Does anyone have any information on what the definition of poverty is? I keep seeing these reports but it is hard to find what they are based on eg. income, expenditure, quality of life etc.

I think it’s important to know how ‘poverty’ is defined in Ireland. If you do not meet two out of the eleven points below you are classed as living in poverty.

1. Two pairs of strong shoes

2. A warm waterproof overcoat

3. Buy new not second-hand clothes

4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day

5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week

6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money

7. Keep the home adequately warm

8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year

9. Replace any worn out furniture

10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month

11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment

The full text can be found at http://www.socialinclusion.ie/poverty.html

“The people are hungry: It is because those in authority eat up too much in taxes.”
Lao Tzu

Kieran are you telling me that the 440,000 people that are on Social Welfare are all drug addicted alcoholics with children? I don’t know what you are on but maybe you’d pass some of it around!

This is welcome and timely. Increasing inequality, jobless growth (eventually) and increasing political marginalisation for the poor across Europe is the unavoidable result of pursuing the current policy approach across Europe. The huge historical irony of this is that it increases – not decreases – the possibility of the European dream and project dying as a social chasm opens and the democratic legitimacy of Europe is chipped away. The values of social justice, social solidarity and social subsidiarity have never been more in need in Europe and in Ireland. Many sense (correctly) that we have evolved from the dictatorships of Franco, Salazar, the Greek military, Honecker to a new more subtle and global dictatorship – the Markets.

“Ireland without her people is nothing to me, and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for ‘Ireland’, and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland, aye, wrought by Irishmen upon Irishmen and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart” – James Connolly

Food for thought for some of the status quo cheerleaders on here.

Your day will come when you’ll be on the food stamps yourself Kieran…we’ll see then what pride you have left walking into a supermarket with coupons in your hand..

700,000 living in poverty , I think Capitalism has failed in Ireland but I see snobbery is alive and well Kieran

When they spend it on booze the govt is getting most of it back as drink is taxed heavily . Therefore it is a win win situation!

Communism has only been tried in Europe in 30′s Spain, Makhnovist Ukraine and the short-lived Paris commune. All of which collapsed due to external military pressure. If you think the USSR was communist you may need a revision in history.

And what is described here is far, far from communism. It may be better be described as interventionist/social capitalism or at the very most socialism.

Kieran, the figures are rubbish? why?
Because you don’t agree with them.
You say social solutions won’t work in this country, how do you know? We’ve never had anything like a social agenda in this country, one thing is for certain capitalism doesn’t work in Ireland
And the poor spending they’re SW on drink & fags is not the cause of that. It’s a drop in the bucket.
“bank. You know how I describe the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep them showing up at those jobs. ”
~George Carlin~

1. Two pairs of strong shoes -> Yes
2. A warm waterproof overcoat -> Yes
3. Buy new not second-hand clothes -> Yes
4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day -> Yes
5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week -> Nope
6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money -> No
7. Keep the home adequately warm -> All Good
8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year -> All Good
9. Replace any worn out furniture -> Nope (put a throw over them) -> All Good
10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month -> Nope
11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment -> Nope

I am technical living in poverty – thats the mentalist list ever, only in Ireland

I suggest you go to many of the E Eruopean countries to see real poverty where their wages are 1/4 of ours but their utility bills are the same and they get much colder winters.
Why do you think so many are still coming here despite the mess we are in.Look at every beggar on the streets and the vast majority are non nationals bar some Junkies

Read what I said again. Food stamps for those who spend SW on rubbish instead of food for their children. I’m sure many if not most recipients of state largesse spend their money wisely.

Kieran, your taxes are not being squandered by people on SW but by banks & developers, Yet you choose to attack those living in poverty, that’s snobbery.
You want to control what the poor spend their money on, sounds like the other “ism” to me

Kieran can you offer any number about “squandered” Social Welfare. Do you have facts to back up how much money is “squandered”?

As for the idea of food stamps, how do you propose thats implemented? Do we get BOGOFF vouchers for Supervalu when we sign on? How about Job seekers, how the feck are they supposed to travel to job interviews with a pocket full of food stamps.

That the problem with people like you Kieran, you’re alright so fuck the rest?

I’m sure you’re one of those tards who worship Ann Rand. After a life time of being a cheerleader to the 1% Rand died in poverty begging for the social welfare and healthcare she spent a life time rallying against. Thats the thing about ivory towers, when you fall off them it’s a long fall to the gutter.

