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Updated 1.45 pm
THE SAVE THE 8th campaign group is accusing RTÉ of trying to “intervene” in the referendum debate and tell No campaigners who can appear on RTÉ.
The accusation comes after confusion yesterday that led to a planned two-on-two abortion debate becoming a one-one-one with two male politicians.
Ahead of Prime Time’s referendum debate last night, RTÉ said that Love Both spokesperson Cora Sherlock pulled out of the debate. Sherlock claims this is not the case.
The Prime Time debate went ahead featuring Minister Simon Harris and Sinn Féin TD Peadar Tóibín and was watched by 738,000 viewers, almost half of whom watched the full show.
A statement tweeted by the managing director of RTÉ News Jon Williams last night said that RTÉ was informed that Sherlock would not be taking part in the debate “despite confirming her participation last week”.
Speaking today, Save the 8th spokesperson John McGuirk claimed that Sherlock had agreed to go on the debate “in principle” but that the collective No campaign wanted the Iona Institute’s Maria Steen to go on instead.
“RTÉ decided last week that they were going to hand-pick panellists, so it was never a question of one campaign or another being asked for someone because they were going to handpick them,” McGuirk said this morning.
And one of the things they did was to say there’d be an obstetrician on one side, a senior doctor, on one side of the debate. And no obstetrician from the No side. So there’s an inherent imbalance there.
Speaking about yesterday’s confusion, McGuirk said:
Yesterday the three campaigns, having spoken to each other, Iona, Love Both and ourselves, all agreed that Maria Steen was the person that we wished to represent us at the debate. And RTÉ went to the lengths of literally saying that we will have any woman in the country who is not Maria Steen.
“RTÉ tried to intervene and tried to tell the collective No campaign who should speak on their behalf,” he added.
“In relation to Cora, what she said is that she was happy in principle as a person to do the debate. And by the way we would have been happy for her to do the debate.”
McGuirk said that the position of the three groups yesterday was that if they were not allowed to send their nominated person to the debate they would not send anyone.
Asked about McGuirk’s claims today, RTÉ reiterated that Sherlock had confirmed her participation in the show last week.
A statement said:
RTÉ Prime Time had informed the No campaign from the outset that the panel on the RTÉ Prime Time debate would not include anyone who had already been a panelist on the Claire Byrne Live debate just a week previously. However the No campaign insisted that Maria Steen (a lawyer) – who was a panelist on the Claire Byrne Live debate – was the only option it would put forward.In the interests of facilitating a wide range of voices and to maintain its editorial independence RTÉ Prime Time declined the offer of Ms Steen while making it clear that it was very open to other suggestions.
“RTÉ at all times maintains editorial control of what content it broadcasts,” the statement added.
Despite Sherlock and Steen’s absence, the Prime Time debate went ahead featuring Harris and Tóibín with host Miriam O’Callaghan explaining Sherlock’s absence.
“I would like to say that we were to be joined by two women on this panel but unfortunately Cora Sherlock of the No campaign pulled out and for balance we had to reduce it to two,” O’Callaghan stated.
Following the non-appearance by Sherlock on the RTÉ show, the campaigner appeared in a video published last night by TheLiberal.ie and denied that she had “pulled out” of the debate.
Sherlock did not explain her absence from the debate but asked her supporters not to “worry about headlines”.
“I wish to speak to the pro-life movement in Ireland. Firstly, I’d like to thank RTÉ for offering me a place on their debate this evening, Peadar Toibín is one on the most honourable and gifted politicians we have, and I know he’s doing a fantastic job defending the Eighth Amendment,” she said.
I’d also like to commend RTÉ for taking doctors off their panels and for recognising that this is not a debate about maternal healthcare, that this is a debate about abortion on demand.
“For the avoidance of doubt I want to make it clear that at no stage did I pull out of this debate. There’s been a lot of noise today, but please don’t worry about headlines.”
https://www.facebook.com/TheLiberal.ie/videos/2000682676643027/
Sherlock was not present at a Love Both media event in Dublin this morning in which a number of parents and affected parties defended the Eighth Amendment.
A number of spokespersons for the group denied that there had been a falling out with Sherlock and insisted she remained a spokesperson for the group.
Katie Ascough said she did not have specific details about Sherlock’s no-show but said she was not involved in the decision.
“We are united in our goal and hopeful and confident for a No vote,” she told reporters.
TV3 is set to host another referendum debate later tonight that will be hosted by Pat Kenny.
It has now been confirmed that Steen will appear on the show after withdrawing from the programme last night.
But this morning TV3 confirmed that Steen, who’s a lawyer and a prominent No campaigner, would appear on The Pat Kenny Show Referendum Special.
Save the 8th said today that she initially pulled out of the show because they wanted her to appear on Prime Time last night.
Minister for Social Protection Regina Doherty, Colm O’Gorman of Amnesty Ireland, and Senator Rónán Mullen will also feature on tonight’s TV3 show, which airs at 10pm.
- with reporting from Gráinne Ní Aodha
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I was on the fence on this one,but the militants on the no side have pushed me,and I suspect many others to a yes vote..
@Dave Walsh:
Im sure the thousands of HEALTHY babies thst will be aborted thank you for your sheeplike devision.
@Ismise Máire: Pray for them Máire.
@Ismise Máire: I’ve heard about No campaigners insulting people at their own door because they said that they were voting Yes. After seeing your comment, it wouldn’t surprise me.
@Ismise Máire: I think you’ve just proven his point…
@Ismise Máire:
Its not like humans are in any danger of dying out anytime soon.
And whos going to pay for all those unwanted babies when born especially the ones with multiple disabilities that will be put in state care that no one wants to adopt.
@Dave Walsh: Peadar Toibin wouldn’t admit when directly asked by the head of the Rape Crisis Centre if he was happy to force women or girls who were raped to term. He would. That’s just a disgustingly unfair attitude. ‘I don’t want to force anyone, but…’
Ugh… Vote yes. Despicable.
@Wayne: and I’ve personally been called all sorts of names and been told that as a man I shouldn’t even have a say on the matter by people for the yes vote so let’s not pretend that obnoxious people are the preserve of the no vote. There are people who believe their opinion supersedes everyone else’s on both sides.
@Ismise Máire: People from the future can’t thank us Maire….. Time travel now, that’s the latest from the no side.. You read is here first.
@Gav Quinn: yes undoubtedly the best way to alleviate the suffering of one victim is to create another.
@Dave Walsh: So you’re being pushed to vote based on the behaviour of others and not logical arguments?
@Ivan Connolly: Yeah good man Ivan, ANOTHER MAN telling women what to do. It’s just an excuse for your disrespect for women. You don’t care about some stranger’s kids. Get out and adopt, donate your money and time to helping kids if you’re so genuine.
@Dave Walsh: no you werent , kust another childish sweeping statement from someone heavily invested on the yes side …
@Din8rtd: Nazi argument…well done. The yes mask slips…
@Joe O’riordan: Godwins law. The No mask slips
@Joe O’riordan: still no constructive posts, just more snide comments.
@Ivan Connolly: let’s be quite clear here 50% of fertilised eggs die. Do you call then victims? It is absolutely ridiculous that you are here saying that a rape victim doesn’t deserve to be able to control of her own life again. The perpetrator creates both victims. The child born of rape is already a victim.
@Din8rtd: their is another agenda to Leo you can’t trust government on anything look what happened to smear test woman are dying. Vote no
@Ismise Máire: And I’m sure the thousands of women and children incarcerated, forced to do unpaid labour, beaten, tortured, murdered and dumped in septic tanks have thanked you for your sheepish devotion to Iona and the church.
@Dave Walsh: lies, this is just your tactic to convince the undecided. Do you think people are stupid enough to copy your lies? Pathetic
@Gav Quinn: Mr Harris sidestepped a hell of a lot of his questions too man.
@Paul Fahey: and it will be 39 seconds more before you turn back into a 4 year old with ridiculous childish comments and name calling. Hypocrite
@Stephen Mc Elligott: seems odd that so many of your friends and contacts are featuring in articles in the last 24 hours; Cora, Tim and the IBCR.
