…..because it’s not in effect yet. It needs a certain number of countries to ratify it. Anyway, you seem to think it’s some sort of magic wand that will fix everything overnight,

Only 12 Darren! So the yes camp keep telling us it doesn’t matter if we vote no!! And no it’s not a magic wand and won’t fix anything which is another reason to vote no! Don’t you get it!

You still watching that garbage VB? Nothing better to do ?

I thought they were all bad and that Danish guy was creepy and evasive.

Hey Darren,
Have you ever heard of a top up loan? If you haven’t, its borrowing more money on top of a current loan. This is how the EU will give Ireland more money. Did you know, that for Ireland to sign up to this “intergovernmental treaty” we will have to supply €11 billion towards this fund. How can we afford to put that money into the pot? Can you explain why, the ESM Organisation will be immune from prosecution? Can you explain why this is an intergovernmental treaty and not an EU treaty, but they will make it EU law within 5 years of the treaty coming into force? Why couldn’t they make it an EU treaty in the first place? Can you explain why this treaty more or less lays the blame for the economic crash at the doors of the electorate and all this treaty will do is punish the electorates with austerity? Can you explain why this new treaty, if passed, will take precedence over the Irish Constitution? Can you explain why, if passed, this treaty will not create one single job?
Thank you
Ian

Conor… Pearse was on fire last night.. He made Bruton look like a school boy, who hadn’t done his homework. It ended up VB had to start asking the harder questions off Pearse. Bruton hadn’t a clue what was going on. And i will say it very very clearly again for anyone who missed the show last night. Irelands most competitive advantage for getting foreign direct Investment into this country is our 12.5% Corporation Tax. Miceal Martin said it during the debate with Mary Lou McDonald on RTE 2 weeks ago that FFg/Labour/FF are looking to support EU Tax Harmonization. Last night, Pearse Doherty drove that point home, and Bruton was caught with his pants down. If you vote YES to the treaty, our own capabaility of setting our own corporation tax rate will effectively be removed and handed to France and Germany, who coincidentally said yesterday they wanted to change. If you vote Yes, you are selling our childrens future down the swanny. Its your choice, but please don’t listen to the lies the Government are telling you.

Some answers given below, Ian. You need links in this game to back up your assertions. Please stop posting the same stuff all over the place. 36bn required in funding over 2014-15. Where do we get that if we vote no, Ian.

Yes, Pearse was something else all right. Nice to see him back doing what he does best, exposing the BS.

“If you vote YES to the treaty, our own capabaility of setting our own corporation tax rate will effectively be removed and handed to France and Germany”

Cal, we still have the veto on corp tax so that’s a lie. I think you accidentally copied and pasted from a No to Lisbon leaflet there.

Darren

We +may+ have a veto on the Corporation Tax rate, but we have no such veto on how Corporation Tax will be apportioned.

A plan has already been put forward (with a vast majority in favour) at the EU Parliament to apportion 1/3 of the total Corp Tax liability according to where sales have been made & at the rate prevailing in that country.

Just look at how Ireland has been treated, & still is, in respect of the banking losses. The interest rate of near 6% initially demanded, only grudgingly reduced after they were forced to give Greece a lower rate. Look at how other countries are being treated & not just Greece.

We need a proper partnership that recognises we can’t all be Germany. The inherent imbalances require some means of fiscal union. Trying to balance these with ever more unsustainable debt cannot work. Germany still subsidises the former East Germany & still provides massive public investment. The fiscal treaty addresses none of this. We need to demand a comprehensive structural reform of the Eurozone. There are alternatives.

You seem not to care that 1 in 6 (1 in 3 young people) have no job & there is no plan whatever to address this. This will pertain for a decade or longer if nothing is done.

But think on. Even if you still have a job, the unemployment represents loss of output, real prosperity forgone for all of us, running into €10s of billions +per year+, for Ireland alone. The costs & loss of output will lower the living standards of near everbody with no end in sight.

