Fair play to them for introducing this bill. I find it shocking and frankly, medieval, that this still isn’t law.
But then, the health service has not been exactly better than a lot of third-world services, is it?

It’s scary. Does she ever smile ??!! I am not a fan of hers but fair play to her for raising this. 20 years have passed & no politician had the guts to legislate on it. My own personal view is that if we lived in an ideal world, the topic of abortion would not exist. However – we live in the real world & abortion is part of that real world & we have to legislate for it. Myself – I think the mother’s life takes precedence if her life is at risk. I think most medics would go along with that. Myself – I wouldn’t be in favour of abortion on demand for the sake of it. There is always fostering & adoption as equal choices. At the end of the day, the choice is with the mother ( & partner/spouse where apt ) & if the decision to have an abortion is made, have it here & deal with it. For what it is worth -

That’s kinda my point! Sometimes an abortion is the best solution from almost any moral standpoint. For example, if the mother is suicidal.

The fact that a foetus in the early stages is doomed without it’s mother just makes it a complete non-issue – denying an abortion kills them both

(on a side note, the point at which we can support a foetus outside the womb is being pushed back all the time which could have big implications for the wider abortion debate)

Chuck, I believe most pro-lifers would not agree with an abortion to save the life of the mother as to them this is blaming the foetus for the misfortunes of the mother. To me this is consistent with believing the foetus is a life.

I don’t understand how you could believe the foetus is a life but say that abortion is ok if the mother was raped or is suicidal.

If you don’t believe the foetus is a life, the only logical position is to be pro-choice. That’s my point. I don’t understand the some abortion is ok position.

Where it gets really difficult is where the foetus could survive outside of the womb.

“Chuck, I believe most pro-lifers would not agree with an abortion to save the life of the mother as to them this is blaming the foetus for the misfortunes of the mother.”

Well, you’re looking at one. Kinda.

I dunno why are you mentioning rape – I certainly didn’t. It’s entirely possible to believe that the unborn have a right to life, but that it isn’t absolute. I know Im repeating myself with that but it seems I wasn’t clear. I think it’s ok to take life to save another person’s life, but NOT to vindicate a right to privacy

I’ll put it this way; Say there are siamese twins born and were sharing organs. In this hypothetical situation, separating them would save one, but kill the other right away. Leaving them conjoined would condemn them to a miserable existence and a very early, but not immediate death. I think in those circumstances it would be ok to take the innocent life of the second twin to save the life of the first.

Limit it to 12 weeks.
Up to this point spontaneous abortions are a very real possibility. And it is a long enough period to have decided upon a course of action. The foetus is not capable of survival ex-utero (as its lungs form after this point), and even nature sees it as a possibility of life rather than life itself.
The vast majority of abortions carried out are within this time frame anyway.

Shanti, the fact that miscarriages occur is a bit irrelevant. By that logic, the existence of SADS legitimises homicide (since some people die naturally anyway)

The fact that the foetus can’t survive ex utero seems irrelevant too. I mean, babies are totally dependent upon others to sustain their life after birth as well as before

Also, are you saying to limit it to 12 weeks where there is a threat to the life of the mother? That seems harsh! You’re ordering women to die to protect their unborn.

If you’re saying that all abortions should be legal up to 12 weeks then how do you feel about that limit being pushed back as medical science advances? (not a rhetorical question, I really want to know)

12 might not be long enough to decide upon a course of action. You might not even realise you are pregnant at that stage. It violates the ‘keep your laws off my body’ mantra (which I think is ridiculous) that feminists frequently trot out. Are you ok with that? (again, serious question)

Chuck.
You are comparing apples and oranges, a foetus has yet to become life, whereas a human being living and walking around is a different story.
A baby can survive without IT’S mother, it can survive if a person (or even animal – it has happened) assumes the role. A foetus up to 12 weeks most certainly cannot, it doesn’t even have lungs.

You would notice you were pregnant by 12 weeks. You would have missed at least 2 periods. If there was some reason why carrying to term would endanger the life of the mother – chances are she would be aware of it. If not, and it is not discovered until after the 12 week cut off period then this is seperate. A woman who was suicidal about a pregnancy (eg through rape / incest etc) would have felt that way from discovery of the pregnancy.
If he pregnancy is the result of contraceptive failure then she will know from the moment she discovers it as she was trying to prevent it to start with.

Really, you are putting words in my mouth, this is not helpful in these debates.

With regards medical advances, I have considered them, that’s why I say 12 weeks. Before 24 weeks at present, the death of a foetus is considered a miscarriage – despite the fact a baby was born and survived at 21 weeks. It is only after 24 weeks that our legal system recognises that as a birth and death.

