The communion has also evolved into a big family event, where a huge effort seems to be made to get everyone together on the day. In this respect, it is also like Christmas or a wedding.

This can’t be a bad thing, a special occasion for all the grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and best friends to meet up. And Parents, you can always dip into the takings to help pay for the day.

it is a bit of a weird thing to say isn’t it? I don’t understand that concept at all., bit of a weird mentality to have.

Me or her?

It’s a very Irish thing though.. If you try to stand up and be counted or do something against the norm there’s a large chunk of people who will sit around gasbagging about how fancy you must think you are..
Another form of begrudgery methinks..

her.

Ah.

yeah it would mean people actually going to mass if it what they want for kids then that’s the way it should be

Sunday school in the US is very expensive, even though it’s through a “contribution”, the parents still feel under pressure. That’s why the majority of sunday schools are in affluent areas. The poorest in society are often forgotten

Ah jeez come on!! Can u honestly imagine saying to a kid “u have to go to school on Sunday as well’!

That wouldn’t work in Ireland siobhan.
That would mean people would have to stop being hypocrites and actually go to mass and teach their kids about their religion themselves.
No they would much rather sit at home and let the state do that for them.

The churches in my area do Sunday schools, so why can’t all churches do it?
If the parents are serious about the Catholicism then let them be. Perhaps they can rally around and help facilitate the classes?
If they’re not, and haven’t set foot in a church outside of births, marriages as deaths then why on earth do they want their kids to make their communion / confirmation anyway?

Sunday school in the US is expensive. Yes, well where do you think God get’s all his/her money?

Ha ha very true josh! Shouldn’t care what people think! It’s the impact on my kids not me that worry me!

If it’s worth anything I was the only kid in class not involved in communion/confirmation in mid-90′s rural Galway and though I felt a little left out it wasn’t any sort of major life changer!

He was right, certainly at confirmation level the vast majority of kids are most certainly doing it for the money and certainly not for their faith.

At communion level the kids aren’t old enough to really know whats going on, as such they are effectively forced into it as part of peer pressure from many different sources

Good for him and you. Well done

Exactly – as I said above, how come these things all take place when the child is far too young to understand the supposed commitment that they are supposed to be making?
Is it because any older and only a very small number would do it?

My son too! He decided he did not want to make his confirmation because he did not believe in God. I was lucky and the school is ok with this decision, he does English or Maths while the class do the confirmation prep

If they are forced into it by Quinn then they’ll have to, also if the government took the line that government funding = equals none specific religious education then that would sort it also

So the church raped, beat and murdered children and still we let them run most of our primary schools….. well that like letting paedophiles run the playgrounds and being surprised when kids go missing. Separate church and state now

Ooh the Big bad church, you can guarantee the same ones would go running for a priest if they or someone belonging to them was dying!

No john, I stopped believing in imaginary friends a long time ago… might I suggest
that you .fo the same

Emma, such articles posted on-line will only attract the anti-catholic Trolls. My advice is to give your children the best of everything including a memorable day. If they do not care religion in the future then fine. At least they had a great day and great memories.

@Blathin So just because someone doesn’t have the same view on religion as you they are a troll. That is possibly one of the most insulting, closed minded comments I have ever heard.

Terrible advice Blathín, I myself was baptised, had communion, confirmed and I now feel disgusted that I never had a choice in any of those decisions. Given the choice now I would not choose to take part in any of them. Science has proven where we come from, what we’re made of and answers our questions through truth and findings rather than lies and fear. Religion does not belong as part of education.

Great article, extremely similar to my own personal experiences.

Don’t forget that recent survey that showed Irish primary school kids spend 10% of their time on Religion & only 12% on Maths.

100% agree… My son comes home from school some days telling how he was told “God made this” and “God made that”! I try to teach him about scientific and other historic lessons that I have leant such as evolution, the big bang and discoveries that scientists make at CERN I’ve come under angry critisism by family members because the believe I’m confusing him, I’ve never told him that god doesn’t exist, just that I don’t believe he exists and that it’s my choice to believe that, and that he can believe whatever he chooses to… More time should be spent on education and less on preping for communions and confirmations! The values a church teach can easily be taught at home and should be!

I was baptised (without consultation), made my communion and confirmation BECAUSE of the money. I never believed any of it and I was too young to realise that this would leave me on a register that the priests wouldn’t even respect my wishes to be removed from later.

How come when it comes to any other decision with lifelong implications you can’t make it for yourself before 18, yet with signing yourself up for life to a corrupt institution it’s gotta be done before puberty?

Oh no sorry, that’s exactly why isn’t it? Get em while they’re too young to question..

Dec Rowe -”I’ve come under angry critisism by family members because the believe I’m confusing him” Could it be Dec because you have no clue about science or the discoveries made at CERN? Try and tell your kid about the scientific theories on the purpose of existence! Maybe your kid is so advanced you have moved to the discussion on inadequacies contained in quantitative analysis! Then again I would say you have used assumptions to fill gaps in your knowledge like most of the rest.

Blaithin, my understanding of both religion and science is equal… My belief in both are not! I choose to believe what is proven not what hasn’t yet been! I wasn’t given such a broad view of both sides as a kid and as such feel my children will benefit from having me feed them with what Knowlwge I have… Typical of a religious person to attack a non religious person because they choose to believe something more meaningful! Prove that God exsists and I’ll accept your criticism

Blathín, information is freely available on the Internet these days, it’s easy to read up on the progress of CERN, what we’re made of, how we work, the stars that we came from. I’m guessing you plan on or have gotten married with the blessing of god whom you believe created the world yet you exchange/will exchange gold rings made from gold formed in the creation of this planet from the explosions of dying stars.

By the way just to clear I’m not advocating that religion should be removed from everyone lives. just that it should not be apart of education and that baptism, communion and confirmation should not be offered to a child until they are old enough to make the decision for themselves. It’s not much to ask.

Dec Rowe, Donal Rafferty exactly where did I urged anyone to believe in God and do I state that I am religious? Thus if it is not explicitly stated it stands to reason and can be empirically tested that you invented your opinions out of thin air.