Wow Kieran, way to duck and evade my questions. I’ll put it simply so even you can understand.

If social welfare does not work as you claim and you want to replace it with food stamps please add a way of making this viable.

Also answer the about job seekers, how can a person get to a job interview on food stamps?

Please answer these instead of pretending you can’t understand me, like a pretentious jackass. You obviously have an internet connection so anything you don’t get I’m sure you can Google.

The major flaw with “basic income” is the level of taxation required to sustain such a system. CORI (the true name of “social justice Ireland” – dont you just love how these organisations reinvent themselves?) published a booklet during the boom suggesting tax rates of about 70%. This would penalise lower to middle income workers to such an extent that raw poverty stats such as the distorted ones SJI use would indicatee up to 2 million now plunged into “poverty.” What would also occur is that vendors of essential services used heavily by lower income groups would increase prices to exploit the higher income levels of those at the bottom, while prices of higher end luxury items would fall in commensurate with the drop in incomes of those at middle levels. The rich would increase use of offshore tax shelters while the government could actuallly see a real drop in tax takes (its already happened with VAT).

The falloff in demand for middle/upper end goods and services would collapse more businesses, resulting in more job losses, which would have a knock on effect. Meanwhile, the increase in entitlement income for those on the bottom rungs of the income ladders would disincentivise work. Unemployment would increase from 440,000 to 900,000 or more and raw poverty levels would double or triple. Self employment, except for contracting, would be wiped out, and a shrivelling tax base would finally bring Ireland into total bankruptcy.

What orifice is that fat jesuit talking out of that he could really recommend such a catastrophic move? I don’t disagree with him on the residency incentives for investors but we really cannot afford to redistribute income on an entitlement basis with the current state the country is in. It wouldn’t just fail, it would collapse an already fragile economy.

Bryan – snobbery is condescension to those in lower social classes. I live in and believe in a republic, and don’t believe in the class system. Most of my friends and acquaintances who draw social welfare do not spend their income on intoxicants. Others I know piss everything they have against the wall and complain about everything. Their children suffer from their wasteful behaviour. I don’t like my little bit of tax going to pay for those people to get drunk. I take it personally, because I could have used that tax for something useful. We should all take abuse of OUR taxes personally. SW recipients pay VAT on purchases, and have every right to feel aggrieved at wasteful spending too.
How is that “snobbery”?

Wow!
The reds under the bed have really got you spooked Kieran
Ireland a socialist republic? When did that happen
It must have been when Bertie “the only socialist in the Dail” Ahern was politburo chairman
I’ll leave you to your Daily Mail

Kieran, if by redefined for me you mean contradicted yourself, Yes you have, several times.
I have been arguing with an idiot and you have dragged me down to your level and beaten me with experience

Kieran,
The tiny minority spending they’re SW on non essentials to the detriment of their children is not the cause of poverty in Ireland
The failure of successive governments to provide social housing, a fair tax system, an education system these are the causes.
If people receiving SW bugs you that much, quit the day job, sign on, buy some cheap booze, illegal cigarettes and enjoy.
If you were in receipt of SW, you, like the majority who are, would spend every penny on essentials for your family then worry if you could keep the heating on when it ran out…….each week.
Meanwhile the socialism you sneer at is provided to the rich in the form of nationalised banks and NAMA.
You and Fr. Healy agree on one thing,
The report says that the social welfare system “is not fit for purpose”
You say “SW does not address this problem in even a rudimentary fashion, and perhaps it ought to.”

This is just Socialism 2.0. A rehash of failed policies and juvenile aspiration. Along with Tasc, Social Justice Ireland, live in a fantasy land where those who work are forced to give up their earnings to the indolent and feckless. The delusion is most evident by calling Ireland a ‘Low Tax Country’. Ha! A 55% marginal income tax rate and 23% VAT rate?! Only in Commie La La Land where all income belongs to the all-powerful State could that be considered low tax.
The solution is simple: a 25% Flat Tax on all sources of income, Abolish the Minimum Wage which is a barrier to employment and taper SW benefits by 50% over 12 months. The State is not your Daddy.

I heard the Dutch have found a loop hole in EU law that all Non Dutch Nationals not contributing to the economy and are a burden on the State can be repatriated, wudtnt that be interesting?? How wud that work here??? Let’s hear all the. Bleeding hearts.