@Ismise Máire: And the woman’s lives who will be saved, just ask Savitas family, let woman make their own decision, vote YES
@Patricia Cooney: So you’re basing your vote on your lack of trust in the government? seriously grow up and read some of the heartbreaking posts that women have to endure because of the 8th. In Her Shoes – Women of the Eighth. Read them and then decide.
@Ismise Máire: 50% of ALL human embryos are aborted spontaneously – that’s 1 in 2 of every human pregnancy. The overwhelming majority of women do not even realise that they had been pregnant in the first place.
Millions of human embryos pass out in women and girl’s menstrual cycle every year and these end up on panty liners and tampons. This means that literally every woman who is sexually active will have a spontaneous abortion at some point. Why has the church no ritual for the systematic blessing of women’s menstrual cycles to ensure that all these aborted “babies” can go to heaven? Why aren’t there dedicated places to bury all these aborted “babies” on consecrated ground? Why are the religious so fixated on the tiny number of women who for their private reasons choose to terminate a pregnancy within the first 12 weeks. It’s literally a drop in the ocean compared to the mass killings imposed by nature or god, depending on your own belief system.
@Patricia Cooney: 1. What is Leo’s other agenda?
2. You can’t trust a democratically elected government on anything so what are you proposing a theocracy like the one we used to have or the one they have in Iran?
3. Women dying from misdiagnosed smear tests is dreadful but totally unrelated to other women making a decision to terminate a crisis pregnancy.
Also, statistics show that on a worldwide basis, there is practically no difference in abortion rates in countries where the practice is legal or illegal. The only time abortion rates go down is in countries where it is legal and where women and girls have sufficient support, education and contraception. The 8th amendment probably causes more abortions among Irish women than if abortion were available legally and with medical supervision here as the current situation means women can’t talk to any medical staff here (or anyone else in many cases) and simply take a ryanair flight to the UK.
@Ismise Máire:hang out the washing. Tis a fine day for it
@Din8rtd: I fo
@Din8rtd: Dirt bag comment but no surprise
@Gav Quinn: what about John Walters saying how he didn’t care if it is an 11 year old rape victim in fact he said “ I don’t care if the child is 11, 7, 2 or 3 years old , they should be forced to carry that baby full term” I couldn’t believe what ide just heard! That’s just insane.
@Din8rtd: let’s hope you never find yourself infirm but if you do I’ll be happy to save us all some money.
@Ivan Connolly: No supporter volunteering to kill? Wow.
@Din8rtd: ok, so you went the other extreme…
@Patricia Cooney: you’re right Patricia, it’s all a big conspiracy the government are playing at. While ye are all out voting he’ll be robbing houses or something…or he’ll privatize abortion and then go back into practice and own all the licenses, flip Leo’s a genius…,P.S. catch yourself on.
@Ismise Máire: I think you have just proved Dave Walsh’s point. Keep up the good work. Have a go at me for wanting to protect the rights and dignity of women. Please, please do. Who knows, you might sway a few more people in the right (Repeal) direction.
@Joe O’riordan: great job, keep it up. You are being invaluable to the Yes side.
@Dave Walsh: Somehow Dave, I don’t think your being completely honest there. The fact is that there are militants on both sides, however if that’s all it takes to sway you then your easily led. I’m voting yes but not because of being influenced by “militants” as you call them. Not all yes voters agree with other yes voters regarding the reasons behind their decision, far from it. The fact is that it will be no great celebration if either side wins, so please don’t play the victim to curry favour with other yes voters.
@Dave Walsh: what a woeful reason to vote on either side. As an as yet undecided voter, I know whichever way I finally decide to vote, I will have deeply unpleasant bedfellows. Both sides have ‘extremists’ cursed by blind certainty a little like religious zealots on the one hand and assured atheists on the other whose views are informed by blind faith rather than considered and rigorous thought.
@Dave Walsh: Militants is a pretty appropriate word , considering the fact that the No campaigns shared its supporters’ data with the NRA . Not that concerned about taking human life once it’s born ..???
@Dave Walsh: Bull, you were always a yes voter,
@Ivan Connolly: The difference is that the No side want to legally impose their belief system on the majority of people in this country. The Yes side want to allow the people dealing with a crisis pregnancy to make their own decision. That’s a critical difference. Vote YES for democracy or NO for Theocracy!
@Dave Walsh: Can I just say that the nastiness and lack of empathy shown by the pro abortion side is staggering…I was in Dublin yesterday and they had a large sign outside Trinity with ‘High five for Repeal’, People who agreed would high five and do a dance to celebrate…Such a serious subject of babies lives, life or death and they are actually celebrating it?…..if people vote to repeal, thousands of perfectly healthy babies will die going forward…..all unborn babies will have ZERO right to Life….it’s so serious…Please force the government to just regulate for the small amount of hard cases and VOTE NO…
@Din8rtd: Ismise won’t be paying for these babies,neither taking care of them, loving them and raising them…so none of her business but the parents to decide. Anyhow she thinks she is saving the human race from self extinction…ludicrous
@Anne Marie Devlin: +1
@Dave Walsh: Oh please what have a lunatics on either side got to do with this at all?
@Ismise Máire: You sound exactly like the No campaigner who called to my door, uninvited, and jeered my for my choice to vote yes, to my face on my own doorstep. I hope all their interactions were equally uncivil as they would indeed prompt someone to think twice.
@Ismise Máire:
Tell us, how can they thank him? even before an abortion they can’t even take a breath on their own, never mind communicate.
We are in utterly ridiculous nutter territory now.
@Gav Quinn: yawn. Would be great if you actually had something worthwhile to say gav instead of resorting to name calling but that’s clearly the level of your debate. You’re doing the yes vote proud.
@Dave O Keeffe: that’s pathetic. People also die but unless they were killed they aren’t victims. I hope that’s not your best argument.
@MaryF: bit of a difference between an embryo and a baby and someone dying naturally or in this instance failing to exist is a lot different from consciously killing it.
@Dave O Keeffe: yes you prob thought it was the preserve of the yes supporters.
@Ivan Connolly: eh you volunteered to happily kill someone for financial reasons.
@Paul O’Connor: works both ways Paul, I was called a redneck and a hillbilly on my own doorstep because I told together for Yes that I was voting No and wouldn’t be swayed. Both sides are equally as bad as each other and that is a fact.
@Dave Walsh: Hopefully the militants on the NO side are shooting themselves in the foot. There has been an awful campaign of misinformation run by many on the NO side. NO posters on every pole in Ireland misusing stats, the use of a fake nurse on a billboard, hiring a former member of Cambridge Analytica, setting up websites for undecided voters that claim to be unbiased, sending out booklets made to look like official government documents etc etc So much of the Trump base in this – Disgusting: https://drunktree.com/2018/05/21/the-abortion-referendum-the-dangerously-authoritarian-impulse-of-many-no-vote-advocates/
“I’d like to thank RTE for taking doctors off the panel”
Five seconds later she uses a Doctor to back up her point.
@Daithi: like last week in the debate when Mary Lou McDonald asked the NO side not be bringing up the hard cases and then she goes on to talk about the hard cases on the yes side straight away.
@Daithi: 40 years ago doctors encouraged their patients to take up smoking for tackling stress, abortion like smoking is not healthcare.
@Mr Phil Officer: It is healthcare when a woman needs an abortion.
@Dave Doyle: more women abort unwanted pregnancies as a result of having an affair than all the so called hard cases combined, that is not healthcare, these private “clinics” in the UK operate for profit, it has nothing to do with healthcare.
@Mr Phil Officer:But it is healthcare-doesn’t matter if you believe that it isn’t one-it’s a medical procedure
@Mr Phil Officer: WTF???? Where are you getting that information?? Misogyny is alive & well in the no campaign! All those dorty dorty wimmen….
@Mr Phil Officer: 40 years ago was 1978 and they did no such thing… Just what year do you think this is? 1930 or something ?
