Sure a week in Santa Ponza and a couple of new dresses and she’ll be grand, sure.

/saracasm.

By all means have a system of compensation for victims, but it needs to be in conjunction with long prison sentences. Not a means by which to buy your way out of one.

Sarcasm doesn’t really work if you spell out that its sarcasm. Less of the smug comments Daisy.

There is nothing funny about RAPE and how any one can be sarrcastic or make tongue in cheek comments really is not acceptable in my book any way. Maybe a trip to the rape crisis centre in your local area might just change your mind about being funny …..

Brian, is that what your red blooded mates, ogling young wans in the pub told you?

She clearly wasn’t making a joke, her sarcasm was just emphasising the valid point which she made. No amount of money can atone such a horrible act, and to think it can just trivialises rape and is insulting to victims.

I will print my comment again ” there is no justice for rape victims here , when the court can order the rapist to PAY his victim compensation. This is not a good road to go down.”
However when a woman can use sarcasm against rape victims it allows a certain type of male to go one step further …. I had recieved a notification to my email from ”thatsit” which has been removed from this article and comments . It was this comment my reply was aimed at primarily. If I repost thatsits comment it will be removed again !

I think Daisy has to spell it out because there are clearly some very intelligent people that rant on the Journal without fully reading articles or fully comprehending people’s comments.

Erin Go Bragh
Have YOU read the article ? Where was the humor portrayed init ?

Is the journal a cesspool of sensational horse manure and intellectual lunacy (see above and below)?
What next Ireland has worse gang crime than Mexico
False stats are false stats nothing but scaremongering

Eileen pipe down.

@lieslieslies

Who exactly are are you discrediting here ( stating their stats are false): the Dublin rape crisis centre? The central statistics office? The national study into sexual assault and violence?

If you are making a comment to discredit the above agencies ( and stats produced) please provide a credible reference ie evidence to support your rather serious allegation.

I was afraid this would happen. I studied statistics and how to conduct accurate surveys. One thing you can’t do it take different figures collected by asking different questions relating to different crimes carried out in totally disparate environments and attempt to draw a comparison between them as if you we’re comparing like with like.

At best it’s hyperbolic, even if the desired result of drawing attention to the issue is attained. At worst it leads to your point being discredited entirely or starting a moral panic.

Rape is Rape is Rape is rape in any and every jurisdiction
. And LOST LENORE if you are afraid of statistics being
manipulated I am afraid of the actual crime / act of rape
or sexual abuse being lost in a pile of statistics.

Hi lost lenore.

I appreciate your view point regarding statistical comparisons.

However, ‘lies lies lies’ complained in his/ her post about ‘false stats’.
The point i was making above was that I was not at all clear from “lies lies lies” post which stats from the article he/ she had issues with ie whether it was indeed just the comparison made by the DRCC ( between dublin and New Delhi) or whether he/ she also had issues with stats from central statistics office and or the national study on sexual violence (these stats were also included in the article).
I agree with you, one must use stats carefully. However conversely if one is going to argue against a statistic it is important to do so in a credible manner.
For starters it is important to clarify exactly which statistic one disagrees with .

I do think that the stats produced by the central stats office and the national study as quoted in the article are worrying figures in their own right ( without any comparison to india). Are you not concerned yourself about these figures?

@Irene – Just because the likes of Lost Lenore and myself are concerned with the poor data sets being use to draw comparisons, it does not for one second mean that we are in any way unconcerned by the level of rapes and sexual assaults in Dublin or anywhere for that matter. If you ask me, one sex crime is too many! Irene, it is unkind and inappropriate to imply that Lost Lenore is unconecerned by the level of sex crimes in Dublin; your question ” Are you not concerned yourself about these figures?” is pointed and accusatory in its tone.

I have noticed on this thread that there are a number of commenters who are taking the opportunity to launch an attack on people with whom they seem to be in fairly broad agreement. I have reported a number of comments on the thread for their particular vitriol, but none have been removed. People are trading personal insults, using language which is shouty, in particular using capital letters excessively and one commenter in particular is bastardising the words of others and refusing to acknowledge what the original poster has said, but just bleat on with her own broken record.

Can we please stay on topic, show respect for others and get on with some constructive debate?

