The most sense posted In a long time gran thank you for your clarity bitterness and backstabbing will achieve nothing but take the spotlight of the real culprits. Remember everyone all we have as a nation at the moment is our people private and public sector workers we need to pull together and turn on the real problem the financial speculator and bankers and political classes. The public sector is not the problem we all actually depend on them I personally could live without the politicians etc that try to get us to turn on each other and scapegoat ordinary public sector workers. And no I don’t work in the sector

Given the extra workloads, changes in work practices and increased efficiencies, you’re probably right. And they’ll deserve their increments as well.

For the job they do I suspect that is a well paid role. Also which ones are on 25k as I struggle to believe that.

Simon, a quarter of public servants earn less than 25K.

Here you go Simon http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/salary_scales_new_entrant2011.pdf
Compare a cleaners salary with the HSE and this job. http://tiny.cc/ra05hw . There is about €6,000 of a difference.

“Last year, research published by the German Macroeconomic Policy Institute (IMK) shows that in 2010, the average hourly labour costs (including social security costs paid by private sector employers) were €28 for the Irish private sector and €34 for the Irish public sector.

The rates for Germany were €29 per hour in both sectors; Finland’s rate was also €29 in both sectors and the UK was €20 per hour in the private sector and €21 per hour in the public sector.

So the Irish public sector had a premium of 21% before accounting for the benefits of the special pension scheme.

‘The National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030’ report which was published in January 2011 stated: “Salaries account for three-quarters of total current expenditure on higher education in Ireland – compared with an international average of two-thirds. This means that Irish higher education operates with lower (nonpay) recurrent expenditure than is typical in other countries.”

Last April, the Department of Finance said that while taxation receipts in 2012 are projected to be just above 2004 levels, the gross voted expenditure of Government Departments and Offices in 2012, at an estimated €56bn, is projected to be 37% above the level it was in 2004, despite the very significant adjustments to both revenues and expenditure since mid-2008.”

Croke Park has achieved no savings according to finfacts: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024483.shtml

@Sean If my wages were to be reduced by 21% I’d gross just over €400 per week, net would reduce it by so much less when tax, levies etc. are taken into account that I’d be far better off on the dole.
No doubt you’d then say our social welfare is too high here too, so what do you suggest next? Should I, and tens of thousands like me, try begging at the side of the road?
The real problem seems to be the cost of living in ireland, nobody I know is living any kind of high life, I certainly aren’t, yet you seem to believe I’m being paid 21% too much. The fact is most people like me, on a similar wage, are struggling to get by some can’t even do that. The Public Sector makes up 20% of the workforce in Ireland right now and contributes a significant amount towards local economies and the exchequer.
We now have this crazy proposal to work another 2 hours a week, unpaid of course within the HSE only, after all the cuts and levies we have already taken this is akin to another 5% pay cut.
I understand that things are expensive, I’d like to see a breakdown of where that €34 figure came from as the vast majority don’t earn anything near it – but our politicians earn a lot more than our neighbours, and we do seem to have a lot more politicans than they do for such a small country. Don’t forget they’re Public Servants too.

Agree 100%…..what about benchmarking,they did some roaring for it during the boom,don’t hear that word mentioned much nowadays

Just wondering Brian as to how many hours a week someone in your position would work and why you have to work the extra 2 hours.

Nice one Paul, bring back benchmarking, can’t the public services unions going for that one. You have my vote though . How short are some peoples memory.

It wasn’t that way in the good time so why now.

Crucify him Brian. He has no defense. Of course they will defend the indefensible as they are well aware of their elite status and close to handicapped output. We need to challenge this at every turn as publicly as possible until we have a government that isn’t the equivalent to a flaccid penis.

Gentlemen (why is it mostly men) benckmarking was only introduced as a result of the emerging “boom”, it was the Private Sector that were driving up wages so much at the time that there was a serious drain from the Public Service. The Public Sector at that time couldn’t attract any staff to join, despite the so called pensions and “cushy jobs” and were loosing staff at a serious rate, it has been pointed out that it’s most ardent critics had their chance then but chose the much higher paying jobs in the Private Sector, construction, IT etc.
I’m not suggesting we could survive now on the wages we had then, in fact it would be illegal, but it was the sanctimonious Private Sector who drove those wages up in the first place forced the Public Sector to catch up in a move that became known a Benchmarking. As we all now know everyone is paid more than they were in the early 90′s, or would have been untill the world stopped turning and the piper had to be paid. Now 40% of those under 25 are unemployed, 20% of the workforce is in the Public Sector. We didn’t push the cost of living to where it is, but it’s there, those who have a job are lucky regardless of who their employer is but they’re somehow supposed to feel guilty, especially if they work for the Public Sector. I don’t care who someone works for, if you earn your wages, and the important word here is earn, then you’re entitled to take home a reasonable income. Your family are entitled to eat, have a roof over their heads, be warm when it’s cold, be clothed, have an education. The alternative is to have the Public Service somehow held responsible for something that they didn’t do, punnish them, to pay them less, begin a media campaign and encourage the public to call for their sick leave to be cut, impose levies. Oh wait a minute…

Vinny, I think the difference with the wasters in the private sector aren’t paid out of my taxes. If a company has a large costs associated with doing business, then their products or services will be more expensive than a better run company, therefore I’m not likely to buy them. I have no choice in paying people in the civil service.