Therefore it alludes to
1. A belief in science as a religious belief.
2. As you are both prone to inventing opinions without evidence this may also account for your belief in the omnipotent power of CERN.
3. Why then is it so obvious that you are both ignorant of science?

The answer to 3 is because science is deficient and has limitations. As you are both unaware of these limitations and have chosen science to replace your religion, it proves you still have religious belief under the new name of a belief in science. Tell me now I am urging for people to believe in God or religion.

Blathin, You seem like an educated individual…. Educated enough to know that youre coming across as a very aggressive and angry individual in your criticism of others beliefs! Maybe that’s your intention! Nice quality to have as a person!

Oh and by the way the ratio of likes vs dislikes on comments here seems to suggest that you belong to a minority with your beliefs! That must be reassuring to you eh?

Schools would be very happy to let priests or parents do the whole communion thing but that’s not going lo happen. why not get the children to make communion if their school uniforms? That would be a start.

My children didn’t do communion in their catholic school.Instead we toke them each on a lovely day out, spoiled them a bit for a fraction of the money usually spent on Communions.The eldest was the only one in the class but didn’t mind being singled out.The second had 3 more non- communionist s in the class and the third had 4 more kids in the same position! Just let’s all be honest and don’t pretend!

Dec Rowe, when one is proven to be using imaginary inventions, using more imaginary inventions does not indicate the presence of a half functioning intellect. Thus we can conclude that if religion is based on ignorance, so too are popular religious type beliefs in science.

One does not make oneself popular by proving and exposing the illusory superiority of those with the least Metacognitive ability.

Blathín,

1. A belief in science as a religious belief.
I do not see science as a religion, I do not require a religion, the two do not equate in any way
2. As you are both prone to inventing opinions without evidence this may also account for your belief in the omnipotent power of CERN.
Please highlight where I posted an opinion without any evidence? And show me where you backed up your opinions with evidence? I simply pointed to CERN as a project that I enjoy researching and following in response to your claim that people were using assumptions in their knowledge to “fill in the gaps”
3. Why then is it so obvious that you are both ignorant of science?
Please explain how you know enough about me to state that I am ignorant of science? Whats that you said about pulling opinions out of thin air?

The answer to 3 is because science is deficient and has limitations

Pleas do inform us of these deficiencies and limitations? Your vague responses suggest you don’t really know what your talking about, do you mean that most of science if theoretical? Of course it is, we are an extremely young species and have a lot to learn, we know very little about the world we’re in and even less about the universe but what we have learned in based on facts and findings and not blind faith.

when one is proven to be using imaginary inventions, using more imaginary inventions does not indicate the presence of a half functioning intellect

Where have you proven anything?

If science has been proven to use imaginary inventions then I wonder what this imaginary invention is that in typing this comment with! Science and it’s advances have brought us further in the last 20 years than religion has done in the last 2000 years! Where science compels use to learn more and more about the actual origins of things, religion strives to hold us back based on a backward belief that we are meddling in gods work! Get real!

Donal Rafferty, you want me to educate you? Well OK.

We will start with the basics from Berkeley University about the assumptions that underlie science. The same assumptions you use to see written information that was not written. Thus if assumptions can cause you to create illusions is there a problem with assumptions!

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/basic_assumptions

When you have fully understood the limitations as to what questions science can actually answer we will move on to epistemology where our voyage of discovery really begins.

From there our voyager will take us to the world of neuroscience to discover the many errors there are in human thinking (cognitive biases). When you are able to spot the errors in human thinking, you then will discover how silly it is to attribute your need for comfort to the omnipotent power of science.

Notice how I am bringing you on a journey of science. Science you never heard of or studied, otherwise you would not be so keen to display your lack of knowledge. Granted, it is an assumption but it is based on information that is plainly obvious.

Dec Rowe, science for some is what a blanket is to a baby. It provides comfort and some protection but mainly comfort. I never once said science was imagining things. What I wrote was to the effect that you had used your imagination to invent and see things that are not there. A bit like a religion! This may be the primary reason why your family members are so angry with you. I am merely helping you to see that.

Yeah! There is no spoon! Ha!

Blathín, you have taught me nothing I did not already know. I do not require comfort from science or religion, I have already stated that, please fully read my posts before replying. I do not view science as an omnipotent power, quite the contrary actually. Again I stated that.

I would like to get into a debate with you but your assumptions that I am intellectual incapable based on my limited posts here leads me to believe that it is not possible to engage in a meaningful manner which is a shame as if you weren’t so quick to be condescending I think I would enjoy engaging with your thoughts and opinions.

Well frankly Donal Rafferty you told me that I believed in god. Your exact words were “blessing of god whom you believe”. At no point have I here or elsewhere stated such a belief. It is a pure invention of your mind. Therefore (and it can be empirically proven) if one is prone to inventing suppositions from non existent and self fabricated information, it is suggestive that even more information stored in the mind is also illusory and fabricated.

In one sentence like the claim that CERN have all the answers you have demonstrated a naive understanding of science.

Metacognitive ability is “knowing about knowing” but you don’t know that. Proving a point because you did not even look it up.

The reason I take exception to people such as yourself is your attitude that you are superior based on your superior understanding of science which plainly you do not have. How do we know? Patently obvious, false claims about science and the use of false assumption.

@Blathín,

You first comment on this issue was berating the author for writing the piece as it would attract anti-catholic trolls. You set out your stance there. However the only troll Emma seems to have attracted is yourself. Every post since trolled anyone who mentioned science with your pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

Physical scientific theories are proven using maths, measurements and data, not by imagination. Sometimes we must construct models to interpreting what is around us to look at certain problems but this is only to aid in our understanding of these problems. Maxwells equations come to mind here. Probably one of the greatest discoveries the human race has made. Our understanding of what is going on may not be exactly what is going on but we have a model which accurately describes the interactions we can observe. It may not be the best model but it’s the best we have and until we observe interactions that do not agree with this model we will continue to use it.

That is what science is.

Also “when one is proven to be using imaginary inventions, using more imaginary inventions does not indicate the presence of a half functioning intellect. Thus we can conclude that if religion is based on ignorance, so too are popular religious type beliefs in science.”

