Whats the CAT connection?

http://ccrjustice.org/ourcases/current-cases/corrie-et-al.-v.-caterpillar

“Corrie v. Caterpillar is a federal lawsuit brought against Illinois-based Caterpillar, Inc. The suit charges Caterpillar, Inc. with aiding and abetting war crimes and other serious human rights violations on the grounds that the company provided bulldozers to the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) knowing they would be used unlawfully to demolish homes and endanger civilians in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT).
It charges Caterpillar, Inc. with violations of state, federal, and international law for complicity in war crimes, extrajudicial killing and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment…Additionally, the suit charges Caterpillar with violation of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, wrongful death, public nuisance, and negligence.
Caterpillar has provided bulldozers to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), knowing they would be used to unlawfully destroy civilian homes. The IDF has used Caterpillar bulldozers to destroy thousands of Palestinian homes, leaving thousands of individuals homeless in the process….Much of the world community, including international human rights organizations and the United Nations, has consistently condemned these demolitions as a clear violation of international humanitarian law. For years, Caterpillar has had notice that the IDF was using its bulldozers for human rights violations, yet has continued to provide them.”

Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old American from Olympia, Washington, was crushed to death March 16, 2003, by an Israeli military Caterpillar D9-R bulldozer while nonviolently protesting demolition of Palestinian civilian homes in Rafah, Gaza.
CAT supply the IDF with all their home destroying bulldozers .

As in CAT designed that particular machine specifically for bulldozing houses.

No outcry. Just a few Palestinians shot, dozens of new settler houses built, scores of Palestinian homes crushed and hundreds more held at “border” i.e. wall crossing points….treating the Palestinians as they were treated themselves in the ghettoes of Poland before the holocaust…

Oisin O’Sullivan I’m sorry but it is complete rubbish to suggest that Palestinians are killed by Israeli security forces unless they have launched lethal attacks, as happens with those caught in the act of launching indiscriminate rocket attacks at Israeli civilians from the Gaza Strip or trying to blow up the security fence or tunnelling under it with the aim of abducting another soldier like Gilad Shalit. You may not be aware that since the second intifada ended 5-6 years ago the Palestinian Authority has carried out most policing in the populated parts of the West Bank and incidents of lethal violence involving IDF troops are rare. Hamas polices the people of Gaza and Israel gets involved only when its people are attacked by the would-be ‘martyrs’ of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
For the record, most settlements are built on land purchased by Jews in Area C, the part of the West Bank with few Arab Palestinian inhabitants. It’s true that some ‘outposts’ have been built without planning permission on land whose title is disputed. One of these, Migron, is set to be evacuated soon following a Supreme Court ruling.
As for the ghettos of Poland, if you really believe these compare with life in the West Bank, you really are very prejudiced against Jews or else know very little about conditions for Jews under Nazi rule. I recommend that you read Martin Gilbert’s history of the Holocaust — if you do I guarantee you will never make such a comparison again.

Fair comment. Earlier post put up in anger at Israels seemingly unstoppable approach to suppression of the Palestinians, human rights for peaceful protesters whilst ignoring more UN conventions than any other state in three world…I am not suggesting that they are starting a holocaust.

Time will tell Mel we shall see how they justify another future war on Iran.

The Palestinian authority has control of less than twenty per cent of the west bank, this gets smaller by the day. The Israeli government never offered a peace deal giving up 90 per cent of the land they captured in the 1967 war and certainly never offered part of their eternal capital as part of any deal, instead they have used the time since the signing of the Oslo accords to cram as many colonists into Jewish only colonies as they can. This has been done to make a two state solution impossible, and has left them with the so called demographic threat. Many decent Israelis realise the racist policies of their government are destroying their country. All Arab citizens of Israel are discriminated against on the basis of their nationality including the window dressing of judges and members of parliament. Pointing out that they might be worse off in Arab countries does not excuse this, especially when you call yourself the only democracy in the middle east at every opportunity . Read Uri Averney to get a balanced view from a decent Israeli who want the best for all the people of his country.

