Well how about this then?

“FG pledges to ‘put the frighteners’ on electorate”
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-pledges-to-put-the-frighteners-on-electorate-3095196.html

“In the wake of a top secret FG party meeting, astonished TDs and senators told the Sunday Independent they had been informed by the party’s referendum director, Simon Coveney, that “the Government would prefer to win the referendum by being nice but if necessary we will change tack”.

One party grandee told the Sunday Independent: “We couldn’t believe it when Simon said if the campaign is not going well after the first week we [Fine Gael] are going to have to put the frighteners on the public and really spell it out,” and added, “They have really lost contact with the voters if they think Simon’s ‘we’ll be nice but if necessary we will be nasty’ line will work.”

Thanks Brian. Direct quote from that article. Not surprising at all, but nice to see it in print. More bully boy tactics from a Fine Gael minister. They just can’t help rolling them out.

“In the wake of a top secret FG party meeting, astonished TDs and senators told the Sunday Independent they had been informed by the party’s referendum director, Simon Coveney, that “the Government would prefer to win the referendum by being nice but if necessary we will change tack”.

One party grandee told the Sunday Independent: “We couldn’t believe it when Simon said if the campaign is not going well after the first week we [Fine Gael] are going to have to put the frighteners on the public and really spell it out,” and added, “They have really lost contact with the voters if they think Simon’s ‘we’ll be nice but if necessary we will be nasty’ line will work.”

Thanks Brian. Direct quote from the article. No surprise that Fine Gael will try scare tactics – they have no shortage of bullyboys within their ranks. But nice to see it in print all the same.

I see the NO side gaining momentum as this campaign goes on. They can try to discredit the NO side all they want.

The trio of elitist economists wimps that were correctly quoted on the Sinn Féin leaflet. Even though they readily admit it’s a flawed treaty, they know where their bread is buttered. They vote a reluctant yes! It’s Yes men like them that lack courage of their convictions that are partly to blame for the mess we’re in.

I’ll be voting NO!

Morto about the double post. After 8 mins it still hadn’t shown up. Journal please get your tech team onto it. Sorry lads! #RedFace

The NO side referencing the SINDO as fact and somehow it’s the yes side that are the sheep???

Wake up folks, the SINDO makes up articles every week!!

Yeah David. Usually in the government’s favour! Must have been impossible to ignore if they ran with this. ;)

So basically David because it’s a story that you don’t like it’s “made up”. The writer John Drennen has risked his career by totally fabricating a story out of the blue and that we will not hear any more about this in the coming days or weeks. Of course on your Facebook page you are now saying that it is “probably” made up. Rowing back on your statement already! Keep it up lad, you’ll be a TD yet! :-)

YES, yes they have fabricated the story. The SINDO does this every week, sometimes for or against the government, it varies. They also make up poll numbers under the fake company of “quantum research”.

I can’t believe people didn’t know this before!!

I fail to see how this treaty, or any other ramblings, will “keep them in power”. The election isn’t for another few years.

Funny to see people quoting the Sindo though, which is a Fianna Fail paper and has always been anti Fine Gael. The government wont be “putting the frighteners” on anyone because its just going to further damage their reputation and cause a massive backlash. Do you think that these “TDs” would actually stand by such a comment and let it slide, and run to the newspaper with the gossip?! The government will, however, have to say it as it is and communicate with the people better than previous administrations.

The Sindo like to dramatize their articles like most rags. You wouldn’t see that article in any decent paper. They don’t have to name their sources and nobody is going to push them to court over another silly nonsensical article quoting “un named sources”.

I have to say, I am diametrically opposed to David’s economic and political views, but with regards to the Sindo, its articles and their “research company” I have to say I totally agree. Still voting No though. Not as a knee jerk reaction to the government, but after a careful analysis of the document.

Ailís… Fantastic comment… Expressed in a way that I could never. 100% agree with you.

S&P has made it very clear what will happen if we vote no: no further funding from Europe, no increased funding from the IMF (they’re maxed out and have stated so) and our credit will be reduced below the BBB+ we currently have (and couldn’t afford the interest on bond sales). If you want crippling austerity; vote no.

It’s also not a fantastic comment as it relies on the flawed assumption that we can still access funding from Europe if we vote no and that there is margin or possibility for debt write-down or forgiveness. There isn’t; it would require the fundamental rules of the TFEU and the ECB to be altered and that isn’t going to happen, full stop.

