g, Spanish, German, or Mandarin Chinese.

Insert stereotypical anti-Irish language comment here. Rabble rabble.

I do agree that kids leave school not being able to speak a language, but i don’t think Irish should be scrapped. Children should be taught to speak the language and only then to write the language! Same with French, German or Spanish.
I also think that computer programming should be an option. Companies are crying out for programmers and its a huge growth, high revenue industry.

I think we should have 14 years of mandatory classes in Steam-Engine Operation. I’d hate to see the ancient art of Steam-Engine Operation become unpopular or worse, redundant in todays world. Besides, the kids love it.

Especially if, 14 years down the line, no one can operate a steam engine.

Reliable external verification of CA would push the cost close the that of marking the current JC, which by the way is… I don’t know because nothing I’ve read mentions how much it costs to run the Junior Cert. I mean, none of these reforms have anything to do with saving money, do they?

Ellen

You can be sure it has many underlying issues of saving money as far as the government are concerned, BUT they can’t say that as they need to be seen as thinking education is paramount regardless of cost ;)

Yes in reference’s to your previous reply on teacher marking, they are as worried about marking situation as many parents are. This is the government though and teachers/ parents concerns will be squished in their ‘groupthink’ strategies.
They didn’t see the reading ability going down when they decided to allow a vast array of novels to be used in the system. In their efforts to bring more interest from youngsters to reading amounted to standards in reading dropping! My daughter is fed up of the book they are doing for this current JC. Its a reading age of 10yrs! She comes home and reads much more advanced books. Her brother doing JC next year has the pleasure of doing ‘To Kill a Mocking Bird’. She is so jealous and at least he has a decent level book to do analysis on.
I’m not really sure were I stand on this reform to be honest. Think it needs reform but can the government produce an appropriate reform? Only time will tell and with their past record of errors………………….

When teaching the basis. Teaching and learning by rote is quite often the quickest and easy way. after all
1+1=2
1+2=3
1+3=4

If you know another way of learning French vocab without Rote learning, I’d love to know.

Perhaps it has. But then much of the criticism of GCSE system is much more about grade inflation and the reliability of it as a criterion based assessment of subjects.

Final exams is a method – with little variation available except the format of the examinations and the method through which results are delivered.
Continuous assessment is not restricted to a single method. The UK seem to have decided that they have tried continuous assessment and it doesn’t work – and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater.

A feature of the Scandanavians is that they recognise that very few foreigners will ever bother to learn their languages. They wisely start early with foreign language learning. Here and in the UK there is a kind of cultural laziness as a result of English being the world language, and the percentage of people with basic competence in even one foreign language is abysmally low. In this country, much time and energy is devoted to learning what is, outside of Gaeltacht areas, effectively a dead language, and a very difficult one at that. So much so that it puts many students off the idea of learning another more useful tongue. Your rightly point out that there’s far too much emphasis on the written and grammar aspects in our schools. A result of our focus on learning simply in order to pass exams. Other Europeans seem far more interested in the valuable life skill of being able to converse with millions or tens of millions of their neighbours.

Excellent ideas! Probably too sensible for Ireland but a great blueprint for a functional system!

That’s really quite close to an ideal IMO.
I’d have some concern though over “best 5 of 6″ situations. I understand that in the suggestion you are effectively trying to cater for illness etc but it can also mean that the 1 out of 6 can be strategically left behind. Perhaps there should be some provision there but I think there should be an encouragement of some kind to do well (or at least put in best effort) across all modules/subjects taken.

The practicalities of running all through math I & II… What do “ordinary level” pupils do while some move on to math III? I’m not clear on how this could be managed?

Lastly – new teachers have really been hung out to dry in terms of inequality of pay. They also are in the position where they are trying to impress by getting involved with as much as they can in the school and be seen as deserving of permanency all while most likely on part time hours. On top of it all, they also need to complete their NTIP (in evenings, often having to travel quite a bit) which is necessary to become fully registered with the Teaching Council. With new entrants having so much on their plate and the disparity in pay I’d think it better that established teachers should be the ones to provide after school assistance.