Eileen, while I’m sure you’ve the best of intentions you’re falling into a quintessential moral panic where every statistic, no matter how spurious, is considered verbatim fact.

All I’m saying is (and I have some qualification do to so) that the comparison is hyperbolic and flawed and this can do more harm than good to addressing a very serious issue. I’m not in the slightest diminishing the crime as is blatantly obvious.

Please, read what I write before going off on a frothing at the mouth rampage.

Hi Irene. Of course, the genuine statistics are highly worrying. My issue is with the flawed comparison and the hyperbole – they’re unnecessary and do more harm than good.

lost lenore
Firstly I do not froth at the mouth and for politeness sake I would appreciate it if you withdrew that comment.

I do not have any ”qualifications’ but I do have practical experience of working both with victims of rape and with rapists. So I too am ‘qualified’ to speak on the subject.
You will I am sure agree that men and women come to conclusions from different angles so to speak. I have already made reference to that in another comment. Of course you know this as that is why they take such care doing polls….
I will agree that the comparisons seem to be more exaggerated between the two countries but it can not be ignored that the level of convicted rape and or sexual abuse here is unacceptable.There are too many loop holes for an alleged rapist to slip through. Not to mention the fear the victims have of their abusers . I have seen it from both sides and it is not a pretty sight. the alleged rapist or even convicted rapist ,victim blaming . That is if they even engage in discussioin. then the victim blaming herself for her dress, behavior, etc. In fact it makes my blood boil.
You are quite right it is a very serious issue and again I will say That it should not get bogged down in statistics
this reduces the seriousness of the act to numbers and letters .. Quite unacceptable.
I will agree also that we agree that it is an unacceptable crime.

PS Conor I have agreed with you in most of what you have said and remarked on it earlier, I too have asked for posts to be removed and my requests ignored.

@eileen If you’re going to have a debate, formulate policy and properly address a serious problem you need facts at your disposal. The more accurate these are the better the problem can be dealt with.

If you attempt to address crime on a purely emotive level you’ve a good chance of doing more harm than good. The comparison between Dublin and New Delhi (which is in the news for all the wrong reasons) creates a certain hyperbolic theme in the public mindset.

We went through several of these in the last century. Rarely are they a substitute for details on where the attacks are happening, what demographic is mainly responsible and how best, with this information at hand to ensure all instances become a thing of the past.

My issue is that the comparison is a bad one and easily discredited by people who might prefer resources were channeled elsewhere and thus is (in my view) not helpful. This is a highly emotive issue and that’s why we’re seeing much of the misdirected abuse from commentators on the topic.

Of course it is a highly emotive issue but then again statistics are so cold and callous and in my opinion you can not have a debate with out both .
My comments are just as relevant as yours . I have not dismissed you or your comments except to say that I would wish that the actual crime of rape does not get lost in statistics.

Steady on conor!

It was not my intention to accuse or imply that lost lenore is unconcerned about level of rape. I was asking for her/his take on other figures presented apart from drcc comparison as he/ she did not make reference to the central stats or national study in his/ her post.

There is a difference between asking a question and making an accusation. A question was asked on my part to gain further clarification on lost lenore’s opinion. However, i apologise if you ( or lost lenore for that matter) picked up on what i asked as being accusational in manner.

@lost lenore

Thanks for clarifying that.

Christine Bohan
Can you please remove the comment above left by ‘Joanne’ telling me to ”pipe down”
This commenter has offered NOTHING to the discussion except this aggressive demand. I have already replied to this and MY polite reply was removed . I reported it privately and it is still left up . Thank You .

I apologize conor. I wouldn’t want you to ‘commit’ suicide over me and Eileen’s tit for tat. Sorry I made you read such horrendous comments. Peace out.

Right, I’m closing the comments on this article now because some of you clearly need a bit of time to cool off. This got unnecessarily personal between a few people and dragged the thread into a really crappy place. I’d ask everyone to bear in mind the comments policy when posting comments so something like this doesn’t happen again.

We very rarely close comment threads so if anyone wants to throw me a mail to discuss this, I’m christine@thejournal.ie.

Thanks,
Christine

The Irish case that you’re all referring to was not one of rape.

Stay on topic boss.

The x case “boss”!

