Love your word plan on her surname. Very appropriate

Pachal Donohue from FG also denied any input from our lame arsed government asking for loop holes to prevent a referendum – I’m not saying this coalition are liars but i have photos of them with their pants on fire :P

It does indeed. Vincent Browne asked her directly “Did Irish officials…concern themselves in so framing a treaty that would avoid a referendum here?” Her answer: “No”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oy6BfbCGWM

So is Gilmore having second thoughts ?
did he find a vertebrae ?

Chopper

She is a lying Cretin and Liar……I like the pun on the name too :)

@ Dermot Mc would love to see those photos And no-one would spit on them if they were on fire Useless shower of spineless liars and traitors to their own People

Not sly, but utterly necessary. Question, spend the next three to six months debating all manner of eurosceptic canards, some of which may have something to do with this treaty, or focus on getting people back to work? I know which option has my vote.

Well then Des ,Why are they not creating jobs ,instead of creating bills and charges and taxes, that people cannot afford to pay.
Job creation is the only answer. These guys are playing with your life and my life ….
Unless You are in the Happy position of being alright ?
I hope you are not sitting on a false sense of security.

That’s right Eileen because we are not still overspending at all. Oh wait we are.
15-20 billion overspend this year, it’s just crazy to think we need cuts though.

“Impostors and traitors” democratically elected very recently by the people of this country. Who’s gonna ‘evict’ them, hey? You? Your words show nothing but contempt for the constitution and for Irish democracy. You have a problem with the decisions the govt makes then protest them. But these wild accusations you throw about and threats to our constitutional order mark you out as little more than a blow-hard with little respect for our democracy.

“Your words show nothing but contempt for the constitution and for Irish democracy. ”

and actively looking to side-step the constitution doesn’t?

@Paul … The govt is perfectly entitled to negotiate treaties or pass laws that are in conformity with the constitution. That’s what they are the for. Indeed, that’s their first obligation … to act in conformity with Bunreacht an hÉireann. Constitutional referenda are very much a last resort when it is not possible to pass legislation without changing the constitution and therefore directly consulting the people. This is basic constitutional law. It is only the terminally eurosceptic that demand referenda every time someone sneezes in Brussels.

This is hardly akin to someone sneezing in Brussels though is it?
We signing an agreement here that says it’s OK to fine a country if they can’t pay their debts.
How is that ever supposed to work?
It also says the EU has the power to “compel” counties to fall in line.
It’s a very loose agreement, very weak and doesn’t address any of the issues.

While I agree with what you are saying, does that not assume a government that’s acting in the best interests of it’s people?
Can you honestly read that agreement, look at the actions of the government (both past and current) to date and tell me that this agreement is in the best interests of the people of Ireland, and for that matter, the people of Europe?
From where I’m sitting it’s blatantly a ponzi scheme. It doesn’t serve the interests of the people of Europe in any way.
The technical details don’t excuse betraying the people of Ireland.

“A blowhard with little respect for our democracy”??? I think you’re getting me mixed up with someone of the name of Gilmore Desmond. Their disregard for us is blatant. Backing up the man who won a one man race is hardly something to be proud of. We are the government Desmond. We are the people. If those elected do not meet their remit they are the ones with little respect.

Representative Democracy
“The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people’s interest, but not as their proxy representatives nor necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances.”

Gary, this is the second time i will have to correct you on your definition of
representative democracy. You’re a very lazy boy. all u did was bang “representative democracy” into
google and took the first one that popped up….tut tut

this is the LEGAL definition
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. A form of government where the powers of the sovereignty are delegated to a body of men, elected from time to time, who exercise them for the benefit of the whole nation.

Where is all the BS u posted in THIS definition???
Lets see…..proxy……no, don’t see it
mmm….necessarily always according to their wishes…. not that one either

gary, u me boy are a politicians wet dream come true

Who’s legal definition would that be?

Some direct democracy concepts attached.
http://www.realrepublic.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=110&Itemid=276

@paul Mallon … Those are fair points. For me I have no time for the Fiscal Treaty. It contains nothing that cannot already be achieved by the legislative path at either the EU or national level. Indeed, much of its contents have already passed into law, I.e. the so-called fiscal six-pack. The treaty is a requirement for Angela Merkel to. Provide cover for her narrow vision of Europe and her obsolete approach to economics. We wil see how the outcome of the presidential election in France outs a stop to the “expansionary austerity” fantasy. François Hollane, the socialist candidate and current poll leader, has made plain his intention to row back on this treaty. That said, I still would oppose the idea of this treaty being out to a referendum here. Populist referenda are an extraordinarily bad idea. We have very clear rules about when a referendum takes place in Ireland, essentially to change the constitution. That is how we should continue.