This is so absurd, I really don’t know where to start. Do tell of what imaginary inventions you speak of. I’d love to know how you arrived at your conclusion. Are you really trying to equate a belief in a collection of bronze age manuscripts with scientific discoveries that can be proven time and time again.

Also you seem to think that you can empirically test the thought processes of a commenter by making unsubstantiated assumptions on their experience and or lack of by what they posted here in two or three sentences.

You automatically assume that people do not understand concepts they speak of and assume that they use some sort of belief system to understand scientific theory. You do realise you are using the worst example of ‘bad science’ to try and prove your own belief system. i.e. Drawing conclusions before you have gathered sufficient (or any) data and it makes you sound like an idiot. People with no training in scientific method are prone to this. Learn to walk before you can run. One Philosophy of Science module does not make a scientist.

You were way ahead of your time, I was well into adulthood when I discovered the true meaning of “confirming”yourself as a Catholic!

Wow, that’s some impressive independent thought for your age and time! Fair play, and fair play to your dad for having your back.

simple really, if you do not want your child involved say so. there are plenty of non catholic children in catholic schools who dont take part. maybe proplr should make their own decisions and not wait for someone else to do it for them

simple really, if you do not want your child involved say so. there are plenty of non catholic children in catholic schools who dont take part. maybe prople should make their own decisions and not wait for someone else to do it for them

You just don’t get it Johny. It takes up all the teachers time. Kids who don’t take part will be sitting there colouring pictures instead of learning.
If you want to bring your kids up catholic, stop being so lazy and do it yourself.

Sums up my thoughts exactly! My son just started school this year and only catholic schools around where we live.

Johnny the point of the article is that if kids don’t take part they feel left out because all their friends are doing it. My son is making his communion this year. The only mass I’ll be going to is the one communion mass, no more. My wife is doing the rest. I’m not participating because I don’t believe any of the BS but my wife is doing it because she feels she has to. Neither of us are mass-goers.

We got our son baptised because we feared we wouldn’t get a place in our local school if we didn’t. That was the only reason. We we’re not raising him with any preconceived ideas about an afterlife, aside from saying no one knows what happens when you die, maybe nothing. I wouldn’t I’d let him get confirmed, the religion has nothing to offer that isn’t covered by common sense and a decent upbringing. Don’t live in Ireland any more, but the plan was to let him have a “non-communion” party or buy him something cool, a radio controlled car or a robot or something, anyway, he’s a sensible kid, I don’t think he’d fall for all that God stuff.

@johnny, it’s nothing to do with that.. I have said so, she will NOT make her communion, why should she be left out? That’s my point, doesn’t matter how much I speak out about it she will feel different and that is not fair.
Also in relation to your previous question are other religions taught in islamic countries? Well we live in a republic that’s the difference. Supposed to be secular. If I was in an Islamic republic then the rules of the land are governed by sharia law.

@johnny, it’s nothing to do with that.. I have said told the teacher, she will NOT make her communion. But why should she be left out? That’s my point, doesn’t matter how much I speak out about it she will feel different and that is not fair.
Also in relation to your previous question are other religions taught in islamic countries? Well we live in a republic that’s the difference. Supposed to be secular. If I was in an Islamic republic then the rules of the land are governed by sharia law.

@paul.. Thinking along same lines as you… A non communion party :) we didn’t have a christening either instead we had celebration/naming day celebration dinner for close family. No church involved, oh yeah and no big major pi** up either which any christening I’ve ever attended seems to be about.

Sounds nice Irene!

It could be easily transferred to a “coming into the teens” party, it’s around that age right?

But Quinn’s proposals are arseways. If you live in Dublin, there are loads of schools to choose from. If you don’t fancy the idea of the Evil Spider Empire anywhere near your kids, you can usually find a non-denominational school, or make some jam and pretend to be Protestant.

If you live somewhere quieter, there is only one realistic choice of school. It is always Catholic, and they will frequently bully you into joining up.

If you’re going to take half the RC’s schools away, they should be the half in less populated areas. That way, no one is forced into anything, and the RC can cater for a real base rather than an apathetic one.

Spot on Alex. (From rural Donegal.)

Plus one (from rural Donegal, too).

Now that’s a survey that the department of education should be running..

You speak for the whole country Roy? If you think people ticked the box for the fear of mammy then you must be a bit simple.

The whole question of religion or not should not be on a government Census Form. It’s nobody’s business except your own.

The whole question of religion or not should not be on a government Census Form. It’s nobody’s business except your own. Outdated census.

The whole question of religion or not should not be on a government Census Form. It’s nobody’s business except your own. Outdated census

Roy I agree. The options on the census should just be Christian, non Christian or no religion. I know lots of born Catholics who no longer attend Catholics services but do follow the basic Christian laws and would feel uncomfortable defining themselves as as non believers.

I agree Roy – I reckon the number of true Catholics who follow the faith to the letter could be counted on one hand in this country! The fact is that policy may be made on census information and people need to not tick any religion unless they are actually a practising person – I think there was another survey worded differently that found that the number of really believing and practising Catholics was much lower than the census indicated – perhaps some tick it simply because they were baptised a Catholic. In any event, even if you would describe yourself as broadly Christian, you simply cannot extrapolate out of that that the person would therefore be in favour of a segregated education system or children being indoctrinated into their own beliefs – many may not. John, I am grateful that religion is on the form since it does chart the decline of religious belief in this country in a way that helps us counter people who like to say we are still a ‘Catholic country’…

I had to argue with my father a few censuses back as he was marking me in as Roman Catholic which I am not. I may have been baptised but I was barely 1 month old at the time, and the communion and confirmation were all about the money. I don’t believe in it, ed of.

With regards the suggestion of only listing Christian options to my mind that would be rather discriminatory. It shouldn’t be on there at all, your religion is your own business, and it should have no bearing on government policy whatsoever.

They do teach about all religions, I am currently helping my daughter with her religion homework and it’s about Islam at the minute. It’s quite intensive in fact. I’ve learned quite a bit myself.

if i move to a muslim country can i learn all religions in their schools?