The fiscal compact resricts any individual country from resolving this & there is nothing of substance being proposed to do so collectively.

It is likely we will need a further bail out of some kind, but not until the end of 2013. There is plenty of time to negotiate what’s needed. More importantly, more loans at the unsustainable (& still punitive) interest rates will hardly make things more sustainable. Voting ‘yes’ now, effectively throws in the towel before we even start to negotiate on this matter. (Sound familiar?)

It is a lie, pure & simple, that the fiscal compact & ESM gives us any certainty. Unless the certainty of increasing poverty & joblessness is what you desire.

Yup. Much better to borrow on the open markets and be screwed by them.

Actually, the open market dont attach a waft of conditions when they lend….

LOL. Apart from loan shark lending rates!

Like the ones first imposed on Ireland by our “partners”??

Do you think we should go to the markets, Dave? I haven’t heard anyone from the no side argue that but maybe you’ve got A Plan. Please share if you do.

Hey Darren ,
Have you ever heard of a top up loan? If you haven’t, its borrowing more money on top of a current loan. This is how the EU will give Ireland more money. Did you know, that for Ireland to sign up to this “intergovernmental treaty” we will have to supply €11 billion towards this fund. How can we afford to put that money into the pot? Can you explain why, the ESM Organisation will be immune from prosecution? Can you explain why this is an intergovernmental treaty and not an EU treaty, but they will make it EU law within 5 years of the treaty coming into force? Why couldn’t they make it an EU treaty in the first place? Can you explain why this treaty more or less lays the blame for the economic crash at the doors of the electorate and all this treaty will do is punish the electorates with austerity? Can you explain why this new treaty, if passed, will take precedence over the Irish Constitution? Can you explain why, if passed, this treaty will not create one single job?
Thank you
Ian

Well said Ian. Looking forward to darren’s response…

But is that not the aim, Darren, to go back to the markets and reclaim our sovereignty? Or should we remain as a ward of Germany just so the political classes in Ireland can continue to avoid reality??

I’ve answered some points below already. Ian, provide some links, please. And this thing about it not being an EU treaty. Is that some massive flaw you think you’ve identified? Please explain.

Dave, the markets will regard us as a much lower risk if we vote yes to have the ESM fund as a backstop. If we vote no and try to borrow from the markets, they’ll be thinking, “These guys are on their own. Will they pay us back?”

Here’s a novel idea Darren. Let’s impose a charge each time a medical card is used, cap social welfare at minimum wage, make sw recipients repay any money they get off the community welfare officer, slash the pay of civil servants on over 100k pa, remove all pensionable allowances, cut civil service pay and pensions across the board, abolish quangos, raise a small amount more tax from those on over 100k, tell the EU to do a deal in bank debt or we’ll REDUCE corporation tax to 2% – and balance our bloody books

We don’t “need” 36 billion more. It’s the same as giving more heroin to a junkie in the hope he’ll eventually give up

Scrap, I love it. Finally someone here is talking sense. One big cutback and it’s done. Look at Latvia. It worked there. Their economy is booming.

Don’t know?
Then vote no.

When is the ”Jail Some Criminal Bankers Referendum” going to happen?

Historically in Ireland, if people are not sure how to vote, they generally error on the side of caution and vote to maintain the constitution as it currently stands. Here is to hoping that they exercise the same common sense on this treaty and do the same again.

Ooooh, sneaky. And paranoid. I really should be reading all the nasty little comments here, shouldn’t I? Listen….go to Google. Fill in the following search:
“Darren Gibney” site:www.thejournal.ie

You’ll find that I’ve been posting here for weeks. Up until the end of last week I was posting using my Facebook account. Then my access was blocked for no reason. I think someone here on TheJournal didn’t like the fact that I was winning arguments for the yes side. It could happen again…..

So I came back having set up a Twitter account. You’ll see posts from me last weekend where I’m giving out yards about this.