So what we need is an effective way to tell the government things need to change? how is that possible?
Riot? Raze Dublin to the ground? Doesn’t seem to be working in Greece, not yet anyway.
Every time I look at what’s going on it looks less and less democratic. Just because there aren’t easy answers doesn’t mean you should carry on down a futile path. But then again, when I talk like that I’m assuming these people have our interests at heart, but they don’t.

This Irish person doesn’t. This Irish person would rather that our own government and European leaders should focus on creating jobs and getting us out of this crisis, rather than indulging the dreary obsessions of the terminally eurosceptic.

This Irish person does.

Dessie baby, i tell you what will be dreary.
Ireland for the next 10 to 20 years. Do u even understand what
the impact of this compact will be for us?
I suspect you don’t.

As for the grubbermint creating jobs??
Please don’t make me laugh. They are too busy now, and with the compact will be too
busy reducing spending and trying to increase taxes to have F all left
for job creation.
If you choose to ignore the hard facts my friend, thats your business.

@Desmond O’Toole What a load of crap! Desmond, where are the jobs that our government promised us from voting yes to the lisbon treaty? This whole “yes to jobs” campaigns that you would undoubtedly spew if a referendum was called tomorrow on this issue is purely a means to scare the electorite into voting for the government.

Desmond I used to believe that referenda were the only way to go on these issues. Each and every referendum I live through I like them less and less. They end up being about anything but the contents of the treaty. It’s bad enough that our own (mysteriously well funded) nutjobs crawl out of the woodwork but we get an influx of opinion from nutjobs all over Europe.
Already there are several claims about this fiscal compact here but I can guarantee you if I ask them to prove their claims I be left waiting.

answer me this gary,

what can u prove about this?

please don’t answer with a question.

Here’s a list of things that were said about the Lisbon, none of which have turned out to be true. Though honestly all I’d have to do is go back the comments in The Journal where large numbers of people said they were voting no to this treaty without reading it. You’ll remember those yourself so I won’t bother.

* The minimum wage would be reduced to €1.84
* Ireland would be forced to engage in military action in something like a terrorist attack
* We would lose our neutrality
* It would create a European superstate
* Abortion would be made legal
* Gay marriage would be made legal
* Euthanasia would be made legal
* The death penalty would be made legal
* The guarantees were not legally binding and would be renaged on
* Michael O’Leary campaigned for the yes side in exchange for being allowed to buy Aer Lingus
* During the canmpaign polls were rigged to make it look like the yes side were ahead
* Turkey would be allowed to join the EU
* The treaty made EU law superior to Irish law (it already was and has been since 1973)
* We would lose the right to referendums
* Our constitution would be null and void
* Healthcare and education would be privatised
* We would be forced to increase military spending
* The charter of human rights would allow the EU to take the homes, assets and children of people with mild intellectual disabilities and alcoholics
* We would lose our veto in all areas
* A new EU army would be created and which would conscript Irish people
* Tony Blair would become the EU president

And of course not forgetting these mysteriously well funded nutjobs. http://www.coircampaign.org/index.php/materials-documents/posters

More waffle from Gary clowry eh?
Don’t feed the troll and his one man campaign

Sorry Gary – not my response.
Lesson learned – do not leave PC running when you go to answer your phone and have “friends” next to the PC

Something I posted that wasn’t factual?

Exactly Gary and you can bet that the same or similar claims will be levied at the Fiscal Treaty if it is put to a referendum. I’m actually looking forward to see what sort of tortured logic that Coir will come up with to claim that the Fiscal Treaty will bring abortion to Ireland. In the meantime, there’s an economy to fix.

… and similarly @Desmond O’Toole, I look forward to the resurrection of the ridiculous “yes to jobs” campaign from the government.

The government complains that referendums are never about the issue at hand … well I can tell you that they are just as bad as the likes of Coir.

