It’s awful that women have to travel abroad for this it makes it seem like a shameful thing to do & it really is no1s business except the individuals. Time for a change in ireland I think.

Oh boy I know I going to be hunted down and slaughtered for this opinion, but we had a referendum on this and it was narrowly defeated.

I’ll state up front I’m anti-abortion. I’ll also state up front that I’m male, so I can afford to be anti-abortion, its something I’ll never have to deal with intimately. While my opinion is my own on the matter, I think its a case for each woman to make her own choice, so while I might disagree with someone having an abortion, I’d still respect their decision.

But I don’t agree with the lets commit the act but no face up to the responsibility. I think that applies equally to men as well as women, be they drunk or sober. Not every one of those pregnancies resulted from alcohol fuelled sex, but they did all result from sex.

I’m not preaching abstinence here, but definitely better education. I’m sure there were a multitude of steps that could have been taken between just before the act, to the waiting room in the UK.

There was a variety of contraception that could be employed precoital, and if that failed or wasn’t used, postcoital, and while there’s the whole religious argument of life at the moment of conception etc. I’m happy enough in myself to believe that within the first 72-120 hours (depending on your choice of morning after pill) there was not much going on soul-wise.

Now there will be the arguments of rape, incest, or that act of a couple with diminished mental capacity, but again were all those reported UK abortions of that ilk? I seriously doubt it.

Proper education about all available options would do a lot more to prevent unwanted pregnancies than legalising abortion in this country. Part of that education needs to include accountability for one’s actions.

I once came across a comment that is the first to my mind every time I hear/read the word ‘abortion’, it said “those who favour abortion never have to worry about it happening to them”. As someone who values the life that was given to them, that’s the whole ethos behind my stance.

P.S. I also don’t believe this is something that the government has any say in. This is a personal issue. To involve the government is merely passing the buck in lieu of taking responsibility for our own actions.

And that should just about drive the final nail in my coffin.

@Oisin re “nothing to do with Government and abortion being a personal issue” – the story here is about women having to travel for abortions.

The reason they have to do so is that successive Governments in Ireland have refused to acknowledge the existence of 1,000s of women who travel abroad each year for an abortion.

This has everything to do with the Government. For whatever reason, 1,000s of Irish women have abortions every year – whatever their religious beliefs or otherwise, it is incredible that the Government will not legislate for this issue.

@Kieran – We live in a Republic, the government (theoretically) can’t make sweeping changes to constitutional law without a referendum.

In 1992, a subsequent referendum was held which established a woman’s right to travel abroad to seek an abortion (13th Amendment) and freedom of speech regarding abortion (14th Amendment). A proposed 12th Amendment, allowing abortion where to do otherwise would risk suicide, was defeated by popular vote.

In 2002, the 25th Amendment attempted to tighten the laws regarding abortion, in other words impose even stricter penalties. It too was defeated by popular vote. The 25th Amendment did not seek to interfere with the right to travel.

Where is it that the government is refusing to acknowledge women traveling to seek abortions. If it wasn’t for government acknowledgment they’d be committing a criminal offence.

As for your shame of your nationality and perception that Ireland’s populous is waiting in eager anticipation for legalised abortion:

April 2010: Millward Browne Lansdowne poll commissioned by the Pro Life Campaign showed that 70% of people were in favour of the constitutional protection of the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows existing practice of intervention to save a mother’s life in accordance with Irish medical ethics. (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pro-lifers-insist-poll-shows-strong-support-for-abortion-ban-117377.html)

December 2010: Millward Browne Lansdowne poll commissioned by the Pro Life Campaign showed that 68% of people were in favour of the constitutional protection of the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows existing practice of intervention to save a mother’s life in accordance with Irish medical ethics. (http://www.prolifecampaign.ie/pages.php?id=163)

February 2011: RED C opinion poll commissioned by the Pro Life Campaign showed that 68% of people were in favour of the constitutional protection of the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows existing practice of intervention to save a mother’s life in accordance with Irish medical ethics. (http://www.prolifecampaign.ie/pages.php?id=172)

Perhaps you can show me the results of the poll carried out by pro-abortion lobbies, in the interest of fairness?

Did I just miss something or was a rather long response of mine removed? Did it cause offence?

Of course, now it reappears – d’oh!

“You’re irresponsible, therefore you should be forced to have a child.” Am I the only one who sees the gaping hole in this logic?