I think you’ll be amazed to find we pay as much tax as you. And when all the cash ye people want cut from public service is taken from the economy there’ll be alot more private sector workers in trouble then what? Cut more money from the public service? You should run in the next election your economic policy is great

Ah sorry didn’t realise tax was exclusive to private sector workers. How lucky are we in the Public Sector. I’ll tell you one thing, firemen, teachers, Gardai and other public servant didn’t cause the mess we are in. They also didn’t get the big salaries and bounses that the private sector got during the boom. What they did do was get a job and in most cases cut their cloth to measure, now if the people on here get there way these people will go under, default on mortgages and loans and in alot of cases end up on social welfare and then my friend you’ll pay more tax and more money into banks to cover the mortgage defaults.

So should we borrow more and and more to pay people more and more?

Vinny the article is about the civil service, not firemen, nurses etc.

No not more and more, just their salaries. And no don’t borrow just increase taxes

So your great way to get more money back into the economy is to increase taxes and give it to civil servants as a pay increase?

Number 1. I’ve not looked for and have no intention of looking for a pay increase.

Number 2. Every penny saved on the public/ Civil service pay bill will leave this country to pay back debt that we should not have to pay.

3. There are alot of private sector workers who want to work but find themselves on social welfare. When the civil servants salary is equal to the social welfare then the social welfare rates will be cut. (not really bothered about people who choose welfare as a career) but decent people who want to work will be hard hi.

4. Do you people really believe that the public/civil servant are raking it in and hoarding away money left right and centre?

1. So you’ll refuse to take it when it’s offeredn2. The article is about spending extra money we don’t haven3. If social welfare rates are as high as those in the civil service, then they should be cutn4. Nobody believes people are raking it in, but somebody will have to pay fir this with extra taxes

That should have read fran auto correct

why did u not take a job there a few years ago ?

Sure, your 2.5% raise works out at 1.2% net whilst inflation is up at 3%. Pay rises that send you backwards!

Please. Even you cannot be so stupid to think 25 percent if civil servants are in 25k or less. Why do you think the country is destroyed? It’s not because we have lots if lazy people on 25k. And for the comparison of any entry grade person on 25k I suggest that is at least 20% higher than a private sector equivalent and that’s before a generous pension and zero possibility of being fired or indeed having to contribute anything but racist comments about members of the public you serve.

I often wondered about the origin of the moniker Simple Simon – I think I am wiser now.

Well you’re obviously not in the business of knowing the facts.

Pretty ignorant comment right there. A mark of 3 on the 1-5 scale indicates that you are satisfactory and have met all of the requirements of your work. It does not mean you turn up and give 60%.

Too, up to now you only had to score 2 according to the article so that means “has met some role requirements to required standard but performance has fallen short in some respects”. It’s only now that the PS has to actually be satisfactory and meet all the requirements of their work.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but doesn’t the jobholder set out their own goals and training needs? That is an open invitation to put down bog standard “goals” that are easily achievable and a couple of fully expensed courses (junkets) each year. You then get audited by your manager who lets face it is hardly going to give you a crap mark anyway as it would reflect on their own performance and therefore their own increments.

I was replying to denisms bs that 3/5 meant 60% when it actually means satisfactory and has met all requirements

“Correct me if I’m wrong here ”

You’re wrong. You do not set your own goals. They are set in tandem with your supervisor according to the work requirements for your area. Nor do you pick your own training needs. You apply for training which must be confirmed as being necessary for you to attend before its even considered.

Well said.

Patrick, what a quick witted and original comeback. So you must be s senior civil servant judging by your high octane intelligence. I presume your ability is equally matched.

PS was getting paid 25% move than the private sector. Even some of the union leaders were surprised with what they achieved. all because Bertie an co couldn’t say no to anyone

PS workers like the fireman thats going to haul your ungrateful ass out of a burning building dave?

How do you benchmark a teacher, garda, paramedic, firefighter?

The article is about civil service pay, not firemen, nurses etc.

Dave mentioned PS workers which include those mentioned by myself and other posters.

My job pays 10-20K more in the private sector. I have a good setup but I will probably move if my pay gets cut again.

@Pierce2020

I was responding to Dave Sherman’s point. He mentions Public Service, not Civil Service.

@Mark

So was I, no slight at you. Apologies.