Bryan – you are a socialist. Anyone who disagrees with you is probably guilty of snobbery in your view.
Of course our taxes are used for SW. Where do you think the money comes from? Don’t say it’s borrowed, because borrowings are repaid by – taxes

You didnt mention food stamps Kieran?
See below from your first post.
“How about government encouraging personal responsibility for every working age person in Ireland, tax breaks for start-ups and food stamps for any social welfare recipients spend our cash on booze and “

Bryan – I erred in the tax comment above, apologies for that.
Do you suppose that I do not have the same opinion as just every other person in Ireland when it comes to banks and developers? this column, however, is about the so-called 700,000 “poor” in ireland. The figure is rubbish and the socialistic solution to the so-called “problem” is worse.
Snobbery my eye. It’s an opinion. Judging by the green thumbs it’s a fairly widespread opinion too.

Bryan, the Social Justice Ireland Roman Catholic religious organisation,
700,000 figure is rubbish because ALL of those defined as being in poverty are clearly not, merely less well off than the average. One man’s poverty is another man’s wealth.

A parent who spends a lot or all of his or her SW income on wasteful living
is not, in the strictest sense of the word, poor, but stupid or selfish, or
both. However if their children are not receiving basics, they (the children) most certainly are poor and deserving of receiving a portion of the benefits the state gives to their parents. Cash which they never see the benefit of is not of any use to children whose need is for food and clothing.
Living in the same household in vastly different circumstances is a common
problem in Ireland. SW does not address this problem in even a rudimentary fashion, and perhaps it ought to.

You say SW abuse is a drop in the bucket? It’s this disregard for OUR cash and OUR taxes that has this country in the mess it’s in. Perhaps corruption has seeped from the bottom to the top instead of the other way around…

Bryan I did not propose SW be replaced by stamps, but food stamps for those who booze away our cash, which I defined in later posts. And redefined several times for you. I think I made it clear I am in favour of SW.

Steve
Again, what are you talking about? I mentioned nothing about food stamps replacing SW. That’s a poxy idea me
ould flower. I mentioned nothing about jobseekers, whatever your point – not mine – was about them.

Do you know how to debate without being abusive and rude? You might make sense if you were not so hotheaded and actually read what you were trying to respond too.

And you, Bryan, have shown yourself to be as rude and uncouth as most of your ilk. Learn to argue a point on merits and perhaps you won’t be so
doltish next tune.
One contradiction. Where?

Steve – What’s a “tard”? And who is “Ann Rand”? And what is “BOGOFF”? Why have “squandered” in inverted commas? I didn’t use the word “squandered”.
You mentioned “Supervalu” and “Food Stamps” and “You’re alright so f’###
the rest”
What is your post all about, Steve? Do you care to counter some points I made?

Bryan – In my experience – my experience, not sacred fact, but merely what I see – what you term a “tiny minority” is a significant minority and the children who suffer are real children. Why do you suppose the figure to be a “tiny minority”?

What makes you think I am bothered by people receiving SW? Quite the
opposite is true. SW is absolutely essential in a democracy. However, abuse of SW – abuse of any public funds – is unacceptable, by big government or small citizen. Also, I am reacting to the article by the SJI. You are hung up on banks and developers. I see the connection but, in reaction to that rotten piece above, I am focusing on one aspect. The points I make can stand alone without my having to surrender my meagre income and sign on to the dole I’m not entitled too. Although, to be honest, I could do with the money after over 2 months of unpaid sick leave.

Don’t you get it? – this is a Socialist Republic. We already redistribute
national wealth to the less well off as dole payments, disability, old-age
pensions, lone parents allowance, rent supplements, children’s allowance, tax breaks for low paid workers etc. We are amongst the top SW payers in
the world relative to both GDP and average income. That is great.

The SJI report is a farce which does not address the real causes of poverty, but serves a who-knows-what political agenda.

Don’t believe everything you read in the papers, Bryan. Some folks are out
to serve a purpose different to that stated.

Bryan, Socialism is redistribution of wealth by those who earn it to those who don’t. For better or worse, that is already in effect here. Taxpayers have the wealth, government takes it and redistributes.

The Daily Mail? Never bought it in my life, although I read a copy once and found it wanting. Too much ink, my servants couldn’t iron it dry.

I suppose you are a Daily Telegraph groupie and Israel Basher?

If you can make up stuff to knock it down, I suppose I can make a straw man too. Although unlike most socialists I debate with, I like to argue points on their merits and not on any perceived notions of what my opponent believes or peruses