Did you know that sometimes contraception doesn’t work?
Also did you notice that the higher per centage of abortions falls in age groups 20-29. So not exactly “young & dumb”.
Not every pregnancy is caused by someone being irresponsible. It can happen to anyone, be it bad timing or just someone that doesn’t want children.
Personally, I think the people that voted yes to abortion are no the “it will never happen to me” type. It is the “it happened to me and I wish I didn’t have to go abroad” people.

Your ignorance makes your opinion seem uneducated.

@Imogene I think you misunderstood the meaning. “Those who favour abortion never have to worry about it happening to them” means they never have to worry about being aborted, they’re already born.

I’m trying to come to grips with what you just said. You’re blaming Christianity for the results of a referendum? Has it ever occurred to you that regardless of a person’s faith (I’m guessing here that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and most world religions have something to say against abortion) the majority of the electorate who turned out on the day of the referendum have a viewpoint opposite to yours regarding abortion?

I’m not particularly religious, I’m anti-abortion. I think you’ll find that most people who regularly vote (especially the older generations) are the ones who carry referenda and they also are (to date) anti-abortion. Its obviously not as important a topic as you’d think if the pro-abortion people aren’t turning up and voting for it. So there’s the logic and reason for you.

As for health reasons, as far as I am aware where there is legitimate medical cause to abort a pregnancy (other than “I don’t want the baby and I’ll commit suicide if you don’t give me what I want”) then a pregnancy can be aborted.

Oisin, your “not particularly religious”. Yet another fence straddler – you either are or are not. From your comments and view point you so obviously are. Your comments only served to reinforce my points and as another reader posted, that refendum was 9 years ago. I think if we had one now, you could be in for a surprise. The hardcore, blinkered pro-lifers are a dying breed fortunately.

Well first of all thank you for sorting out my religiosity, always good to have someone tell me exactly what and how I believe.

Secondly, I think you missed the results of the three polls I referred to earlier where the majority of people polled (70%, 68% and 68% respectively) were pro life and against abortion.

But please don’t let that sway you in the slightest, seems you’ve already decided how things will be.

I guess high speed internet access, satellite communications, stem cell research, fibre optics, information technology, green energy projects, H1N1, smartphones, wireless technologies and the fact its 2011 all count for nothing?

Its making abortion available that’ll confirm that Ireland is in the 21st Century? And when its available, what will will be the next thing that’ll determine Ireland’s presence in the 21st Century? Legalising cannabis, legalising prostitution?

There are probably many valid reasons to entertain the legalisation of abortion here. But we are in the 21st Century regardless of it legality, and to base an argument for anything on “it’ll bring us into the 21st Century” is childish.

They probably will in the next year or so. It would explain all the polling and usually referenda run on a 10 year cycle.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, some people are not in a position to look after children. But why do they have to leave it to the point they need an abortion. They could have used contraception during sex. To be doubly sure they could use multiple precoital (condom and additional spermicide) and postcoital (morning after pill) contraception. While its not a 100% guarantee, it radically reduces the chances of a pregnancy and therefore any subsequent abortion.

Women don’t get pregnant because the stork magically gives them a baby, there’s a lot of preventable steps along the way that never involve abortion, yet I would guess the majority of women who end up in abortion clinics in the UK probably never bothered to take the earlier preventable steps.

@Oisin – your mask is slipping.

Why not declare at the start that you’re very familiar with the “pro-life” campaign? (An oxymoronic name, if ever I heard one).

You also state “I would guess the majority of women who end up in abortion clinics in the UK probably never bothered to take the earlier preventable steps.” Is there any point in asking you to back up this statement with evidence? This point, in fact, cuts to the very core of the only-uneducated-brazen-hussies-go-for-abortions argument.

I think its admirable that you give me so much credit by jumping to wild conclusions, however Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland) is “very familiar with the pro-life campaign”. I’m not. But the data was available to back up my stance, hence I used it.

Likewise, by way of explanation, the word “guess” is a verb meaning “to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about (something) without having sufficient evidence to support the opinion fully”.

But I base my guess on the fact that if the majority of women arriving at UK clinics took “earlier preventable steps” (adjective: to keep from occurring; avert; hinder) it stands to reason there’d be fewer attending, or don’t you believe that contraception works?

But I notice that while I endeavour to base my arguments on fact, you mostly base yours on rhetoric, as I have yet to see your pro-abortion polling results but read your critique how “pro-life” is oxymoronic (which you may need to look up the definition for, as it doesn’t quite fit your argument).

@Oisin: You say “I have yet to see your pro-abortion polling results”

Read the headline of this article…this is real-life, not merely polling results.