The claim about Lisbon being about jobs rests on the argument that retaining Ireland’s position at the heart of the European project (membership of the Single Market, Eurozone and so forth) is essential to our retaining the ability to attract foreign direct investment and offer greater export opps for domestic Irish companies. Whether you agree with that argument or not, or whether you think the pro-parties overplayed it during the last referendum, it is undeniable that it is a plausible and coherent argument. In spite of the economic collapse that came hot on the heels of the Lisbon referendum this country continues to attract a disproportionate amount of FDI and Irish exports to the rest of the EU have held up very well indeed securing jobs and incomes across Ireland.

Now perhaps you might explain the plausible arguments behind the following outrageous claims made by assorted oppositionalists, nationalists and religious fruitcakes during the Lisbon referendum campaigns:

* The minimum wage would be reduced to €1.84
* Ireland would be forced to engage in military action in something like a terrorist attack
* We would lose our neutrality
* It would create a European superstate
* Abortion would be made legal
* Gay marriage would be made legal
* Euthanasia would be made legal
* The death penalty would be made legal
* The guarantees were not legally binding and would be reneged on
* Michael O’Leary campaigned for the yes side in exchange for being allowed to buy Aer Lingus
* During the canmpaign polls were rigged to make it look like the yes side were ahead
* Turkey would be allowed to join the EU
* The treaty made EU law superior to Irish law (it already was and has been since 1973)
* We would lose the right to referendums
* Our constitution would be null and void
* Healthcare and education would be privatised
* We would be forced to increase military spending
* The charter of human rights would allow the EU to take the homes, assets and children of people with mild intellectual disabilities and alcoholics
* We would lose our veto in all areas
* A new EU army would be created and which would conscript Irish people
* Tony Blair would become the EU president

Thanks to Gary for the list!

Its smells dodgy??. For christ sake people, it couldnt smell any more dodgy if they personally shat on you. C’mon people, please, get it into your heads. Its not an outlandish conspiracy theory. Your government has been subverted by the Elite, NWO, banksters, 0.1%; whatever you want to call it to make you feel better, but this is the fact. They do NOT have your interests at heart. They are all about selling your freedom to their masters. They have infiltrated your government and replaced what you think is democracy with a facade that allows you pick the actors in a story already written and has a desireable outcome for them and not you. They only thing they can’t control is YOU the audience and whether you remain seated or take to the stage.. The shows nearly over and its time to act a write the final scene…

OMG NWO WTF!?
Quite clearly your a conspiracy theorist wet dream. I suppose there printing NWO monies now aswell. Smells of shite from here!

Have you actually read the constitution? Do you even know what you mean when you talk about how our democracy works. The constitution sets out very clearly when the people are to be consulted by way of referenda. The govt is perfectly entitled to seek not to trigger those provisions. It is far more important that the govt focus on getting people back to work rather than indulging your obsessions for referenda.

Ed, these guys can’t handle that sort of post – you need to break it down into small steps, preferably at a local level then slowly scale it up as the arguments progress. Stop using words like Elite or New World Order as these words have successfully been fixed in the public conscience as the language of “conspiracy nuts”. As soon as people see those words in your post they’ll brand you a nut as disregard your argument without any further thought.
@Desmond, is democracy working when you’re government wants to sign up to an agreement and then says “wait a minute, we’ll have to hold a referendum if you want this to pass – can you change this bit please?”
Our constitution has provided us with the ability to renegue on this agreement in the future by requiring a referendum for this type of change. If that clause wasn’t there we’d be permanently tied to this ridiculous document.
Have you read the agreement? it’s rubbish – it does nothing to help the people or countries of the EU.

Lets forget about democracy and just get people working, sure they can all get jobs picking potato’s from the field! & Yes Desmond I have read the constitution, many times in fact. Its a great read particularly article 41.2.(2) :)

lol, now, now, lets not resort to trolling Gill. :-D

Paul couldn’t help it :D

I hear you Paul but I don’t believe we have time for people to remove there heads from their brainwashed back sides. They still believe its all because we spend too much on nurses etc. Some people won’t believe it ever. There is not much can be done for those types. They can’t handle the truth and won’t even look for the truth past the main stream media headlines. These are the same people who would have fobbed off the idea that Europe is taking over our country, but the evidence is staring them in the face. They still think its because we have school teachers running government. The same people tried appeasing hitler because they couldn’t believe it could happen to them. Times haven’t changed that much..

Only a free Europe can return to prosperity.
http://www.ifpe.sk/

Article 6.1 of Irelands Consitution.
Note: In final appeal the people the people decide all questions of national policy.
By attempting to circumvent a referendum, the government is showing contempt for the constitution.
-
1. All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.