@Mr Phil Officer: btw, can you get back to us with how you deal with lung cancer without doctors, since smoking is not healthcare, in the same way that unprotected sex during a rape “is not healthcare”. You seen to focus on mechanics of impending healthcare rather than the fact that Cora refuses to prosthelytise her opinion alongside actually qualified people above her pay grade.
@Mr Phil Officer: I have had a quick look online at the latest annual statement from the Marie Stopes group in the UK. This is a Trust and and such does not operate for profit.
https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/9118f2c7-e873-4d06-8eb3-bc2ba503795d
It is very easy to get your facts straight in this day and age. It took me 30 seconds to find the report. Where are you getting your stats about women and affairs?
I’m getting sick of the moralising from the No side. As if somehow you have the moral high-ground and yet you shame and pillory women form merely making a choice about their bodies.
@Clare Butler: “misogyny” women can have all day orgies for all I care, just don’t expect others to pay for the termination of their unwanted pregnancies.
@Mr Phil Officer: yes Phil thats what happens- women go off having all day orgies and then go for abortions. Just another weekend!
@Gulliver Foyle: I would vote yes for protecting the small number of so called hard cases but I am being asked to also vote for unrestricted access on demand abortion up to 3months on perfectly healthy babies, that is the reason why I will be voting no.
@Mr Phil Officer: no your not. You are being asked if we can *legislate* for*any* case. Maybe it’s best that you don’t vote if you cannot read the question being asked. If loads of you guys get elected, you can actually legalized a full ban on abortion in all cases. You can actually force births like in the handmaid’s tale.
@Gulliver Foyle: there should be two questions on the paper but Ireland’s conservatives are using the hard cases to force through unrestricted abortion to comply with what will eventually be EU wide standard abortion laws.
@Mr Phil Officer: Conservatives are forcing through a liberalisation of our conservative abortion laws?
How does that work?
@Gulliver Foyle: …also you do know the handmaidens tale is a TV show and not real life, if you are basing your emotive decision on the tribulations of make believe TV characters then maybe it’s you who shouldn’t vote.
@Change Everything: conservatives who only a couple of years ago were anti abortion, they have all the principles of a used car salesman.
@Greg Kelly: Whataboutery anybody?
@Mr Phil Officer: Ah here! I thought it was a documentry. You’ve ruined it for me now Philo.
@Clare Butler: I have a 4year old account on here, from day one I have called for the deeds and achievements of Ireland’s great women to be recognised, I have highlighted many times how women have been disgracefully written out of the history books, I am probably the biggest feminist on here so for you to label me misogynist is way wide of the mark.
@pats brandon: it wouldn’t surprise me if some of these angry extreme liberals are basing their opinions on the sufferings of the fictional handmaidens.
Want some advice, don’t watch it, it’s boring and painfully slow.
@Mr Phil Officer: I don’t think you get the whole link between the fictional dystopian theocracy and the theocracy that a no vote entails. One is a group of militant christians, imposing their interpretation of biblical scripture and… I guess you get it now.
@Gulliver Foyle: I am a secularist, religion does not factor into my reasoning for voting no, and I certainly won’t be basing my decision on a fictional TV show.
@Mr Phil Officer: Actually the Handmaid’s Tale is mirroring real life for a LOT of women. Seriously it’s eerie how much of it is based on reality now.
@Ruth McCann: come on now Ruth, you don’t actually believe that, it’s a work of fiction.
@Mr Phil Officer: Doctors never encouraged patients to take up smoking. 40 years ago, it was already known that they damaged people’s health. In fact, it has been known since 1967 so that’s 51 years: https://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/11/health/still-smoking/index.html
@Mr Phil Officer: Another nonsense comment Phil – must try harder.
50% of all human embryos are aborted in the first 12 weeks by nature or god, depending on your belief system. That’s 1 in 2 of all conceived humans on the planet now or ever and in the future. These aborted foetuses pass out of the girls’ and women’s bodies in their monthly cycle and the women and girls don’t even notice it. Why fixate on less than 1% of abortions which are accessed by women during crisis pregnancies. It’s literally a drop in the ocean.
@MaryF: cigarettes were once physician tested and approved, proscribed in some instances, ads even had doctor recommended promoted brands.
@Mr Phil Officer: eh, actually you said why you are voting No in one of your comments, something about it being OK to use abortion for the “hard cases” but that you’re not paying for any one else. So it appears you are objecting on financial grounds. Well, at least your financial point is valid, even if I do disagree.
@David Stapleton: @Mr Phil Officer, apologies. For clarity, you mentioned money in the context of women having all day orgies and not in context of hard cases. By the way, is this just all day lesbian orgies your supporting now or are you in favor of men being included in these orgy things?
@Mr Phil Officer: You prefer to pay for their upkeep over the following 20 years instead?
@Mr Phil Officer: Yea, yea, in your dreams maybe but not in 1978 and not in this country.
@MaryF: it seems he does… what you have to say about that Mr. Phil? Will you be there throwing euros and money for the kids who their parents won’t give a toss? I am sure you will be there like Moses was waiting for all the animals…such a good kind hearted person you are
@Greg Kelly: Mary Lou recoils from answering the hard cases when questions on the disappeared arise or fails to disassociate herself from IRA murderers and criminals and RTE fail to call her out
Anyone else reckon that Cora was afraid that if she was heard for the Nth time dodging the question ‘would you force a 12 year old rape victim to carry full term’ that the public might cop on that she would, but knows that refusing to answer on national TV instead of radio would sink the No sides campaign?
@The Risen: Peadar got let off too easily on that question last night and I’ve no doubt Miriam wouldn’t have pushed Cora on the matter either. The moderators should have explicitly requested a yes no answer. Or after he answered, stated that his answer was in essence yes and given him the opportunity to refute, which of course he couldn’t do.
@The Risen: Pretty sure Matt Cooper dragged an answer out of her on the Last Word on Tues. Really shocking to hear. I think you’re spot on.
@The Risen: you can’t give a one word answer to a complex question. Perhaps you should read the story of Ms C. Pregnant at 13 following abuse/rape. Forced to go to England for an abortion against her will. Follow up healthcare/counselling provided by the state; minimal. Now a young woman she has suffered significant mental health issues. She has spoken out against repeal and is advocating improved back up services for young women in these situations.
@Pharmy: No one on the pro-CHOICE side is happy what happened Ms C. She had no CHOICE which is the only thing that people on the yes side want. No one should ever be forced to have an abortion and no one should ever be convinced or encouraged to have an abortion.
@The Risen:
She’s not the only one who can’t answer that. There is no shortage of NO moralists on here who think not answering that question makes it go away.
@Pharmy: Of course you can give a one word answer. My answer would be a very simple no. I absolutely would not force a 12, 14, 19, or any aged female to proceed with an unwanted pregnancy after rape. It’s only more complicated if you’re trying(and failing in every circumstance) to justify a yes answer, or answer yes without saying yes.The question is would you force a rape victim to remain pregnant against her will? There is only two possible answers.
@Tweed Cap: in case you missed it, Healy Rae refused to answer that last night on TV3 in an uncomfortable 10 minutes, even going to a break as he was waffling air while being pressed on it.
@The Risen: I’m curious. Exactly how many raped 12 year olds have been forced to continue with pregnancies? I’m sure since you are referencing it you must have the numbers to hand.
@Pharmy: this happened despite the 8th amendment being in place. I sympathise with this woman but a no vote won’t prevent it happening again.
@Ivan Connolly:
I’m curious also.
How many is not enough for you?
@Ivan Connolly: Do you think a 12 year old pregnant following a rape, who wants an abortion and whose parents want her to have one, should be denied it?
@Ivan Connolly: Trying to delegitimise the point. If you’re claiming it’s not to be worried about, then there’s no problem repealing. Unless of course you’d force a child to term? Which I guess you would
@Ivan Connolly: surely 1 is enough.
