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Dublin: 4 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Column: Why we need career guidance counsellors – and why all the stereotypes are wrong

“The double-jobbing teacher”, “the leaflet pusher” – student guidance counsellor Pamela O’Leary has heard all the stereotypes about her profession but says cuts to the service will hurt vulnerable children most.

Pam O'Leary

IT’S NOT ALL about the CAO.

There has been little media or public interest in the recent Government decision to cut guidance and counselling services from second level schools. This is in sharp contrast to the frequently aired and much publicised condemnation of recent cuts to special needs assistants, language support and traveller support teachers, which unified teachers unions and parents in a rare show of solidarity. It seems fair to derive from this seemingly apathetic response that guidance and counselling has been reduced to the poor relation of frontline services being provided to our sons and daughters.

Minister Ruari Quinn’s decree to subsume the compulsory allocation for guidance and counselling into the general allocation of hours per school means that this coming September, secondary school principals will be forced into a veritable Sophie’s Choice – provide a guidance and counselling service or provide a subject such as Biology. In the points-obsessed education system, you’d find it hard to imagine any other winner than the academic subject.

The real losers here are not the counsellors but the students. I find myself scratching my head in disbelief wondering why more educators and parents have not reacted with vitriol. Why is our profession regarded so negatively?

As a recently qualified guidance counsellor I do feel that the role is fraught with many misconceptions. The most common refrain offered without invitation when I tell people my occupation is “my guidance counsellor was crap”. Usually, the many stereotypes are rattled off – the double jobbing teacher, the unqualified counsellor, the leaflet pusher. When remembering our school days, this misguided vitriol is often kept in reserve for the most undervalued yet vital service provided in our schools.

A lot of this misunderstanding stems from the prescriptive nature of guidance in the past. However, there has been a seismic shift in the delivery of guidance and counselling in our secondary schools because the needs of students in modern Ireland have changed irrevocably. It’s not all about points and the CAO.

I  have taught and counselled students with ADD and ADHD, OCD, Autism, Tourettes Syndrome, students with drug-addicted parents, foster children, students who have been bereaved by suicide, who have anger issues, who are under anti-social behaviour orders, children who bring a wide range of behavioural and emotional problems into the classroom.

They need a dedicated school counsellor to give them a chance in life – and that is under severe threat

Most of these students require learning and behaviour supports. Above all, they need a highly trained, dedicated school counsellor to help give them a chance in life – a chance that, thanks to these short-sighted plans, is now under severe threat.

I work in a disadvantaged DEIS school so perhaps my experiences would be more extreme than your average secondary. However, having spoken to a large number of colleagues across the country in the past few weeks it is very evident that these issues are not confined to disadvantaged areas. Without guidance counsellors to provide the support and direction needed, there is a very real danger of these issues spiralling out of control.

A typical working day for me can involve arranging a scribe or reader for a student with specific learning difficulties to enable him to sit his Junior Cert exam. First I need to get him assessed by an educational psychologist, the next step is to meet and explain the process to the student and their parents, then I let  the relevant teachers know if this has been approved. I also need to follow up on the recommendations of that psychological report, e.g. student needs a laptop, student needs speech and language therapy, student has an underlying anxiety issue that requires immediate counselling. It is the school Guidance Counsellor who facilitates and implements this essential process.

There is also a holistic aspect to the guidance and counselling service. You must assess the students situation from several different angles – their own perspective, their parents, teachers and any outside agencies or professionals. You must involve everyone in the decisions, you must feed back to everyone on the outcome, you must make sure that the recommendations are followed through and that this is all carefully recorded and evaluated on behalf of the school.

So herein lies the problem – who exactly will perform these critical tasks once the guidance counsellor is cut or on reduced hours?  Most of a guidance counsellor’s work comes with a strict confidentiality clause attached due to sensitive information for students and their families.  It is the only free face-to-face counselling service that teenagers can avail of without a referral. It is often the first environment where child abuse is disclosed, or where self harm and suicidal ideation is revealed.

Of course a guidance counsellor does not work alone in providing support services to students; we supplement the work of pastoral care teams, youth workers, social workers, volunteer agencies, industry, colleges, educational programmes such as LCA and LCVP, the TY year, mentoring, psychologists, speech and language therapists and the gardai.