Absolutely not Johnny!! Look at the persecution the small Christian minority in Pakistan are subjected to daily.

No jonny you can’t. But do you really want Ireland to be like the Muslim countries?
Religious education should be taught in schools since sadly religion plays a huge role in lives all actions the world.
But there is no room for the church in our schools. Communion and confirmation shouldn’t be anywhere near schools. Do it on your own time.

@jonny That’s either a flippant comment or a stupid one. All people want is choice. I can’t think of anyone who wants to deny people their right to religion. Surely we want to look to a future for all rather than taking a step back and forcing people to one idea of how to live your life?

Children shouldn’t be taught religion in school under any circumstances, parents can do that at home. Religion is the antithesis of learning and rather than developing a child’s mind, merely narrows it and extinguishes curiosity. And to the author Emma, if my mother had prevented me from doing my communion in primary school, I might have felt ‘left-out’ for a few months, but I would have been eternally grateful to her from my teens onwards, and I would have been proud, anyway, it’s not that bad, I remember a few kids in my primary school who didn’t make their communion, they got to read books together (a bit weird) but I was always jealous.

Our Religious “education” teacher told us hinduism was a cult…

Ah yeah, but they’re all cults really..

A cult with nearly 1.5 billion followers!

Ah Blathin or should I say Norris I see you’ve been let out of the padded cell again. There , there now as I said before the Roman Catholic Church did not commit crimes against humanity in the form of rape , torture , abuse and enslavement of innocent young children and women. No need to deny the holocaust anymore my dear. Come on now back to padded cell you crawled out of.

@donal take no heed of the holocaust denying Blathin aka Norris . I and others have already figured out that duty nurse in the asylum left the cell door open and PC unlocked. He really doesn’t have anything substantial to offer its all delusional rantings I’m afraid. Just agree and tell him how wonderful and righteous he is . What ever you do don’t spoil the illusion that the Roman Catholic Church is a force for good despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Guess you’ve never heard of Scientific Method & Francis Bacon then? Is the Catholic Church also responsible for your lack of general knowledge?

Yes and those two topics always come up in religion class.

LP Fitz,
Even you have to admit that when religion and maths are being thought at the same amount in primary school that is extremely worrying!

They are far from equal subjects and as such religion should never ever take up 10% of school time in primary school, but then it does!

Other than the subject we specialise in as a career we only use minor bits of the other subjects in adult life yet they all contribute to us as rounded people. 10% to a subject is not excessive.

@tomnewman.org – 1 minute of the time spent teaching nonsense is 1 minute too much. Religion is about teaching Beliefs which have no evidence whatsoever to back them up. Imagine if the school taught “1+1 = 16″ or “Pi = 4.5″ or “George Bernard Shaw was in the Spice Girls” – followed by “We can’t prove any of this, but you should believe us”. There would be an outcry.

How can you teach “The Earth rotates around the sun” and then in the next class “Psalms 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; *it can never be moved.*”

How can you teach “Civil rights” in once class then in the next class teach “Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”

How can you teach “Pi = 3.14159″ and then in the next class teach “1 Kings 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim . . . It took a line of *thirty* cubits to measure around it.

And to top it off, for maximum confusion, how can you teach “John 5:31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” and then in THE SAME CLASS teach “John 8:14 Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid.”

Can you not see how harmful and confusing this is for children trying to learn?

Eh, perhaps if children were taught where maths derived from they might have a better understanding of both subjects. Pythagoras was one of the greatest mystics that ever lived. Central to all Mystery Traditions (religions) is the central mystery of squaring the circle. In other words the mystery that we can never precisely know the area of a circle at all. Teaching maths as purely factual is missing the paradoxical nature of mans understanding.

In ancient times, the two pillars of civilization were church and govt and among classicists there is a recognition that where one is weak the other will be weak too. Those were the days though when High Priests had proper authority and could call down a pox or plague on Kings who neglected their proper duties.

Bring back the Philosopher Kings!!

I’m not sure is Anne a very good troll or just an idiot :/

Idiot?
The great man thinks he knows everything. The Fool knows he knows nothing.

For the history of maths, see Pythagoras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

For a history of trolling, I highly recommend this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMtbNJ81X0&feature=youtu.be

There is no way on this planet that I would allow my kids to be initiated in any manner into the so-called Church. They just do something else while the other kids do their communion classes though personally I think that has no place in school hours especially after the church’s history with children. They should have been removed from the education system years ago.

Re Andy comment on my comment The form of religion you describe should be no part of a child’s formation and is the flaw in ” book religions”. Catholicism differs from what you describe in that it endeavours to communicate character, compassion, virtues etc. as its primary mission and considers books even the bible as secondary Books are seen as a clumsy and often destructive record of things invisible like Love, Compassion and Conscience. Your description of ”religion” is more applicability to the bible cults and intelectual churches who criticise Catholics for their lack of emphasis on the bible

Maybe I misunderstood your original post Anne. It seems like you are advocating a return to classical paganism. If that’s not the case and I did indeed misunderstand you then I apologise. However if that is what you meant then I stand by my comment that you are an idiot.

I’m not advocating anything, but if you are going to replace the teaching of religious dogma with that of scientific dogma, then I think our children have a right to know the history of our mathematical knowledge.

It is not as cut and dried as some seem to imply.

Pi written out to 10 trillion digits is still incomplete. That we cannot ever know the area of a circle is a fact and one of the great mysteries that is central to human existence. The Mystery, I would suggest, is something to be celebrated- this press for rationalism, in my view, merely veils a deep fear of the unknown. Well, there is unknown. The unknown exists. To try to brainwash children into thinking otherwise whether through religious or scientific education is to do them an injustice.

Anyway, calling someone an idiot because you don’t agree with them is bloody rude. You may have been taught maths and religion but I’m afraid your lessons in basic good manners didn’t do the job.

Religion should be ditched as a subject, it would make much more sense to teach philosophy, a far healthier subject.
@Andy Murry, excellent comment!

@ tomnewnewman.org, you can teach all those good things without a religious wrapper.