Alan, are you of those people who thinks people have nicked his car keys three or four times a day? There is help available, you know.

Huh? What the hell are you trying to say? Anyway, you’re wrong. I’ve been posting here for nearly two weeks. Do a search.

Oh scratch that comment. I dont know who you mean. You guys are headwreckers. How about debating the issues rather than all this personalised stuff??

Winning arguments for the ‘yes’ side? LOL. All you’ve done is regurgitate the same threats and repeat the same falsehoods as the rest of the yes campaign.

@ Alan. Noticed that myself. danny grey magically appeared when darren gibneys account was disabled and ever since the both of them are making the same arguments at the same time of the day, even though danny is apparently voting ‘no’ i.e. darrens voting yes because otherwise there’ll be massive cuts to welfare and services and dannys voting ‘no because there will be massive cuts to welfare and services. Both using the ‘yes’ campaigns soundbites but voting different.

Kinda like the ‘yes’ campaign putting up ‘Vote NO for cuts to welfare and services’ posters.

Like I said, just as well people around here aren’t the suspicious types

LOL @ Darren. “winning arguments”

You’re getting slaughtered pal.

You regurgitate the same tripe over and over and add absolutely nothing to the debate apart from links by economists who admit the economics of this treaty are absurd.

You don’t answer questions posed to you.

You also rarely respond to comments by posters to questions YOU’VE asked!

Good man, keep it up. You’re doing the NO sides job for them in convincing the undecideds to reject the treaty..

The fatcat will surely not leave his cosy bed in front of the fire .He’s remark to the Bloomberg journalist yesterday stating that ” only the irish would vote for this treaty” is a sure sign that this man has had it so good for so long that he has lost all touch with reality he is even prepared to tell a journalist that basically he thinks the majority of voters in Ireland are “THICK” .He would get his hole opened in a debate with Pearse Doherty ..

Would ya get of the dole and read a news paper (spin on your name, just in case anyone gets upset)! Jobs are being create left right and center since Lisbon. :D Well, kind off. Lisbon for Jobs is the same white lie as it is this time around. It was purely a manipulation of the fact we would be reaffirming our support to the union, sticking with it and moving forward. Otherwise we would be a country that is very unstable, and risk current and future jobs. It wasn’t all wrong and it wasn’t all right.

But what didn’t happen, despite being told it would be by the No camp, was stuff like conception, abortion, corporation tax, and numerous other “We are doomed!” campaigns. None of which had a small iota of truth. Really, and lets face it, the No camp is all about making up bullshit and plucking figures from the sky to make the Yes side look bad because they cant stick to the facts because there isn’t much you can argue against in the treaty bar the simple fact – Do the Irish people want to told they have to control their spending or face fines? Do the Irish people want access to the ESM Bailout Fund, if we need it, or do we want to look elsewhere such as the IMF/Markets/Taxation/Cuts? None of which sound good and don’t really put the frighteners on people so instead its all about lies, lies and even more lies.

Its a pain in the backside that in this country we cant have an honest campaign from both sides without resorting to complete lies and trying to scare the wits out of people. Both sides are at fault here, but in this country it just seems to be the done thing. It seems at least in this treaty, a lot of people are not going with the No camp and are making a more factual choice going forward or still on the fence but not letting either side manipulate them into deciding. And rightly so.

Kevin. Jobs are always being created. Jobs are always being lost as well. Whats important is the ratio of one to the other. Since your party have come into power the jobless figures may have stayed static but 50,000 people have emigrated to find a job i.e. 50,000 have left the dole cues to hop on a plane for work and have been replaced by another 50,000 who have lost their jobs.

Oh, and Kevin, its YOUR party who colluded to have us blackmail and threatened by europe, so get off your soapbox about ‘honest campaigns’. Your lot were practicing filth tactics before the referendum was even called.

I Hope you dont watch RTE or listen to any of our radio broadcasters if you dont want to be manipulated..