Despite all this, despite the intensive, wide-ranging service provided by highly trained counsellors, the current government would have us believe that academic teachers can simply fill in the gaps left after the termination of the guidance and  counselling profession. This is not only infeasible, it is foolhardy and inherently dangerous.

I doubt that anyone would deny that there is room for improvement in our profession and I would be fully supportive of reform in the way it is delivered in schools to maintain efficiency and relevance.

Instead of being given that opportunity, around 800 guidance counsellors and more importantly, countless more students all over Ireland face a bleak and unsupported future.

Pamela O’Leary is a guidance counsellor and member of the Cork branch of the Institute of Guidance Counsellors.

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Comments (51 Comments)

  • Mr G 15/01/12 #

    My guidance councilor told me 13 years ago that computers were a fad dont be silly doing a computer course thank god I did not listen to her. Now own my own computer solutions business

    Reply
  • From my experience the main problem with guidance counsellors is they don’t know the students well enough to give us advice, and thats why we get such off the wall information.

    Reply
  • I attended school with a chap who after several sessions with the C G teacher was told he would not amount to much and was likely to cause pain and suffering to his community unless he changed his ways.indeed he was told he would probably end up behind bars.
    She was right he is a bond trader in London

    Reply
    • For every few hundred brilliant teachers, there’s one who will drag down the good name of the profession. It’s easier to recall the negative stories, let’s fact it they’re far more interesting…! Such a pity the good teachers are lumped in with the bad.

      Reply
    • There’s isn’t a system in Ireland to remove bad teachers from the profession. So a lot of bad teachers get lumped with non-teaching rolls – career guidance.

      I’ve some horror stories from CG too from my old school. A horrible little man.

      I think private industry is best placed to educate students on career opportunities in different industries. But ultimately it’s the universities that should be doing the CG as its their future customers.

      On that note, the possibility of a US style start to 3rd level might be better. The first 3 semesters or so spent studying a broad range of areas and then the student doing a major in what you’re interested in. The idea that a 17 year old know what they want to do isn’t realistic.

      Reply
  • The bread and butter work of guidance counsellors is to help people (students, parents) to make educational and career choices. If they do that well for all students choosing subjects for senior cycle, and for school leavers entering apprenticeships, further and higher education, and work (where such exists!), then they pay their own salaries and save money for individuals, their families and for taxpayers and employers. Research has shown that poor, insufficient, and absent career guidance in schools is a significant cause of drop out in further and higher education. The cost of such drop out for taxpayers (does not include costs to individuals and families) in Ireland in the late 1990s was about 50 million euro per annum. The current ex-quota career guidance posts in schools costs 32 million euro. So Ruari Quinn does well on short-term annual savings which will look well on his CV for an EU Commissioner post. But he does very poor on long-term annual savings in Ireland to individuals, families, employers and tax payers. Bring back Niamh Breathnach, a proper Labour minister and worthy Labour party representative! Join Fine Gael, Ruari…they are better on short term savings. Let’s privatise career guidance in schools and see where the real new Labour party is…let it show its true colours. Finally for all those complaining of the careers service they received in school, you have my sympathy…there are bad school principals and vice principals, bad maths teachers, bad English teachers, boring teachers, and to have some inept guidance counsellors is not a surprise but is unfortunate. A school of 500 students at present has just one guidance counsellor but has several Maths and English and Irish teachers so there will always be some choice among these (what if such a sized school had only 1 Maths teacher? How often would each student see them a year?!!!). But from Sept 2012, many students will have no choice of guidance counsellor unless they can pay privately for it. Roll on New Labour and privatisation!!!

    Reply
  • My guidance counsellor was crap! Had to fight to be allowed go to Trinity open day as guidance counsellor said none of us would get the points, 500+ points were got, no thanks to her!

    Reply
    • Similar at our school. They rented a 30 seated mini bus to go to the UCD open day, there was 200 in our year.

      One friend of mine when asked in the class that he wanted to go to the open day, that he wanted to go to college.