A lot of people seem to be mixing things up.

10% of time on the subject of religion in it’s current form is certainly too much when teaching something that is pretty much determined by the ulterior motives of a school’s patronage. And I’d agree that 1 minute is too much.

Unfortunately, while many would say that you can’t teach belief (and by definition you can’t) the unfortunate truth of it is that when there are 30ish young impressionable 7 year olds in a room being told that first holy communion will save them from eternal damnation then those impressionable 7 year olds WANT to believe. They obviously also want to be a part of what everyone else in the class is taking part in.

10% on the subject of spiritual traditions (including “levels” of belief, atheist, agnostic, strict, orthodox, fundamentalist) however could be very enriching for pupils if we could trust that it could be taught in an objective way.

Sacraments and the rites of specific religions should have no place in a school. Unless of course that was Sunday school or organised outside of the time paid for by the taxpayer.

Presumed religious is spot on – but it might be changing.

When my first child was born, a certain Dublin maternity hospital entered her on its records as “Catholic”. How can a 1 day old baby have a religious belief, asks I? She seems to be aware of Mummy, Daddy, milk and – I’m pretty sure – Nelly The Elephant. After a frank exchange of views, I manually amended the record.

When my second child was born, the religious references had disappeared from the sheet.

Full of crap there M. Was your child made do it at the end of a gun? How exactly were ye forced into it?

Ok you try walking into the schools in your area, tell them you are an atheist and that your child is not baptised and see how high up the enrollment list they get! Had to baptize my children simply so they could get an education in this country because there are not enough non-religious schools available. Then, the very first day your child goes to that religious school, the indoctrination starts and you have no choice from there!

@M
‘ As an athesist I feel like a minority ‘

Ehh hello…. You ARE a tiny minority

I agree thats complete nonsense, you dont have to let your child make his/her communion. If you are an atheist and bringing your children up likewise at home and you have strong beliefs then asking that your child be removed from RE shouldn’t be such a trauma. If all parents who felt the same requested this then a change would be made…even reading the comments posted here you would know that you are not alone in your belief and probably no longer in the minority. Or are you one of those atheists who celebrates Christmas?

And also these issues are not just in schools run by catholic institutions. My sisters are teachers. One works in an educate together school and there are problems there as well as a lot of Muslim parents do not wish their children educated on other religions and atheists do not wish their children to be educated on any religions. Children are given other activities to do at this time….Muslim parents in particular are very outspoken on the issue and have been facilitated accordingly….perhaps parents of other backgrounds should do the same instead of worrying what others will think of them!

More crap, theyre made do nothing. I remember from my days in school there was a few kids that didnt do religion and the only thing the were forced to do was to study another subject.
You chose to have your kid baptized so you could put them in a school that suited you.

@Jim Well yes as I said I am a minority, but it looks like the tides may be turning.

@Eimear We should not have to opt out in the first place. It should be all religions or none at all, which I actually would not mind. Also I do Santa, which like the communion, is now a completely commercial event and has pretty much nothing to do with religion. No one forces me to do Santa, its my choice to do it or not but I still feel communion is different.

@Felix 10 years ago I gave in to the pressure to get my children baptised because otherwise it meant a two hour round trip twice a day just for them to get an education. I now feel pressured into having them make their communion/confirmation and to be honest I’m getting sick of having to give in all the time when it comes to religion for fear of offending other people.

@jim ahh jim ahh jim and @M – It’s a false premise that the religious are in the majority. The VAST majority of this country DO NOT go to church on a regular basis and DO NOT live their lives strictly to the teachings of the church. They might say they are religious, but they don’t actually DO anything religious to back that up.

I can say that I class myself as a “Sporty person” but if I never get off the sofa, then clearly I’m not.

This Sunday morning, have a quick check: What percentage of the population is in Church? 5%, maybe 10%? That leaves the other 90%-95% doing other things. By what measure are the religious in the majority there?

One of the biggest lies that the church spreads is that they represent the majority of the people. It’s just more nonsense.

Great reply!

@M I’m still puzzled as to who you are worried about offending? As @Andy Murray says the majority of people are not religious anymore and as I previously posted even reading other comments should reassure you that you are not alone….

@Eimear Well obviously I have offended you and quite a few other people this morning judging by the replies I’ve gotten.

@M, no you haven’t offended me at all! It’s just discussion!

Eimear, atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief, specifically in theology. Common misconception.

@Eimear I’m glad I haven’t offended you. I’m also very glad, as I’m sure a lot of other people are too, for the opportunity to have these discussions; and there is no harm in them as long as we all are mature and respect each others opinions and our right to express them.

Here listen.. Santa Claus had nothing to do with Christianity anyway so people can celebrate the return of the Sun with him if they like – its got sweet f.a. to do with Christianity and most Christians are well aware of that.

It’s the winter solstice, or more accurately, the date that the sun starts to rise higher in the sky after the solstice (further north, where the tradition comes from, it’s 3 days of total darkness and celebrating the return of the sun on the 25th)

Santa Claus was a Shaman with an Amanita Muscaria Mushroom. Everything in the modern day Christmas bar the nativity and mass comes from here. The guy in red and white laughing his ass off and flying (because he’s hallucinating) with a sled drawn by reindeer (who are also partial to the mushrooms), climbing down chimneys to distribute the gifts from beneath the tree (those mushrooms grow under what we now call “Christmas” trees), this is the reason we have the tree, the star on top represents the North Star (and the Plough or Chariots circumnavigation of this star in a night) and the tinsel.. Well, perhaps you’d rather not know what that represents..
Even the mushroom looks like Santa.. All that guff about St Nicholas and him being Green and Coca Cola rebranding him red, it’s nonsense.. And it only explains Santa and gifts, nothing else – ask yourself, what makes more sense?

Please don’t try to credit Christianity with the meaning of this celebration. They hijacked it, just like everything else.. It’s bad enough they renamed it. It was initially called YULE.

Still is some places!

Yeah, we still give “Yuletide greetings” and the other name was Candlemas so we kept the “mas”.. Just literally tacked Christ onto it..

