Couldn’t agree with Ross more.

Holding a referendum on a treaty thats going to be modified afterwards while being blackmailed into a ‘yes’ vote is like signing a cheque thats going to have the amount filled in afterwards while a gun is held to your head.

Its coersion, its ludicruos and totally unacceptable.

I’m still planning to vote yes. Also, a growth section added on would make me even more likely to vote yes. I think a lot of people would feel that way.

However, there’s a lot to be said for holding off (if we can) to see what the French have up their sleeves.

@Darren Gibney you going to vote yes but you would prefer if there were changes to it before the vote but if these changes are not there you will still vote yes?????? I cannot see the sense in your post at all

Problem is at your end, Bernadette.

Stephen,

Did you see the reply I put up in the previous thread?

@Darren. Yes, but when I went reply my post did not submit.

If the UK were ‘ok’ with it they would ratify it. They are not ratifying it so it is not an EU treaty, and thus is unenforceable in the EU court of justice. This is how the legal process works, not on some vague notion that a member state is ‘ok’ with it.

Was it not stated somwhere that this is not a treaty in the true sense of the word, but is instead an intergovernmental agreement.

Stephen, If you recall Lisbon (mark 1 & 2) one of the provisions within it was to enable states to make arrangements for “enhanced co-operation” and I suspect that is the basis of this treaty. An aweful lot of people getting their knickers in a twist over this treaty which regardless of which way we vote may never see the light of day as it needs 12 states to formally ratify it to proceed so apart from Greece & Portugal (who have already ratified) another 10 (including us are needed) so for once we are not the centre of attention which many people think we are.

This is what I said, Stephen.

” I’m taking a wild guess that you’re envisaging a situation where the two opt-out countries (UK and the Czech Republic) veto the use of EU institutions for this Treaty. The UK is okay with it”

When I said the UK is okay with “it”, I meant the UK is okay with the use of EU institutions for this Treaty. They’re not going to block the use of the institutions but they’re not ratifying the treaty.

@Darren. It is not in the gift of the UK government alone, or any other state alone, to decide who and who cannot use EU institutions.

Each government had to sign up to this agreement. Once that occurs each government sets about ratifying it through their respective parliaments etc. It then becomes EU law.
The UK, members of the EU, did not sign up to this agreement. Therefore it is not an EU Treaty, but rather a treaty with 25 states who happen to be in the EU. The EU court of justice should not be used to administer this. Regardless whether or not the UK is not going to block the use of EU institutions, any other state can now block it.
For example, if Ireland is ever called before the EU Courts for breaching the terms, the Irish government could protest that the court has no actual powers.
Therefore the whole fiscal treaty is nothing more than a political stunt to appease anxious German voters. The next step is to move toward Eurobonds , something not popular in Germany, but probably the only way to save the euro.
To progress this, states like Ireland will inevitably hand further sovereignty over to Brussels.

Why are you referring to the French only, FFS the Germans have even put off ratifing the fecking thing!!!

Kenny-No-Balls (KNB) is not up to standard in dealing with Europe, he is not a leader and has only proven to be a lap dog to Sarky-arse and Merkel!! Sarky-arse is gone, new relations need to be formed with Hollande, Merkel is on her way out too, changes are happening. It is time to sit back and let the show begin, Greece a ticking bomb, Spain is about to implode, German are getting the shakes – time to cool it, take a deep breath and wait!!! For this reason alone a NO vote is warranted.

A growth pack wouldn’t change the text or cause a re-run, this is old news. It can be added onto the treaty.

Voting No for those reasons alone is stupid. Voting No because you read the treaty, or studied the arguments from a neutral provider as the treaty doesn’t add much new – all these financial restrictions are ALREADY IN PLACE. This sets new rules on how to get out of it, and rules on who issues fines etc. if you abuse it. It also sets in access to the ESM Fund.

You keep contending this kevin, that somehow a treaty which modifies our constitution and necessitates a referendum can somehow be ratified into law and simply have bits tacked onto it as easily as shoving a magazine supplement into your sunday newspaper. So, just vote ‘yes’ and we’ll worry about the changes that may halp Ireland later after everything is signed and sealed, right?

You’re a member of fine gael, aren’t you?

Paul Murphy MEP has said vote no to send shock waves through Europe.

Thank you, Paul.

Too Trueleft; The French president is seeking a growth pack. Not to amend the constitution further. Wont require a referendum.

@adrian?
Thats more than a bit patronising.
It’s what the future holds has so many unsure, should we even be voting amid so much uncertainty

I am voting no too. It is ridiculous to vote yes and to sign into government for ever (Or have another referendum ha ha to change it back ????pfft) Anyway the way I see it is this , We can not afford another loan to repay, so we cut our cloth to size , create home based jobs, in local areas , get people working again and paying taxes and default on the loans . We must do this or we will never be free of that debt. I will vote No.

The amendment we’re voting on only allows the current treaty to be ratified. If the treaty changes, we would need another referendum.

If you don’t understand the facts then please refrain from commenting.

Absolutely if you can’t be bothered to find out what it’s about then don’t vote. Disappointed by this populist nonsense from Ross, thought he’d have a lot more to contribute to the Dail than his efforts to date.

it should be quite simple but some of the literature and speeches are speculative, stray off the facts and make you wonder what to believe

I Agree Sean, particularly for our senior citizen. It would appear that there are some on this site who believe that “everyone” has the capacity to research the ins and outs of this referendum. Believe it or believe it not there are people in this country with literacey problems. So contrary to Adrian and Reg’s comments not all those who arent aware of the issues, are in the state of “uninformed” simply because they couldnt be arsed reading the commissions booklet.

Ann, this may sound harsh, but maybe those people shouldnt vote.
Info I recieve:
1. The text itself, granted, not an easy read for anyone.
2. A Stability treaty leaflet with brief explanations, we’re talking 6 small paragraphs here.
3. An explanation on the radio
4. An explanation on TV.
5. I read the journal.ie’s layman one (granted, most people may not come across that one).

What do you want them to do? Call to every person in the country and explain it to them personally? Granted, the politicians speculations are a joke, on both sides, so just ignore that stuff, and read the stuff you receive.

At least you got something in the door. Living in apartment I’m lucky just to get the standard post never mind one sided propaganda from the govt!

Oh not to worry, I got my “Vote no or your kids will starve” propaganda too.

The Fiscal treaty is quite straightforward, but by agreeing to the Fiscal treaty we’re also agreeing to the ESM treaty.

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf

And that’s f’n huge, will cost us 11 billion, and has some really worrying stuff in it which makes the ESM answerable to nobody.

Ross has stated that he will not make a decision while the treaty risks being modified i.e until he knows for sure what he’s voting for. Perfectly reasonable.

I think you’ll find its more about his business credentials and voter demographic who are most likely for it. He will come out with a Yes in the end… No need to postpone. If France secures growth amendments we will benefit anyway. What are we waiting for?

So you’re accusing shane ross of lying when he makes the perfectly understandable and reasonable statement that he won’t make a decision until he knows what he’s voting for?

Were you born with the ability to read minds, or did you go on a FAS telepaths course or something??

There goes those crystal balls again!!

How can I accuse him of lying when he hasn’t come out one way or the other?
Ann, no crystal ball. Just joining the dots. It’s not hard really…

Well you’re telling us why he sitting on the fence and it is at odds with the reason he stated, so are you accusing him of lying?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcWHBPYOSU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Chris there is a glitch on the site, are you sure it was actually posted when you hit the submit button