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Column: Why are the Irish so apathetic about antisocial behaviour?

Posed by models.
Posed by models.
Image: John Birdsall/John Birdsall/Press Association Images

Clare Kleinedler is a freelance journalist and American ex-pat who relocated to Drogheda from Los Angeles last year. She writes a blog about her experiences in the country that has become her new home. This week she asks the question; why are we so accepting of antisocial behaviour?

FOR THE MOST PART, I really enjoy living in Ireland and I think I make that relatively clear in this blog. But there are days – and today is one of those days – where I really hate certain things about living here. Yes, I used the “h” word.

Since I try to be honest about my experience here I feel I should share the reasons why. This morning Mountaineering Man and I awoke to find a window had been smashed in his apartment building; apparently some jerkface kids in the neighborhood think it’s funny to throw rocks at windows until they shatter into a million pieces all over the sidewalk below. The window wasn’t MM’s, but rather one that looks out from the inside stairwell. There are several apartment blocks in his area that have numerous smashed communal windows, likely by the same culprits.

I’ve been seeing a lot of these moronic kids lately. Last Saturday night, as MM and his friend and I sat in a local pub, a group of four tween girls walked into the bar. Though they kept near the entrance, they loudly jeered at the barman from across the room.

“We were here last night,” one said, grinding her hips provocatively. “Last night, we were 18 years old here!”

The barman yelled for them to get out, but she kept going.

“But last night I was 18, don’t you remember?” she teased. Finally as the barman made his way toward them, they walked out. However, they stood outside, looking in from the street, taunting the barman with a variety of obscene hand gestures.

A few minutes later, two garda walked by. I felt some relief; though they were mere kids, several more had joined the girls and now they were a group of 8 or so. As the garda walked past, the girls mocked them and getting all up in their business, so to speak. One even lifted up her shirt to reveal her bra, thrusting her chest very close to one of the guards.

What did they do? Nothing. The guards laughed and kept walking, even though the girls followed them at least half-way down the street, hurling insults the whole way. They were about as effective as American mall security guards in that situation. Wait, scratch that. Mall security guards would have at least asked them to leave or rang the real police for that type of disruptive behavior. The kids in this scenario continued to harass every patron that passed them to enter the bar until finally the barman’s girlfriend went outside and gave them orders to get away or else she would ring some garda who would actually do something. I admired her for taking a stand.

That type of enforcement is incredibly rare around here. I don’t know what came first: Irish people’s indifference and general apathy or the sheer unresponsiveness of those in charge. Though this is the second window that’s been broken in MM’s apartment building in the last month, the building management hasn’t done sh*t about it (and the tenants pay a heft “management” fee annually for their services, or lack thereof). And while MM did ring and talk to someone at the management company, I’m not sure if anyone else in the building has done anything similar. People are surely fed up, but it seems their attitude is, “Ah nothing will be done about it anyway.” Call me typically American but what does it take for people to band together and demand change? Moreover, what does it take for those in charge to actually do their jobs?

I’m certainly not the poster child for American nationalism – the U.S. has its own share of problems. But I will say this: Americans generally have a D.I.Y. attitude, and we’re firm believers in the idea that each of us needs to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. No one else is going to do it for us. I really wish I saw more of this in Ireland instead of the incredible ennui that seems to be the norm here. Needless to say I’m not referring to the entire population – I am only going on what I’ve seen so far.

In any case, tomorrow is a new day and I’m sure I’ll have a new attitude. But today I just had to vent. Thanks for reading.

Read more by Clare Kleinedler on her blog: anamericaninireland.com >

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Comments (75 Comments)

  • Brendan Buck 05/05/11 #
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    What we obviously need is a team of US assassins to enter our country and to address the situation.

    Reply
  • John Muck 05/05/11 #
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    Meh.

    Reply
  • Terry Turner 05/05/11 #
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    Surely the worse aspect of this tale is the indifference of the gardai. If the person in the street sees the gardai doing nothing, they are bound to feel that passivity is the norm.

    Reply
  • Bob Go 05/05/11 #
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    We have a word for it. Its not terribly good and its not terribly bad, its grand. the kids sitting on the steps drinking , ah sure its grand. The ferrel teenagers taunting the guards, sure there only having fun , its grand.