Tomy Iona,

I see your point about the 5/6, but generally speaking I think there has to be some allowance for performance to keep the pressure off, and avoid mental blocks. I, for instance, had a mental block around the circle in geometry for some reason. However, I was able to avoid the question. If everyone can play to strengths and show a good general grasp, this should be enough. Furthermore, teachers would be required to still examine and teach every topic, so no teacher would get to skip something they don’t know how to explain (e.g. probability, sequences and series)

With respect to ordinary level, Kids will stream themselves very quickly, so it should be obvious after Maths I whether or not a kid will be able to complete Maths III. So after first year, you separate out kids who will spend the next 2 years doing one of:
- Completing Maths I alone (foundation level kids)
- Completing Maths I and getting through some of Maths II (improved foundation or pass in Ordinary depending on accumulated grades)
- Passing failed Maths I modules and completing Maths II modules for passing/merits in Ordinary Level
- Doing Maths II and taking some of Maths III to improve Ordinary Level score or get pass in Higher Level
- Doing Maths II & III for passing/merits in Higher Level

I would keep Transition Year as a catch up opportunity for:
1. Students to complete Module III of any subjects, without improving their Junior Cert scores, should they wish to matriculate for Higher level attempts in the Leaving Certificate.
2. Students to repeat Modules to pass the Junior Cert before going onwards to Leaving Cert at whatever level they matriculate at.

As for the extra help? I agree everyone should pitch in, but I really think teaching to small groups and one:one is vital for educating a teacher. Different minds work different ways, and you need to listen to individuals explain things back to you so you can learn the variety of ways in which people approach a problem.

I think the shafting of junior workers to protect the pay of older workers is deplorable, and is always the result of unions who will feign outrage but really work for older members. I certainly wouldn’t choose teaching as a career path now, to be young, vibrant and doing more work on a different payscale to some of the dinosaurs that disappear for weeks every year on leave.

I meant to say in my comment above actually that the reason I would see a flaw in the 5/6 thing is mostly because of my own college experience. With a QCA that set me up for a 1:1 degree by the end of second year, my hard work was “stolen” away as the QCA was wiped for the beginning of 3rd year.

So now I have a 2:1 degree because of a couple of tough modules coming along over some tough times. If I was permitted to hold onto my QCA from 1st & 2nd year I’d have the 1:1 degree.

Perhaps a system that recognises this would be a “best situation” thing. That is, if you include all, and it’s giving you a better overall grade (link a QCA style thing) versus excluding the 1/6 then it should be available to you….

awww… poor baby

Obviously removing Irish as necessary within the criteria for some jobs would be ridiculous. It’s a prerequisite for some jobs.

I don’t have much Irish and I know the “dead language” point of view but there are communities in which this is central to their identity. In fact whether you use it or not, the language is significant to our identity. IMO it should be compulsory but the idea that so many leave school with little ability to hold a conversation in Irish is obviously concerning.

Currently papers are graded blindly over the summer by selected teachers. Those marking papers are in turn verified by examiners who randomly select papers, requesting 3 in every 100. If they spot a misunderstanding of the marking scheme they correct it and the changes are applied. When marking is completed the marker goes back through every paper to re-calculate the score in case of an error.

It probably wouldn’t be practical to have everything in continuous assessment sent out to distributed from the Dept in Athlone and examined in this way. More likely there would be peer review of all marking within a school, and departmental supervision taking samples at random. To be fair, I think there’d be just enough examination to ensure it wasn’t worth a teacher’s while to be vindictive.

It’s a real problem though. I once got a report card in the post which had D scratched out and E written beside it, and 45% scratched out and 38% written beside it, followed by the comment: “Rónán has failed!!! As expected!!!!!!!!!!!!”. My paper was obviously marked, and when it came to the report card he decided to fail me because he hated my guts, but possibly wanted me to know this too, but not bothering with a clean sheet.

My first thought were the same. My daughter already has one teacher who down marks her due to dislike. I have told her he won’t be marking you in exam. The year head when I complained (this is a drop by about 30%) immediately said yes we have a clash here and she really is a straight A student, this mark is nonsense. In fact he marked down the whole class! She asked to be told where she went wrong.. apparently she wrote a load of rubbish. I had to again go in to stress she wants to improve, etc.