Also, your earlier links were directly to the Pro-Life website, but now you seem to think quoting the same points from Wikipedia (which also link directly to the Pro-Life website) gives some sort of independent sheen to your argument. It doesn’t work like that…

I don’t recall ever calling any woman ‘brazen’, a ‘hussy’, or ‘uneducated’ if she decided to have an abortion. I like you to show me (and the other readers) where exactly you’ve drawn such conclusions about my supposed misogyny. In fact, I believe I stated that I believe its a choice for each individual to make themselves and that I’d respect their decision in either case.

Maybe you’re suffering from displacement as I’ve noticed you seem to be very descriptive with regard to the women.

So I would appreciate it if you’d try not to put words in my mouth, but instead stick to what I’ve actually said. Use facts not rhetoric.

@Oisin – You state, “Maybe you’re suffering from displacement as I’ve noticed you seem to be very descriptive with regard to the women.”

It was only a matter of time, I guess, before you descended to this level of argument.

More fool me for engaging with you.

@Kieran – Good grief, try looking at references 10-14 of the Wikipedia article. They’re the links I used. I love how you wriggle around. First you accuse me of being some secret Pro-Life campaigner, when I openly said I was anti-abortion which implicitly means I’m pro-life even if not a member of a formal organisation. Then when I quite readily admit to where I got the links from you try to paint that as a bad thing too.

You talk about this being real life and not polling results, yet you do so out of context. The polling results were used to demonstrate that contrary to some posters beliefs, pro-life is still the dominant belief currently. Yet you try to portray people’s opinions (which after all is what the polling data is) as somehow not “real life”

The article was based on polling data – the nationality of women using UK clinics. Is that not real life either?

If you want to try to portray my viewpoint as wrong or state your opposing argument, I’m all for it. But do it by building a coherent case, not by nitpicking your way to popularity.

I haven’t descended to any level, I’ve merely pointed out exactly what was said – if you don’t stand by your words, then so be it.

But you can’t throw garbage onto the screen and expect it to be true. In all your rhetoric about my supposed impression of women, “real life”, and how far I’ve descended, you’ve yet to demonstrate one single fact to support your opinion.

Here’s a fact – 4,400 Irish women had an abortion in 2010.

Thousands will do so this year again. And next year, and the year after that too.

This is not about the rights and wrongs of abortion – we’re gone beyond that. Irish women have abortions, yet we pretend that 4,400 women crossed the Irish Sea last year for a nice break in England.

@Kieran – Again with the rhetoric? I don’t pretend anything about them. While I don’t speak for anyone but myself, I would guess that the referendum allowing overseas travel for abortion would suggest the both the government and the populous don’t pretend anything about them either.

One thing I’ve learned from reading the female perspective regarding abortion is that even for those who decide to have one, its an intensely private and sometime traumatic journey. I don’t think those women would want to advertise what they’re planning nor would they really care what two Irishmen (well one Irishman and one who’s ashamed to be Irish) pretend or don’t pretend they’re doing.

Likewise, by your logic, legalising abortion in Ireland would just have all these people you speak on behalf of pretending that women are going to the local doctor’s office or the hospital for a nice relaxing break.

Yes 4,400 women used abortion clinics in the UK in 2010, that’s an absolute fact. I’m not clairvoyant like you, so I’ll refrain from predicting what will happen this year and the next and the next.

The main flaw in your argument is that you posit there are only two possibilities, either a woman has sex, gets pregnant and has a baby, or gets pregnant and has an abortion. You completely ignore, evade, sidestep any other possibility, such as contraceptives.

People can do a lot more to prevent procreation than aborting a living foetus. But none of that seems to matter, your argument appears to be other countries have abortion so we should have it too. Other countries have the death penalty too, want that here?

Northern Ireland has abortion clinics, so why don’t these women go there for the procedure. I would guess its because they didn’t qualify for “exceptional circumstances”. In other words, they weren’t raped, its wasn’t incest, the were mentally capable, it wasn’t life threatening. They just didn’t bother to take precautions either before or after sex and when they realised the mistake they made they didn’t want the responsibility. Simple as that.

I’ll make another guess off topic here. I’m betting like most people you were incredibly ticked off to hear you’d be paying dearly for the mistakes some banking executives made, especially when you weren’t given the choice and had no way to dispute the matter because no one would listen to your single voice. Right?

One clarification, I meant the majority of women attending the UK clinics. Of course there are women, as can be read below, who have a legitimate reasons for the procedure, even though its heartbreaking for them to do so.

I don’t want my comments to tar everyone with the same brush and the last comment made it seem like I was and I apologise if I caused offence by intimating such.

That’s not a very subtle trap you set just then either…

It was subtle enough for me not to see it, care to explain?