    Reply
  • BeeForBattens 05/05/11 #
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    great article!

    Reply
  • Ronan McDonnell 05/05/11 #
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    Drinking creates jobs in the alcohol industry. These days anything can be excused if it creates jobs. You don’t want us to NOT create jobs do you? And deprive young people of their social outlet too? If they don’t hurl abuse at random, then who will? And where will we be then?

    Reply
  • Adam Beere 05/05/11 #
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    In my opinion, this all generally roots from lack of morale.

    In America, morale and apathy is taught to everyone at a young age, using vehicles from well structured and organized community games and events to reciting the pledge of allegiance before classes start.

    My of us observers looking in on the US see this as propaganda, but I think it is one of the core reasons behind the country and its peoples continued success.

    Reply
  • Ciaran McGrath 05/05/11 #
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    This kind of behaviour is only going to get worse as the economic situation continues. We have a large population of young people with nothing to do and little prospects for the future. Already, town and city centres across the country are no-go areas on a Saturday afternoon for civilised people. The Gardai are largely powerless to deal with these brats so they don’t bother.

    Reply
  • JimBob Hillbill 05/05/11 #
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    I agree that the American way would be much better. Those teenagers should be locked up in Juvenile hall until they turn 18. Then send them out on to the streets with no education and no chance of a future. Definitely the way to go, afterall we all know that there are no problems with social integration in the US. It is a shining beacon that all other countries should aspire. I mean the US has imprisoned a higher percentage of its population than any other civilisation in history, they must be doing something right!

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    • John 05/05/11 #
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      @JimBOB
      It doesn’t matter what the US does, thats like Shane McGowan saying he didn’t have an alcohol problem as George Best drank more than him.
      Stop trying to draw attention away from the issue, we have an anti-social behaviour problem, it may not be as bad as the USA’s but we still have one and it needs to be tackled before it takes hold

    • JimBob Hillbill 05/05/11 #
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      No doubt about that John, but the author suggests that we could learn a couple of things from the US in this regard, which is blatantly wrong.

      Great analogy btw.

    • John 05/05/11 #
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      Sorry thought you were trying to make an excuse for anti-social behaviour

  • Thomas 05/05/11 #
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    You live

    Reply
  • Thomas 05/05/11 #
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    You live in Drogheda in fairness.

    Reply
  • Clare Kleinedler 05/05/11 #
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    I’m not saying the U.S. way is THE way to do things (I think I clearly state this in the piece), I’m merely commenting on what I’ve observed here. While US police can be OTT with force (I can just visualize a cop butting that jeering teen in the head, not the right solution either) I think there is at least some healthy fear of authority. I was shocked to see how poorly the gardai are treated here, but then again they do not command any respect either.

    BTW Thomas, this all went down in the Big Smoke, not Drogheda!

    Reply
    • Dave Finn 05/05/11 #
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      Great article, and you really have got the problem in one. The Irish whinge and moan, and make sarcastic smart remarks on internet fora. Bar that, collectively, we do nothing to change it. We are nearly all guilty of it. Alan shatter should get on this right away and ensure that little brats acting the maggot is punishable and is enforced.

    • Elpenor Dignam 09/05/11 #
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      No disrespect to David Robert Grimes however he’s talking through his arse – anecdotal evidence is reality when you’re watching teens chucking bricks through windows and laughing at the police. I’m with Clare on this one, there is a middle ground between a police state and anarchy and we’ve being sliding towards the latter for far too long, go into any town on a Saturday night and you’ll see what I mean. This needs to begin with the police themselves, morale is very low and when morale is low so too is discipline, which leads to the type of shoddy, lacklustre policing many of us have experienced. I don’t believe certain sections of the media have helped by continually ridiculing these people. That said we have a new Commissioner Martin Callinan in post since December and he needs to be given some time to establish himself however, if we don’t begin to see visible improvements (anecdotal evidence, not statistics) within eighteen months, then he needs to go. “Brano Five Teams” in every large town to sort out public order offences, would be a good start. Remember police are not social workers that’s not their role, they’re there to ensure the citizens of this country can go about their daily lives without fear or intimidation from thugs or criminals, be they male or female. “To Protect and Serve” is the LAPD police motto, perhaps that ought to be adopted by An Garda Síochána.