      The CG teacher replied, seriously. “UCD is a university and your family isn’t the type that go to university”.

      Reply
  • Not convinced for the need of Guidance Councillors by this article.
    However, I do think it would be great if schools taught life skills such as how to budget, how to vote, how to deal with emotions, how to maintain good self-esteem and subjects such as coping strategies, civics, ethics.
    While I enjoy mathematics, I know that better coping mechanisms would have been much more beneficial to me in my twenties than knowing calculus.

    Reply
    • Your point is a valid one, but my parents took the role of teaching me how to deal with my emotions. Is it a schools role to be substitute parent as well as teaching the exam subjects?

      Voting is covered by civics, (or whatever it is called these days) and there was budgetting in home ec, business studies and in economics.

      Always tough to cut budgets in schools, and it is the ‘soft’ subjects who will feel it first. Hard times, hard measures.

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    • Fair enough on the civics == teaching how to vote.
      Not everyone has as stable an upbringing as you must have had. Mine was quite dysfunctional.
      My point is that the education system is not fit for purpose….. of course it depends what the purpose is.
      If it is meant to prepare people for work, than why does it not encourage critical thinking & creativity? Why is there no programming in second level?
      If it is to make happier, more responsible citizens than why does it not teach you how to be happy and debate what it is to be responsible? Provide you tools to use when things aren’t going well for you?
      Instead the education system encourages you to memories lots of stuff. Some people are good at that – some not so good, I found since that I am good at that, but that I need quite and a space of my own to study. I didn’t have that between the ages of 10 years old and 15 years old when I left school.
      I think society would be better served by trying to make more thoughtful citizens….. far too idealistic I know.

      Reply
    • Totally agree Gordon. If I keep my job I plan to incorporate a lot more of those types of classes especially to junior cycle students. So much of guidance was traditionally focused on academia..points, CAO, assessment but you are correct when you state that schools need to teach life skills. A huge area of interest for me is nutrition for well being. There are a large number of overweight children in Ireland presenting with symptoms of malnutrition in doctors surgeries which is shocking. Another is the economics of staying in education. I talk to students in terms of money what staying in education could mean for them. My favourite class is one called 21st century family..a series of classes that deals with what family means to students and the changes that have happened in our society e.g, blended families, adoption, separation and divorce, change in financial circumstances etc

      Reply
    • Sounds like an interesting class.
      Having spent 10 years in and out of psychiatric hospital – I have watched the bubble from the sidelines and wondered what the hell was the point of it all. What is everyone chasing. I still wonder that in the crash, but I imagine I’m in better company.
      It seems to me that schools gear kids for the rat-race. If you fail early in that race you are pretty much written off as collateral damage. It’s so antiquated!
      To be honest, I’m not 100% sure what a Guidance Councillor’s job is, and the article didn’t really make it any clearer. If you manage to impart some life-enhancing skills that will stick with the students throughout their lives, then there aren’t enough of you. Our suicide epidemic could be considerably reduced by imparting better strategies for life.

      Reply
    • It’s hard to quantify because so much depends on the type of school you work in and the needs of your students. I worked in a higher achieving school but to be honest it wasn’t for me as the students invariably had their lives mapped out for them by their parents. I now work in a DEIS school in a socially disadvantaged area. I have 180 students that have a wide variety of ‘exclusion’ issues e.g. Travelling community, special needs, have been in care, financial hardship etc. My style of guidance is the prevention of early school leaving and giving them a positive experience of education through various methods..one to one counselling, group counselling, educational access schemes which run summer camps, competitions and enrichment programme in maths and science. I will help the students imagine their future, plan it and get them the supports they deserve whether they be financial or learning supports. Most of the time it’s self esteem that prevents students from progressing on to third level (if third level is what they want, if not it’s a work placement) i love my job. I truly do and would probably do it voluntarily were it not for the very expensive toddler that needs new shoes once a month! :)

      Reply
    • Sounds like you go above and beyond your job description.
      Probably hard to quantify because it’s invaluable. :)