@The Risen: a 12 year old rape victim described as a ‘woman’ by Ronan Mullen on TV last week
@Pharmy: Which only proves that a blanket law for this is totally wrong and that the only way that women can solve their own crisis is to be trusted to look after it in the way that they so choose even if it goes against what others believe they should or should not do, or whether or not it’s the rest of the world’s social responsibility to dictate to them what they should do in such a situation. How do you know she still wouldn’t have trauma or mental health issues including post natal depression (those prone to depression or traumatised are prone to it) even if she had carried her child to term? There’s too many people trying to turn shades of grey into black and white on both sides of this issue. The only sensible answer i can see is to hand this to the people it affects and not those who think they know best for society in general. Yes what about what about what about the babies. I know. I know trust me.
It’s the only close to right thing to do in a situation where probably nothing will ever be right. Termination is never right or ok, it’s sometimes the only choice for people though and that’s their business. So stop the madness.
@Dermot Lane: To be fair, he has limited experience with girls or women in his closet.
@Gav Quinn: so you are suggesting that the better solution to one child having a baby is to kill another. Its a curious logic which is clearly what separates the votes.
@David Edwards: the point is that those who wish a no vote believe that the life of the unborn child has a validity that can’t be simply eradicated because of whatever unfortunate circumstance led to their conception. This is the defining point of the no campaign. That no harm done to one individual can be alleviated by the denial of life of another. If you believe it is a human child inside the womb then it is a fair position to argue that that life is as valid as any other and should not be extinguished merely because of a crime against another. We don’t even believe that a convicted murderer should be executed yet from the perspective of those who believe a baby exists inside the womb the yes campaign are asking us to terminate an innocent life. Easy to see the polarisation.
@Ivan Connolly: There is no tidy solution and so we have to legislate for the very difficult choices that all women (not just 12 year old rape victims) have to make when they have a crisis pregnancy. The best solution is to provide a choice for that 12 year old to make with her parents and her doctor. Or for the 43 year old mother to make with her partner and her doctor. Or for the 24 year old living in extreme poverty. Or for the 35 year old who never wanted children and contraception failed her. Or Or Or…
@Ivan Connolly: what gav is suggesting as are we all on the yes side is that we allow that 12 year old and their parents the CHOICE of “killing another baby” as you put thats all. Maybe they would avail of the abortion maybe they won’t thats not the point of what were trying to get across
Since you chose not to respond to gavs other question I can only assume then your totally OK with forcing a 12 year old rape victim to full term.
@Anthony McGovern: yes exactly. For me it is the lessor of two evils. The 12 year old girl has a chance at a normal life the terminated baby clearly does not.
@Ivan Connolly: any idea what a pregnancy does to a 12 year olds body? Normal life is the least likely scenario.
@The Risen: RTE are pro choice organization and believe its their contribution to society to influence voters as they did in the presidential election and other elections . RTE is full of overrated journalists and full of family and friends of presenters whose partners are working for government ministers and Sinn Fein
No side are coming across more and more like total whac jobs. We haven’t suffered much on voting irregularities in the past but you’d be concerned about some factions and the stunts they might be capable of. Hope it all runs smoothly.
@Toon Army: It’s really very simple, she either turned up at the RTÉ studios last night willing to take part in the debate or she did not. If she did not then she clearly pulled out of this debate and anything else out of her mouth cannot be trusted.
@Toon Army: We can expect zero compassion for women in tonight’s debate from Maria Steen and Ronan Mullen, but endless compassion for foetuses. Also expect sneering body language and only one side interrupting the other.
@Boyne Sharky: that’s great. thanks for clearing that up.
@Ivan Connolly: No worries buddy. Remember, the Iona Institute, advocating ‘pulling out’ for the pas 2,000 years.
And of course this propaganda can’t be challenged in any way. Lies and spin is all they’ve got left.
@KEV: The entire No campaign has been based on lies and spin,
She says none of us want to be like the United Kingdom but we are happy for them to do our dirty work. We owe the United Kingdom for looking after our women when we fail to do it.
@brian boru: your reference to “dirty work” regarding abortion of irish children in the Uk is very apt. Clearly cannot be given the euphemism so often heard of “healthcare “.
@Jeremy DeChad: The World healthcare organisation deems it as health care.But you know better then them of course
@brian boru: totally agree with you .It is dirty work, especially as it’s been shown that most women go to the UK for socioeconomic reasons. Surely it’s not beyond our collective wit to devise laws to cater for the “hard cases” or at least look at jurisdictions like Germany who have legislated for hard cases. 12 weeks unrestricted is too much. I’m voting no for that reason although I’m for repeal.
@Trish O’Leary-Dunne: ok so being pregnant is an illness then. In that case everyone should be given a termination right. I certainly would not be guided by what the WHO say in regard to this issue. Hope that is ok. Vote no to save thousands or Irish lives each year.
@Jeremy DeChad: medical care/procedures/treatments apply to more than just illness; there’s injuries, degenerative conditions, malformation, deformation, etc.
For instance: ankyloglossia is not an illness or an injury but it still requires treatment in the form of frenotomy.
@Trish O’Leary-Dunne: WHO also chastised ireland for its inhuman treatment of women yet another UN organisation for the advancement of women saw fit to recognise the value of a stellar country for women like Saudi Arabia. the UN and its various bodies are deeply political and not exactly organisations whose position is to be considered entirely objective.
@Trish O’Leary-Dunne: How do you call it healthcare? FFS,
@Jeremy DeChad: ah semantics, no it’s not, as you well know. Neither is going for a yearly checkup, but that’s still Healthcare.
@Jerriko17: impossible with the eighth amendment in place, vote to repeal and you can make every election about getting the legislation you want
Dr Peter Boylan was allowed on Claire Byrne and the Late Late show debates but RTE think having Marie Steen on for a second time is unfair ?
@Ciaran O ‘Reilly: Maria was also due on TV3 today. What is more interesting is that they had a number of female contributors in the audience but none wanted to step up.
@Ciaran O ‘Reilly: she was to be on a second time on the late late tonight but she “pulled out”…
@Pilib: perhaps “pulling out” I to be their next well thought out argument.
@Paul Fahey: LOL
@Daithi: Its early and I’ve only had one coffee but why has Maria Steen pulled out of TV3 debate?Tbh I can’t keep up…..
@mairead byrne: I think she tried to pull out to prove her commitment to Iona’s media channel, but it backfired. She’s too much of the “only barrister here” pride to go back now. They should get Katie on, as she didn’t come across as nasty or patronising last night at all.
@mairead byrne: she pulled out because she felt she had been poorly treated by pat kenny on his radio show. No other mystery to it.
@Pilib: Bloody do gooder.
@Ciaran O ‘Reilly: Katie Ascough was there last night as if she’s some sort of authority. I don’t think that the media should be giving voices to these religious lobby groups. They’re not representing anyone but themselves. There’s big money in the far-right, that’s why they do it.
@Paul Fahey: baaahahaha. I had a good laugh at that one.
@Gav Quinn: There were as many direct family members of Iona in that audience than there were RTE staffers in the Toy Show. It’s almost like RTE offer a bunch of tickets to this small group to give the impression that they represent some members of the public.
@Gav Quinn: well RTÉ put their whole resources behind the West Brit’s yes machine
In the pale where this will be decided
I watched the debate and thought Harris was awful, so that was very disappointing. Peadar Tóibín by contrast was much more composed and I felt he presented his arguments much better.
@Nick Drake: You are very much in the minority with that view but I guess being blinkered suits the no side.
@Nick Drake: you must have watching a different debate so
@Nick Drake: Yes, he was very clear that he would be happy to force a rape victim (even a child) to carry full term. He was very clear that he was more interested in telling us about his involvement with the rape crisis centre in Meath than looking at the actual issue he was asked to discuss.
Harris was convincing in his compassion for Irish women. I didn’t need any more reason to vote Yes, but if I was on the fence, last night’s debate would have been one.
@Nick Drake: on the contrary. Was pleasantly surprised by Harris. And I despise the man. Had his facts down and presented them well, dispelling some of the myths – something that was missing on both sides a lot. Peadar, by contrast, usually reasoned lost his composure. His socio-economic arguments for a no vote were bonkers given the current restrictions disproportionately affect poorer women who are forced to leave the country to access the healthcare they need.