Gavan Duffy: Here are a few facts: Under the Oslo Accords, the PA runs the civil administration of 39% of the West Bank, the populated Areas A and B in which 96% of Palestinian Arabs live. In Area A (18%) they also have full security control, in Area B (21%) they share this with Israel. Area C makes up the other 61%, largely empty desert where 4% of the Palestinians live, as well as all the Jewish settlers. Under Oslo, Israel was supposed to gradually cede more and more of Area C to the PA until all of the West |Bank would be under PA control. Both sides agreed that there was no ban on Jews living in Area C. But all agreements need both sides to make them work. Between September 1993 and the end of 1999, 158 Israelis were killed in suicide bombings and other terror attacks by Palestinian groups. Thus the transfer of Area C didn’t happen.

You are incorrect in saying that Israel ‘never offered a peace deal giving up 90% of the land’. In the Camp David talks sponsored by Pres. Clinton in 2000, Prime Minister Barak offered a deal that would have given a Palestinian state in 92% of the West Bank plus all of Gaza, with a capital based in the Arab districts of east Jerusalem. Arafat walked away from the offer, to the amazement and consternation of Clinton. Read about in Dennis Ross’ ‘The Missing Peace’. In Jan. 2001 at the Taba talks, Barak increased the Israeli offer to 94% of West Bank plus 3% land transfer from Israel. Once again, the Palestinian leadership could not swallow the compromises necessary for peace. In 2008, Prime Minister Olmert tried again with Mahmoud Abbas, offering him all except 6.4% of the West Bank, with land transfers from Israel added to make up almost 100% (again with Jerusalem as capital of two states).

What does it mean to say Arab Israeli citizens are ‘discriminated against on the basis of their nationality’? Only the same as saying that Spanish citizens living in France, though they enjoy full civil rights, are discriminated against on the basis of their nationality because they are not allowed to set up a Spanish state to replace France. In other words, nonsense. Arab Israelis who feel they can only be happy under Arab political rule have 22 Arab states to choose from! Alternatively, they can enjoy the much better civil rights and higher standard of living available to them in the world’s only Jewish state. It seems that quite a few of them do not hate Jews enough to turn their backs on that option.

That is absolute nonsense. I don’t sour there are some extremists who think that but to say that anyone who disagrees with this judgement wants the destruction of Israel is absurd.

I’m fairly sure I’d be happy with the Israeli government putting a halt to their mass oppression of a particular people.

That should say “doubt”, not “sour”. Damn phone etc.

It’s horrible, is it? So horrible that most Israeli Arabs would rather retain Israeli citizenship than be citizens of a new Palestinian state.

Syria….now there’s horrible. Is anyone doing much about it?

Now now darren your not supposed to know that or that large parts of the west bank are not refugee camps that isreal supplies all the west banks water and electricity your just supposed to follow the line all on one side good all on other side bad that all those isreali kids cowering in shelters don’t exist

I know where you’re coming from but resorting to listing out killings is just like the tit-for-tat killings that happen there. I can give you the example of the assault and slaughter of Gazan’s in the 2009 war – As Many Gazan’s Killed in 22 Days as in 22 Years of Israeli Casualties. The argument is futile because like the politics it goes back and forth with no solution. The debate should be about Israel’s lack of respect for their own laws. It takes a proud nation with balls to stand up to terrorist attacks with your rules and laws. It doesn’t take any brains or balls to blow the crap out of civilians and kill protestors. That’s what the argument is about.

At least 6,568 Palestinians and 1,096 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000 (Source: B’Tselem).

Simon excellent point. At the moment the vast vast vast majority agree with you and Israel. It’s the very vocal minority jump and hijack things.

Hijack unintentional pun but highly relevant when we talk about Palestine.