  • John 05/05/11 #
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    Let’s not be so quick to blame the gardai, if the gardai arrested these children, one of the new wacko groups that are springing up will complain about it along the lines of making children criminals and they were only having a bit of “craic”.

    In fact it’s a common complaint I hear, that when gardai interfere with people having a bit of “craic” which can involve any form of anti-social behaviour, they are subjected to abuse

    So,the first question that needs to be asked is who owns these children, because everyone complains about them but no one seems to know who the parents are. Its the duty of every parent to ensure their child does not engage in this type of behaviour by teaching them right from wrong.

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  • Report this comment

    Actually Clare, it is lazy and unfair to resort to the classical fallacy of extrapolating from limited anecdotal evidence. There are plenty of dodgy places in Ireland, with high crime rate, high unemployment and poor standards of education. Drogheda is one, and there are plenty in the city. You came across antisocial teenagers, who technically though a nuisance were not breaking the law. There behavior was however antisocial and they could have been moved on my Gardai if any of you had complained. It is more than likely the Guards in question, far from being apathetic, knew the girls. They would have also known that the worst they could do was bring them home. However, if the parents don’t care, and it is likely they don’t, what would that achieve ? It’s a shame, but in these cases the apples dont tend to fall far from the tree. If the teen have an appalling antisocial attitude it’s a good bet they didn’t lick it off the stones. Guards in Ireland tend to know their beat fairly well, particularly known troublemakers.

    Any whether you meant it or not, your piece was actually not only lazy but rather insulting. There are plenty of things wrong with the Irish cultural psyche, but your conclusions are not supported by any data. You’re from LA – Last time I was there, I had a weapon pulled on me in South Central. My friend’s car was broken into near Venice beach. Do I assume this is an American cultural problem ? No. It is a consequence of poverty and poor education begetting crime and antisocial attitudes in certain areas. Not an American one. Not an Irish one. It’s the same world wide. I cannot extrapolate from my conclusions and assume that all of the US is violent. It is not. Some areas are. But this is precisely what you have done.

    And also, I should point out that America tops the list for violent and anti social crime in a first world country. Are you suggesting we should take this as an example ? Your view of your home country is rather rose tinted but the facts get in the way of that view. Ireland is quite low on the violent crime index and I for one would be very unhappy with our cops becoming more like American ones. Our gardai standards are very high and I have no interest in fostering a fear culture.

    Reply
    • JimBob Hillbill 05/05/11 #
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      Fantastic analysis David. Spot on with every point.

      Who is the journalist here again?

    • Dave Finn 05/05/11 #
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      David, i agree with you also in large measure. But, we do have a problem with anti social behaviour, that even though also common in other countries, i would still like us to try and deal with, whatever the size of the country. We dont take it well when others criticize us, understandably, but i do think it important to listen. If the author thinks, you can be sure other foreign residents and visitors think so too. I’d prefer we didnt send out that message to the rest of the world.

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      Dave, you have a good point. There are elements of the Irish cultural psyche which are appalling – for example, our binge drinking and refusual to accept that we have a problem (I wrote a little about this ages ago on my own blog in regards to date rape drugs if you’re interested, though it’s fairly wordy! You’ll find it at http://3menmakeatiger.blogspot.com/2011/01/hard-pill-to-swallow-irish-youth-date.html)

      What my main issue with is pidgeon holing – to make a sweeping statement, you require data for that statement. To make a comparison, as the author does, you must compare like with like. The data on anti social and violent crime is easily searchable (the US is very good at this, and for Ireland at http://www.cso.ie/statistics/crimeandjustice.htm). I dislike people using their personal experience in one part of a country to assume the entire country is that way. I’m sure the author wouldn’t like if I had a bad experience in Alabama and assumed all Americans are that way. In any case, the data doesn’t really back up the author’s statement.