Don’t forget Derek Keating’s comments about mothers of children with multiple fathers …… How many of these mothers were victims of abuse and or rape . I don’t know BUT does he Know more to the point. Rapists are vile individuals who should have NO PLACE in any society

Nah. This isn’t an abortion article. You are trying to discuss abortion with the rape link. Its basically trolling 101. Taking something off topic.

Anyway, tob the other Comment.
I was just curious. Do you honestly believe rehabilitation is impossible? When you say rapists have no place in society the obvious question is what should we do with them.

BTW this isn’t loaded. In really not sure what my views are.

I do apologise Administrator Murphy, please pass on your rule book and I’ll ensure not to make relevant links that you deem irrelevant!

If you want to raise abortion then India’s blind eye approach to sex selective abortion would be a better start. If a society encourages, manipulates and effectively forces women to abort their baby girls it is no great surprise that some Indian men believe that they are so superior that violently raping and murdering a woman in public will not result in consequences.

So Conor Murphy
so anyone who becomes pregnant through Rape are obliged to have that baby ? Is this ok with you ? If it was your sister or daughter are you saying you would be ok with this ?

Lar where did I ever reference India? I referenced third world countries and abortion in the case of rape in India. Aside from that your point IMO is ludicrous!

*ireland even

Nope I’m Pro choice.

Conor
So am I Pro Choice . And rape can not be ignored either in the discussion for abortion or vice versa.

Based on statistics from the UK, less than 1 in 100 rape survivors secures a conviction against their attacker. The conviction rate is about 6% in reported rape cases. You may find this link interesting Mary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/07/rape_a_complex_crime.html

Interesting article, does it say that 57% of women surveyed don’t agree that they were raped? Am I reading it wrong….if the women themselves don’t think it was rape….then who is saying it is. Am I missing something here?

Thank you Conor .

From my reading of the article, it would suggest that 57% of victims of marital rape don’t think that they are entitled to consider what happened to them a crime. It is only comparatively recently that from a legal perspective that marital rape is considered a crime. I imagine that many of the 57% feel that their spouse may have had some sort of right to sex even though they did not give consent. It’s certainly harrowing to read though perhaps not too much of a shock considering how our society and legal system view and treat sex crimes.

When I was younger I was under the impression that rape was when some deranged guy dragged you kicking and screaming down an alleyway and forced himself on you.

But rape is where sex occurs without the explicit consent of both partners. This consent needs to be obtained in EVERY instance. And it needs to be a freely made decision, not one that was coerced by pressure, force or intimidation – whether the rapist is going out with / engaged to / married to the victim or not (or of they’ve been friends a long time). The relationship does not imply consent.

You’d be surprised the amount of people who can’t seem to get their heads around that one.. Some seem to be of the opinion that in a relationship their partners body becomes their personal plaything, a living doll as it were. That attitude is disgusting, but sadly it’s quite common. After all, most rape victims know their attackers.

That makes the person on top open to the accusation to rape everytime
man my gf is in trouble

How exactly?
Unless she ignored you saying “no” it’s not rape.
Unless she threatened, demeaned or intimidated you until you gave in and did it just to make her stop, it’s not rape.

Unless she’s doing that?

continued consent
under law it is not implied so technically she should ask me if I wish to continue repeatedly

Yeah. She should, but if you don’t want to you should tell her.
If you say “not tonight love” or “not again” and are pressured into it anyway against your will then that is rape.

You can tell if you’re being raped. You won’t want to do it and you will feel as though you have been forced. The rapist knows too, like if you are having sex with someone who is crying because you’ve just been screaming insults at them for saying no – it’s safe to assume that’s rape..

Nothing but victim blaming Shanti
Why is it different for me than for you
Is it because I am a man
Contined consent is the key word it is not implied THIS IS THE LAW

How am I victim blaming?

You said your girlfriend would be in trouble – I took this to mean that she was the one on top and the one open to accusations of rape in your comment – so I spoke to you as though you were the victim in this instance.

If you say no, it means no. The other person applying pressure is the one committing rape – how is this victim blaming?

the fact that I did not say no is victim blaming

Eh?
If you ask and they say yeah – then that’s consent.
If its a heat of the moment everything is heading that way and no one tries to stop it – that’s a sort of implied consent.