Have you done the number crunching?? will a no vote and a default be more expensive than what you’re paying at the minute?? I’m not so sure.

Hmmm. I do think that those who have loaned us money would rather us keep limping along, paying them back what we owe plus a nice interest bonus for as long as it takes, rather than see us default and start fresh. They would be the only losers in this scenario, while our pain would be temporary before we start to rebuild. Right now, we are like a sick patient and our so called care providers are treating enough of our symptoms to keep us alive, yet the illness at source remains at large. This treaty will put us in a coma state.

@oisin nice dose of scaremongering but you are wrong. Austerity aside the IMF will lend us money they have even said so in todays sunday times.
In its 60 or so years it has never refused to lend to a country of good standing. Why would the IMF not lend to us, Ireland, who have hit every target they set out for us since the bailout?

Also even when it ran out of money it was still able to raise funds to help Russia in 1998.

Only last week the IMF raised 400billion in funds from various countries.

@Senan Unfortunately, it’s not scaremongering. It’s fact. Firstly, see this: http://www.piie.com/blogs/?p=2779

“By the end of 2012, Ireland will have received IMF funds equal to 1,315 percent of its IMF quota, a number scheduled to rise to 1,548 percent by the end of 2013 under the current program.

The standard IMF procedure for an EFF program is that a member can only borrow up to 200 percent of its IMF quota annually, up to a total maximum of 600 percent in total outstanding credit.2 Ireland has obviously already greatly exceeded these maximum levels.”

Secondly, EU soft guarantees are what enabled Ireland to exceed its loan quota. “the belief that the IMF would somehow, in these circumstances, agree to lend Ireland even more money beyond the 1,300-plus percent of Ireland’s IMF quota is delusional. The chance of that happening is precisely zero.”

Thirdly, we get a discount rate on our interest penalties by borrowing from the EU funds which we do not get from the IMF. We would be talking a massive interest penalty from an IMF-only borrowing (which isn’t possible; plain and simple).

It all adds up to the question of austerity – will there be no austerity if we vote ‘yes’? Of course there will be! Will there be no austerity if we vote ‘no’? Of course there will be!
Which results in LESS austerity? Simply put: a ‘yes’ vote will result in less austerity.

Perhaps the reason no credible “NO” siders are given airtime is because there are none.

They’re “often” trustworthy I think you mean

I certainly was never polled………I would have said no….. ohh and Enda … No means No…. although your government are economic rapists

I suppose jimbo, all those that do vote YES YES YES are scum like those who paid the household tax?

Just cause it’s the business post survey doesn’t mean it’s their readers that were surveyed. It’s completely at random by an external company.

And the middle class have been hit just as much, stop falling for the ULA bull!

These polls use all types of statistical models to refine their accuracy and they’re always very accurate, especially RedC.

If you look at the raw polling data you’ll see that they ask for a person’s social class, more formally known as C2DE which covers the broad “working class”.

So yes they are asked, and just because you weren’t doesn’t mean it’s not accurate.

Well if the people on the no side want the austerity treaty to be rejected we all need to convince 1 or maybe 2 people who are eligible to vote each to back us and actually vote no with us on the day.

So let’s get smart… Let’s come up with a slick 3 to 4 sentence campaign in order to convince the don’t knows and close friends / parents to vote no… But It needs to be credible….. Let’s just get it concise, sweet and easy to remember without being condescending. Too much waffle and crazy assertions actually turns people the other way…

You already know how I will vote let’s get the people closest to us to vote No as well. Then we will get the result we want. Unfortunately Leaving this to the unbiased media won’t work…. In fairness to the journal they are the exception.

Emer, By the way how many regular users have the journal got? And can you break it down to PC users / iPhone/iPad users please….

Diarmaid I don’t think the ULA think that the middle classes have not been affected by austerity. We all have! Except the top 10%, they saw their disposable income rise by 8%, while the bottom 10% saw theirs drop by 25%. I wouldn’t fit into a low income group but I would still favour a fairer society.

Totally Reada, as would I, I do however, detest the use of the words “working class” and “ordinary people”. It suggests that people on low incomes and social welfare are the only ones not able to provide at the moment, which is totally infactual. I respect Joe Higgins and a small % of the ultra left, however, some of the bladder and phrases they use isolate alot of people and families throughout the country who are hurting just as much if not more than the “working class”.