I nearly misread it too. Spilled my coffee. Swingers 35%. . . Cheered me up no end.

If you don’t understand what you’re voting for, then go and inform yourself.

Completely disagree. I think if you haven’t taken the time and effort to go and find out about what you’re voting for then you shouldn’t attempt to influence the vote one way or the other. Being disengaged is a choice in itself.

Its not like there aren’t enough sources of information out there. Obviously a lot of it is baised towards one side or the other but there are enough independent sources to get the information.

Sorry comment was meant to Alan McBride

Don’t patronise me. I know my stuff. You yes guys think ye know it all?

Latvia’s currency is pegged to the euro so it’s almost as if it was in the euro. It didn’t undergo any devaluation. They slashed public spending, social welfare, pensions, cut public sector pay. Five years on they’re booming.

We could do that too. We need to get back our competitiveness.

Danny, on the other hand Latvia controls its own interest rates.

Danny,Darren i could care less about this treaty.I’ve to Lativia Riga in fact.I’ve seen first had what they are going through.We will go through the same wether we vote yes or no.Besides as i stated on a thread yesterday this treaty is becoming irrelevent.But you if you like keep playing your games.But don’t be surprised when you are accused of the obvious.You have nice day now.(Is that patronising?I’m not sure.)

Damocles, when you’re in a currency peg situation, your interest rates are primarily a means of keeping to the peg . You’re not free to use them to boost or reduce demand as say the US or UK is.

Just seen this. Bloody French. The Treaty will come back rewritten with huge stimuluses, pork barrel spending on a grand scale…. The sheep will vote for it 90% plus…..

Careful now danny. If you keep answering questions directed at the other DG people may think you’re the same person and posted your reply to the wrong account by accident!

Can you point to any poll done by a reputable agency like Millward Browne over the last 10 years that was significantly inaccurate?

Seriously? You’d trust a poll here as opposed to one carried out by a reputable company whose primary function is to do research into public opinion.

A poll here on the other hand can easily be manipulated by both sides getting their supporters to come to Journal and click YES/NO depending on what side they support. We’ve seen that happen time and time again especially on political polls.

Greece had over 100 billion written off. we have not had a single penny written off.

we will get a write off if it comes to it also.

grow a pair and vote no ffs

You want us to be like Greece, shut out of the markets and stuck in a bailout for at least another 10 years? No thanks.

Darren, do you think if you repeat the same BS a dozen times on the same thread people will believe you?

Europe cannot afford a disorderly default in Ireland, it would cost the european banks a huge amount of money and threaten the €6 Trillion eurozone as a whole. Now, given that greece receive a massive debt writeoff and more funding despite not meeting its targets and not following its program, are you HONESTLY contending that the eurozone and ECB will risk bringing down the whole house of cards over a country who is the star pupil, meeting its targets and following its program obediently, rather than further extend credit thats being paid back on time and is helping dcover eurpoean bank debts.

Honestly, darren, are you saying that they’ll risk a catastrophic default rather than lend us money they know they’ll get back from the stat pupil?

TTL, if we’re going to be tapping them for cash one way or another, why not just vote yes?

That’s the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard Darren. “Vote yes, what’s the difference?” The debate is revolving around the access to the ESM funds. I believe we’ll get the money one way or another. However, that is far from a good enough reason to make constitutional changes!
Then there’s the total immunity that will be granted to the ESM body, effectively putting an unknown and unelected banking body above the law.
Then there’s also the lowering of the deficit limit to 0.5% of the GDP. What seems to be generally ignored is that there is already a limit of 3% that was studiously ignored. Even if it wasn’t ignored and was just impossible to reach, how in the hell can a country that couldn’t stay within 3% be expected to stay within 0.5%? And then be fined for it, heaping more financial burden on a country that may be struggling?
I’ll be voting no for this treaty.

Hi all,

We love a good, heated debate here at TheJournal.ie but can ye please refrain from calling each other names? There’s no need really. Stick to the topic and as our comments policy says, play the ball – not the player.