Continual Assessment is good and should be taken into account as it does in uni, but needs to be marked by a person other than the tutor teaching. I have also had this in one of my module in uni (being marked down in assignments) the exam I jumped up 15%.. unusual thing to do its normally the other way around! All the state exams need revamping Junior and Leaving but in the correct way where student benefit properly.

More IT needed with exams and a language taught from primary which is usable! The government want to look where money is wasted…. Look no further than the Irish taught in schools. The money, time and effort stressed on it and as said above it doesn’t get used after school only by a minimum (think it stands at 8% but I could be corrected). German/French/Spanish/Mandarin used globally and daily NOT Irish. Then again isn’t thousands wasted yearly within the Dail itself? What ever they do admittedly no system will be without flaws but really they’ll mess it up the only job their experts at!!

Ingrid. This is precisely why teachers don’t want to mark their own students’ work when it comes to certification. We do not want to be put under pressure to raise or lower marks, or be accused – rightly or wrongly – of bias. People forget that teachers are part of their commnity, whether they live locally or not, and may well be marking the children of close friends or even colleagues.
The media as a whole are putting a very postive spin on these “reforms” but they are an abolition of the Junior Cert rather than its reform. Nowhere have I heard “Students’ work will no longer be independently assessed.”

Hi Ryan – the poll isn’t on the individual proposals themselves, it’s on whether people support an overhaul of the Junior Cycle itself. I do take your point but it’s to gauge whether people support an overhaul generally.
Thanks!
Aoife

A poll later today on levels of trust in the results would be very interesting. Hopefully we’ll get a clear picture on the obvious concern of possible bias in marking.

i think opting out of irish should be allowed .forcing students to learn a language is a waste of time. i never said irish was a dead language, but if you feel the need to force students to learn it,, then maybe your right it is a dead language and needs to be an option for children to CHOOSE TO LEARN.

I think it’s due for the current 5th class children.

Welcome to the real world. In the real world, if you don’t perform in your job, you lose out on promotions, salary increases, and/or could get let go.

I would rather they are a little bit stressed over a weekly friday test than sitting one giant test (in their minds) at the end of 6 years and thinking their future depends on what they write in that one little booklet.

@ doesnotcompute But when you do perform in your job teaching you still don’t get salary increases or promotions…

I meant Junior Cert at the start of that second paragraph, my bad.

i think its too simplistic to blame drop in reform, as more pressures on parents to bring in a double wage, less time to spend on childrens homework, checking schoolwork, and proberly numerous other factors would influence this drop. although i would say dumbing down exams so all children pass at some level is wrong, lowering standards does just that, it lowers standard.

Im not blaming the reform. Im just pionting it out and drawing attention to the fact that there has been a large drop in standards. As for parents not having time to help with homework. As someone who did my Intercert “junior cert” & leaving cert in 80′s. I can tell you that most parents at that time could not help there kids. With homework because they did not have the education themselves to help having left school and not attended secondary or only having compleated a groupcert.

If you don’t care, don’t vote … and maybe don’t leave a stupid comment. This isn’t about people with kids…. it’s our education system, which is kind of important to any social/economic system!! So yes the whole country generally should care or at least those of us not completely ignorant to the importance of education in society!!

sibhs you say your childless, by your comment i can only think your 18 yrs old ,of course that is too young to have children . but ….. if your older then as your comment is so immature , i would think YOU more than anyone would want a more forward thinking junior cert as you seem to have slipped through the system unnoticed.

As I childless person, you are not exempt from education. Our future workforce needs to keep up internationally so that there’s still money (taxes) to provide services for you in your old age when you’ve no children to look after you.

Sibhs

Grow up! Education is important to all. These children are the future who will bring Ireland into a fluid global economy. Without a good education they can’t do this which will effect all of the society. To remain in the wealthy western world education is the back bone. Yes we are in an economic crisis but we are still a wealthy country compared to others. It won’t stay that way if education standards/systems don’t follow what is needed for the era we are in.
So you should care as it may effect you more than you realise!