Pangs of guilt?
This worm would sell his entire family for a pat on the back from the empire he has admitted takes precedence over us.

LOl … Do you even know the difference between the words “negotiate” and “manipulate”? The govt is focussing on the economy, not on indulging those who want to spend the next several months obsessing on how the Fiscal Treaty will,for example, bring abortion to Ireland and the whole sorry array of irrelevant, bullsh*t issues that EU treaty debates throw up. That’s what this citizen voted for.

Sigh, What exactly did you vote for Desmond?
Jot it down because it looks like you were privy to the never seen true mandate FG and labour have.

Desmond O Toole
of course I know the difference …Do you ??
You seem like an educated guy ,college,university, ?
Apply your own brain and not what you have been programmed to use by ”the establishment” .
oh and when we all voted in the General Election ,we had been lied to,so how can You say
” That’s what this citizen voted for.” You were lied to just like I was .

Never in the history of democracy has anyone ever “negotiated” a clause preventing their own people having a say, this Desmond is the difference.
I applaud your wholehearted defence of your government and it’s continuation of FF policy though, it’s kinda cute.

“The govt is focussing on the economy”. Desmond please. Did Bertie leave some of his “Bertie Beer” behind? You are seriously deluded if you think they’re focussing on our economy. They might be focussing on somebody else’s finances. It’s definitely not ours!!!

Yes same thought crossed my mind and He is trying to save his own skin he is as useless as Diarrhoea spewing Pure dung Liar like the rest of them fill your own septic tanks cos we ain’t listening to your lies anymore

Mark Rodgers
With all due respect,I words fail me . You say that I am childish and churlish .I have a few more words to give you an idea as to how I feel right now —-angry ,upset,disappointed,hurt, let down, emotional,alone(although I know I am not) isolated, desperate,useless,redundant, powerless, impotent, .
You know what Mark ,I thank you .Because the more I write the more empowered I feel,the more determined I feel.
I do not feel arrogant or foolish . I am quite content to make my points here Mark .
” you and others have decided that your want and needs must be satisfied whether you have a legal/constitutional right or not!” No the Tanaiste manipulated the words on the original treaty to make sure none of us can use our ”legal/constitutional right ”.Gilmore is the arrogant and foolish one .

We elect individuals to represent us and the country, are we to just leave them to their own devices once we mark the ballot paper and let them run roughshod over our constitution?
By this admittance Mr Gilmore had confirmed that him and his utterly pathetic coalition actively, willingly and with premeditation sought ways to prevent us – the people – having a vote.

Can you see what’s wrong with this or is your own arrogance blinding you?

I am going out this afternoon to canvass our own referendum .
The People’s Referendum.
The Campaign Against Household and Water Tax.
Don’t Register, don’t pay.
Join the mass non registration and show Mr Gilmore ,Mr Kenny Mr Hogan and every last one of them that ” we will not go quietly into the night …………………….

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Mark, you’re not thinking straight. How is the government actively seeking an adjustment of the terms to side-step our constitution representing our interests?
Stop being so naive.

The original authors of our Constitution envisaged a more direct democractic system. They did not intend a token democracy as we now have. These intentions were enshrined in articles 47 & 48 of the original constitution, which permitted more direct participation by the electorate.
However, these articles were never enacted due to political interference. Under any reform of the constitution these articles must be reinstated.
http://www.nomeansno.ie/

“In other word Eileen you and others have decided that your want and needs must be satisfied whether you have a legal/constitutional right or not!”
Yes Mark that’s spot on! God forbid the people’s wants and needed might be addressed by this lackey government! Note I say addressed not satisfied, as would be a really big ask.
This government needs reminding that they are there to serve all the people of this country not the elites who have brought us to where we are today.
If Eileen’s points are minority points lets put it to the test!

MR rogers you are another goverment spin doctor , spin your lies somewhere else and start treating your fellow citizens with some respect

Mark do not waste your time looking for looking for logic and balance here. We have a representative democracy but many seem to not have any idea how they work. People think that the demands of the mobs are a good idea. I’ve heard many calls for a direct democracy but it’s no surprise there is only one major country in the world with this system… Switzerland.

Only Switzerland has direct democracy. What can they be thinking?
Don’t they want to be Debt Slaves or something?
Might have something to do with 500 years of political stability.