In order for a foetus to survive outside of its’ mothers’ womb prior to 12 weeks it would need another womb.. If they invent a way to do this then perhaps there will be no need for abortions, they could just deliver the baby and grow it elsewhere and put it up for adoption.. It could happen, but it hasn’t yet.

Lastly, I would just like to point out, when you are pregnant, you know. You just do. You can feel something, and your period is ridiculously late.. Except in extremely rare cases) the test is just for confirmation.

Exceptions will have to be allowed for, such as complications discovered during pregnancy, or the very rare instance that periods continue in spite of the pregnancy, but these are very rare occurrences. And to highlight them as examples is fallacy.

Shanti you seem offended and Im not sure why, Im only asking your opinion

How do you feel about dictating to women who are more than 12 weeks pregnant that they must carry the baby to term?

It’s not true to say that you would definitely know you are pregnant. I personally know a girl who didn’t know she was pregnant until she went into labor and here’s a link to a few more. http://health.discovery.com/videos/i-didnt-know-i-was-pregnant/ it happens more often than people realise. I can think of at least one woman in Irish public life who was talking about the same thing in the press, and that’s nine months – not 12 weeks

I don’t think it’s different to compare a natural death to a miscarriage, and miscarriages happen at later stages too. And even if you don’t see it that way your point that a baby can survive without it’s mother and a foetus cannot does not apply to a foetus after your own 12 week point

I don’t know where I put words in your mouth, all I did was ask you questions.

This….”In order for a foetus to survive outside of its’ mothers’ womb prior to 12 weeks it would need another womb.. If they invent a way to do this then perhaps there will be no need for abortions, they could just deliver the baby and grow it elsewhere and put it up for adoption”…..is interesting as we really are headed that way. Im not sure how much consensus you will get from the pro-abortion side of the fence.

I’m not offended, where do you get that??
I merely pointed out the fallacious aspects of your argument, that’s all.
You speak of women who don’t realise until labour – again, it’s a very rare occurrence, it’s still a fallacy..
Besides, if labour is your first warning – you’re not really going to be booking in for an abortion are you?
With regards later stage miscarriages, these too are less common and are usually as a result of accidents. Whereas a pregnancy can spontaneously abort for no reason at all in the first 3 months – and many do. Hence why many women choose not to announce their pregnancy until this period has passed.

I don’t feel right about dictating to any woman, it’s her body. I’d rather not have to ever do it myself. But you brought up the medical advances, and as a baby can be delivered and survive at 21 weeks, 24 weeks is too long. If the condition is survival without the womb, 12 is a safe bet. But I’m open to debate on that issue..

“Really, you are putting words in my mouth, this is not helpful in these debates.”

Sounds offended

I don’t see you pointing out any fallacies. It’s not rare at all for women not to notice they are pregnant. i gave you examples of women going the full 9 months in order to make the point that if women can go 9 months without noticing then going 12 weeks without noticing isn’t surprising at all. Here’s another who went 9 months http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/singers-joy-as-oscar-turns-up-unexpectedly-1418851.html I can’t give you links to women going 12 weeks without noticing as no-one reports on that – because it’s not news – but I assure you I’ve known several.

“I don’t feel right about dictating to any woman, it’s her body. ”

This isn’t an answer. You say you want 12 weeks to be a limit. Im asking a simple question, if a woman discovers she’s >12 weeks pregnant are you happy for the law to force her to carry it to term (by outlawing abortion from that point)?

“You either believe abortion is killing a life or you don’t.”

You can think that the unborn have a right to life but still think that right is not absolute.

In cases like an ectopic pregnancy you have to decide between the mother’s right to life and the child’s. In a case like that the choice is abortion or death for the mother. That doesn’t mean you can’t believe that the right to life of the unborn is superior to the mother’s right to privacy

Actually Chuck the treatment for ectopic pregnancy does not necessarily involve abortion. It’s not a choice between abortion and the mother’s life.

The baby cannot be saved in an ectopic pregnancy. Why take the risk?

What shower did you come down in ? In an ectopic pregnancy, women die FFS, face palm ! I am pro choice I do believe that people should have the option but I think peeps need educating on things

Abortion is ending a pregnancy, even an ectopic pregnancy.
The treatment for an ectopic pregnancy is to end the pregnancy, usually with an injection of methotrexate if it’s early enough other wise it’s a specialized surgical abortion. These get carried out in this country as a matter of course and no one bats an eyelid. So to say there is not abortion in Ireland is factually wrong.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2011/1129/1224308275439.html

Who said otherwise?

Plenty of people seem to think that there are no abortions what so ever happening in Ireland.

I think that point is one that is unfortunately being overlooked actually. I mean think of the mental pressure and damage carrying the child of one’s abuser or rapist may bring. Shocking that we still persist in viewing mothers of such pregnancies as corrupt, infected Jezebels as opposed to victims of wrongdoing.