Cheers,
Sinead

Why not just vote ‘yes’ darren?

The fines

The extra 6 billion adjustment in 2015

The 20 years of extra cuts under the 1/20th rule

Changing our constitution on the dictat of a foreign entitiy

The blackmail

The threats

The failure of the ‘yes’ campaign to articulate reasons for voting ‘yes’ instead of threats about what will happen if we vote ‘no’

personal intuition !!!

Voting yes does not guarantee money will be available or provided. It will just increase the chances that it will.

It increases the chances hugely. Also, the security of having the ESM backstop would make us a lower risk for being lent to on the markets.

There is a legal glitch emerging with this Treaty. It is not an EU Treaty, in order to be it would need all 27 countries to ratify it. Only 25 countries have signed up to ratify it. So it is NOT an EU Treaty, it is a treaty of 25 states who happen to be in the EU.

If its not an EU Treaty how do the participating countries envisage using EU Institutions to administer it?

Stephen, could you explain this point better? Or provide a link? It’s not at all clear what the issue is.

I can explain it to you darren. A regular treaty must be ratified by all member states to come into effect. This is a ‘compact’ signed by a subset of members, which requires only 12 states to ratify for it to become law. Had all members signed it prior to ratification, Ireland would have had a veto on the whole treaty rather than a referendum on its ratification.

What you’re referring to is something different, TTL and it’s not an issue.

Stephen, I’m still waiting on a fuller explanation. In the meantime, I’m taking a wild guess that you’re envisaging a situation where the two opt-out countries (UK and the Czech Republic) veto the use of EU institutions for this Treaty.

The UK is okay with it. Are you saying the Czechs aren’t?

So the issue here is that it may be difficult to use EU institutions to administer the treaty and that’s a reason for voting no?

Do you not think that the Eurocrats from 25 countries including all of the countries within the eurozone would not be able to come up with some sort of enhanced cooperation structure to ensure that the treaty works as intended? That’s not really a credible argument, imo.

@Darren. Whether or not the ‘UK’ is ‘ok’ with is beside the point. If the UK government was ok with it they would ratify it. That is how the legal process works, not with subjective nods and winks.

In order for the participants of this Treaty to avail of the use of EU institutions ie the EU Court of Justice. The treaty must be prescribed as an EU Treaty. In order for it to be an EU treaty 27 member states must ratify it. The UK is not ratifying it so it is not an EU Treaty. It is a treaty between 25 states who just happen to be in the EU.

The treaty is nothing more than a political stunt to address the anxieties of German voters. It will have no legal standing in the EU. The ‘Yes’ side have managed to produce economists who say the treaty does not make economic sense, as an arguement for voting Yes!

The aims of the treaty already exist in the Growth and Stability pact, so why vote again on something that already exists? Especially seeing as the G&S pact did damn all to prevent a banking crisis and property bubble.

In the meantime the ECB is offering unlimited loans to banks at cheap rates so that they can in turn lend the money at high rates to sovereign states (ie taxpayers)

This is looney economics at best, and a further demonstration of the undemocratic nature of the EU itself.

Lisbon yes for jobs 15% unemployment

Fiscal yes for a working Ireland 40% unemployment

I dread the future treaty’s we’ll all be unemployed and Joan burton can have us work for food!

Condescending much…

Its the small minority with lots to lose like the Irish political class who want this passed!

Who said that the 86% of employed people are happy with how and where they’re employed.
People’s T’s&C’s, who “are lucky to have a job”, have been decimated in the last few years across both public and private sectors, mine included. I’m a firm no, for this very reason.

We won’t be locked out of the markets that was a promise from Noonan 2013 is the time we go back because all of the cuts and terms of the troika deal were met!!

Now are you telling me that Noonan lied and that the cuts and slashes to the economy have failed?

And you advocate more of the same ?!