As for Iran. Hell yes they should make a move and knock them out. Can’t have a country that threatens your very existence acquiring WMD

@ James

Do you have any evidence of this “vast vast vast majority” against a “very vocal minority”?, And how do think Israel should knock out Iran exactly?

Yes I do have evidence. Let’s pick a day any day we have what 4.5 million in Ireland and how many are outside the embassy every day protesting?

That’s my “evidence”, unless you provide otherwise.

Also when I say knock them out I mean military solution. Bomb plants, military targets. Take away Iran’s ability to make war or do you hold a soft spot for a government that hangs woman for adultery or men for being gay or that threatens its neighbours and is actively attempting to acquire WMD?

Your evidence is a joke. I mean you can’t actually be serious. I was talking about a poll or something that would back up your claims but all you have is nonsense. By your logic the Irish people support Iran because they are not outside their embassy everyday protesting. In fact if that were a measure I would guess the Israeli embassy gets more protesters. I do not have to provide evidence against your claim because I’m not the one making an unsubstantiated claim. The number of logical fallacies you make is astounding. You also assume I support Palestine based on legitimate questions for you to clarify what you’ve said and provide evidence.

Also, I hate the Iranian regime as much as anyone but I differentiate between a people and their oppressive government. Any attack on Iran is bound to affect innocent people e.g. the ones being hung for adultery or being gay. The WMD thing seems like a bit of a joke also. I don’t claim to have knowledge on Iran’s intentions but after Iraq I’ve far more sceptical of such claims. You seem to have a myopic black and white view of the world. Iran needs change but if history has thought us anything it needs to come from within. There are plenty of dissenters in Iran and their nuclear program is years away from being capable of nuclear weapons, if that is even their intention. Iranians aren’t a bunch of James Bond villains. They’re as interested in their own survival as anyone is and intelligent western governments should know how to play them. War should always be a last resort.

And to all the green thumb morons who up vote nonsense comments without applying basic brain functions…

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3ovcml/

James, name one country in modern times that Iran has ever attacked.
James, show me that Iran has WMD’s.
James, demonstrate one tiny shred of evidence that you have any clue what you’re talking about.

No, it wasn’t. Jewish refugees driven from countries where they had been citizens for centuries do actually have a right to be somewhere.

Many of the countries who subsequently waged war on Israel had previously forced their own Jewish citizens to leave. Where were they supposed to go?

The state of Israel was not created just a few decades ago, it was there since the beginning of mankind. The ruins and scrolls and other people’s history books tell about it. What is wrong here is that the Israeli want to do to the Palestinians what Hitler tried to do to them in 1940’s( it kind of looks like that).How is their war and camp around palestinians rightly justified?!!! Does not the Old Testament tell them that no matter what they think others do them wrong the vengeance and judgement belongs only to our heavenly Father!?!

This talk of apartheid is nonsense. Israel is a state that needs to exist because Jewish refugees (not just from Europe but also from numerous Islamic countries) needed a home somewhere.

Serious question:
What about the 3 million plus people in Israel today who are descendants of those forced to leave a huge swathe of Muslim countries from Morocco to Iraq? Where should they go? Should they be forced to return to the countries that made them leave? Regardless of what fate awaits them?

I’d like an answer….

No-one is suggesting the Israelis have to leave, what people are suggesting is that they put an end to their horrendous treatment of the Palestinian people.

Surely if you stand behind a pile of material as it’s bulldozed you’ll get crossed

It’s only natural to react this way when we perceive an obvious injustice.

note Where are the the objectors pulling out the Anti-Semitic card?

Eric, can you point out the ‘borderline-racist’ comments for us all please?

Hi Eric,
Comments on articles about Israel are moderated in the same manner as all other stories (http://www.thejournal.ie/comments-policy/).
As I’m sure you’re aware, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most contentious in the world and stories from the region tend to provoke highly emotional responses on both sides. Racist comments are not tolerated on the site; the comments above which are critical of the ruling are related to the behaviour of the IDF, the court ruling itself, or the humanitarian situation in the area.
I do take your comment seriously, but I would point out that a remark that is critical does not equate a remark that is racist.
I hope that’s helpful.