Why only Switzerland was the point?

peter,
did you watch stephen donnelly on the vincent browne show last week, i think?

he gave his interpretation of what the compact would mean for Ireland.
If u haven’t, i’d suggest u watch it.

It will not be some fairly harmless document as you suggest.
Far far from it.

Irrespective on your take on the treaty any government who sets out to prevent a vote by the people they purport to represent is sinister and unacceptable.
If this treaty is benevolent to us then the government should set out it’s stall and explain the benefits and have nothing to fear from a referendum, or maybe they have finally copped on that many people are sick to the back teeth of this EU project, sick of austerity and sick of our leader telling all and sundry that we as a collective nation ruined the finances of this state and will pay back every cent to the detriment of health services, education and the future prospects of generations unborn.
They may view a rejection of this treaty as a protest vote – if they do then it’s become apparent that they realise they are making a mess of governance.
They are intentionally hiding behind EU lawyers to minimize our chances of getting a say in what direction they intend taking us.
It’s BS.

I did not suggest that the document was either harmless or harmful, just that it is. If you think that a state within the euro should be obliged to pay it’s way and only go into deficit in rare circumstances and then restore balance as soon as is practical. then you will regard the treaty as a good thing. In these circumstances the burning issue is how to get to the starting point without destroying our economy and public services. If, on the other hand you take the Keynesian view that governments should increase or decrease spending to manufacture or to restrain growth as needs be, then you will regard the treaty a bad thing. In these circumstances the burning question is how do you increase or decrease money supply when you don’t control your own currency.

How you would get these issues across to an electorate with politicians of various hues forcing their own agendas into the debate I have no idea.

The ”only thing ”………………..
Sure we may as well all give up right now ……. ”Jesus wept”

Dermot, there is a huge difference between preventing a vote and rendering a vote unnecessary.

Oh Peter, Gilmore has stated that he and others collaborated to prevent or at least minimize the need for a vote and that’s the crux of the matter, it doesn’t matter if this treaty promised to make us all overnight billionaires or to make the sale of red lollipops to anyone over the age of 70 illegal, it’s the underhand way they requested a different wording to try prevent a vote and you have to question why.

Dermot you don’t have to question why, it’s been stated on this page why. The referendum will be about anything other than the contents of the fiscal compact. People are in here day in and day out stating how they’ll vote no for several reasons, but when they stated this initially the text wasn’t available, So how the fukk could they judge it’s merits or otherwise when they couldn’t have read it? And you blame the government for reacting to that. Who exactly is being unreasonable here?

You can get a fair idea of what it’s going to contain based on the current workings to date, you can see the path the EU want’s to head down – it’s obvious, I could make a reasonable assumption that the contents were going to be weak, that they would focus on austerity and control rather than problem solving, and low and behold! Not only was I right, it was far, far weaker than I expected – no real reform at all. NOTHING that will help resolve the situation, just some meaningless twaddle, made up of enormous grey area.
I would have been really excited to see something decisive, progressive that actually looked at the issues. But sadly that wasn’t to be.
It’s easy to expect they’re jumping the gun with this one, look at their boasting about how fast they put the agreement together??
It’s a flimsy agreement. How can you not see that??

@ Peter, I take your points – but doesn’t that raise a red flag with you? the fact that they’ve come to this agreement without a roadmap of how it should be implemented.
It smacks of incompetence and panic or alter motives – neither of which are acceptable.

I see the goverment have their stool pigeons out today , people of ireland do not believe a single word this goverment tells you they have obtained their position through fraud they have no mandate. and mr rogers your full of horse manure

And Mark Rodgers it is Eileen,s like 95% of all house owners agree with the campaign AGAINST HOUSE HOLD CHARGES/water/septic tank You are so wrong about this Campaign BEING Eileen,s Campaign ha ha I will not Let Eileen take that Credit and as for her understanding of the law I feel her understanding is far greater than a lot of others and possibly more than you too