@Nick Drake: Harris wiped the floor with him. Peadar just kept reverting back to the same lines.
@Nick Drake: No strong feelings on Harris generally but I really thought he was excellent last night.
In fairness the 2 speakers were pretty respectful to each other which was good to see.
@Johnny Leddin: Boring and predictable.
@Nick Drake: you must have been watching a different debate. As much as I don’t like Harris he was an excellent debater and Tobin waffled and evaded direct questions.
@Caitriona Smith: I was watching the debate on rte 1 last night, byt I guess it’s a matter of perspective how one side is perceived against another. I do think that some of the audience members were good from both side. For me I would have liked to have seen much more intelligent and fleshed out debate between healthcare professionals rather politicians.
@Nick Drake: “Boring and predictable.”. I suppose it’s understandable that you’d think that if you were expecting the CBLive version of Jeremy Kyle round 2. Yes side were very good.
That psychiatrist on the no side who basically said she didn’t think mental health was an issue needs to be investigated. Astonishing stuff
@John Mc Avinue: there were many women on twitter who suffered with mental health problems in pregnancy that were absolutely incensed by her contribution. The biggest killer of new mothers is suicide. Shocking woman.
@John Mc Avinue: I was referring to Johnny Leddins reply to me as boring and predictable. But if you want to go off on a tangent don’t let me stop you .
@EvieXVI: I personally find his involvement with any Rape Crisis Center very disturbing. Again, speaking for myself, I wouldn’t be inclined to turn to any center he is involved with or hopes to be involved with, if he is representative of how they would treat rape victims. As it is, women are unlikely to report their rape or seek help after rape. There should be a serious amount of official distancing from him and his forced pregnancy views.
@Nick Drake: I’m glad he had such a negative effect on the No side. I would be worried if Tobin came across even half as well. And I am completely anti FG.
@Nick Drake: fake profile
@Nick Drake: Maybe Simon was more emtional after listening to real people tell him what happened to them when their babies were diagnosed with life threatening illnesses in the womb, of course he was more emotional than someone rehearsed and far away from the issue.
@Carol Oates: Indeed. Forced pregnancy is just another form of rape i.e. a violation, where a woman’s body is used by someone else without her consent and with potential to cause serious harm to her mental and/ or physical health. Anyone who does not understand bodily autonomy should not be working next nor near a Rape Crisis Centre.
@Nick Drake: Thankfully the majority seem to disagree with you. I though Harris was considered, educated, had well thought out balanced arguments and delivered with conviction. Toibin on the other hand just spoke of his personal beliefs, which is not strong enough to decide on such important issues. I do not want legislators speaking with only their hearts, logic is far too important. VOTE YES
@Nick Drake: Harris was a disgrace, wouldn’t let anyone else speak, shaking his head and interrupting when opposition spoke and smirking. What does this man have to be smirking about? He is about to sign off on the deaths of thousands and hundreds of thousands of healthy babies and all the while women are dying in this country from the cancer scandal. A horrible little vampire of a man.
@M: Lol, at least I use my real name.
Cora’s solution is to keep on sending thousands of Irish women to the UK for a safe procedure that the woman could get here
That solution is to keep on seeing more Irish women (% wise) have terminations on that “fully formed” *non viable* foetus that she “adores”
k
@Francis Mc Carthy: you could view it that way OR you could view it that thousands of boys and girls lives would be saved by not voting for unrestricted abortion on demand.
@Greg Kelly: If a woman wants an abortion, she will get an abortion. So why force her to feck across to the UK on a boat in her time of need.
@Wayne: yes agree but what about people who are wavering. The 8th provides the support and time that they need and thereby saved hundreds of thousands of lives and probably the mental health of the mothers associated.
Thanks for the reply Greggers :)
Dr Lohr at the Oireachtas meeting gave the first two facts below :
1) “Nearly a third of abortions (31%) for women from the Republic of Ireland are performed at 10 weeks and over, compared to 20% for women resident in England and Wales. <- why do "pro life" people that "adore" the "fully formed" foetus want this to continue ?
2) “In contrast, the majority of early abortions provided for Irish women are performed surgically – 71%, compared to 28% for women resident in England and Wales. <- why do you want Irish women to have the 'surgical abortion' which the vast majority of you "pro life" people constantly give out about ?
3) Why do you want to take away a human right from the woman the moment that she becomes pregnant ?
@Jeremy DeChad: How has the 8th saved hundreds of thousands of lives, sure its only been around since the 80′s? Please provide stats to backup that claim.
@Mark McDermott: avg birth rate 13.5 per thousand x avg population 3.5m x conservative difference in abortion rate between ireland and the uk 1/8 x 34 yrs = 200k since 1983 or 300k if u run it back to the uk abortion act in 1967.
@Mark McDermott: Their logic tells them that every child born since the 8th was enacted was only born because it was in place.. They think people are going to be queuing up for abortions like it’s black friday if the amendment is repealed.
@Wayne: “So why force her to feck across to the UK on a boat in her time of need.?”
Isn’t that obvious?? She had sex when they didn’t want to procreate so she must be punished. /s
@Greg Kelly: why do you think anyone would be ‘saved’ as you put it? If an abortion can’t happen here, it will happen in the UK. You’re logic is totally bogus. Interesting to see every single argument from the no side unravelling at the last minute
@Jeremy DeChad: actually the 8th puts pressure on women to rush into a decision because of the time constraints associated with travelling. Local and supportive care is what gives people time to be calm and considerate. The 8th has saved nothing
@Greg Kelly: so, you can stick your head in the sand or, not stick your head in the sand. If the 8th remains, women will still be going to the UK and they won’t have the support and care that would be provided for them if the 8th was repealed. Studies have found that, where abortion was legalized in a country that, those seeking it and being offered support in their own country, the abortion rates actually went down. Imagine that, repealing the 8th, giving women options and support for those options could actually reduce the rate of abortions. But that’s not what you want to hear, so go for the “killing babies” crap that you are spooing, I am sure you feel all self righteous. It’s all about you anyway, isn’t it. I mean, women only get in the way of “men’s talk”…
@Greg Kelly: aw bless did you forget about the restrictions and limitations again? You really should try to actually read the legislation. Although I feel you’re like Peadar,just here to throw out alternatives that you would also fight tooth and nail against.
@M: you really believe that. Incredible. Look at the interview on channel 4 news yesterday with an Irish woman recounting her experience regarding this very subject.
The Love Boats to Britain campaign wouldn’t want their lies challenged on live television.
@Ruairi Gagarin: The No campaign in now in public meltdown with their infighting. This has now turned into a fight between Sherlock and Steen. They are scheduled to get it on in the Archbishops garden at 3pm this afternoon. Cardinal Brady will be officiating. Limited communion and wine available. Tickets 10 euro.
@Inanimate Carbon Rod: Toolbox comment from chief spanner
Looks like she was shafted by her side. If she didn’t pull out why did she not appear?
@DJ François: agreed, if she didn’t pull out she must have been prevented by her own side, but whatever the reason it backfired spectacularly.
@Paul Fahey: and why go to her brother’s personal blog instead of a news website? I think they are shrinking back into their holes watching society mature around them, and they just can’t take it.
@Gulliver Foyle: Her brother runs theliberal.ie ! (which is ultra conservative….a deception by the religious elite on the public)
@Niall O’Neill: it is literally just him on his laptop!
Repeal the 8th. Vote YES.
She chickened out.
@O Swetenham: I can see your point there but we do not know that for sure. Maybe she lost her rosary beads and is still looking for them
@O Swetenham: she’s going to have a tough time at her stakeholder’s meeting for loveboats, but then again – a trip to the states is a trip to the states!
She urges no voters to “unite”
There must be trouble in HQ .
Good
@Mr Jerry Curtin: In desperation they hope Maria Steen will somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat and win a marvelous debate. It won’t happen.