You think religion class teaches respect and manners? If that was the case then surely Catholics would be the most respectful people towards people of other faiths and anyone that is gay?

But hey….its certainly not the case.

Yeah because religion has done a great job so far or practicing what it preaches, hasn’t it?

Testify brother!

While I understand your attitude I disagree slightly on one point. You are very unlikely to de-convert a theist with one sweeping argument, no matter how brilliant, logical or irrefutable. But you can chip away at their faith bit-by-bit. You may leave a discussion with a theist thinking you accomplished nothing as they are still repeating the nonsense they started with but you may have planted a small seed of doubt. It can take a long time because it can take a long time for these doubts to build (they may never do). The thing is many atheists are former theists. They once believed all the nonsense too. So a theist may become a future ally. So being in anyway hostile towards a theist is counter-productive as you are more likely to turn them off what you are saying. That’s why you should always respect others’ beliefs regardless of how crazy they are (unless they are hateful beliefs) and ensure you let them know you are not personally attacking them but only discussing ideas. It’s easy to get frustrated, even angry, but really even if your points are hitting home a person won’t admit it, at least not straight away, as their ego won’t allow them to be shown to be so totally wrong. They need to come to terms with it and their faith may never allow that but then all you can do is respect their choice regardless of how much you disagree and hope they don’t try and impose their flawed beliefs on others (at which point anger is justified).

I like the cut of your jib. Is there a newsletter I can subscribe to?

Exactly what i think about, I have 3 kids, 2 of whom are in educate together, the eldest is in the same place i was sent to, I basically told the Principle when #1 was in 1st class that i wanted her to choose when she was over the age of 18 and an adult, not when she is 8 . The Al la cart aspect wrecks my head you either in or out

Can I ask do they regret getting communion? It’s great to hear your children have been educated properly to know how to make valid decisions by 12 and not be forced into a decision that would clearly have had been pressured on them by the school and their peers. Sounds like you raised them well.

Sandra, you are missing the point! I assume we are talking about a Catholic school here that is teaching only the Catholic religion to children as The Truth from an early age. That is the real issue. Because nearly all schools ARE Catholic schools, there is simply NO choice for parents who either are not Catholic, or else do not want their children to be ‘formed’ in the faith and kept away from instruction about other religions, or else want them not to have a segregated education.

Most children educated all day long in a school that promotes one religion through every subject are going to be susceptible to wanting to join in the ceremonies of that religion. Then the parents have a dilemma – parents who never wanted to send their kids to a school that is defined by one religion in the first place – taxpayers all…

How can a six-year-old make an informed decision – the brainwashing nature of religious schools means, surprise, surprise, those educated in Catholic schools will want to do the Catholic ceremonies, those educated in Jewish schools will want to do the Jewish ceremonies. It is nothing to do with objective reality, but what they are taught to believe by adults they trust… I think this is an abuse, but as a parent you have no choice in this country. So don’t talk about being shallow – if a child has been influenced and wants to make their Holy Communion, no matter how strange and wrong this is to you, and whether you think they have been grossly indoctrinated, you would have to let them. In the same way as if they were at a school that promoted doing drugs and drinking it would be hard to tell them they could not do this!!!

If you think a Catholic school caters for all, then try to imagine a situation where you had to send your kids to a school of another religion, say, Jewish, and the parents there were saying, sure just let them have the Barmitzvah (though 12 is a more mature age at least to make this kind of decision) and chill, or else don’t be shallow, just don’t let them, even if they have been brought up as a Jew through their teaching every day in the school. That’s what it is like for a non-Catholic or a non-religious parent in Ireland today and we are a very large group.

That’s your opinion, but other people think otherwise, that religion is a requirement for living.

Don’t try and impose your opinions on every parent and every child.

There should be a choice of schools, religious and non-denomination.

Ruth tell me what its used for everyday?

Christian Morality, Mjhint, Christian morality…

(And yes, I know many (most?) Christians are severely lacking in Christian morality)…

Christian moralty is what exactly? From my own research it involves human sacrifice the crusades the spanish inquisition the rape & beating of children. Aligning itself with fascism in Italy Spain & Germany. Providing false information on condoms in Africa. Actively promoting poverty. Will I go on. Ruth your welcome to it. Im trying to do better by my kids.

Can you use it to open a can of beans? Or is it just for opening cans of worms.

I know Tomy, but it is a bit galling for parents who are not religious to have no choice but to send their kids to a school that is specifically espousing ONE set of supernatural religious beliefs from a bewildering choice of (often conflicting) sets of beliefs – because particularly for young children who are more susceptible this is going to influence them and so is actually NOT allowing them to have the chance to make the decision for themselves. If this is the case, then why not send them to a Muslim school or a Jewish school – how can teaching susceptible young children day in and day out about one set of religious beliefs as The Truth be allowing them to make up their own minds???!!!

My son went to an Educate Together school and we were totally open to whatever choices he made for himself, knowing that his moral development and innate goodness were not reliant on his following any religious path. At one point he felt drawn to Christianity and as complete non-believers ourselves, we supported him in this and would have supported him if he chose to join a particular religion and take part in its ceremonies. In the end he did not, and at 16 he says he is an atheist – this may change over time – the point is that it is up to him, but that if he had had a Catholic schooling that to me would have been an immoral indoctrination and he would not have been able to make an objective choice.

Oh absolutely – I think such indoctrination is completely underhand. I wish it was different and it presents unnecessary challenges to the already complex minefield that is parenting.

It is something that seems to be changing (slowly but thankfully) and I hope it changes enough that people finally feel that they have a choice which is not the kind described by the author.

Hey Annie, try explaining to a 7 year old girl that she’s not getting the big day out or the dress or any of that because her parents have chosen not to… the sad thing is, it’s all about the consumerism and not about the sacrament.

Well, give her an *alternative* big day out. Something she’ll love you for, and shrug her shoulders about the communathingy.

But they do, just look at comments on thejournal and how certain people react to changes that government try to make in relation to the control religion has in our daily life.

If nobody cared a damn about anyone’ view on religion then surely it would be ok to have gay marriage? What…you mean thats not the case???