It seems words of hate fail the contributors to this page, they are so consumed with their rage against the Jewish nation.
Israel really is universally hated and despised, a byword amongst the nations – see the 44th Psalm written about 3,000 years ago, it perfectly explains the comments on this page and the reasoning behind them. It could have been written this morning.

It’s funny how when soldiers from the USA or Russia or China or Pakistan or Syria or wherever commit crimes, no-one questions the rights of those countries to exist. It’s accepted that a crime was committed and that justice might not have been done but that’s it.

But when the Israelis step out of line….whoah. Please form an orderly queue to call for it to be wiped off the map á la Ahmadinejad.

@ Eric, totally agree with you. The barely concealed anti-Semitism on here is disgraceful.

Disagreeing with the conduct of the Israeli government does not equate to anti-semitism. The Israeli government does not act with the approval of all Jews or even all Israelis. The treatment of Jewish and Israeli human rights activists who call for an end to the occupation is appalling. The protests are shut down, they are arrested en masse, treated as the worst type of criminal by a biased press, ostracised by their own countrymen.

A person who disagrees with the occupation and economic isolation of the Palestinian people doesn’t necessarily support Hamas. The fact that a person thinks that a muslim’s family home shouldn’t be bulldozed in order to make way for a Jewish family home doesn’t mean that they think the other way around would be fine!

The holocaust was a terrible, terrible thing. It is one of the worst stains on the history of every nation, including Ireland, for turning our backs on Jewish refugees. It was a dreadful crime but it is not a carte blanche to excuse drafting the entire population into the army and convincing perfectly reasonable men, women and children that every Muslim wants their country destroyed or that anyone who disagrees with their conduct is anti-Semitic.

Not only a moderation-free but a fact-free zone: the ramped-up indignation, hatred, barely submerged anti-Semitism seen here don’t leave much room for fair-minded inquiry into facts of the case.
For anyone who’s interested, not only did the 3 different investigations presented to the court by The State Prosecutor’s Office assert that the driver could not spot Ms. Corrie and thus could not have avoided this tragic accident, but an expert who testified on behalf of the Corrie family also noted that the driver could not and did not see Ms.Corrie due to the nature of the vehicle he was operating.

Not to mention Paddy that everyone calling Israel a “lunatic” state tend to have an attention span no longer than five minutes, they will just bombard any story against Israel and leave without suggesting any realistic alternatives or solutions.

@Stephen

http://www.chrishorner.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/four-panel-map-700×466.jpg
Do you not see the problem there????

The majority of us do not demand Israel give up the land they have stolen- and I mean stolen.
We would be happy if they stopped demolishing houses and inflicting collective punishment, that is all

The same map again, last one won’t allow linking.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2q31myG7jBY/TnraLMghSoI/AAAAAAAACoI/_8fMbwF74xk/palestinan_map.jpg

How did the Israelis occupy that land in the first place? Israel is unique in its voluntary pullout of the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip in order to advance peace; all they get is rockets and Islamist attacks.

Well said, Stephen. I don’t agree with settlements in the West Bank but we all saw what happened when the Israelis pulled out of Gaza. Their reward is to now be regularly bombarded by Gazans with missiles. Casualties are fairly low because the area is thinly populated and the few locals brave enough to live there have shelters constructed etc.

Imagine if this situation were transferred to the northern West Bank and missiles were raining down on the densely populated cities of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. For the Palestinian militants, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

No government would subject its citizens to such a scenario.

Seán,

Criticising the decision is fine. I draw the line at those who say Israel has no right to exist.

There is one comment on here that says the creation of the Israeli state was a mistake. One. And I disagree with it.

I’ve yet to see you give a good reason for the continuation of their treatment of their Palestinian citizens.

@Brend, stop being such a coward, we all know you mean Jews when you say Zionists.