I took the time last night to watch over an hour of her previous debates, too much coffee, don’t ask, it was clear that although she’s a competent debater, she’s nothing special. She relies upon her ‘reputation’ and repeatedly tries to hammer home a few points, if she doesn’t get her way she becomes quite the bully. She has on a few occassions subtly threatened people that she’s a lawyer and would take legal action against them.
Can she be beaten in a debate? Yes, and it wouldn’t be that difficult either, however make no doubt about it she’ll do her homework so the opposition had better be prepared too.
There were several hours prior to the debate where Ms Sherlock or anyone from the No campaign could have corrected RTÉ’s statement. They could have said: “There’s been a big misunderstanding, but Cora will be there as scheduled.” Instead, the offered Maria Steen and threw a hissy fit when she was rejected. And Cora Sherlock was nowhere to be found until she released this statement via her brother’s ridiculous little organ.
Cora didn’t pull out so RTE had to abort the debate!!
(Part of the debate, poetic licence)
The debate last night was another win for the No side. Fair play to them.
Harris & Co were exposed for all the manipulation and lies. In the last 30 seconds tried to guilt the public again by using rape and ffa.
Ffa cases can be amended in the constitution. Rape cases can be amended in the constitution. Instead the government choose the lazy option where they have a chance to make a profit from peoples misery. He stays true to his track record as health minister. The Yes side do care about women but this guy is a fake. He is just using the lot of you.
@Jonathan: It thought it was very interesting how Dr Trevor Hayes presented a scenario where he would need to make a decision to protect the mother, how he would not allow the situation to even get to the ‘cold face’, as he put it, he would move early and make the call. In his view, the law as it stands does work. I would have liked to have seen a bit more debating between himself and Dr Mary Higgins who also has a unique perspective.
@Jonathan: No. That exact point you’re making was addressed last night. That’s not how the constitution works. You think we’re all being fooled by Harris, as if people didn’t have an opinion on this subject before he was around? No, try again.
@Jonathan: Delusional
@Nick Drake: he has a highly disproportionate amount of C sections under his care. He described being at a woman’s uterus being at the “coal face”! I don’t want that thanks. His ego is so big he doesn’t doubt himself. Horrible man.
@O Swetenham: Wrong, Harris did not answer the question and started talking about legislation which is different. You CAN amend, replace insert or repeal wording in the constitution. Isn’t that what we are being asked to do this Friday?
@Greg Kelly: Too late now,Greggers
Why do you want to take away a human right from the woman ?
@Greg Kelly: Well perhaps if Cora was there she could have clarified matters for me. But she wasn’t. You can amend the constitution in a referendum. Not go over it with a bottle of tippex.
@Greg Kelly: focus on the pedantics, and you miss the point of this referendum. Anyway, I think Harris did excellent in representing all Ireland, especially as he is the less articulate and clear of the two last night. Believe it or not, a lot of yes voters actively dislike fg, and Harris in particular due to his teachers pet demeanor, but he did an excellent job last night. Peadar spoke well, but the message has too many holes in the argument, and the script answers didn’t work.
@Deborah Behan: agree. I’m paraphrasing here but he called the midwives “my midwives” and he also said that the 8th protects him! Surely it should be protecting his patients. He came across as very egotistical
@Jonathan: I must have watched a different debate. The no side showed their true colours last night, Repeating the same lies over and over and when faced with facts they changed the subject very quickly.
@M to the O to the L: YEah I was shocked to hear him say it protected him.. FFS like.
@Jonathan: you can’t “Amend” an Amendment in a Constitution. Just like you can’t bring in legislation to deal with “the hard cases”, as what is in the Constitution overrides that stuff completely.
To make changes to an Amendment requires a Referendum, that’s how democracy works. If you want to bring in a better approach to the 8th you first need to remove the 8th and then have legislation brought in that addresses all the scenarios better than the 8th currently does.
@Nick Drake: Dr Trevor Hayes lost my interest when he said the 8th amendment protects him. That shows the blindness that there is to the issues it causes. It may protect you, Dr Hayes, but it doesn’t protect women.
Cannot wait to see what Ronan will do now that he has been left holding the bag….deserted by the wummin who have fled the fort. I am sure they would appreciate a few sandwiches on the side of the hill. As for the Liberal ….confirming something as fact….priceless just made my day.
What’s happened here is John McGuirk tried to pull a bait and switch,putting Coras nose out of joint in the process.The public face of the No side is full of people who would rather be front and centre of a losing campaign than on the sidelines of a winning one,their place on the Irish media circuit(and their finances) is dependent on the cult following them and their organisations have.Thats why they’ve spent the campaign pandering to voters they already had in the bag and ignoring the undecideds who they’d need to win,but would be no use to them outside of this campaign.
@Michael Hennessy: It’s not like Sherlock (never practiced Solicitor) or Steen (apparently called to the bar 20 years ago, before the internet, but no record of any public cases and certainly no entitlement to use the title BL as not registered) can fall back on their day jobs.
@Gulliver Foyle: Actually – I found one case! but it seems to have been requested to be erased under the right to be forgotten law. She was an interested observer (amicus curiae) in the case of the legality of 16-year olds being used to entrap shops selling cigarettes, where the judge allowed her as a BL (2007). Other than that, the only qualification prior to that was an Architecture degree, and I literally cannot find her being called to the bar anywhere.
If that doesn’t qualify someone to represent the whole country in a national debate, I don’t know what does.
@Gulliver Foyle: Barrister is a qualification. If she qualified from the Kings Inns she was conferred BL. She doesn’t need to practice to have the letters after her name.
@Stephen Adam: What is her current job? Is it as a barrister?
More lies for Jesus from the anti-choice brigade.
@O’Boyle Darragh: @The Risen:miss c – abortion worse than rape. Fought and obtained a death cert for her baby whom she was forced to abort
#VOTENO
@Ismise Máire: Ms. C had no choice. It’s the exact same as someone who wants an abortion but isn’t allowed to have one. Like Ireland right now. #VOTE-YES
@Ismise Máire: Abortion worse than rape? Are you for real? Demented fool
I love the way they call themselves Love Both and Pro Life. They should be called the Control Freeks.
@Jack Jackson: They can call themselves what they like in Ireland. Apparently in every other country, they would be barred from calling themselves “Lolek Ltd, trading as Iona Institute”, and they would just be Lolek (as there is already a successful company called Iona).
“There is no abortion in Ireland due to the 8th amendment”
For those that may not be aware
Its because we outsource Abortion it to England
English solution to an Irish Problem
If more people pulled out there would be no need for a referendum.
@Cathal: Easier said than done I’m afraid
RTE should have forced her to appear on the show weather she liked it or not, the same way she’s forcing women you carry unwanted pregnancies!!
Ms Sherlock says she didn’t pull out of the debate. RTE say that she did. Giving both the benefit of the doubt: who told RTE that Ms Sherlock was not available? Did they try to confirm directly? Why wasn’t it sorted out before it hit the media? Just curious … …
@Pharmy: Do you honestly trust a word out of Cora’s mouth? Serious question. She has a reputation for lying.
Maybe now Cora realises that pulling out is not always reliable
@Kay Murphy: Noice!!
I wish people would refrain from referring to cora et al as pro life…they are most definitely NOT. They are FORCED BIRTHERS.
They have, as has rcc dev mcquaid brigade, shown themselves to have no regard for people once they are born. Dump them in septic tanks, sell them to the highest american bidder, sexually abuse them, beat them, lock them up & use them as unpaid servants, the list is endless.
Stop the farce of the ‘Irish solution to an Irish problem’ – that is having other countries provide the solution. Medical/healthcare decisions are rightly between a woman, her Dr. & her beliefs- not your beliefs nor mine but hers. No one in Ireland is going to be forced to terminate a pregnancy if they do not to. Vote YES on 25th
Yeah, yeah Cora, no doubt Steen will appear later with some concocted story too.
Cora is pro-life but not pro-live unfortunately
Coras father did not pull out thats for sure, otherwise she would have ended up battling hundreds of other tiny Sherlocks at the tip of a johnny.