“We won’t be locked out of the markets that was a promise from Noonan ”

Link, please?

Waiting on an answer Darren?!

I’m waiting for you to back up your comment about what Noonan supposedly said.

Are for real?! Troll central I am not posting a link to what everybody knows (I know I hate it when uninformative Karl wheelin links are provided)

You know he said it, I know he said it, everybody knows he said it!!! And to be quite honest if I could link a page on the iPhone I would just to shove it in your face!! Maybe some one could provide one?!

Pass the buck much? Politician in training?!

Anyway on topic……

35% are undecided and will err on thr side of caution when voting this micky mouse treaty in….

The yes voters are switching to don’t knows…..

Care to comment on the topic of the article?????

Exactly ryan. The first mention of Ireland possibly needing a second bailout was when fine gael colluded to have the blackmail clause inserted. Before that we were getting access to the ESM.

Now, all of a sudden its “Where are we going to get the funding if we need a second bailout” when they are solely responsible for the threat to that funding and have changes their story about whether or not another bailout is required.

No to the blackmail
No to the threats
No to the lies

NO on the 31st!

No to more bailouts. No to living beyond our means. Balance the books now.

TTL, This “blackmail” clause as you call it means that if we’re lending to Portugal or Greece, they’ll have to have first signed up to certain conditions.

If you disagree that lenders shouldn’t ask for such conditions from borrowers, then I totally respect your position. You wouldn’t gizza lend of 5 thousand yoyos, wudja. I’ll pay you back..errrmmmm….. sometime.

Well it was a clause inserted only once it became apparent that Ireland would require a referendum on the fiscal compact, and which threatens Irleand in relation to access to the ESM if we vote no. Or, as its also known, the whole ‘yes’ campaigns argument.

Now as blackamail is defined as “to force or coerce into a particular action” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackmail), I think we are entitled to refer to the clause created to coerce into the action of voting ‘yes’ as blackmail.

Actually, strangely enough, the dictionary also defines the following:

Terrorism : the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism)

I think smoebody needs to have a chat with Michael Noonan, don’t you? Or are you happy to see your fellow countrymen and women threatened, blackmail and terrorised.

Want to post another off topic rant of BS!!

Hey Darren,
Have you ever heard of a top up loan? If you haven’t, its borrowing more money on top of a current loan. This is how the EU will give Ireland more money. Did you know, that for Ireland to sign up to this “intergovernmental treaty” we will have to supply €11 billion towards this fund. How can we afford to put that money into the pot? Can you explain why, the ESM Organisation will be immune from prosecution? Can you explain why this is an intergovernmental treaty and not an EU treaty, but they will make it EU law within 5 years of the treaty coming into force? Why couldn’t they make it an EU treaty in the first place? Can you explain why this treaty more or less lays the blame for the economic crash at the doors of the electorate and all this treaty will do is punish the electorates with austerity? Can you explain why this new treaty, if passed, will take precedence over the Irish Constitution? Can you explain why, if passed, this treaty will not create one single job?
Thank you
Ian

Don’t let me stop you.

That reply was to Ryan.

Ian,

Could you answer my question, please? You could have made your points in a separate thread but you’re doing it here to derail discussion of my one simple question.

And could you post some links to back up those assertions? You’re just throwing random untruths at me from a no leaflet. I’ll do the hardest one: the 11bn will not be required from us if we’re still in a bailout and it’s a worst case scenario if all of the ESM needs to be drawn down. Even then, it’s payable over many years. It’s not a one-off payment.

Now, want to answer my question?

On topic….

Yes voters are switching to don’t know..

Your beloved treaty is dead in the water….

No matter how much scary BS you post…

The yes side are loosing faith….

I don’t blame them…..

Have you even read the treaty or just mouthing off what Noonan and Edna tell you…..

Stand up for yourself….

Think for yourself……

Vote no its the best thing to do for IRELAND…

That was for you Darren made out in simple form so you can understand it.