You do realise Lisa, there is more than you in this lovely country of ours? We don’t all get asked. Its given to a research company who draws up a list of people to contact and surveys them ensuring its done fairly and without bias. Iv only ever been asked once.

The polls are a true reflection. Just because you, maybe your family and some friends are heavily against it does not mean the rest of the country is feeling the same as you.

Just like in the elections – if you were to read online polls, online comments, etc. than Sinn Fein would be the majority party in government. When the official polls put FG & Labour ahead, you got comments like yours saying it was all false and that’s nowhere near what the people think. Yet, the election happened and your voice was in the minority. Sinn Fein are in opposition. FG & Labour are in government, with a very nice majority for them.

@Kevin, that is not true … when journal.ie ran polls at the last election, SF were coming in around 20-25%. SF were not the major supported party on here, it was FFg. But you can see the tide turning against FFg/Labour … And if the sentiments are reflected at the next election, it doesnt matter how many other polls are run, FFg/Labour coalition will be decimated. I suspect that FFg will retain a lot of the FF vote, but Labour will lose more or less everything. And yes, SF and the independents (ULA’s included in that) will pick up the votes of the disillusioned voters. Its called democracy. When you crap all over the people that voted for you, what else can you expect. FFg’s demographic is on average the higher paid, and taxed lower disproportionate to income levels vs SF. I would be surprised if that changes in any drastic way by the next election. But FFg will jump into bed with FF at the next election, without even a second thought, as they are in essence, one and the same party anyway.

Hmmm, the fundamental point here is that we will always *be able to ask* for IMF support, just like we could ask China and the USA or anyone else.

The question is, do you really think we would get it ????
Of course we wouldn’t.

Who is going to lend to a corrupt little incompetent country when the people themselves enjoy sticking their two fingers up to the last friend who lent us money to get ourselves sorted.

But of course you are right, better to be right & poor, than wrong & recovering.

(slowly shakes head)

Enda and the President of China are best mates now, or have you forgotten Endas photo op from 3 weeks ago?

@DubinNaas I couldnt agree less. You’re talking like the EU/ECB gave us the money for free!! Our so called European “partners” are charging us a higher interest rate than the IMF. Remember, the EU/ECB are being paid back with massive interest. Oh and dont forget its the ECB who is forcing the Irish people to pay back the unguaranteed and unsecured bondholders debts. Please wake up.

NO !

Bad news for the government when a gentleman from the IMF says a futher application from Ireland for funding would be listened to.Kinda blows a hole in the fear mongering of the Yes side ie.no funding if we vote No.

Mattoid, you seem to have a sensible approach to things so I’d be grateful if you could expand on how it is the least bad option? Genuine question.

It amazes me how easy it is to turn peoples head’s with fear propaganda. This treaty is not in our best interests. Its that simple. Goodness knows why anyone would think it is a viable option!

Apologies, the exasperation made me commit grammarcide : people’s heads!

I am quaking in fear that this referendum wont be passed……. Oh Wait …. I will be voting No , Again ? I will be voting No! :)

@EMD
Option 1 – vote yes:
We’re locked into austerity budgets for the foreseeable future (possibly for many years) with all the harm that will do to potential growth etc., however funds will continue to flow for essential requirements eg. running crucial public services etc.
Option 2 – vote no:
Consequences are unpredictable, but may well lead to being forced to turn to the markets for funding at punitive rates. Problem will be exacerbated if we continue to borrow far more than we can afford, leading to a greater possibility of total financial meltdown in the future. Worst case scenario, funding is unobtainable, meaning no money to pay public servants, no cash in ATM’s etc..
I know this is an oversimplification of a very complex situation, but it provides a snapshot of what could potentially be facing us either way….

Stark choice, but unfortunately that’s the reality of where we’re at :-/

Mattoid, that is pretty much as I understood it but wasn’t sure if I was correct in my interpretation of the likely scenarios. Thanks for that and I agree it is a loaded choice but I think the result of voting No sounds very stark indeed, bad as things are now they could be much worse if we cut ourselves off. We still really don’t know what austerity is in comparison to some of our less fortunate European neighbours and personally I prefer our version, very few of us are at the poverty level of the Greeks.