Cora was probably afraid she’d have to explain that loopy Facebook video from the other day where she blatantly lied about Ed Sheeran being for the No side and making a video in Galway supporting them. Shouting at Ed Sheeran fans in the Phoenix Park that they’re idiots. She has no standard for truth or honesty. I’m glad this joke of a person didn’t debate the 8th on TV. There’s been enough farce in this. People are conflicted and need honest information, not made-up stories.
Ha ha, what a moron!
No side is getting scared and desperate because they know they have no argument when we stick to the facts and not hyperbole.
This is a referendum about whether Irish women will have their health services in Ireland or the UK.
Well for her to not show up and use her arguments from the comfort of her own home without allowing anyone to refute! #trustwomen #repeal
I think that Iona told her she would have been displaced by Maria Steen to do the discussion.
RTE didn’t fall for that trick and it backfired.
That could be the reason for Maria to pull out of
This evening’s debate to avoid awkward questions.
Cora the Coward pulled out to help create a narrative that the No Side are victims. Simon Harris spoke very well last night, and dealt with the Dealz Version of Simon Coveney nicely.
They cannot debate using facts, so they instead rely on emotional outbursts and lies.
If there’s one thing we know about the NO side in this and the marriage equality ref – they are ALL about lies and half truths. Nothing they say can be taken at face value EVER
Ha, ‘Pull out’ / ‘Pulled out’ now used twice now in similar articles, such an apt choice of words!
Maria Steen etc actually work for a company called Lolek Ltd, which is funded by some conservative American billionaires and using the legal trading name of Iona Institute. It’s not really an institute and for example under IK law wouldn’t be allowed call itself one. Lolek incidentally is the diminutive of Karol in Polish. I have no idea if she ever practiced as a barrister, does anyone?
No campaign tried to blackmail RTE into hosting an ineligible panellists. RTE stood firm. Read between the lines, people.
Disgraceful action by RTE . The inescapable fact is that abortion = death. No matter how much spin or word play the militant Yes campaign put on it. Yes means death
Abortion means death.
No one with an ounce of humanity should legalise death on such innocent babies.
@Trevi Fountain: 1 in 2 pregnancies ends in spontaneous abortion. Why doesn’t the church organise rituals to bless the women’s periods to ensure the 50% of human embryos that are aborted by nature (or god depending on your belief system) can go to heaven?
Why doesn’t the church have dedicated consecrated ground for all these aborted “babies”? Why is it that the overwhelming majority of women don’t even notice the embryos in their periods – they simply toss the tampon or sanitary towel in the bathroom bin. Why is god killing half of all the human “babies” he creates?
Why is the church so fixated on the tiny number of abortions that are carried out by women in a crisis pregnancy when god is killing 99% of the others that are aborted?How can anyone equate a woman’s life to an embryo when you know the reality of mass natural abortion? It’s time to remove the 8th from our constitution – we’re no longer living in a theocracy – we need to become a fully independent democracy.
@MaryF: I genuinely feel sorry for you. You seem to blame God for everything. I did not mention the Church, you did. The reality is that the fetus , embryo is a baby! Not to be thrown in the bin as you heartlessly suggest. I for one do not want the murder of another human life on my conscience.
@Trevi Fountain: “The reality is that the fetus , embryo is a baby! ” Do you also think that an egg is a chicken?
@O’Boyle Darragh: Good point. But the thing is we all know the point in time when we consider that an egg turns into a chicken. When exactly does a foetus turn into a baby? Can you enlighten us?
How ridiculous your comment is. The fetus/embryo does not magically ‘turn into’ a baby. The life is there from the beginning.
@Trevi Fountain: I don’t blame god for anything. I’m just stating some facts, you know those inconvenient things that ideologists who want to keep the 8th like to ignore. Don’t bother feeling “genuinely” sorry for me, I don’t need pity from someone who believes in fairies.
@Trevi Fountain: The potential for a baby is there you mean, given that god or nature (depending on what each person believes in) aborts 1 in 2 of every human ever conceived. Statistically, half the women who have ever lived have had a natural abortion in the first 12 weeks but we don’t have anyone out campaigning for funeral rites.
Pulling out?
You really couldnt make it up
What happened then if she didn’t pull out?
LoveBirth are a bunch of liars. They lied on their posters, they lied and said they weren’t religious, they lied and said same sex couples’ kids are likely to be on drugs or have mental illness, they lie about her pulling out. So they sent a MAN to argue against women. Says it all.
Vote YES for women, to push back against the Far-Right creeping into the fray.
shut out the noise and stay focused.. I have to assume after last night’s debate she’s talking about facts?? I feel a lot better after it about the referendum. Not a fan of Simon Harris at all but he was well able for the lies and got to reply to them for the most part. I do still worry about the aftermath.
Looks like a hostage video
You dont need debates, people will make up their own minds on polling day,why are the TDs only in Grafton Street for photo shoots, the brown envelopes must be very big on this one
A question to people who use the “I’d vote yes if it was for rape victims, child abuse victims, and FFA but I won’t vote yes for anyone else” – do you not realise that by voting No, you are DENYING THOSE CASES TOO?!?
@Shannon Mcg: You have heard about the term “lessor of two evils”?
If No wins on Friday don’t blame all the “No” voters.
A lot of the blame should go to the government who “out-sourced” their decision making process to a biased third party and have wound up tying the hands of many people who can’t limit their sense of compassion to only the feotuses who’ve already made it out of the womb alive.
@Nydon: Outsourced? Did you miss the bit about the Oireachtas Committee and then the vote by our democratically elected parliament?
@Nydon: so the blame for a No win would lie with those that voted Yes? Odd.
After watching the video I am none the wiser as to why she pulled out of debate as it was nothing more than a pitch for a no vote.
If she really has something of value to add to debates she should have turned up as all sides must be heard by the electorate.
@Terry Cunningham: she can’t be asked questions in a prerecorded video.
Sooner this referendum is over and done with and we can go back to slagging off Trump the better!
I will rally everyone to get in and Vote on Friday!
Look what happens when people don’t get out and vote…!!
Trump!
Brexit!
Vote and Vote YES!
THE no side seem to have timed the run in to election day very impressively just suspicious that a type of professional system or organization may be behind it !
@Johnny Mason: explain how they have been impressive please.
To me it seems they have imploded and infighting has started.
In a still born court case due to negligence,HSE claimed the baby was not a person before birth,only for the 8th they would have got off with negligence.this is very worrying.
She wanted Steen to replace her but she didn’t “pull out”. Hmmmm
LETS All get a grip of ourselves ,its not about political point scoring .we are making the decision come friday on the life and death of unborn irish citizens .vote NO and protect life .keep the 8th
@Anthony Gallagher: We’re not actually. We’re voting on whether or not to remove the 8th amendment (a catholic church-led addition to our constitution). Only after the 8th is repealed will the government start working on legislation. The proposed legislation has to be debated by all sides in government and agreement has to be reached. The final legislation concerning abortion is likely to be the most conservative on the planet given the number of ministers who are supporting the No campaign. YES is for Demcracy and No is to for Theocracy – I want to live in a bona fide republic and not be governed by the catholic church.
2 men debating abortion lol you couldn’t make it up.
She spent weeks asking Simon Harris to debate her & her “LoveBoat” gang & now she runs away .
She gave her pathetic statement to her brother Leo Sherlock & his racist scaremongering evil website theliberal.ie. One of his many fake news articles on his site ,was a frictionus of a riot by hundreds of black teenagers, on Mary Street on St.Stephens day 2016. He was also the idiot in the Trump hat in the audience who was clapping & cheering as Katie Hopkins defended Trump’s sexual assaults on women.
How many of these pro-life commenters are simply two sweaty auld lads in the basement of the Iona institute?
What a sham…Can I say that yesterday there was a protest outside Trinity for the Pro Abortion side….it was called ‘High five for Repeal… anyone who agreed walked by and was to high five and do a dance….I just found this so disturbing to think that people would celebrate the potential removal of all right to Life of all unborn babies…to see them celebrate what will effectively be abortion on demand up to 6months is chilling….how did we get to this….Just VOTE NO and force government to legislate for the hard cases….