;)

They do. They also give out and gossip about which school you choose for your kids, especially if you’re seen to be “different” and giving yourself “airs”.

Children should be learning respect and friendship from family and friends anyway, to say they need to take part in a religious ceremony to learn that is ridiculous.

You’d ask the child what they wish to do? This from the woman who says that she’s raising her children anti-choice and that they’ll never, ever think anything else?

I believe it’s actually up to you to do something about it. If you fear the reaction of others and are afraid your son will be othered nothing will change. Now is the time that you teach your son, even at this young age, that it makes him a stronger person to believe in what he and you are standing for.

In the past it was the fear for the church, now it is the fear for peer pressure and what others might say. This fear is what keeps this going.

My son went to a catholic school and I presume he has also experienced peer pressure but we taught him that the fact that he was different from the rest also worked in his favour, because it also made others curious about him.

If you think communion is not something you want go for it and make yourself and your son a stronger person by standing for what you believe in.

The problem is that they don’t cater to the non-Catholics in the country, they teach everything from a Catholic point of view.
I have no problem with people wanting to practice their own religion, whatever that may be, but it has absolutely no place whatsover in our eduction system. Education is about broadening the mind, not listening to doctrine from an organisation that tried to keep us down for hundreds of years.

“The answer is to open more non demoninational schools to cater for those who do not wish any religion taught to their children.”

errr, not its not the answer.

At a time when everything is facing cuts you want to stretch the education budget even more by opening more schools which will cost the tax payer more, are you prepared to pay more tax for this to happen, perhaps we should cut the social welfare bill to ensure there’s money available for this?

The answer is to use the existing schools and ensure that they are not single religion schools, its a waste of money and resources to have two schools in an area just so one can be catholic only and one is not.
Given church and state are separate the government should not be funding religious education,

You are saying teaching religion at the weekends isn’t suitable, but are you not already going to mass on the weekends….or atleast surely you are going to mass at sometime during the week with your child? As part of communion you should be should you not?

I find it amusing that some “Catholics” will claim they are religious and want religion in school but they hardly ever go to mass, I have yet to meet a Muslim who says they are very religious but doesn’t atleast go to service ATLEAST one time during the week.

Seems many parents just want the state to pay for and use school time for religious teachings but the parents can’t really be bothered themselves, many other faiths do not depend on the government to teach their faith so why are Irish parents doing this?

I attended a Community College, and came up against a brick wall when I questioned why our “multi-denominational” school (as they called it) didn’t celebrate ANY other religions or cultures. Our religion class was taught solely from a Catholic point of view (the teacher’s textbooks were from Veritas) and they insisted on having a graduation “Mass” for us said by the local Priest. We campaigned heavily to have it as non-denominational as possible, with poems etc, but they stonewalled us pretty much every step of the way.

Barry, the fact of the matter is that the state are actually in the process of building lots of new schools all around the country to cater for the huge population increase and impending increases. So why not have several of those schools as multi or non denominational schools. The tax payer is already paying for them, they’re not extra schools. And Lauren, my children go to a VEC school and learn about all world religions. My daughter is actually going to a Mosque as part of the learning experience. They know just as much about other religions as they do my own. I actually do go to mass, I don’t force my teenagers to go but I bring my youngest. If they choose to come back, great and if they don’t, what can I do?

Several? Only several of them should be non-denominational? Just “several”? Feckin’ all of them should be non-denominational. Look at the public outcry for secular schools. My sister has her nine-month old signed up for the local educated together school. Said school is currently working out of two buildings that are about a mile apart and they have no yard. The local catholic school is massive and I’d say a good 25% of the kids there have only been baptised so they could get into the school with a proper building. Why not take religion out of the bigger school and put on Sunday school classes in the small one? Children are entitled to a non-secular education and they should be entitled to the same quality facilities as the children getting secular ones, but that is simply not the case. The solution is to take religion out of the schools. If the church really care about children’s religious education they can host free sunday schools. Maybe they can put the Sunday collection to some use.

All of them should be non-denominational. If you want religion, go to Sunday school.

That makes you a hypocrite then Catriona, sorry to break it to you. You’re picking and choosing the bots you want to suit yourself. But I understand the pressure. There are alternatives though. Beautiful, impressive alternatives with just as much ceremony and meaning

Not really Appi,

The symbolism of a marriage, a couple wanting to share their love for each other by making a public commitment to their family and friends doesn’t require religion at all. Neither does celebrating the life of a loved one after they have passed on.

Regarding hypocrisy, the church know who their regulars are, they’re the hypocrites, they’ll happily accept your cash to put on a wedding no matter who knocks on the door.
I do like churches, old churches are fantastic buildings, great places for such a declaration of commitment. I’ve no problem using a church for marriage if the priest has no problem accepting my cash, even though I make it clear I’m not religious.

I attended a lovely wedding earlier this year. No church, no god. Just two people standing up in front of all their nearest and dearest to celebrate their love and make it official with the state.

Nicest wedding I have ever attended. No uncomfortable church pews, no feeling like a hypocrite being in a church – the service was in the same location as the reception too – minimum hassle.

People get married all over the place, church or not. There’s no need to bring the church into it unless you want to. And if you aren’t religious, I would wonder why you would want to have a church wedding at all.

Well argued piece. Except for the fact religion is just one big pissing contest around the world. Faith is for people who are afraid that when they die there is nothing. I’d love it if there was a god, love it. But all logic, intellect, science and cop on tells us it’s one big fairy tale.

If your kid is in a catholic school they should just lump it?
What if the catholic school is the only option?
As for the church needing new blood, perhaps it does, but maybe it should focus on welcoming people who choose it for themselves rather than having state sponsored brainwashing for small children eh?
If the catholic faith cannot survive on that, then perhaps it’s time it fell into the same hole as the other 2000 gods that share the same life story as Jesus..

I tried leaving the Catholic church recently, but apparently they’ve put a stop on that now, so not only are you hoodwinked into it as a kid, they won’t let you leave either. I think as long as they’ve got you down on paper it looks good for them; they don’t care if you’re legit or not. Maybe if I burn a bible or two they’ll kick me out!