If you ask and they say no – then they said no. It should stop there.
If its the heat of the moment and it gets to the crux of the situation and they say “stop” or “no” or “I don’t want to” or anything else which may indicate that they do not wish to proceed – it should stop there. Likewise if they try to push you away or off them.

I’m sure you can see the difference?

Very good Points Shanti. well made.
Conor , Mary I agree with you too.
It makes me sad when people can not see what RAPE is .

One tricky thing here is the instances when a person cannot say no – or is afraid to say no. They might go along with it because they’re afraid of what might happen if they don’t. They might not really understand what happened, will feel embarrassed and uncomfortable about it, and blame themselves for not being strong enough to say no.

This is why enthusiastic and constant consent is so important. It’s not too much to just make sure your partner is okay with it, check in with them along the way, and keep in tune with them so you can see if things aren’t going so well. I mean, if you’re not sure then you’re potentially going to rape someone so it’s better to be sure.

Worrying that it seems so many people think it’s okay to pressure someone else into having sex with them – especially in the teenage years. We need to talk about consent a lot more in general and also about what rape actually is because so many people don’t seem to understand.

That’s a very good point Eleen – perhaps sex education should have a big section on consent, and we should have advertising campaigns which highlight the instances which people may be confused about whether or not they are rape.

If the boundaries are made clear for all to see, then there’s no excuse.

Eleen

That is a very good point , very relevant .
The stay safe programe in primary school is a great success . Maybe a similar
project can be done throughout the secondary school years would be very beneficial
for all.

Admittedly the statistics available to us on sex crimes are poor. We can either look at convictions, a statistical minefield considering that in only 6% of cases a conviction is secured. We can look at reported sex crimes, another minefield as they very often go unreported; one academic article I read suggested that only one in ten sex crimes are ever reported by their victims to police.

In any case, the comparison the DRRC make is not necessarily fair as evidence suggests that sex crimes are even more widely under-reported in India than in Western Europe. Based on convictions secured, Sweden looks like the rape capital of the world (it just so happens that convicions are more likely in reported cases, and Swedish women are more likely to report such crimes as the justice system there is somewhat more sympathetic!); yet over half of all women in Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo have been raped according to UN data – yet very, very few convictions are ever secured.

All good points Conor and I agree.

Assuming a functional justice system in a democracy, and with balanced fair legislation in place. Then it is fair to use convictions I think, because the justice system is blind and determines if a crime has taken place. Then a conviction equals a crime, so comparisons across developed democracies convictions would be valid.

It is of course fair to say what about unreported crimes, and then ask why so few convictions etc. I would guess under reporting because the only way to verify whether a rape took place is to investigate everything fairly, and this is daunting to a victim, however it is completely necessary, as we cannot have a skewed system allowing easy false accusation (considering the huge stigma attached to being found guilty) a false conviction of rape would be as big a crime as a rape itself it could be argued.

Few convictions is likely due to how hard it would be to prove, consider one word against another? It would have to rely on evidence, and witnesses, and circumstances, etc etc. but again it is a balance of rights. How could a system where any accusation is assumed to be true work? Innocence until proven guilty is a principle people died to achieve.

How to balance everything is a almost
Impossible problem, as the rights of everyone have to be protected…..wish I had the answers but had to point out the context as I see it.

A rape tends to be something that happens in private. So it will usually come down to the victims word vs the accused.
We have all heard the way these things are investigated. The woman is investigated, any dirt on her from the past will be dug up to discredit her, what she was wearing, whether she has had few or many previous sexual partners.. If she has ever made a mistake – it’s all working in his favour. Even though none of it is relevant to whether or not she gave her consent on THAT occasion.

And often it’s someone you know, sometimes it’s an abusive partner – that makes it even more difficult to prove..
There’s a lot of reasons women don’t report rape, and fear of being ripped apart in order to prove it is a big one. In most cases it’s easier to just try and move on than to be dragged back through it and have insult added to injury when the fact you may have dressed the wrong way or had too many previous sexual partners may well get him off the hook.

Shanti what do you propose that we dont investigate rape allegations
guility upon accusation is it?

I’m sure there’s a way to investigate and prosecute it without attacking the victim. What you were wearing or your sexual history are not of any relevance to whether you said no on the night.