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    • I remember a few months before my Leaving Cert. our class was given an aptitude test, broken down into mechanical reasoning, spatial awareness etc., and were each scheduled to meet with a career guidance councillor to discuss the results afterwards. During the exam the guy sitting beside me kept asking me for answers, with which I obliged. I was told based on my results that I should be a mathematician or an artist, even though I can neither draw nor calculate a tip, but I’ve often wondered if Fintan was told the same. The point being that the Irish education system teaches you to get a good grade in an exam above all else, even if it is an exam where getting a good grade, rather than an accurate one, makes the exam entirely pointless!
      It’s easy to teach kids that there is one answer to every question, and that this is it, and if you know that answer your life will be good and you will succeed, but more often than not this approach leaves kids uninspired, disinterested and cynical. Information is easily accessed now a days by those that are interested, the trouble is getting them interested.

      Reply
  • I think many commentators seem to be missing the point of the article. Again we have more anectodal “my guidance counsellor was crap” stories. Modern education is moving towards addressing mental health and various other supports for kids. For example the sex education my daughter received recently in 6th class was more comprehensive and open than anything I ever experienced in the eighties. Things have changed and modern schools now want to address issues facing their pupils. I think the focus now is on counselling than simply career guidance. My daughter will be attending secondary school later this year and I want to know that the right support is there if she or indeed we should need it.

    Reply
    • Access to counselling is important in Ireland, where so many young lads are self harming. If the guidance counsellors these days are providing support to vulnerable people, then I’m all for it. However, I thought – until now – that their role was to provide career advice and they have been terrible are this aspect of the job. I guess if they improve career guidance for the masses, funding their service for vulnerable individuals would enjoy greater public support.

      Reply
  • This really is so disillusioning. I applaud Pam on a well written article and the attempt to highlight our role. We have been doing the same locally and nationally. As a guidance counsellor it truely has been an eye-opener to see how poor a profile we have, but the simple fact is that we are all way too busy to be raising it and it seems that people within our system and outside aren’t too bothered either. Our Unions are a disgrace and have left us out on a limb to fight our own battle. What a waste our union subs have been!
    At the centre of this is next September when the 1st years face difficulty, when any students faces personal difficulty or crisis, when students make incorrect subject choices or have difficulty with study, when students start to tune out of education, when 6th years attempt to make “unimformed” decisions about their futures, attempt to get a reference for UCAS or have questions about HEAR/DARE….etc …etc…they will knock on the door and it will remain unanswered. Who will pick up the flack?

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  • It’s called Trade Unionism Miss Tree. The good teachers being members of such organisations protect their incompetent union mates from being held accountable for their under-performance. It could be argued that the good teachers are doing so out of their own pockets as collective bargaining ensures salary scales based on seniority rather than ability or performance: hence we can have brilliant teachers with 5 years experience being paid less than incompetent ones who have totally disengaged from the classroom and are just waiting out the last few years til they can draw their pension.

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  • We had a full time guidance councillor in my school, in 4th year we had to do an assessment, I was out of school the day it was on so did it the following month. Everybody got their results after about a month, I didn’t get mine until the end of 5th year! Same woman had a meeting with each of us individually about our CAO choices, I told her mine and my reasons and she told me I didn’t put enough thought into mine. She also told me I wouldn’t get the points for them based on my own on the spot very conservative predictions for my points (got much higher, just had to give some guesses on the spot as to my individual grades) while giving no consideration for the grades I’d actually gotten all, even though I had told her it was a safe guess and I was aiming for much higher and if I didn’t do well I had plenty of choices lower down to take into account that eventuality. Had another meeting a few months later with the exact same CAO choices and reasons and she said they were good choices and good reasons and that was that!

    Reply
  • We should never have adopted the Prussian method of education. This method of education comprises of learning subjects by rote and regurgitating facts for examinations which are used to determine suitability for roles within the labour force. That was the precise reason for its adoption into educational systems, and was the initial difference between private and public education. Those at private schools were taught using the Trivium and Quadrivium – which form the basis for critical thought, and the ability to think for oneself. Possibly why many of those in power come from private educational backgrounds – it used to be all.