@Paul

My great-aunt had herself excommunicated from the Catholic Church recently. Not entirely sure how she did it – I think there may have been an online form she filled out – but she went out of her way to remove herself from the church. Two months later, she received a letter from the parish priest asking her to reconsider. He would regularly call by her house and send further letters warning her off the ‘spiritual dangers’ if she left the church. Next came a letter from her bishop. A few months later, a letter from a cardinal. Each letter reiterating the same premise; stay with us, or ELSE.

Eventually, the Church realized they were getting nowhere with her, and decided to send a letter to her 90 year old mother, informing her of her daughter’s decision to leave the church and how it was her responsibility as a parent to ‘restore her faith’. Fortunately, my great-grandmother has never been a religious woman, and told them where to shove it, but it is entirely true that the Catholic Church will make it an absolute pain in the arse to leave – even as far as using the school-yard tactic of ‘I’m telling your parents!”.

Religion in primary schools takes up 10% of time in Ireland, by comparison maths takes up 11%…that means Irish schools are teaching religion almost at a equal level as maths! This is frankly insane.

From a survey of 30 other countrys the average amount of school time spend on religion in the other countrys is 5%…Ireland is twice this. This is not good use of school time, the kids times, teaching resources and tax payer money.

Saying it should be done because its tradition is just nonsense,

It was also “tradition” in Ireland for women to stay at home and not to work, it was also “tradition” for women who had kids outside of marriage to be sent away so as not to shame the family. I guess we should keep doing those backward things to?

Well said Barry. We might as well give a 40 min class to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and Santa while we are at it. Thankfully in one more generation religious nonsense will be almost a thing of the past.

An appeal to tradition is a fallacy. I don’t think fallacies should have any place in how our schools are run.

NO, teach your children how to be strong, to be able to say NO, to stand up to peer pressure. This is critical to self-esteem. Explain the situation to them.

Teach them not to be angry, that “no” is a word spoken, not shouted.

It’s still not right to be forced to have your child indoctrinated just because of a lack of other options.

And I disagree with communion being a right of passage for young people. It’s no longer about any of the “values” that it used to claim to uphold and is more about, as the article describes, the fanfare and the money. And to force beliefs on children who are incapable of making their own mind up is absurd.

Childhood indoctrination is a very powerful tool that religions worldwide have perfected so well that, as many of these ill informed
comments show, it still haunts people throughout their adulthood.

What are you on about? A right of passage that needs to be replaced at that age? I can’t think of one in Britain – closest might be the 18th/21st birthday.

What are you on about a right of passage that needs to be replaced? When I was growing up it was the move to secondary school was everyone’s right of passage. A lot more inclusive.

(Yes, I thought of a closer one afterwards but for some reason both went through!)

Well, that’s GOD and religion summarized quite neatly for you.

I don’t think anybody is saying that we do away with religion being taught in schools Annie… personally I would prefer that we do not categorise our school children purely by their family’s religion, but I would be prepared to compromise with multi-denominational schools that cater for children from all religious backgrounds and for the moral development of children (a different thing!).

In a multi-denominational school religions ARE taught in school, and they are all celebrated, with for example the children celebrating and making artwork and posters for Easter, or Diwali, and they also learn about non-religious beliefs. They are all together learning about each other’s family backgrounds and beliefs (which is not necessarily the same thing as their own beliefs!).

In a school that only teaches one religion, I am sorry but you are in fact indoctrinating children – what other reason would there be for not teaching them about all religions and letting them make up their own minds?

You say there are schools of different faiths and schools with no religion being taught and that there is a choice for people without abandoning the catholic faith in all schools. I am sorry Annie but are you aware of how very very few multi-denominational schools there are, and even fewer non-denominational. I don’t think there are any schools where religion is not taught by the way. The reality is that in a pluralist society, as tax payers, it is impossible for the vast majority of non-religious parents, or parents who want to see their children educated with children from other backgrounds rather than segregated, to find a school in their own area. That is simply not right.

Don’t even get me started on the Catholic church’s bald faced admission that they seek basically to make children into Catholics – that is just such an abuse. The idea also that children can have no moral compass without religion is also utter rubbish – they learn from the behaviour modelled to them and the religious do not do any better than others in this respect you would have to agree!

G it is cultural but it’s a part of our culture many reject. It’s hypocritical to buy into the commitments and promises expected by the catholic church for a frilly White dress and a party. It gives a terrible message to your child that it’s ok to believe one thing but do another .

All through life we have to believe one thing and do another. I don’t believe I should have to pay the property tax or that cyclists should be allowed on a road without paying road tax but I put up with it. The sooner the child learns how to “roll with the punches” and enjoy your life instead of chasing moral crusades the better for everyone. It’s exactly the message they should be learning if they want to avoid a life of eternal frustration!

Cyclists pay road tax, it’s called income tax. You’re probably confused.

Motorists pay income tax and an additional road tax which is specifically for people using the roads. Cyclists use the roads for free, plenty of them don’t pay income tax either due to age or other circumstances, not confusing at all!

You mean the church that teaches its a sin to be gay Maureen?
The church that would rather millions of kids die of AIDs than use contraception.
The church that still covers up child abuse.
I’ll get my morals elsewhere thanks Maureen.

You are confusing religion with spirituality and humanity. Religion is about control and power. Organised religion is nothing more than patriarchal dictatorship. The catholic church is responsible for an awful lot of evil done in this world throughout the ages.

Maureen

I teach my kids to be nice and kind to others, to not hurt others and to know right from wrong. I haven’t a religious bone in my body.

Maureen Cullen, what if the kids brother, sister, aunt, uncle or even perhaps parents are gay?
The kid then goes to school only to be told that what the family religion is is wrong…..how is that a good thing?

as for your comments that the church did not beat and rape people, nope the church as a whole organization did not….however the people in the church did and the church as a whole organization DID know it was happening and all they did was hide it! How is that a good lesson to teach a kid?

The rape and abuse of kids was known by the church all the way to the Vatican, its is a lie to claim otherwise.