Hi Mark .
Sorry for the delay in replying to your comment where you mentioned me several times , I was indeed out canvassing against the household and water tax. I had the most amazing afternoon where I met like minded good people like myself. These same people are as horrified as I am at the government’s tactics in this and so many other things. My main concern is this unfair charge which they are imposing on us .
People see it as the gate way tax it is ,so that higher taxes will be imposed upon us in the near future . I am not canvassing my own special plebiscite (a vote by which the people of an entire country or district express an opinion for or against a proposal especially on a choice of government or ruler ..) but we will all see exactly how many people do not want these unfair,unjust and frankly unaffordable charges.
It is my right to demonstrate against any unfair rules or laws. As an Irish woman living in this democratic society it is my right and my duty to protest against wrong and unjust laws.
You telling me that my actions
” smacks of anarch and illegalities and that’s not the way Eileen to bring about change.”
is a tactic of trying to instill fear and intimidation on me.
Mark only recently you were saying on another thread that you had been threatened …..I don’t know the details but I supported your right to have your say and use your voice ,Now you are threatening and intimidating me saying that I am anarchist carrying on illegally. Think on Mark .I do not take threats kindly and everyone here that reads this will know that I am well within my rights to demonstrate and speak out .
Your remarks are petty to be honest but I do not expect much more from either you or your task masters . I will not be shut up

And how exactly are we funding services without these charges?

And Bernadette do you want to prove that “95% of all house owners agree with the campaign AGAINST HOUSE HOLD CHARGES/water/septic tank”. When I usually ask such a simple question I don’t get an answer but I still have hope.

You guys are hilarious. I ask simple questions and just get down voted because you can’t answer them. Perhaps you can’t answer them as you’re wrong in what you believe… just a thought.

”Thank God we did get flexibility.” Where in the above article does it say we got flexibility ?
Nowhere.!
It states
”The final text of the deal – which introduces a ‘debt brake’ procedure, limiting each country’s budget deficit – allows this mechanism be adopted by ‘preferably Constitutional’ means.”
AND
‘ ‘That contrasts with the original version of that text, agreed by 26 EU member states in December, which required the debt brake to be introduced at “constitutional or equivalent level” – which would have automatically triggered a referendum in Ireland.”
They ”FIXED”it so we can not have a referendum.

Eileen, we cannot defeat these predators using normal man, or women’s thinking. They think the opposite of you, or me. Logical, rational and compassionate arguments to them convey only weakness. There is no point in trying to reason with them. They will simply reject your attempts
at being reasonable as a sign of weakness. They will then try to abuse your human nature to undermine you. We cannot defend ourselves in the traditional way. These parasites are endemic in our cultures. They have an inexplicable ability to manipulate individuals and societies at will. Our only hope, is to educate ourselves to the point that we normal beings, know more than our predators do about us.

Dhakinas Sword
Thanks . I believe you are right . I feel drained trying to be reasonable with some people here . Yet they want
us to explain more and more ….Well i have had it , so I will say good night .

Eileen, the title of article…

You frighten me – i’m scared that there is still people around who support the policies of FF and support the continuation of their policies, scary stuff.

Dermot Mc
Gary likes to think he can frighten every body, but we know that we are beyond being frightened any more.We know that the government are talking out of both sides of their mouths and we have had enough of their lies . So we shall just smile knowingly and ”ignore them” with their ugly threats.:)

Gary, if you think this treaty will work I suggest you go on holiday to Estonia and look it up before you go, might show you something magical, austerity doesn’t work! We do need direct democracy because without now we are paying others peoples debt, do you want to be santa clause going around handing out billions to any rich man or woman you see? well heres the shocker Gary, Santa doesn’t exist and you just can’t do that.

Dermot. I have never supported FF but that doesn’t mean everything they did was wrong by default. I see 2 choices… take the deal we have and hopefully keep negotiating it. Of default and go to shite. Not great choices but the former is far better than the latter.
Eileen. I want to do the opposite of most of you and not frighten everyone. I want less hyperbole, less ranting and more facts. Yet I can never get a straight answer to a simple question. Just because you believe something doesn’t mean that’s what’s happening.
Karl.I didn’t say this treaty will work, like most of you I’m not an expert. However unlike many of you I know that I don’t know. I am convinced though it won’t make things worse and I believe that it will help. There’s nothing much in it I really have an issue with. I want someone to keep an eye on our budgets, because I appreciate it was our politicians, elected by us that didn’t do a very good job previously.

Gary
I don’t doubt your sincerity , but likewise you should not doubt mine . I am a genuinely good person as I am sure you are ,I never claimed to know everything .I do have an opinion tho . This whole thing bothers me like nothing ever before . I am convinced that if we had proper and less selfish leadership ,we will pull through this, eventually. It will be tough ( I am not stupid) but at least we will not be filling the vaults of dead banks .Our politicians would be working for ”us”not ”them”. When did it become so bad to be ”just” Ireland ,not an economy,but a country with all our flaws and perfections, in our own right.
I am not naieve, but I am determined ,that what I worked so hard for does not end up in ruins fattening the Troika fat cats and our own lying inept government. I will also say IMO, that not all the members of this government are in favor ,watch them , listen to the tones of their voices and watch how they are beginning to wither….
By the way I never voted FF,FG got my number 1 Labour 2 in the General Election last year,but I will never vote for them (any) again.My vote will go left.
Regards.