Well texting or meeting the accused on after the rape would be relevant
So would previous allegations not formmay made to police
As would the amout of alcohol consumed by both parties

What about if the rape happened within the context of a relationship?
What if the rapist is a family member?

You don’t always get to escape from your attacker immediately..

Could I ask you to clarify the second line please? I’m sure it’s just typos but Im not sure what you meant.

As for alcohol, well – if someone’s too drunk to consent they are too drunk to consent. You can’t consent to a medical procedure or even a piercing or a tattoo when drunk, so perhaps people should bear that in mind when hooking up with strangers while drunk?
And having sex with people while they are passed out is most definitely rape.

First of all Shanti dont call me a rapist I am not one nor does it add to your argument
All facts are relevant to a case period sorry but the burden of proof does not change because the victim is a woman
The police should always ascertain if pervious partners were accused of rape
Unfortuanately I have first hand experience of a friends being accused despite the fact I was with him all night so please dont tell me that the FACTS are not relevant

Woah – back up there a minute, where exactly did I accuse you of being a rapist? I do not know you, so why on earth would I make that accusation?

As someone who HAS been raped, by more than one person, I didn’t report it.

I was going out with my attacker(s) at the time and the reason I didn’t report it was because at the time I didn’t even realise that it was rape, it was my counsellor who told me it was. And now there is no way to prove it – because it’s just my word against his. I don’t want them making me out to be a slut because I had a few sexual relationships in my 20s, or because I used to wear short skirts when I went out clubbing. I don’t want them saying I’m a liar because I had mental health problems (as a result of sexual abuse).
It doesn’t change the fact that that guy had sex with me when I said no. It doesn’t change the fact that he had sex with me after reducing me to tears, or that I woke up to find him having sex with me when I had said no the night before. But I can’t prove it in a court so there’s NO POINT in reporting it. I just had to deal with it and move on.

I wonder how many other victims feel the same way?

Ok I dont want to be mean ok so lets not get personal here
The accused is innocent until proven gulity
It is impossible to send someone to jail if it is your word v his
Any accusation is very serious
Do you think we should reduce the burden of proof for rape?

No. But what you were wearing and what happened several years ago are not relevant to that incident.

If a man was raped, and the cops said well you’ve slept with 40+ women so we can’t take you seriously – would that be ok? Or – but you work out so obviously you were asking for it..
Would it make any difference to the fact that he was forced to have sex on that occasion?

It’s a very difficult and complex issue and I don’t claim to have all the answers – like I said, I didn’t report mine. But do they tear the attacker apart as much as they do the victim? And exactly how relevant are all the things they dig up?

Once again I firmly believe everybody is innocent until proven guilty
Your claim that the police do not take rape accusations seriously becuase what a victim wears or their sexual history
I doubt it very much

Of course people are innocent until proven guilty. Of course – that’s not actually the way the world works anymore but the concept is sound.

And if you don’t believe that your sexual past etc are not considered then I guess you’ve never spoken to anyone who works in the area? I was told by the counsellor – I could report it but I should be aware that the investigation would involve a lot of delving into my sex life and may not even get as far as an arrest. I was told this so that I could make an informed decision on whether or not to report it. I chose not to.

Shanti
Firstly , you never called anyone a rapist .
I want to wish you well and I admire your forthright honesty . A lot of women may think that they have been raped by their spouse / partner etc BUT are afraid to confront the issue because they will have to face the awfulness and do something about it. Well said Shanti , well said.

Don’t just stop there with your discrimination Peter, why not narrow further and say maybe more black men than white men commit rape.. Or more short men than tall men? Or maybe wake up and realize that rape is a crime against humanity and can be afflicted upon anyone regardless of sex, class, age, creed!!

He said the majority of rapes are male on female. This is – to the best of our knowledge, based upon those reported and those who sought counselling anonymously, a fact.

I fail to see how this is discrimination?
Peter mentioned male on male rape, female on male rape happens – but to a far smaller degree (it’s kind of difficult to force a man to have sex if he doesn’t want to – with the exception of oral sex).
I wish to stress that I am not denying that it happens, I’m sure it does – and most likely it goes unreported too. After all, there’s the assumption that all men want sex and why would they object – which is stupid.