    • Report this comment

      I agree Dave, We certainly do have major antisocial problems – I think binge drinking is one of our biggest, and the collective failure to admit it is a dreadful failing. I wrote a bit about this before regarding date rape drugs… be forewared, it’s kind of wordy! ( http://3menmakeatiger.blogspot.com/2011/01/hard-pill-to-swallow-irish-youth-date.html )

      My gripe with the author is you cannot extrapolate from limited personal experience the attitude of an entire country. That requires more nuanced research. Luckily, the data is there. The US has very easily acquired and indexed crime figures, and the Irish ones are available at http://www.cso.ie/statistics/crimeandjustice.htm

      Perhaps it’s a facet of my scientific attitude, but I feel a sweeping generalisation requires data to support it. Comparisons must compare like with like. I’m sure the author would not like if I assumed the typical California resident was the same as the typical Alabama resident. The data would not support such a conclusion.

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      Gah… Apologies about multiple posting !!

    • Jo Carmody 05/05/11 #
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      Even though I wholeheartedly agree and applaud you for the most part, I do believe that the gardaí in this particular instance behaved quite inadequately, much the same as they behave in most parts of the country. It’s very true that they would be able to do nothing more than bring the girls home or give them a warning, but simply ignoring them really doesn’t send out the right message.

      Of course, the American model is not the gold standard, far from it. Clare, you seem to be labouring under the quite false impression that the American system has a much more effective way of dealing with things. As we seem to be in the business of gross generalisations, those teenagers, had they been in America, would probably have been armed.

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      Well said david

  • Barry R. 05/05/11 #
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    The reason the problem exists is that we are still the nation of uncultured peasants that we have always been.

    Until we learn pride and respect in our state, our flag, our community, our institutions, our fellow citizens and most of all ourselves.

    The way we allow anti social behaviour simply isn’t tolerated anywhere in the civilised world.

    It was predictable also that the messenger would be attacked rather than the message in this story

    Roll on the 400 thumbsdown !

    Reply
  • neuromancer 05/05/11 #
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    When I was growing up there was a fear of elders and a fear of the Gardai. Today’s teenagers and kids have no respect for their elders, and they laugh at the Gardai.

    The law isn’t strict enough for minors, and do the parents should be death the blow because the kids won’t. Fine the parents and you would see the kids change face.

    Reply
  • Robert Nugent 05/05/11 #
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    There are areas in the US far worse than ireland. Key to avoid asb is not live in those neighbourhoods

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  • Nigel Kenny 05/05/11 #
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    I agree with a lot of stuff said in this article, we are losing the streets to brats that have no respect or manners for anyone. Despite what some people here say, this is not just a problem for a few “dodgy areas”. This is widespread and can be seen in any town or city i’ve ever visited in Ireland at least. Shame we can’t take some healthy criticism from a foreigner without getting our backs up, we might actually get off our arses and sort the problem if we did.

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    • Report this comment

      Jeez he was rough with her she wasnt even running from him looked like she didnt know he was even there ( he may have called her sound wasnt great) but even if he did and she still kept going there was no need for that

    • Shane Coppinger 05/05/11 #
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      that’s not what she’s calling for. The guards maintaining peace does not necessarily mean they have to be violent

  • Michael Dolan 05/05/11 #
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    Wow a foreigner lecturing us on how bad we are. There’s a novelty. If you hate the place then leave. Please.
    My theory is that acceptance of anti-social behaviour has its roots in our past as part of the UK. Being anti-social in those days was patriotic. To obey the law was to be a Quisling and respect for the police was to be a collaborator. We’ve never lost the habit. You can take my apathy when you prise it from my cold dead hand.

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    • foggy_lad 05/05/11 #
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      So these thugs and anti-social f#%$ers should be allowed take over because their behavior is traditional?

      Bring back the Stocks in the town/village square for these bastards who are costing us billions in courts Garda and other costs each year

    • Brian Duffy 05/05/11 #
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      @Michael.. Have I got this right? We are a country full of Gurriers and that’s all the fault of the British? Geez.
      Maybe the Queen could officially apologise for that when she’s here!

    • Firemantel 05/05/11 #
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      Utter nonsense – antisocial behaviour has it’s roots in rebellion, our drinking has it’s roots in our genes, absolute waffle. Parents have to take responsibility for their children. End of. I wonder if the parents of the child who threw the rock at the window actually knew where their child was? Or, conversely, I wonder if the child knew where the parents were? It’s far too lazy/easy to blame this on the collective psychological impact of occupation a hundred years ago. Respect for the gardai, respect for property, responsible drinking etc are all under rearing responsibility of parents, who, at least in the example of the kids in the above article, have failed.