    Our education system doesn’t teach us how to form systematic, logical thoughts – nor to communicate them. It does not teach us to think for ourselves, it just teaches us what to think. This leaves us asking for what are essentially classes in common sense (like health and safety – I can’t believe they have to teach that!) because our ability to figure it out alone is diminished by the way we have been taught.

    The Trivium and Quadrivium are also easier to teach, and can facilitate larger classes as the classes who have progressed through one stage can be used to teach the next group and vice versa. (eg, the trivium is made up of grammar then logic then rhetoric – the logic class can help the grammar class while simultaneously gaining better understanding of grammar, the rhetoric class can help the logic class and vice versa – the best way to learn is to teach)
    But this creates free and independent thinkers, it teaches each of us how to filter out illogical and spurious conclusions. This does not bode well for the ruling classes, and is why the Prussian system was adopted to start with.

    http://triviumeducation.com/texts/TRIVIUM_2_25_2010.doc

    Reply
    • Thanks for the links.
      Seem a bit conspiratorial, but it’s interesting weather (true or not)

      Reply
    • You should possibly consider that this system was adopted back in the days of gentry and very apparent classism. It is not a recent move.

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    • Fair point.
      It is interesting…. I’ll probably be looking into this for a long time :)

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    • Wow…. actually great stuff. Things I’ve been musing about myself!
      Listening to a John Taylor Gatto: Schooling is not Education: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI&feature=related

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    • No problem man :) been learning a lot about it myself over the past year, and you keep learning (after all – life is a learning experience!)

      It certainly does change the way you think, my English teacher at school encouraged us to think for ourselves but he was the only teacher who did. Nowadays I spot the weasel wording and small print and fallacies everywhere.. It’s rather scary how much twaddle we get faced with every day..

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    • I agree with what you’re saying however you also have students where they actually disengage when asked to think for themselves. They prefer rote learning. Come in, do the job and leave. You can’t say one education system is better than another when there are so many variables to consider. Do you have an individualised education system where students don’t engage in groups or do you have group work with little or no individual learning? In my opinion you need the best of everything and for that you need money. You can have theories about education coming out of your arse but you need the money, the teachers and the management to put it all in place. Tricky combination to get in place

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    • @ Ian.. Perhaps you didn’t truly grasp an understanding of this method of education. This forms the basis for systematic critical thought – which forms the basis for learning.

      It’s taught in a group and the group do some of the teaching themselves. The literacy rates when this method of education was in place were far better than what they are today, because no one got left behind once they had a sound, systematic platform from which to grasp knowledge.

      We learn by rote. We do not learn how to spot poor logic or false rhetoric. So we are at the mercy of whatever is printed in those books. History books are littered with fallacies and false rhetoric. My junior cert geography book said that Sugarloaf is a dormant volcano which is a flat out lie!

      But to question the holy textbook.. That doesn’t score points with the teacher.. I was taught a lot of nonsense at school that I had to re learn once I left. I took nothing of value from school bar the inspiration from my English teacher (who was obviously a trivium fan) to THINK. Like he said, he wasn’t there to train parrots.

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  • Great comments pro guidance and some legitimate ones against. I agree that there are lots who have tainted our profession, by this I mean bad guidance counsellors, I have heard all of the negative commentary and know that there is a major lack of support. I have only been doing this job for over a year, but my goodness am I busy! For example I spent the entire weekend helping students to send their UCAS apps off, I did this in my own time via email and phone calls. On a day to day routine my job consists of a mixture of one to one career meetings, I feel that I do know my students very well and help them to achieve their best potential. I also get referrals from the home school co-ordinator, year heads, teachers etc for counselling and other related issues. I feel that if this valuable service is lost there will be so much confusion, as Niamh Dwyer just said, who will help the kids with HEAR and DARE, CAO, UCAS, college open days, outside referrals, PLCs etc etc, the list is endless. Teachers and vice principals cannot just pick of the flack, they are disciplinarians, students do not feel that they can go them about problems, some teachers are great but the problem exists in the fact that they dont have time to take the issue further, whereas GCs do.
    I dread to see schools next September…..

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  • Firstly to say congratulations Pam on a great and insightful article!