@Salubrious: voting no means they can’t legislate for hard cases but you already knew that
When the YES vote wins we need to think about logistics and public financing.
There are 5 major maternity hospitals in Ireland. As we already know, there is one abortion for every 4 newborns in the UK. This is the European average too. Rather than running an abortion service in each hospital, couldn’t we simply convert one of these 5 hospitals into an abortion clinic? Given the controversies over finding a new location for the National Maternity Hospital, I see this as an ideal candidate for the National Abortion Clinic. Also, much of the support for abortion seems to come from it’s current and past obstetricians, like Peter Boylan (could we get him to run it?). Plus
if it is kept in the Dublin 4 area, then it would be in the optimal catchment area. There would be a huge saving in costs – no need for intensive care units or pediatricians, for example.
@Hapax: 1 in 2 pregnancies ends in spontaneous abortion. Why doesn’t the church organise rituals to bless the women’s periods to ensure the 50% of human embryos that are aborted by nature (or god depending on your belief system) can go to heaven?
Why doesn’t the church have dedicated consecrated ground for all these aborted “babies”? Why is it that the overwhelming majority of women don’t even notice the embryos in their periods – they simply toss the tampon or sanitary towel in the bathroom bin. Why is god killing half of all the human “babies” he creates?
Why is the church so fixated on the tiny number of abortions that are carried out by women in a crisis pregnancy when god is killing 99% of the others that are aborted?How can anyone equate a woman’s life to an embryo when you know the reality of mass natural abortion? It’s time to remove the 8th from our constitution – we’re no longer living in a theocracy – we need to become a fully independent democracy.
@Hapax: Hey! Looks like you took my advice from yesterday on board and shortened your attempt at “reverse psychology” spiel.
Nice touch with the “National Abortion Clinic”, I’m sure you’ll hit a nerve with that one.
@Hapax: You admitted under this article that you’re a No voter but you do have a bright future in sci-fi writing.
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-pill-questions-4002257-May2018/
If she didnt pull out of the programme where was she? Hiding under the desk!
Healthy pregnant women aborting Healthy unborn sons and daughters, is just Wrong , if you wouldnt kill a child outside the womb , why do you think its ok to kill an innocent child inside the womb,
@Elvis Polkasalad: seeing as a foetus is not recognized by either church or state until after 24 weeks, your argument that women are killing ‘children’ is illogical
@Elvis Polkasalad: Another comrade with a dodgy account that can’t be clicked through to. Tell us “Elvis” are you happy for children to be forced to continue with a pregnancy? That is what the 8th does. Except that what actually happens is they are sent abroad for the termination and we all remain morally superior here. A 12 week old fetus is under 6cm in length and weighs less than 14 grams. Smaller than your little finger. It is not a human being with dreams and fears and feelings.
More lies by the yes to death camp. The Church recognises and protects life from conception to natural death.
@Terri McCormick O’Gorman: what do you mean by state recognition here? The 8th recognises and protects life up to 24 weeks and beyond at the moment. The state will recognise life up to 12 weeks after the new legislation comes in but will legalise the act of ending that life for no reason. Vote No to prevent this.
@Trevi Fountain: Ah Comrade Trevi, welcome to the conversation. I think you may know Comrade Elvis above as you have a number of similarities. FYI I don’t give a toss about your “church” and your imaginary friends. They are not relevant to the laws of a republic.
@Trevi Fountain: Only since 1869. Before that the catholic church did not prohibit abortion before “ensoulment” which THEY believed occurred around week 12 for most of history. In 1591, Pope Gregory XIV determined ensoulment only occurred at 166 days of pregnancy which corresponds with the UK upper limit on abortion: 24 weeks. To make it even more interesting, the catholic church had different ensoulment periods for boys and girls (I’ll let you guess which gender got a soul first). Several catholic saints were known to have practised abortion on women (making the unborn and unsouled being magically disappear). The church presents lots of its beliefs as set in stone, but when you pick up a book (even the bible) you quickly realise that nothing in the church was set in stone and constantly evolves.
Just as I’m being asked keep in mind the Irish women and even girls that I will be “forcing” to carry a baby to full term by voting No (and I do keep this in mind always) the people who will be voting Yes should also keep in mind the additional human lives that they will also be “forcing” to die due to providing easier access to abortion in Ireland.
Don’t assume that all abortions are by the mother’s choice.
Some abortions are forced on the mother by social deprivation, abusive partners or strict parents and these will leave the woman or girl feeling devastated and suicidal afterwards.
Just like the dilemma that the Yes side keep trying to guilt people like me with, remember “her body her choice” won’t always absolve you from responsibility for every abortion you will be facilitating.
@Nydon: Yes support aren’t forcing anyone to do anything. They’re simply voting to give control back to women on what to do with a crisis pregnancy. With regards to abortion numbers, these are unlikely to change – it’s just that our sisters, mothers, daughters, nieces, grand-daughters, neighbours, friends and collegues won’t have to swallow dodgy abortion pills they purchase on the internet and won’t have to travel to the UK. Worldwide, abortion rates are almost identical in countries who permit or who prohibit abortion (i.e. prohobition doesn’t stop abortion – it’s just makes it unsafe). Prohibition didn’t work for alcohol either in the USA. The countries with the lowest rate of abortion (like Switzerland) are those where it is legal and where good support systems are in place for women and girls with crisis pregnancies. Really if it were about reducing abortions, all the No campaigners should be pushing for repeal the 8th and they could put their money where their mouths are and start working to provide the additional supports needed to bring down the abortion rates.
@MaryF:
No problem repealing the 8th.
Major problem with the proposed replacement .
No problem paying extra tax to do all you suggest.
Major problem paying for abortions other than in very limited circumstances.
No matter what you may say to yourself, if Yes wins, yes campaigners will be complicit in forcing some women to have abortions they don’t want to have in Ireland as some women will undoubtedly be coerced by others to have them against their better judgment and you will have made it easier for them.
@Nydon: Even if the 8th is not repealed, there will still be some women who travel to the UK or who take pills here who may later regret it. The law won’t change that issue one way or the other. What repealing the 8th will do is to stop women and girls living in Ireland from having to travel for a safe medical termination and reduce the number of women who take dodgy abortion pills purchased on the internet. The 8th was only added to our constitution due to the catholic church. The church itself had no prohibition on abortion before quickening (week 12-13) for most of the past 2000 years. Quickening was when the foetus became ensouled and this was deemed to happen later for females than for males. The idea that an embryo or foetus was a human being was only introduced by pope piux xi in 1869. In Islam, ensoulment is still considered to occur on day 120 from conception (week 17). Separate to this, there is another reality which is that 50% of all human embryos/foetuses are spontaneously aborted in the first 12 weeks of existence. This is hard to understand from a christian perspective as it implies that god is destroying half of all the human beings he created. Also, more pragmatically, the vast majority of women don’t even notice this happening – they just pass out of the woman’s body in her menstrual cycle. I mention this as I personally think the No campaign is led by religious fervour and hysteria rather than dealing with reality.
Hmm looks like trouble in fools paradise, the secret poll figures must be in
so RTE had two men discussing a referendum about abortion? Why not two polar bears? Would have been just as relevant.
RTE is more dangerous than Pravda or even Trumpy
@Tim Brennan: Greetings Comrade Tim! We have a lot of your friends here. I see we can’t click through to your account either. Ah well.
This is the statement as to why she pulled out:
I still dont know why Sherlock pull out ?
Vote No to political correctness!
The 8th amendment has and will continue to save thousands of lives, the repeal side have, via the media and political elite tried in vain to stifle the debate on the reality of what abortion entails. The ‘hard cases’ can and will be dealt with, abortion on demand is ending human life by choice, vote No to protect LIFE
All this will she l, won’t she is so thrilling I can hardly bare it.
The eighth amendment goes beyond restricting abortion it is a barrier to informed consent in all pregnancies and labour.
#repealthe8th
have your say