    • Shirley Cummings 05/05/11 #
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      You chat bollox!

    • Shirley Cummings 05/05/11 #
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      That comment was directed @ Michael, apologies for not making that clear .

    • Shane Coppinger 05/05/11 #
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      I don’t like foreigners lecturing us either, but that doesn’t mean she’s wrong.

  • Ashley Killeen 05/05/11 #
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    Has the TheJournal become a ‘Dear Diary’ session now!

    Reply
    • Michael Dolan 05/05/11 #
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      They feel the need to get in the occasional Shock-Journo to encourage us to pretend to care by wasting our spare time replying to stuff that’s not all that news-worthy. I’m actually shocked that someone who comes from Los Angeles is outraged by the criminality in Dundalk. From Jan 1st to August 28th 2010 there had only been 198 homicides and 489 rapes in Los Angeles. Kinda puts the mayhem in Dundalk into perspective doesn’t it. :D

    • Jude Franks 05/05/11 #
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      @ Michael.
      “Kinda puts the mayhem in Dundalk into perspective doesn’t it.”
      Actually,no.

    • Shirley Cummings 05/05/11 #
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      @ Michael, see all them rapes in LA Michael, well I think the Queen should apologise for them when she’s here!!

  • Gis Bayertz 05/05/11 #
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    @Michael – I agree with you and I’m the last person to “look up” to the US for inspiration, but I do agree that antisocial behaviour should not be tolerated

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  • Brian Duffy 05/05/11 #
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    @ Michael : what is the population of LA vs Dundalk!

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  • Jude Franks 05/05/11 #
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    Clare has written an excellent and precise article which exposes the sorry state of the real face of our society. The young girls described can be found in any town showing no respect for others and even less for themselves and I do believe that the child declaring that she was not really 18 was being truthful. If she was 18 then she would most likely be on her third child by various fathers and unless her mother was still around ,she would not be out acting the maggot . As for the boys,Jesus help anyone who has to employ them. So off you go folks hit the red button on this comment but before you do ask someone who has to work with these kids what the big looming problem in our skanger society is and they will just say incest. Unintentional incest as these kids breed with their half brothers and sisters ,remember that most of them don’t have a clue as to who their parents are never mind who the the fathers of their own kids are.

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    • Report this comment

      Freak.

    • Jude Franks 05/05/11 #
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      Indeed Mícheál , some of the children born from incest could be as you describe but I would not be so unkind as to push that point.

    • JimBob Hillbill 05/05/11 #
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      So they’ll breed themselves out of existence. Problem solved :-D

    • Firemantel 05/05/11 #
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      Jude: the point you made in the last paragraph- very well said.

    • Julia Smith 06/05/11 #
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      Jude. I didn’t notice the author describing the girls as skangers in the article. Are you reading between the lines and letting your prejudice get the better of you? Nor did I know that antisocial behaviour was only prevalent among the ‘skanger’ community. I seem to remember cases of ‘nice boys’ kicking others to death.

      Fat chance any of those kids have with attitudes like yours. As for the people who work with those kids; if I asked one what the issue is I’d have really thought poverty and lack of education and equal opportunities should be among the answers I receive. And given that nobody seems to know who anybody’s dad is, how do these people who work with them know?. Are they DNA testing them or are you referring to the fact that maybe some of these children are suffering with birth defects or learning difficulties etc..? I don’t suppose alcohol and drug abuse might have anything to do with these things either? Again poverty, lack of education and equal opportunities….

    • fitszpatrick 06/05/11 #
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      Jude. I think the freak michael was referring to was you. But I don’t think that would ever occur to you.

    • Jude Franks 06/05/11 #
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      @Julia. The description of the girls speaks for itself .Skanger is apt here.
      As for the poverty and the rest of it,thats just socialist nonsense.We have an educational system which is constantly abused and having failed to take advantage of a decent education the members of this sub-culture moves onto the welfare system which they then abuse seemingly as a career.
      Some of the wealthiest men and women across this planet came from the less well-off parts of our cities and farmlands and they had respect for everything and everyone around them.There is no lack of opportunity around us,just a society encouraged to feel that way by numpties.
      As for me being a freak that is certainly true as,like many others , I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality being expressed in a lot of the comments.