I’m still failing to see the discrimination though – could you please point it out?

John F, I was commenting on the reality of rape. Men rape women. That is an undeniable fact. There is no empirical evidence to support any of the other propositions you have advanced. If there are, please quote them. Do you deny that rape consists in the main of men raping women? It is not discrimination if it is a fact.

It is a quite ridiculous comparison. But the situation remains quite serious all the same.

SMcB
Are you a Male ?

As many of the recent scandals in state and church-run institutions demonstrate, males can also be victims of rape and sexual assault. The limited research into this seems to suggest these crimes go almost entirely unreported.

Firstly Eileen, why is it in any way relevant if the SmcB is male? Men can also be the vicitims of rape and sexual assault. In any case, not all men are pro-rapist!!! It bothers me hugely when all men are tarred with the same brush. As far as I can make out SMcB is referring to this quote fom the article above.

“There were 572 officially reported rapes in New Delhi in 2011,” said O’Malley-Dunlop. “In Dublin last year, the trained volunteer cohort of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre accompanied 270 victims of recent rape AND sexual assault to the Sexual Assault Treatment Unit in the Rotunda Hospital.”

Basically the figures for Dublin refer to all sex crimes referred onto the Rotunda by the DRRC whilst the figures from New Delhi only refer to rapes. It would be interesting, and no doubt shocking to see the figures for total sex crimes reported in New Delhi. It is also important to bear in mind that while sex crimes go hugely under-reported in Ireland, the are even more massively under-reported in India.

Thats right . So why is it there are some types of men and or women who will make light of the issue. People are carrying so much hurt because of sexual assault / abuse and rape both men and women,I think it is time for everyone to learn some empathy. That is all I am saying. So to say compare apples with apples and not oranges is a stupid thing to say . BECAUSE every person reacts differently to trauma and assault. Human Nature .

If people were more empathetic maybe people (both men and women)would feel less isolated and more inclined to report this crime.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/73625_10200369938917613_50614965_n.jpg

Rape is a sexual assault? How many different lines would you like? It’s falls under the same category.

@Conor – Exactly what I’m referring.

*too.

@ Eileen – I’m making light of the issue? What a ridiculous set of comments. Cop yourself on.

Yes, but not all sexual assaults are rape, that is the point that is being made.

Shame on the red thumb brigade… You do not even have the courage of your own convictions to say why you disagree with me. Sad .

@ Eileen, the red thumbs are certainly puzzling. Many red thumbers prefer the anonymity of the red thumb and lack of explanation.

The sad fact is that rape and sexual assault are predominantly crimes by men against women. It is something that men need to think about.

Quite frankly, on this topic, the views of women should and must carry more weight than those of men.

No all people even men deserve the right to innocent until proven guility
It is a well known fact that organisations use misleading questions in survey to find the stat that want

Here are some links
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-01-27/opinions/35441276_1_sexual-violence-assaults-cdc

Thanks Peter Richardson
Obviously people do not like me …
Let them red thumb away . At least I am not afraid to speak.
I thank you for your supporting comment .

@ Eileen, I suspect that the hostility of many of the opponents of your reasonable views are due to shame, unease and confusion over this horrendous crime.

It is too easy to minimise the severity of the problem by trying to rely on convictions when the conviction rate is so low and when there is massive under reporting of this crime. Criminal trials are conducted in an adversarial manner and if there is the slightest doubt, often raised by the previous history of the victim, the perpetrator will be found legally innocent. I question many of the rules of criminal procedure in a rape trial. They are too heavily weighed against the victim and in favour of the accused perpetrator.

It is natural that many men and even some women do not wish to be reminded of the true enormity of this problem.

To add insult to injury, State funding of the Rape Crisis Centres has been greatly cut back. The victims of this horrendous crime, largely female, need more support, not less.

Every single instance of rape is a terrible, vicious and horrendous experience, often with permanent consequences. In the face of such horror, it is easier to talk about inadequate statistics. One rape is a rape too many. Men need to be more assertive and forceful in their condemnation of rape and not be evasive by silly quibbling.

You have bravely and decisively defended the legitimate interests of women. That should be admired by and not criticised by those who oppose rape.