I think you will find that they are completely different .If i mean’t jewish i would have said it as i said at the top of my comment that Zionist’s mistreat the ordinary jew in Israel if you had a look into it you would see that hundreds of thousands of ordinary everyday jews are out protesting against their governments policies and the savage treatment of the Palestinians under the name of Israel when most of the population respect other peoples beliefs an their right to live.Polilticans with vested interest using countries names and military’s to further their own agenda’s against the peoples will.You should read and think before you call someone a coward Paddy O Farrel or what ever your name is.

Oh yes your mealy mouthed words about the “ordinary Jew” hoping to disguise your anti-Semitism.”……some fundamental Zionist prophecy these nutters control the banks….”, hmm nothing anti-Semitic about that huh?
I`m glad you pointed out that people are allowed to demonstrate and march against the Israeli government without getting shot, that`s democracy for ya. Try it in the neighbouring countries.
Btw what do you mean ” Paddy O Farrel or what ever your name is” ?

You know there are plenty of governments and regimes out there that wouldn’t even consider a court case over this. There are nations where human violations are never reported but you won’t hear any of the anti-Palestinian crowd here give a damn because it does not suit their anti-Western narrative.

A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children had been suspected of stone-throwing.

Just a totally normal, liberal democracy.

Trolling won;t get you anywhere…

Not trolling just pointing out obvious facts.

Such nonsense James. Again. You really haven’t a clue. About anything, as far as your posts on this site go.

Israel is an absolute rogue state (those fixated on ‘anti-semitism’ note the emphasis on state rather than Judaism or the general Israeli populace) run and manipulated by Rothschild Zionists and propped up by their stooges in the US. The lines for a third world war have already been drawn in the Middle East with Israel at the centre (the ultimate reason for its existence). Watch the continued, orchestrated destabilisation of North Africa and the Middle East, Iran and Israel eventually destroying each other and the inevitable conflict between Russia/China and NATO. It will happen. Indeed it’s already playing out in front of our eyes if we decided to step back from constant squabbling and divisive, tribal behaviour and look at what’s really going on in the world.

Mel, what the Israeli goverment say they offered in negotiations and what was actually on the table are two very different things. They have declared Jerusalem as their eternal and indivisible capital and have been busy trying to clear it of Arabs ever since and have never offered to share it as part of any deal. Area c may be largely desert but it is not empty ,it has been home to the Bedouin for hundreds of years, but they too are being forced from it daily. The PA has full security control of none of the west bank, they have never controlled their own borders. It is nonsense to compare Spanish citizens living in France with Arabs whose families have lived in Palestine for hundreds of years ,they are not in a foreign country and as I said are discriminated against simply because they are Arabs ,as in they do not enjoy the same civil rights as Jews. Why should they accept being treated as second class citizens just because they might be worse off in an Arab country, that argument is used all too often to justify racism by the Israeli goverment, it is just as racist to suggest if they don’t like it they should go abroad. The Palestinians are not trying to replace anything it is their country that is being replaced. If Israel is going to call itself the only democracy in the middle east they need to behave like one.

Gavan: The facts I put before you are not matters of opinion (though you can have opinions about them), they are empirically verifiable realities. Simply saying the opposite doesn’t turn falsehood into truth. The texts of the Oslo Agreements and what they say about Areas A, B and C are available for all to read. For example, you can read ‘The Missing Peace’ by Dennis Ross, the reputable mediator of Pres. Clinton at the 2000 Camp David negotiations, for the inside story of these talks. Reading it, you can decide that the Israeli offer of 92% of West Bank + all of Gaza + Arab parts of Jerusalem as capital was less than what you think the Palestinians deserved, but you cannot deny that the offer was made, unless you believe a conspiracy theory that Mr. Ross is staking his reputation on deceiving us all. Similarly, Israel’s former ambassador to the UN Dore Gold wrote a book ‘The Fight for Jerusalem’ in 2007 arguing that Jerusalem must never be divided in any peace agreement. You can agree or disagree, but who did he criticise in the book? His own Prime Minister Ehud Barak for offering to do just that at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in 2001.