    • fitszpatrick 06/05/11 #
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      Hey Jude! you say some of “wealthiest men and women across this planet came from the less well-off parts of our cities and farmlands” What has wealth got to do with anything? I don’t see any connection in your comparison between your obvious disgust and distaste for the poor and your apparent respect for the rich.

      Do you think wealth deserves respect in its own right? Its a well documented fact, if you observe your own society, you will find that many of the well off are corrupt, dishonest, obsessive, megalomaniac, egotistical, venal, arrogant,selfish, deluded, pompous, ignorant and small minded. And that’s just the nice ones. Would you say this is down to their breeding habits?
      Can you name a single well of Irish person who doesn’t have at least three of the above characteristics. I’d struggle.

    • Elpenor Dignam 09/05/11 #
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      These remarks are vile.

  • Gerry b 05/05/11 #
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    Like i keep saying our judges are far too lenient. Hence scumbags laugh at the Guards, laugh at the courts etc have no respect or fear, this Is passed on to their “inbred” ( ref Jude) kids.

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    • Jude Franks 06/05/11 #
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      Gerry may I just point out that I did not say that these scumbags were inbred? I mentioned a looming problem and this is in a specific section of society.On the other hand listening to the attempts at communication from some of them it may well have happened.

  • caramello 06/05/11 #
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    We need to stop being so defensive and try to see things from all viewpoints. Even if it is a big bad foreigners view of our beautiful country.

    “The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.”

    Elbert Hubbard

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  • fitszpatrick 06/05/11 #
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    My experience of the USA is that it is increasingly a police state driven by a pompous fearful conservatism. Authorities including the police are there to assist communities not to proactively control them. I would prefer a bit of anti social behaviour than for Ireland to be like the USA. After all crime and anti social behaviour is statistically much more severe in America, the creator of the taser.

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  • Páid Ó Donnchú 06/05/11 #
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    “bring back the stocks in the village square” #wrongfuckingcountry

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  • Mark Malone 06/05/11 #
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    “and we’re firm believers in the idea that each of us needs to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.”
    Well thats simply right wing fantasy really,its just not true.

    Heres something might make you think about the cops differently too
    http://soundmigration.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/sgt-james-gill-suckin-diesel-or-taking-the-piss/

    Reply
  • Julia Smith 06/05/11 #
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    Jude, you’ve a lot to learn if you believe that everyone is born with equal opportunities and that a view suggesting this to be the case is just socialist nonsense. I’m not a socialist but I’m also not blind, narrow minded or repressive. There’s little point in debating with you any further given your obvious reluctance to broaden your mind. You just stick with the sweeping generalisations and hearsay comments to back up your bigoted views.

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    • Jude Franks 06/05/11 #
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      Julia,you fail to offer any evidence to make your point other than generalisations.
      Have we or have we not got a top class educational system? Has it not been like this since the foundation of the state? Are children barred from our schools ?

    • JimBob Hillbill 06/05/11 #
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      We have not got a top class education system, far from it. I didn’t think that needed to be stated.

  • Report this comment

    How can people say it’s lack of education or opportunities that’s the problem? The biggest crooks and scumbags in this country, the ones that ruined this country, had plenty of education and opportunity and look where that got us? The fact is Irish people (big generalisation coming) are dirty, lazy and apathetic. Instead of protesting the bank guarantee everyone watched x factor so I’d imagine it’s no different when it comes to the likes of annoying teenage girls. You think people do nothing cos they think it’ll make no difference? It’s because they don’t want stones coming through their own windows, or worse!

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  • Report this comment

    I’m delighted that somebody is bring this behaviour to the front. We need zero tolerance with our police force the behaviour of our teenagers is getting out of control even in affluent areas. Being a parent of one my self at the moment I find myself constantly in fear when he goes out. It frustrates and angers me that the government wont stop the sale of cheap alcohol in supermarkets and off licences.When it cheaper to have a lager than a can of coke what do they think there going to do. back in the day when we were 18 we went to the local pub were you could relatively control what you dank to what you could afford and there were barmen around to monitor you. The youth of today wont pay 5euros for a pint when they can have 5 cans instead they just drink themselves into a stupor with no supervision. This is going to lead to serious health problems and a huge increase in young alcoholics, as if we didn’t have enough of them already!!!!!

    Reply

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