    Let me continue by saying that I will be the first to admit that there are ineffective individuals in the profession (just like any other), and this is coming from a Guidance Counsellor. Not only that, but my own GC was less than effective also so I get the point!! What I do not get however, is that we all get tarred with the same brush!! I have attended many ineffective doctors, dentists etc. Does this mean that we should abolish their profession??

    I experience firsthand on a frequent basis the disdain for teachers in this country and I agree with a lot of the criticisms…but this is not the point of the issue!!! The point is that yet again, the voiceless and vulnerable have been targetted through no fault of their own and used as scapegoats as we hear as per ‘cuts have to be made’. This is a cop out as there is in effect a whole layer of care being withdrawn from the students. Fair enough a lot of families deal with personal problems and crises from within and rightly so…but in the cases where for whatever reason an adolescent does not feel comfortable confiding in their nearest and dearest…the GC is often the person they turn to….I for one give my students access to as many appointments as they need and have seen the same student as many as 12 times in the same academic year due to lack of HSE services..and this is the reality….

    The traditional role of the GC has changed markedly…even the title has changed…and why should students be deprived of something that they need?something that can save lives? I had 5 students approach me last year in relation to serious thoughts of taking their own lives…all 5 are still here…would this be the case if they had nowhere to turn? I am not proclaiming my brilliance…I am merely stating a fact….a fact that is reality in many many other schools but which is kept under wraps due to confidentiality issues…people should not be so quick to judge what they do not understand……..

    Reply
    • See.. If we were trivium educated most people would spot the big gaping “guilt by association” fallacy that they are guilty if when condemning the many because of the few. They would see that it is poor logic.

      They would (and thankfully most now do) notice that government justification for these sorts of cuts is littered with false rhetoric and fallacy.. A trivium educated populace would never stand for this.

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  • Great article Pam. I find it atrocious that schools are being forced to make this choice. Unfortunately, career guidance and counselling is going to be the loser, and ultimately the students. I didn’t have a great career guidance experience myself, but thats not to say I dont think it is/should be a hugely important part of schooling in this country and everywhere. How many thousands of young people end up in jobs that make them miserable? And how does that in turn affect their quality of life. If anything the DoE should be putting more resources into this undervalued field and putting more emohasis on appropriate career choices for young adults. That said the bad guidance counsellors do need to be weeded out but that wont happen with the unions! (Afterthought) Does this create a private market opportunity for career guidance counsellors who could affiliate themselves with schools? Will parents think of career guidance as important enough to warrant the extra expense, thus creating a demand for more private career guidance counsellors?

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  • Filling out my CAO the past few days with my career guidance and she was actually worried about her job! We need them in these times, students generally don’t know what to be doing!

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  • Yes. I know there are people in my profession who may have not been good at their jobs the same can be said for evey single profession. I once went to a terrible doctor but I found another one who is very good. The government is implying that others may be able to do this job (chaplains, teachers) and I would refute this strongly. You MUST be accredited to be a guidance counsellor and have a professional MA or Hdip from a University. You must also do your training in a school and do intensive counselling training. You must be registered with the teaching council. You must have Garda clearance. You must have professional supervision if you are counselling students. I work with students in a very disadvantaged area the majority of whom have special educational and behavioural needs. You CANNOT do this job without specialist training and it worries me greatly that there may be ad hoc guidance or none at all. By the way, those who can afford it will still get private guidance. The kicker is that this is the only free face to face service that a school going teenager has.Again, I am sorry that many of you didn’t get the guidance you deserved but there are others out there who are and it is about to be taken away.

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    • In other jobs (non-union), when people aren’t good at their job they #1 Might not keep their job, getting the sack. #2 Performance review, probably won’t get any salary increase. #3 If like a doctor, people have choice and pick anther doctor, eventually putting the bad one out of business.

      There is a reason in this country so many parents pay for out of hours grinds and weekend grind schools at the cost of thousands going to good teachers (please find me one who pays tax on this). But for many this isn’t an option, and their education suffers.

      I do hope that Ireland follows the UK lead on the ability of being able to sack bad teachers.

      Good teachers need to join together to rally against the unions at 2nd level who are holding back good teachers as the protect poor teachers and their job plus salary.