“Everyone and everything has a right to life.. But I believe abortion should be freely allowed ”

You’re contradicting yourself a bit there

As someone who has not had a abortion I know several other women who had, they had good reasons one suffered from severer post natal depression after her first child and her relationship was not as stable which in hindsight was a blessing because 2 yrs later she spilt from her partner. I don’t think people should push the antiquated views on people since they sometimes don’t have a clue of what a person goes through and it’s sad that Ireland still has this attitude, Cora do you have kids ?

“Instead it’s sympathy and talk about hard cases. No woman who killed her actual post-born child would get that reaction!”

Women who kill their children get lots of sympathy. If a man had done this he’d get much more harsh comment…..

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mum-jumped-over-cliffs-and-took-her-son-with-her-1116145.html

They even get a special law where it’s ‘infanticide’ to kill a newborn instead of ‘murder’

And plenty of people protest vehemently against abortion. If you haven’t noticed that then you haven’t been paying attention

That’s not true, abortion was dealt with in Roe v. Wade as a matter of privacy

I’m afraid you got that a bit wrong there, Harry. Abortion was decriminalised in the US with both eyes open as to the consequences of their own SC decision.

It may be true that there is a broader scope in terms of the reasons given for abortions in US, UK and other Eu countries where abortion is legal, but the actual numbers of abortions are on a steady downward trend. Western Europe, where abortion is legal has gone from 48 to 28 abortions per1000 women of child bearing age in just 20 years. Hardly ‘legs and a tail’.

The US shows a similar trend, although this will surely be reversed as sex education, contraception and abortion itself become more difficult to access.

The thing is, a self- induced abortion, although extremely dangerous, will always remain accessible to women with no access to contraception or safe medical abortions, which is why the incidence rises rather than falls when it is banned.

Because it is in the news. Dont worry incase you didnt notice they also published a few articles about the priest who was defamed. Its not part of some Marxist liberal agenda. Always important to clarify this when conservatives/religious play the victim card.

…………………what the fuck are you on about?

Marxism? Religion? Victim card?? Where are you getting this shit??

By the way, it’s in the news because they keep putting it in the news. That’s my whole point

No its news worthy because politicians are discussing a motion and a pro choice grouping has been established. News is about presenting facts even if conservatives or liberals dont like them. As for your sense of confusion about what I said earlier it only proves my point further. Your original post was a bash at the Journal because you wish the religious were able to reign it in as they do with RTE. To their credit this has not happened.

Wow, that’s amazingly arrogant. I’m not religious in the least and I didn’t mention religion – please take your presumptions elsewhere. And Marxism?? And seeing religious conspiracies in the media?? You’re paranoid

Now for the rest of your crap;

“politicians are discussing a motion”

One politician. And this had not happened when the first 6 stories were published

“a pro choice grouping has been established.”

There is nothing new about this

“As for your sense of confusion about what I said earlier it only proves my point further.”

No it doesn’t

The Journal generated it’s own news by running a poll, commissioned and published an opinion piece, put together a pictorial history of the x case, selected abortion as part of it’s 9 at 9 and presented Clare Daly’s comments as a separate story from yesterday’s abortion story. This is not reporting the news in a manner reflecting events as they occur, this is creating the news and placing an undue focus on one issue

Well said Chuck Farrelly. I raised similar points in the last thread on this issue (seems like only yesterday…Oh, it was last night and this morning). I thought I had made some progress when I saw Cyril Butler use “conservative/religious” today, but normal service was quickly resumed with his astonishingly presumptuous reply to your comment. The aggressive secularists seem entirely unwilling to engage with any rational argument against abortion; they just shout “religious nut/loon/brainwashed etc etc” and consider the debate over.

Btw Chuck, I was critical in my recent comments of increasing coarseness on Journal.ie. I think that is a feature mostly of the secular/liberal side but obviously not entirely. Just my opinion.

Seems Chuck and Cyril got off on the wrong foot. Reckon ye fellas are on the same side. Kiss and make up guys…

What is this “aggressive secularist” business, Mr Mark?

https://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/commentisfree/2012/feb/16/civic-life-law-ritual-religion

http://www.thejournal.ie/government-urged-to-legislate-for-x-case-20-years-after-original-court-decision-358459-Feb2012/

I believe, sorry think, I covered that pretty comprehensively on this thread.

Sorry Charles. I’ll pay closer attention in future. Anyhow, I don’t think anyone has anything to worry about. If there are such people as “aggressive secularists” they are few and far between. Although noisy, they’d be completely harmless and entitled to their views like the rest of us…

More bad luck stories from your friends?? You’re cursed! So your married friend with the 5 kids got pregnant because her parents didn’t talk to her about sex when she was a teenager? hmm…..