Just one more thing. The scenario painted here of what will happen if we vote no is exactly what the powers that be want us to think. Its speculation at best. The bankers and financial industry that gain from all this ‘austerity’ (or looting if you want to be more truthful) want you to think this way so that they can continue to reap the rewards of economic pillaging. Yes, the economy is in a desperate situation but enshrining austerity will not help and will not get things back on track. In addition, if we do indeed require a further ‘bail out’ it will not be denied to us if we vote no. The house of cards is too weak to allow that and with the way the tide is turning in the rest of Europe right now the balance of power may just swing over to our side if we say enough abuse is enough. The Guardian had an interesting article on this a few days ago. I recommend you read the comment section, especially those pertaining to the level of propaganda we are subjected to continue this devastating exploitative economic havoc being heaped on us by the right wing money men. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/27/francois-hollande-angela-merkel-clash-eurozone

@EMD
Unfortunately nobody can accurately predict the consequences of a no vote (those that claim to be able to are either misguided or untruthful) and therein lies the dilemma for voters…

@mattoid your option 2 analysis is totally wrong.

Firstly this Treaty will do nothing to solve the current crisis.

The IMF has said that they will lend to any member of good standing of which Ireland is.
Since the bailout Ireland has met each and every target they have charged us with.

So your acertion that funding would be unobtainable is incorrect.

But lets entertain it so, say we cant get funding. This would result in an immediate default. This would intern result is massive contagion and credit default swaps on a massive scale bringing down the entire Euro and possibly the world economy.
Do you honestly believe that Europe would cut us lose to allow that to happen?

There is no chance of that happening.

Vote YES for more austerity and legal binding laws and a loss of Budgetary sovereignty to Brussels for all eternity.
Or Vote NO for more austerity, send a message that we value our economic sovereignty and send a message to Europe that Austerity has failed and it needs to cop on and find another way.

There is no easy way outta of this mess but this treaty does nothing to help the situation.

Either way, anger with the government certainly isn’t a good enough reason to vote no!

who said anything about anger towards the government?

All i see here is common sense prevailing over fear mongering from the gov.

@paul @senan
You could be right about Europe not allowing the house of cards to fall, and I hope you are, but please don’t talk in absolute terms – as you also correctly pointed out, what will happen in the event of a no vote is largely a matter of speculation and nobody knows for certain (including yourselves) therefore it represents a huge gamble with potentially devastating consequences if the gamble goes bad…

no it doesnt.

Voting no keeps the status quo and forces Europe to look again.

Remember nothing in this treaty does anything to help solve the current crisis.

@senan
the comment about anger wasn’t directed at you, but all you need to do is look at some of the threads on TJ to see that many people intend to vote no for no other reason than as a protest vote against the government.

@Senan
voting no does not maintain the status quo. There’s nothing to stop the rest of Europe going ahead with it with or without us.

@Mattoid, you mention no money at the atm’s and other scary situations which were peddled to us by Brussels mouthpiece, our own Govt. If not for the treasonous blackmail clause in this treaty, we could more clearly see and reason No is best, it just takes the Govt, to actually take stock and make cuts under their own guise, not at the request of Brussels, we need to cut the state spending, but full austerity isn’t going to do it as to meet targets in the treaty we must strip from 6 -8 billion each and every year from the economy for the next 8 years or about’s. We will have nothing to fuel the economic wheels if this it the case, we will be a shell and end up selling state assets and really be scraping the barrel then. Now is the time to say, OK we will commit to the fiscal guidelines to lower our debt and over spending, but not have our hands tied doing so. We need state funded projects and means to get our economy moving as this is what truly makes money, work done. Not more loans which we will never be able to repay, as we will be left borrowing for internal needs and borrowing to pay bond holders, neither of which should be our end goal all the while stifling growth if we agree to the full terms of this treaty.

And they say everything printed in the SINDO is factual…

A “terrorist” government no less. Glad to see the argument grounded in rational thinking… You know if didn’t want them governing you you could have done something about it and voted the actual terrorists SF in when you had the chance, oh wait you had the chance, and what happened? THE PEOPLE SAID NO! Now let those with the mandate to rule get on with it.

Jennifer
go back to watching Tallafornia :)

Pathetic. But then what more was I expecting from someone whose default setting is chippy agro..Can’t engage on any meaningful level so resort to snotty little jibes. No wonder the NO side can never produce anyone credible, if you are representative of the intellectual calibre we have nothing to worry about!