‘It is their country that is being replaced’: but there never was a state called Palestine — there was a territory called that (which included also modern Jordan) inherited by the League of Nations from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and entrusted to the British as a Mandate in 1921 to be prepared for statehood — an Arab one and a Jewish one. The British immediately ruled out Jewish settlement in 77% of it, the part east of the Jordan river, and gave that to an Arab king who set up Transjordan, now Jordan. They ruled the remaining area west of the river until 1948, by which time the UN had resolved to divide it between Jewish and Arab states on a 55:45 basis. That would have given the Arabs over 87% in total of the original Palestine. The Jewish leadership accepted that, the Arabs rejected it and launched an immediate war against the Jews, followed by an invasion by the armies of 5 Arab neighbours. Part of the result of this war was that Israel added to its size; another result was that the Jordanians expelled all Jews from east Jerusalem, where there had been a Jewish majority since at least 1863, demolished all the synagogues and forbade Jewish worship at the Western Wall. Interestingly, the Jordanians never set up a new Palestinian state and the local Arabs never asked for one — that demand only arose when Israel took over the territory in 1967.

If there is to be peace there has to be a recognition on each side of the legitimacy of the other side’s demand for self-determination i.e. that there are two competing national movements in the same territory. This means a Jewish state (Israel) and a future Palestinian state living side by side in peace and mutual recognition. Jews who wish to live in the Palestinian state (for religious or other reasons) should enjoy full civil rights but cannot expect the political right to have Israeli rule there. Similarly, Arabs who prefer to live in Israel (as many do) can enjoy full civil rights (as they do at present) but cannot enjoy the delights of Arab rule. If by ‘democracy’ you mean that the only Jewish state in the world should be dissolved to allow for one big state with an Arab majority, the world’s 23rd Arab state, that would mean the end of the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. Now that would be real racism!

Well north korea should have been hit in the past as its the world largest prison camp starving its own people. For liberations sake the only way forward is military action or just wait till it falls apart allowing countless more to die.

As for Iran having the bomb nooooo. I could not see them use to attack but would cement the government that as I said before is ruthless and fundamentalist and having a neighbour like that is very very uncomfortable. Let’s not forget israel was attacked as soon as the state was founded and again and again. Also let’s not forget Munich. I did happen to date an isreali girl and they are a lovely descent people and would love peace but it’s a bad neighbourhood.

Poor girl. Of course the majority of Israelis are lovely people. It’s the imbeciles who run it are the problem.

Apple Core: Judging by your previous post — Israel an ‘absolute rogue state… run and manipulated by Rothschild Zionists’ whose ultimate reason for existence is to trigger a third world war, you seem in the grip of the seriously delusionary thinking that has been at the core of anti-Semitism for centuries. For the Spanish Inquisition, it was secret cabals of Jews plotting the destruction of Christianity, for Hitler it was international Jewish financiers behind both world capitalism and the Bolshevik revolution, for Ahmadinejad it is ‘Zionists’ at the heart of all world disorder (read ‘Jews’ since Zionism is a little over 100 years old).

But don’t try to leave ordinary Israelis out of all this: they must be just as culpable as the ‘imbeciles’ who run the state since every 4 years or so they have a free choice of parties to vote for right across the political spectrum, and in the past decade they have swung away from left-wing parties advocating ‘land for peace’ — for the very good reason that the last concession of land, the full evacuation of Gaza in 2005, led not to peace but to 10,000+ rockets from there. Why would they embrace the same again in the much more strategic West Bank?

As for Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons, the latest report of the International Atomic Energy Agency says it all — on uranium enrichment to levels far beyond what is needed for peaceful nuclear power, the refusal of Iran to co-operate with its inspectors, the evidence that it is stockpiling enriched uranium under mountains, the experiments to develop warheads etc.