I don’t know why you put “the abortion” in quotation marks, but we aren’t exporting anything. Like I explained to you the country isn’t making a decision to send women for abortions, they are going themselves. Even if we wanted to restrict the right to travel (which we don’t) how would that work in practice? The word ‘export’ has a meaning already, you don’t get to give it a new one when it suits you.

Do you want to legalise everything that people travel abroad to do? I bet you don’t.

Seriously chuck why don’t we meet up and say that straight to my face you coward, woman should have the right to have a termination in the country she resides in simples, sounds like you have zero life experience and are basically trolling your way through the journal

No one else is doing anything about it and, remind me, how long ago was the “X” case?

And was Clare grandstanding when she went to prison for a month over the bin charges? If inda had half her integrity we wouldn’t be the laughing stock of the financial markets and Europe.

Is it grandstanding to speak on behalf of the large number of citizens who have been constructively disenfranchised by successive governments?

The over 40′s have a high turnover for the trips over to the british clinics, I really love how you think it’s young people

It was a bad spilt they already had a child and it’s more than likely that child has been through enough trauma and if you suffered from severer post natal depression you’d understand why she did not want to go through it again

@The One & Only – I specifically don’t like to comment on personal situations because I don’t think it’s appropriate to do so when I don’t know the person in question.

We are all entitled to have an opinion on whether we think abortion is something that should be introduced into Irish society. It would have a huge impact on this country – as it has in the UK, where 66 babies were born alive in “failed abortions” in 2007 alone. The law requires that these babies are left to die and for this reason they cannot be aided to breathe or resuscitated. One baby lived for ten hours before finally dying. Is this the sort of society that we want to live in?

Many women report negative effects following their abortion. Again, this is not something which I would like to see happening to my female friends and relative, nor to any other woman who finds herself in an unplanned pregnancy situation. I believe that there are better options and these women would be better served by society if more support was given to them, rather than the apparent solution offered by abortion, which all too often turns out to be no solution at all.

Finally, I believe that every human life has inherent worth. No-one has the right to end that life, regardless of the circumstances and regardless too of the age or ability of that human life. This is not an antiquated view. It is the foundation of every civilised society.

If you had a 12 week cut off point you would not have that but I find it highly unlikely that happened another pro life sensation. Ireland needs to stop shifting their problems to the UK and grow up in our attitude to sex

And as a mother of 2 daughters if they were raped in the future( which i really hope does not happen)I would have no hesitation in helping them obtain an abortion, up to a certain point 12/14 weeks anything past that is a grey area, and realistic a baby in order to survive has to be 27/28 weeks, my younger sister was born at 26 weeks she lived for 6 months in unit 8 til her death but had she lived she would have need constant 24 hour care

Fine well I’ll ask you the same quesiton I asked Shanti (without getting a reply) ……………

Are you happy enough to have a situation where a girl finds out after 12 weeks (your limit) that she’s pregnant and is forced by law to carry the baby to term?

I don’t know why you went straight to rape for your hypothetical example, from your last story it’s clear you think that a dodgy relationship with your boyfriend is a good reason to have an abortion. But do you really care what their motive is? Is any motive too frivolous for you? I have real life stories too…..

This “we’re exporting the problem” argument is ridiculous. People go abroad for all sorts of things that we keep illegal – firing weapons, fucking prostitutes, taking drugs. I don’t hear feminists campaigning for those. We govern out country as we see fit, and we don’t restrict our citizen’s right to travel. In any case, we aren’t “exporting” it. They are exercising their right to travel. We aren’t sending them

And if we do bring in your 12 week limit, I promise some women will go abroad for abortions much later than that. Will we still be ‘exporting’ our problem then?

It’s got nothing to do with an attitude to sex.

It’s highly unlikely you find out your pregnant after 12 weeks personal experience as soon as there is a missed period you kind of Suss something is a miss,which is possible around the 4/5 week, so that excludes your past 12 week argument, Christ we have been exporting “the abortion” for years, this is the same country when it’s frowned upon to be a lone parent no matter what way your looked upon as a free loader it’s your damned if you don’t and your damned if you do

The woman had severe Post Natal Depression which I think was a good reason enough, if you suffered from pnd you might understand

And, like I said, if you’d ever been incinerated you’d feel different. Maybe she shouldn’t have got pregnant? I mean there’s more forms of contraception than I can count. And I don’t consider potential depression a good enough reason to take a life

Now – any chance of an answer? I provided links above for stories of women going 9 months without realising they were pregnant so 12 weeks is nothing. I also know several women who found out AFTER 12 weeks that they were pregnant.

Will you just answer my simple question instead of lying and saying it’s impossible? It clearly isn’t.