Jenifer, if you are the very best that FFg./Labour have to come on here and support the Frightener party, then i think Ireland can sleep well tonight. Your hateful and spiteful personal comments just show the depths that the Government and their supporters are willing to lower themselves to, to try and make the Irish people pass a referenda that is not good for our country. I hope you are proud of yourself.

Now now ,Jennifer !
Don’t be getting yourself all upset , you go ahead and do as you are told and don’t be thinking for yourself .
You are young enough to regret voting yes for a very long time …… pity . But there will be enough decent people who will vote NO to save the day

How very dare you. This us a public forum. I am perfectly entitled to express an opinion. To be dismissed with ‘go watch Tallafonia’ shows not just pettiness- which I am more then entitled to address- but ultimately the intellectual ineptitude of those who rather then engage in the actual debate would stoop to such mindlessness..

”How very dare ”I ?…..Oh I dare . Because I have a conscience . I have a conscience that I can live with , and I follow my conscience . This austerity treaty is wrong . It does not allow for our country to grow . It will protect the wealthy and will destroy the ordinary working people who have always contributed to the health and wealth of our state , but no more ,because the wealth is going to unsecured bond holdres 1.5 billion Euros to AIB two weeks ago , 1.25 Billion unsecured bondholders on Jan 25th AND THE 3.1 BILLION EURO Promissory note on march 31st that was held off for a few years but that was just this years offering ….. ,Go and educate yourself and research your arguement or go back and watch tallafornia and do as Enda says and live to regret it .

Good girl Susie, Jennifer makes a perfectly rational argument and all you can do is attack her, rather than her argument.

The ‘none of the above’ approach you advocate on every story here relating to the Government (and our FF bankruptcy ) is based on the same nonsense-economics as SF and the ULA.

Look at the situation rationally, bring some educated thought to it, consider all sides, and *then* make a comment, about the message, not the messenger

Are you and ‘Jimbo’ the same person ???

I saw nothing rational or sensible about Jennifers comment . In fact all of her comments in my opinion aree irraational and insulting . ,I don’t know Jimbo but I do agree with his sentiment . Is that a problem for you ? And as you have brought up dual personalities ,are you really jennifer ? Go away now .

Dublin Nass, it is extremely evident based on feedback from the likes of Constantin Gorgdiew, Dave McWilliams etc (and even the IMF) that keeping Banking debt and turning it into sovereign debt is the death knell of the Irish economy. Voting yes to further austerity until we have paid off this banking debt is insane. The government wheel out, public servants as independent economists to claim it to be good. Even these same Government sponsored economists are not totally in favor of it. if you read between the lines on their “Yes” stances, any idiot can see that they don’t overwhelmingly support it. You can go on about the Looney left and SF all you want. Any reasonable person can see its a bad deal for the country. So, please back off on the attacks on Susie, and other people like me, who do not swallow the bully boy tactics of FFg/Labour and FF.

DublinInNaas there is a reason real poll results are not reflected in the sentiment ( maybe vitriol is more apt) on The Journal.. Anybody from the majority (as much as others don’t like it, that is the simple fact) who does express a sentient and salient opinion is attacked with such nonsense as “Tallafonia” and “Educate youself” slurs (when any educated person knows you engage people on their point and not on your preconcieved, and wildly incorrect prejudices). Is it any wonder the silent majority stay just that, silent… But then they always say empty vessels make the most noise.. I guess Journal v reality is a case in point

So you deny that Tallafornia is one of your favored tv programes ? It is on your profile .
Any way you have a nice evening .

Wow stalk much? Maybe if you spent more time actually readng peoples posts rather than stalking/ trolling and just generally naysaying all over the place you could address them intelligently. Hell you might even free up some time to actually read the Treaty instead of just disagreeing with it because doing so falls braodly in line with a dogmatic say no to everything philosophy..

Jennifer
My answer is still No .
I refuse to stand idly by and watch my country being sold out . Again Good Night !

Go back to bed

As usual Jimbo, you reply confirms everything we know about you.

The analogy I used about schoolboys playing games is probably very appropriate for you considering the quality of your responses.

This is the grown-ups area.

Ireland is the centre of my world !
I am amazed you even have a vote …
Your disloyalty to your fellow citizens mirrors your leaders traitorous behavior !!

NO!!!

No .