Well said James!

If you believe that the farcical left-right paradigm that people are presented with at election time in Western ‘democracies’ has any bearing on who runs these countries then you’re utterly deluded. Anti-Semitic? Stop your silly nonsense. Open your mind, educate yourself and stop blindly repeating nonsensical Rothschild Zionist propaganda.

Tadhg your dead right mate. It really puts it in perspective. Where are the protests about Syrian government slaughtering their own people.

Israel as a western state is a target for the loony lefties to take a knock at. Actually I did mean to mention the UN report on irans no compliance with UN inspections on uranium enrichment but I’m glad someone else brought it up.

There is a hatred here in the vocal minority to the jewish state I don’t know why it’s bred into people. I remember as a child in playground an insult was to call someone a Jew. Of course kids can’t be blames for this but it comes from somewhere. The Jews are owed so much by us for the crimes of the 20th century even Ireland when we turned them away during ww2. It’s sad to see such hate and it’s obvious in a lot of the posts here.

I don’t support all of Israel’s actions. Let’s not forget the cloned passports and I don’t agree with political assassinations except in wartime. I do agree with defending oneself. Hamas deliberately store rockets and guns in civilian areas and used them on Israel. Where are protests about that. Also the gaza blockade while far from ideal does stop a lot of the weapons. The Irish flotilla that attempted to go there with medical supplies. There was absolutely no shortage of medical or humanitarian supplies and any international donation could get the gaza by road. Propaganda by the Irish left.

One final thing when I buy fruit and veg that can’t grow in our climate I always make sure it’s product of Israel.

Good grief — Norman Finkelstein an impartial observer or a credible authority on anything? Why not try Alan Dershowitz or Yaacov Lozowick?

You seem to prefer to believe slogans from ‘pro-Palestinian’ (actually anti-Israel) propaganda sheets than to look at actual living reality. If you travel in the West Bank, you will see squalor and ‘horrendous’ conditions. (You will also see roads crammed with new and newish cars, and large amounts of new building due to the 6, 7 and 8% growth rates of recent years.) Poverty there, and more so in Gaza, is typical of what you will see in any Arab country. But many westerners fall into the trap of assuming that the difference between this and the orderliness and prosperity of neighbouring Israel must be caused by something Israel has done, rather than to the backwardness of Arab society. In fact, all life indicators in the West Bank and Gaza — life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy levels — are vastly improved since the Israeli presence began in 1967, which brought with it huge improvements in medical care and education, and are significantly higher than in neighbouring Arab states. The West Bank had 2 universities in 1967, it now has 7.

As for Arab citizens of Israel, can you list the ways in which they do not enjoy full civil rights? All citizens are equal under the law and if they feel these rights to be infringed they can appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. The fact that many choose to live differently and do not avail of their opportunities is not in itself proof of discrimination at the society level. Arabs have proved time and again that they can reach the top (called by you “window dressing”). A very telling statistic is the matriculation figures in Israeli schools for 2010. Percentages of students going to college were 63% for Arab Christian students, 52% for Jewish and 34% for Arab Muslim students. This suggests that cultural differences among Arabs themselves are more important for levels of ambition to succeed than are differences between Arabs as a whole and Jews.

Let’s be clear: there is no predetermined legal or moral obligation on Israel to give any land at all in the West Bank for an Arab Palestinian state. No such state existed there before, so there is nothing to ‘hand back’ to Arabs. The succession of rule in the West Bank has been Turkish Empire–British Mandate–UN provision for an Arab state there (double in size what they could get today under the best possible offer)–rejection of this followed by war–shrinkage of the area and Jordanian occupation 1949-67–Israeli occupation. There are, however, two competing national movements, both with legitimate claims on it. The future of the area remains to be settled in negotiations according to UNSC Res 242 (withdrawal of Israeli forces from “territories” — note NOT “the territories” — occupied in 1967 in return for peace and mutually agreed secure boundaries).