Gary it adds an extra 2.5% of cuts likely all ending at 2015 fastening the pace and crippling the economy, I suggest you get to booking those flights to Estonia as I said it didn’t work there and it won’t work here.

Eileen. I’m not doubting your sincerity at all. What I am doubting is your facts and your interpretation of events. I agree with you that we need to grow out of this but we are also massively overspending day to day. The only way we were paying the bills previously was the stamp duty from a property bubble. That was an aberration, it’s not something that was normal or sensible. So we cannot keep spending at anything like those levels. Austerity is something that we cannot avoid and not one of you have explained how we avoid it other than with some simplistic statements. I’ve been asking people for the last few years to explain to me an easy way out and no one has, at least one that would actually work.
Karl. What is your plan? How do you think we make up the 15-20 billion extra we’re spending on our deficit this year alone? And yes I get we need growth, but 15-20 billion in a year or even 5?

Gary ,

I never said I have any answers But I trust my own instinct and through reading and observing.

I have said it, and said it ,and said it . Tell Europe to f**k off. Tell the Troika to f**k off. Tell the ECB to f**k off.Tell the IMF to f**k off. Tell the dead banks to F**K off, Especially the unsecured bond holders Cut All TD’s pay to a reasonable acceptable level. Ministers to a maximum of 100,000 per annum. Get rid of allowances etc. No one gave me or you I imagine money to turn up at work or to get to work… not one person needs a pension gratuity such as we have been reading in the papers . Increase jobs ….for instance .they want to bring in water metres ….. instead get unemployed construction workers to dig in and fix the leaking victorian pipes… That is one .

Our politicians MUST lead by example.

It will be tough ,no one doubts that .But it will be for us.

Please Gary this is the last time I will say it .
we need to do this . We have to stop being afraid
Good night as it is late.

Eileen this is what I’m really not clear on… Let’s say we do tell all these people to fukk off. We are still overspending to the tune of 15-20 billion a year. Since we’ll have told all the lenders of last report to fukk off, I’ll safely assume we won’t be able to get this money. That means an automatic adjustment in spending of at least 15 billion, perhaps up to 20 billion overnight. You are campaigning hard against austerity, you are saying we’re already suffering too much. But what you’re suggesting would guarantee that massive austerity would have to be implement, no ifs or buts about it. The very thing you say you don’t want. You guys keep saying things but there’s no logic to it.
And this entirely ignores any moral angle on borrowing money and thinking it’s perfectly acceptable to not pay it back. The money we got from other EU states was borrowed by them at a low rate to help us, they do not make anything out of it. So we’d be stuffing our neighbours who helped us out when we asked. Sorry am I the only one that thinks that’s pretty low?

Eileen this is what I’m really not clear on… Let’s say we do tell all these people to fukk off. We are still overspending to the tune of 15-20 billion a year. Since we’ll have told all the lenders of last report to fukk off, I’ll safely assume we won’t be able to get this money. That means an automatic adjustment in spending of at least 15 billion, perhaps up to 20 billion overnight. You are campaigning hard against austerity, you are saying we’re already suffering too much. But what you’re suggesting would guarantee that massive austerity would have to be implement, no ifs or buts about it. The very thing you say you don’t want. You guys keep saying things but there’s no logic to it.
And this entirely ignores any moral angle on borrowing money and thinking it’s perfectly acceptable to not pay it back. The money we got from other EU states was borrowed by them at a low rate to help us, they do not make anything out of it. So we’d be stuffing our neighbours who helped us out when we asked. Sorry am I the only one that thinks that’s pretty low?

Gary
Seriously . You work it out .Good bye

Is it really so difficult to get a straight answer to anything?

Gary .
read the posts . All the answers are there .
There are none so blind as those who will not see .
Or you are trolling .

I read the comments all the time and you lot have no answers. I ask direct questions all the time and never get a straight answer. I’ve just asked you one of the most basic ones about what you’re saying and you cannot answer it.