It’s not 60% effective, a score of 3 indicates you are working at a normal rate and hitting all your targets, a 4 is exceptional performance and no one gets a 5

Brian we are the unheard masses. The country is run by the lazy and the overpaid. I feel shame being Irish living abroad.

Joesph, targets that you set yourself. I mean come on how many people are actually going to set challenging targets for themselves? I left a comment above that you might have a look at vis a vis assessment. I have a better idea, how about an outside assessor sets realistic, achievable targets and assess them rather than the current system. I have no problem with people getting increments or bonuses as long as they actually deserve them.

I have come across this PMDS lark before in the private sector. You put down goals that you could achieve with your eyes closed and apply for the best and most lucrative training courses that you can get. Easy street all the way as my boss was hardly going to hang himself and say that his staff were crap and inefficient and that he wasn’t doing his job properly.

On a separate note I would be red thumbing my comments if I was in the public service and suddenly realized that Joe Public isn’t as stupid as I thought they were. I mean if I was a van driver/gatekeeper/cleaner with the HSE making €24,754 in my first year for a 39 hour week http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/salary_scales_new_entrant2011.pdf and before any other benefits. I would hate to think that every sales rep, business owner and self employed person with possibly years of experience and making less than this for a lot more hours,would cop on to the fact that I am on a nice little earner in a secure job and 9 to 5 with overtime of course. I could definitely see why anyone in the PS would so vigorously defend their position.

Brian, you have been corrected on this already so you are either slow on the uptake or being dishonest, you do not set the targets yourself.

Too I am neither slow on the uptake or being dishonest I was trying to multi-task (something that might be alien to the public service) reading PS salary’s, responding to you and also responding to Joesph, all the while searching the internet to research and backup my argument’s. Obviously I am not performing well enough in your eyes so I will award myself a “2″ at my next performance review.

Brian I have never set my own workflow targets they are set dependent on my area of work by the offices quarterly strategy. The targets I set myself are to do with areas such as personal growth, team work and up skilling and have far less of an impact on any rating.

Why is that fair? It didn’t match during the good times.

More ignorance. Are you plnning INCREASING nurses wages to what they’d get in the private sector nellysroom. How about IT personnel in the civil service? You going to give them an INCREASE as well so they match their counterparts in the private sector? How do you benchmark firemen, Gardai etc?

That’s what benchmarking is too trueleft.

Private sector pay is linked to verifable deliverables and key performance indicators .. Public/civil service does not appear to be held accountable for performance in the same way. That’s got to change.

As for guards and firemen/women . Benchmark against the same jobs in other countries with similar tax income.

LOL! So it benchmark the public service, except the ones who’d get a pay rise as a result. They have to be benchmarked against other countries.

Biased much??

what else are you going to benchmark against.

benchmark everybody against other countries with similar tax income so.

you choose..

Uncivil service, your funny. Like a toothache.

You might have missed the two rounds of pay cuts then Simon.

absolutely.it took me 26 years to reach the top of my scale as a teacher.se condly those calling for more benchmarking have forgotten that we have had a 15 per cent pay cut already.

There is no guarantee that your pay will rise in the private sector..none what so ever..

There is in the public/civil service..very few people get promoted in the private sector.

In most private sector jobs if you asked your boss about pay scales you would be laughed out of the office.

Lots of silly ill-informed comments, maybe?

So you know what all these people get paid?

I’d be on more money in the private sector Dave, as would nurses etc.

More ignorance.

Off you go then

No intentions, I love my job. Some people are motivated by more than just money dave.

Job security is a serious motivator for anyone. You don’t get that in the private sector.

No you don’t, but you do receive a higher wage as compensation. Far higher during the boom years, when people looked down their noses at the likes of myself who could have doubled their salary by working in the private sector. Now, 5 years and a 15% pay cut later, I’m listening to the same peoples arrogance turn to pettiness and childishness.

“AROUND HALF of the staff at the Department of Finance do not have any qualifications in business, economics or related fields, it has emerged.
Data published by Michael Noonan shows that a significant number of his staff, who between them have a total of 422 qualifications in various areas and levels, do not have qualifications in the fields most closely related to the Department’s work.”
The Journal 27/05/12

1 in 3 maths teachers unqualified etc etc.

Rubbish socialist and sf will not cut low and middle ranking public servants they will target the fat cats in private sector CEO etc and high paid civil servants over 100,000. Even more important they will tax the super rich and chase the speculators with money hidden. They will not scapegoat public servants who did not create the mess and who keep this country running with no Thanks.. I do not work in civil service just not a populist fool whipping up hysterical anti public service s..t

Betty,

Stop smoke-screening behind the ‘low paid’. It is the medium-high paid public service that is bankrupting Ireland. It will be changed in the near future otherwise people will vote this gov’t out of office.