If you know that the only way to end the conflict is by compromise, you have a duty to prepare your people mentally and give up absolutist claims. This unfortunately the Palestinian leadership have failed to do: they still make unrealistic promises that one day the ‘refugees’ (and Palestinians are the only population in the world who get to have first and second generation descendants defined as refugees) will all return to ancestral homes in Israel. This will go nowhere as it’s a recipe for ending the Jewish state. By contrast, a roughly 70% majority of Jewish Israelis have always been ready to embrace the idea of giving up over 90% of the West Bank if they could be sure it will lead to lasting peace. But since 2005, this last condition has become the biggest stumbling block. Israel made a ‘down payment’ on a Palestinian state in that year, by completely evacuating its settlers and soldiers from Gaza. It got, instead of peace, over 10,000 rockets and pretty well constant war with Hamas since. Who is going to take the strategic risk of doing the same with the West Bank, only to face a Hamas takeover in a year or two with thousands of rockets falling on the densely populated central strip of Israel, only 8-12 miles wide? You and I agreeing that two states side by side would make a neat solution does not make it about to happen in the real world. There are no easy solutions as long as the driving engine of the conflict is the Islamic mandate (see the 1988 Hamas Charter for this) to destroy Israel because it is an infidel state on land once ruled by Islam.

John fair point but being critical is one thing but being critical without being informed is just silly.

Sure noone protests outside irans embassy because why would they? It’s more a Palestine issue people have passion about. Israel has not gone to war with Iran yet but it’s coming and I think we can all agree on that one.

Of course Israel has not gone about thing ideally and are not entirely blameless but when confronted with war repeatedly a country like a person toughens up. Just because Iran is not shouting from the rooftops about WMD it is there. I was completely against the USA going to war with Iraq that even I could see was bullcrap of the highest order but Iran is doing it. North Korea in same manner did not advertise till they had the bomb.

Israel also is the one getting threatened with destruction and rhetoric about how it should not exist from Iran. The response is we will take action to defend ourselves by any means which to me is measured compared to what Iran are saying. As for Palestine the groups here that support them are linked to shell to sea and professional protest groups that try to incite hate. But ignoring what they say I still think Palestine should have a state but Hamas need to disband their terror network and go down the solely political route and achieve it that way.

Also apple as I stated before I will not respond to a pseudonym. Done even bother

Well James, I’ve already stated to you on a different article that my surname is Core and that my first name is one simple click away. Also you do respond to pseudonoms, consistently. Perhaps this is a new policy of yours?
The reason you didn’t answer my questions is because the answers don’t suit your childish, uninformed, reactionary ‘argument’.
You know of WMD’s in Iran? Are you actually a covert weapons inspector and not just the buffoon you consistently appear to be? Do enlighten us!
Or don’t – a refusal to back up your own sweeping assertions speaks volumes in itself and ironically, far more articulately than you generally manage.

@James

I’d also be interested in seeing a source for the claim that the “vast vast vast majority” agree with or support Israel. As has been pointed out to you, the onus is on you to back up your claim, not on others to prove you wrong.

That said, we could look for example at membership numbers of the IPSC and Sadaka and compare them with those of Irish Christian Friends of Israel and such groups. It’s worth noting too that pro-Israel demonstrations (yes, they’ve had a few) have struggled to reach double digits while demonstations in solidarity with the Palestinians have been in the thousands at times. The Israeli Foreign Ministry has described Ireland as the most hostile country to Israel in the European Union. You appear to be either delusional or ignorant. I’m leaning towards the latter.

Internationally, your claim of majority support for Israel could not be more wrong. At the UN, the US is Israel’s only ally apart from a few micro-states in the South Pacific. The representatives of most other states feel that Israel should not be allowed to act with impunity. Because of the veto system at he UNSC, Israel continues to act outside international law and norms without sanction. In the UNGA – a much better aproximation of international opinion – it is completely isolated.