      We have an excellent primary school education system in this country, but 2nd level can be hit and miss. It ain’t easy teaching a bunch of teenagers, all the more reason we need to remove bad teachers.

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    • From doing my teacher training in the UK I have witnessed how corrupt OFSTED is. It puts teachers under so much pressure. Do you want teachers to teach or fill out lesson plans. Apparently the filling out of lesson plans is vital to the learning experience. Make sure you have a starter and plenary for every lesson. Entertain the children. They don’t need to do hard work!!!!! If they, the children, don’t get the results they should it’s your fault, not the fact that the child did absolutely no fecking work. While I understand we need to get rid of the bad teachers we also need to support the teachers who do mountains of work. From my observations in the UK you will have teachers caring about themselves and the results they get rather than the education students are getting. Education is not about rote learning or critical thinking or whatever, it’s about allowing students to enjoy their time in education and support them when shit hits the fan for whatever reason and about installing a sense of worth and a hard work ethic. Top students will rise to the top no matter what. We need to catch that middle group who just float by and give bottom students the skills to be able to provide for themselves and respect themselves.

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  • In my school the career guidance teacher is utter shit. He talks to the class as a whole and does not help individuals

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  • Trade Unionism or the odd leaflet pusher in the past are completely irrelevant to both the utterly vulnerable student described above or the less vulnerable student trying to figure out their future. These are the domain of the modern career counsellor. There is as much difference between career guidance teachers of 25 years ago and now and the computers of 25 years ago and now. The world they address and the nature of their intervention has changed completely.

    800 guidance counsellors have been removed from allocation. Even if you are against them, the current situation forces a lot of schools to choose between them and, e.g., a science teacher. So the move puts Science under threat particularly in schools under particular pressure. Have you thought about it like that?

    Meanwhile, over 100 religious chaplains are protected in upholding the faith, while schools make the Sophie’s Choice between career counsellors and other teachers. Have you thought of it like that?

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  • They are complete waste of money, and time. Give their suggestions on a ‘tick the boxes’ basis, as someone else said (a student I gather) the don’t know the students.

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  • Any guidance councillor whom iv been to has been crap. At one point I was told doing this course would Be useless as I’d get nowhere and another one told me I’d never be good at anything. We don’t need them at all .

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  • ‘they’ don’t know the students.

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  • Before you comment please consider your reason for doing so. The real reason. Are you the person that jumps on the band wagon every time someone mentions the teaching profession? No occupational group is without fault. We can and should only focus on the positives. There is enough negativity in this country today.

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  • “In the points-obsessed education system, you’d find it hard to imagine any other winner than the academic subject.”

    In ANY education system I’d find it hard to imagine an entire subject, an entire area of human knowledge, being dropped in favour of a rather vague role. I don’t think the points system has much to do with it – try to imagine the board meeting that would decide that one: “No, we’re not doing Physics any more, we’re going to get a full-time guidance counsellor instead”.

    That said, there is always a need for broader life education and a more (forgive me) holistic tack in schools, I’m just not convinced that a full-time position is more essential than (say) German or History.

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  • Sadly the unions would rather insure that there is no change in wages and negotiate the savings in keeping these staff. Where were the councillors demanding better training, striking to get this and asking for performance reviews to see if they were up to scratch and not defending the poor ones. If Irish were not compulsory there would be a lot less teachers and parents view would be the same – which gets their kids a place in college. Its time that religion was put outside class time and students could only take subjects that are not for points but are needed for their future career…

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  • Bah

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  • I have to say the guidance councillor in my school was one of the most useless human beings to ever grace a class room… She spent 30 minutes with me at the end of third year telling me how I should persue a career in biology… After she was finished I told her I had dropped all science subject in 2nd year in favour of business subjects which I excelled at and loved…. Never entertained the twat again… The education system in this country is a farce… I know a teacher in a school in county wicklow who has taught honours Irish and he doesnt even speak the language…. I could point numerous other instance including a bus driver with no third level education at all who drove a bus for the mentally disabled. He switched jobs to teach maths, english, irish and business studies in a second level school… These arent anecdotes, I know these people…. God help any child in the todays education system in Ireland….

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